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All Posts by Gardavsshade

All Posts by Gardavsshade

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Originally posted by MisterZebub
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by MisterZebub
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by MisterZebub
Originally posted by Konfess
Originally posted by Horusra
hopefully another ex-employee that can only get a job at McDonalds from now on.

Why, Hopefully?  What has he done to not deserve to work again in game development?

He spilled the beans. Horusra is obviously a Hobbit and wasting good food is a dreadful sin to the furry footed, pudgy little guys.

In other news, hey guess what, working for a business isn't always fun and games and sometimes your bosses seem to have their heads wedged firmly up their rectums. I'm not sure why this is shocking news simply because this guy happens to be talking about an online gaming company. Buy outs, sell outs, mergers, management infighting, staff rivalry, people in positions of power they don't actually deserve, throwing money at problems in the vague hope that this will make them magically go away rather that treating the core problem, E.G. idiots running the company into the ground, etc. These are problems every company faces. Why people seem to think creating and maintaining an online game should be a paradise filled with glitter farting unicorns and Neverland innocence is beyond me. At the end of the day its a job, a business venture, and for many a headache. If it was fun it wouldn't be called work.

I don't think anyone thinks what you put down.

What I do think is that, even though "work is work" and sometimes management isn't that great or employees might not pull their weight, or that not every decision is a good one, they (we) hope that we will be at a good company and be successful.

It's sad to see people pour in their all, even though we are all flawed, and not be successful. And for the players it's more sad as they just want to be part of something that is good and fun