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All Posts by Vorthanion

All Posts by Vorthanion

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The money barrier to entry ensures they get more spenders in the game and fewer freeloaders.
Originally posted by Viper482
Originally posted by JohnP0100

Some days you want to go to the Sports Bar, drink beer with your friends and talk or watch 'Sports' (Football / Baseball / Basketball / whatever).

Some days you'd rather have a gathering at your place with the BBQ at the backyard and your TV on with whatever Sports.

Some days you'd rather watch the game in private with your family.

Gasp! It is as if people have a CHOICE now and they can play to their preference!

You like forced grouping? Play games that does that.

You like solo-focused gameplay? Play games that does that.

The only 'problem' I see is your insistence that people like what you like and play games that you like.


Funny, back in the day we had this thing called a single player game for those moments. Your logic takes the MM out of MMO.

Not only do today's MMO's cater to single player minded people more than anything, but they are designed for the single player solo guy who obviously feels too lonely playing single player games, so he does it in an MMO where he can see other people doing the same thing he is while he reads trolls chat for entertainment.

I remember back in the day when games would give group bonuses for experience. Omg, how crazy! To actually encourage group play and socializing in an MMO!! But nah, the games have not changed, it is all just an illusion caused by us wearing these rose colored glasses of nostalgia.

/rant off

Solo play is not even remotely the same as single play on so many levels.  I get tired of people stereotyping this issue with false analogies.

I think they are mistaken in calling it a shift, but rather a burgeoning new market of players.  Do they really believe that gamers are unable to enjoy different genres of games, so much so that it's required to homogenize or even stop catering to one or the other?  How simple minded and narrow that line of thinking is.

Originally posted by Amjoco
Originally posted by Shodanas
Originally posted by crimzonxskyz

Wildstar with all of its little flaws is such a great game.. and the only potential it is lacking is the support of a fan base that would throttle this game into some really great online experiences for people...


I see a quality game thats way ahead of its time as far as progression mmorpg experiences go... this game has so much potential and the only thing holding it back is a loyal fan base of players...


People are so easily deterred by the negative opinions of others they often miss out on great opportunities that are right in their face.


This game blows WoWs D$%# out of the %@^!ing Water people... wtf is WRONG WITH YOU GOSH ( Face palm ) lol .. Ive played wow since vanilla and I just cant understand how people are still sold on that mindless grind for expired glory... - meaning everytime you think you've attained something or achieved something great something even GREATER comes out and yet again you are left doing the SAME repetitive bee worker job.


Rant over


PS - NCSOFT : Dont give up on this game yet...

Typical white knight approach, blame the players not the game or the developer. 

When a game fails this hard like WS did it's because of the game itself NOT the players. This comes from someone who beta-tested WS with a guild for 6 months, raids included. Who bought the expensive collectors edition, raided Genetic Archives and 4 months into release just had enough and quited allong with some thousand others. 

Personally I don't think thats what he means. Carbine has made some great changes and without people coming back to check it out they won't ever know. The game failed hard because the end game was to rigorous and raiding was almost impossible to get into. Many positive things have been adjusted in the title and he is just asking for other players to check it out. :)

The game was hurting badly long before most had even gotten to the raiding content.  The leveling game was painfully boring, linear and carpal tunnel inducing.

Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Archlyte
Originally posted by Aelious
I'd argue action combat is MORE RPG than tab. You have a more active role controlling your character.

I would argue that neither is "more RPG," because combat in these games is really the least RP part of the experience. When combat starts it becomes a different animal, and bears really no resemblance to RP situations as I would define them. If you mean RPG as in Final Fantasy or something like that then the other guy is right, and action is not RPG.

I think action combat has it's own merits, but I have never seen it be something that bolsters the immersion except maybe in Age of Conan.


If by "RPG" we're talking about playing the role of another character I would think that any mechanic that gives you more control over said character you're supposed to be playing would be better.  I don't just see RP as a means of talking or emoting, it's the whole enchilada (though talk/emote is a big part).  This is my view of course.  My eventual want is to have VR helms and motions controllers so I have 100% control over my online avatar.  I have a ways to wait though so in the meantime reticle combat is the closest thing.


Aside from that aspect I just can't play UI Simulator anymore, it's just boring.  I can get the same type of gameplay from mobile game these days and it actually takes away another dimension of difficulty.  Once spells/abilities are auto-locked the speed and movement of a mob becomes a nonfactor.  I'd rather have reticle targeting for that added difficulty (mobs can still scale HP/Armor regardless) and a real need for CC.

When I play an RPG, I want it to be about the character, not me.  I lose that immersion factor if I'm focusing too much on motor reflexes, number crunching and teamspeak.

Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You're most likely not a "filthy degenerate", but your post doesn't make any sense, since all the people saying they would be ready to pay more insisted on the high quality of the game and/or the services offered for the price.
 Silly exagerations don't make an argument.

In what way is such a cost realistic in value though? It seems a silly exaggeration in and of itself to me.

It seems to me the up front cost to build such a game would be astronomical. Even then there is no guarantee that it could deliver a high quality experience out of the box. A single bug or glitch could spell doom because the consumers feel cheated. At more then twice what they paid for their last MMO and it's not a complete rock solid game. 

I think the problem with costs is the same as in the insurance and medical industries.  They've gone batshit crazy with little to no regulation or standardization of wages or controlling investor expectations which in turn creates an industry that will collapse on itself if the market doesn't keep funneling stupid amounts of money to them for each game released.

Like any other business that has gone greedy, they want to maximize profits for the least amount of effort.  The MMO genre no longer focuses on long term income and have embraced the cash grab paradigm.
Originally posted by Kaladin
Originally posted by hallucigenocide
the game runs like crap on many rigs, the combat is not what many would consider to be fun & they set out to attract a very small playerbase(hardcore) so you'll never see a large playerbase in there. it's as simple as that. and then there's tons of other stuff that could be mentioned but that would be overkill.

The AMD problem is still a thing, IF the steps to fix it are not taken.  In every case, the %AppData% folder needs to be cleared.  After that, it is smooth sailing.  Yes, it is silly to HAVE to do that, but it isn't hard, and if the game is fun for you otherwise, you would take the 2 minutes to do this.


It's true, Action Combat is decidedly NOT what mmorpg fans want in massive numbers.  But there is a large enough niche that it is worthwhile for people who like to have that little bit of extra skill to their combat.


They did set out to attract the hardcore playerbase with their Raidz Dev Speak video, in all other areas, the game is not hardcore.  That is just what the mmorpg community picked up on and ran with as the rest of the game also being for the hardcore.  I'm not sure how many more times people with actual experience with the game need to say this.

Are you forgetting all of the obnoxious comments from the developers pre-release that this was not a game for casuals?  They were derisive about it and paid the price.  Months after release they scrambled to offer more casual content, but the damage was done.

You seem to forget that a huge number of gamers tried this game and left.  It had little or nothing to do with word of mouth.  Once bitten, twice shy.  People value their money and time and like any product on the market, if it fails initially, it's a herculean effort to recover, if at all.
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Hrimnir

This is it on the nail head.  Its all about making money hand over fist, and you don't alienate a large group of people (the unskilled more "casual" types) by making the game "hard" or unforgiving.

Just put in a difficulty slider and hard core option. Problem solved.

D3 is one of the most difficult game if you play HC greater rifts ... and yet it sold 15M+. The trick is to have options. Everyone needs a different level of challenge.


D3 is not an MMO.  The multiplayer is 4 players maximum and basically just scales the numbers.


Close enough. Essentially the gameplay is no different than instanced dungeons of 4.

And while it scales the numbers .. for everyone who has end game gear, some find good strategy & builds to run GR 59 and some can never go beyond 50.

And whether D3 does it by scaling the numbers or other mean is irrelevant .. it is hard. And it works.


Close enough, huh.  You might as well argue with Blizzard who themselves call it a multiplayer action adventure game and NOT a MMORPG.  I've noticed your tendency to set yourself as the "authority" on game labels.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by f0dell54
Originally posted by Reklaw
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Reklaw
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard


What you call "skill" was mostly a matter of "time".

I would argue that having patience is a


And why would anyone need patience to play games? We are talking about entertainment, not real world important stuff.

I will be the first to admit .. when it comes to entertainment, patience has little value. It does not make things more fun .. at least not for me.

Well that might be so but I wasn't really talking that you need patience to have fun now did I.



No, you just said something to say something. It had no relevance just like your last comment. You shouldn't need patience in order to enjoy yourself in a game. This isn't 1999 and genre has evolved past me grind 200 mobs and sitting for 5 minutes waiting to regenerate health.

There is also a distinct difference between time spent in game in order to progress and having patience.


and the point is that games need to be fun to its audience right from the start, with nothing (like down-time) to sit in between.

That downtime is important to some gamers who use it as an opportunity to socialize.  Not everyone is interested in MMORPGs that are focused on never-ending spastic, bunny hopping twitch combat.

Originally posted by reeereee
Originally posted by Foomerang

Their 3 MMOs made a combined total of 200 million dollars last year. It looks like more than half of that came from FFXIV. That falls in line with 700k-800k subs plus whatever the cash shop brought in. They are in a prime spot for this expansion to be a huge success.
Bottom line is that we will continue to see the quality we've come to enjoy.

To be honest I was expecting it to be double that amount of subscribers given how much content they're getting. 


Yoshi with a vastly more graphically demanding game is pushing out more content than WoW with around a tenth the revenue.  Absolutely hilarious.

A profit is still a profit, I swear, some of you can never be happy unless you have it all.

It would seem that some people think the only skills worthy of note are motor skills.  Personally, I much prefer games that test my mental skills.  Maybe the recent focus on motor skills in MMORPG gaming is a result of failed responses from the masses in regards to any kind of mental challenge.


The trend I've noticed is that the faster you speed up the gameplay, the less challenging the content becomes and the greater focus that goes into the combat mechanics themselves.  I call it the "Whackamole Effect".

Originally posted by sbfbeef

Heres the thing, Yes monks and Mages have an advantage.  Its not as game breaking as people make it out to be.  Here's the honest truth.  Enjoy going back to the game you played when you were a kid.  Don't worry about what everyone else is doing.  EQ was all about the journey to max level.


I played EQ from Kunark till PoP.  I never raided once.  I never camped the best of the best spawns. You don't need the best gear in the game to enjoy it!.   I loved this game and never raided a single dragon. 

Heres something I don't see anyone mention,  TWINKING!!!!! Making ALTS in this game is like none other.  If you can afford to buy some gear for him or her.  Twinking alts was almost more fun then leveling my main.

For all of you people who don't know what a Twink is, or the term.... Its buying high end gear for your new character.  One of the GREAT things about everquest was that almost all the gear that you find can be traded.  There are very few items that end up BoP.   You can trade/use/sell the same BP of awesomeness over and over and over.

If you cant tell, im pumped to play again!  When the server launches ill give out my character names (don't want it taken).  Id love to group up with some of you fine folks

Not anymore, level recommended weapons no longer give you max damage despite the modified lower number, including bows.  Lack of decent low level armor will also mean a lot more deaths, since all premium armor pieces are marked as level required, not recommended.  The exception will be things like the fungi tunic, but that is two expansions away  : )  It won't be a true experience, but it won't be a walk in the park either, except for the hardcore power gamers of course.

Originally posted by Toladin
Does anyone know if the original race / class xp penalties will be enforced ?

Not sure about the penalties, but the bonuses will be there for rogue, warrior and Halfling.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kilrain

I don't think the old MMO crowd has grown out of the genre, I think the developers are trying so hard to lure larger player bases that they've changed the games their making.

and they are successful. LoL is a huge success. WoT is a big success. Hearthstone is a big success.

I think devs are changing the games so much that even the term MMO is changing. The "old" genre is no longer popular. Either abandon the genre, or change it to survive.

Sure, indie can hold onto the old design .. and hopefully can put together something with a small budget. But big AAA companies are not going to play that game (pun intended).

Yes, making money on the new crowd while alienating the crowd that got them here in the first place.  You know, the one that made them so much money that every company was scrambling to get on the MMO gravy train.  The new crowd may be larger, but the old one is large enough to call these companies stupid for leaving us behind.

That sounds more like sour grapes than anything else. If the old one is so big ... why is there only small KS indie devs trying to get back into it?

What is "stupid" is to think that you have more market power than you actually have.

You wish it was sour grapes.  Unfortunately, you cannot look beyond your own niche to see all the others around you.  Everquest I and II still make money.  World of Warcraft is still the big honcho and it's old school.  Lineage I & II, Aion, FFXIV....etc are all still making money and combined with all of the other "old school" games out there it's pretty obvious we are still a market to be reckoned with.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vorthanion

The problem is that they now want to chase the FPS and RTS gamers and even going so far as to label games MMORPGs when they are bastardized versions of them at best.  By all means, make those MMOFPS and MMORTS, but for goodness sakes, make us those MMORPGs that are worthy of the name, worthy of the audience and worthy of our money and time.


What is the big deal? It is just a name ... a label. It is worthy of "the name", in the eye of the devs, if it makes money.

In fact, there *are* games labelled as MMOFPS .. like Defiance.

You might like to fudge the MMO part, like you always do in your posts, but you cannot say there is no real difference between a FPS, RTS and RPG.  Too many of the new MMORPG games have barely any RPG to them as they get converted  more and more to shallow generic arcade gameplay with less and less focus on story, adventure and puzzles and focus more and more on combat and motor reflexes.

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Consuetudo

I will apply Oswald Spengler's cultural analysis to MMORPGs. 

At the beginning, there was a naive MMORPG culture fresh in its prime. There was a uniformity between MMO players, and most were confined within about 3-4 games. This was all very natural, and the current, or the core essence that flows through the games, was strong. 

However, this MMORPG cultural prime lasted for an extremely limited time, and now we have entered Hellenism: dozens of games will spring up, all lacking that current or core essence which once flowed through the genre. The players have become experts: rather than embracing the living present and experiencing excellent games, we reflect on what has already past. I'm sure that during the time when Ultima Online and vanilla WoW were things, nobody was speculating on MMORPG mechanics or conceiving of what makes a great game: people at that time played the great games. And it does not matter if those games appear as primitive now, what matters is that in their present, when those games were on the table, they were legitimately enjoyed without any analysis required. People did not have to ask themselves "what is so fun about what I am playing? What makes it so great?" They did not tell themselves "what I want from an MMO is . . . "  --no! They just played them because they were there. The greatness of the MMORPG was learned from these games. The idea of the greatness of the MMORPG is not a priori knowledge, but it was gained through playing a great MMORPG. 

However, that fire simply died. For whatever reason, the current that flowed through the genre simply ceased flowing. Developers, formerly innovative, now for the first time looked backward for their ideas. They deliberated upon what it takes to make a great MMORPG, and therefore the innovation ceased to be. What was presented was merely what had already occurred. We were disillusioned, as within us, that current still existed. The success of an MMORPG revolves around the expectation of the playerbase being met by the developer, and the developer fell short: the demands of the player eclipsed what the developer was willing to provide. 

Thus, the MMORPG culture died. Romanticism and realism emerge, and the unifying force that seemed to be a so necessary, and which now a so absent, aspect of MMORPGs became lost. And now, as if scholars, we look back, and recount what it was that made those MMORPGs so great. Surely, we can never have another great MMORPG again--the current that flowed through the genre has passed. We can have revivals, we can have something that seems inspirational in its brief period of time, but these are just flukes: the vital current has evaporated. 

The fact that we now engage in these intense debates about petty mechanical concerns, that we provide our unfulfilled romantic longings, only articulates the fact that we are dealing with a dead construct. MMORPGs are a thing that happened, and all we can muster now are revivals of the MMORPG. 


I agree with your first paragraph - but disagree that "the vital current has evaporated" 

The genre evolved - into MMOs and MOBAs having the "vital current".

If you consider that MMORPGs are just a part of "online games" - you'll see that the vital current is bigger than ever - it's just that majority of players today have no interest in playing games gen1 games like vanilla EQ1 or even vanilla WoW.

The real issue is this - people look at "MMORPGs" as something exclusive - instead of seeing them as what they really are - just a brick in the wall of "online games".


The problem is that they now want to chase the FPS and RTS gamers and even going so far as to label games MMORPGs when they are bastardized versions of them at best.  By all means, make those MMOFPS and MMORTS, but for goodness sakes, make us those MMORPGs that are worthy of the name, worthy of the audience and worthy of our money and time.


I don't get it, companies are easily able to cater to different audiences by making varieties of single player games, why not apply that logic by making varieties of MMOs instead of dropping one audience for another.  In other words, the bandwagoning that runs rampant in this genre is getting really old.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kilrain

I don't think the old MMO crowd has grown out of the genre, I think the developers are trying so hard to lure larger player bases that they've changed the games their making.

and they are successful. LoL is a huge success. WoT is a big success. Hearthstone is a big success.

I think devs are changing the games so much that even the term MMO is changing. The "old" genre is no longer popular. Either abandon the genre, or change it to survive.

Sure, indie can hold onto the old design .. and hopefully can put together something with a small budget. But big AAA companies are not going to play that game (pun intended).

Yes, making money on the new crowd while alienating the crowd that got them here in the first place.  You know, the one that made them so much money that every company was scrambling to get on the MMO gravy train.  The new crowd may be larger, but the old one is large enough to call these companies stupid for leaving us behind.

I blame it on the F2P era, where games are designed first to be money traps with some if any fun tacked on and MMORPGs being turned into shallow arcade games.
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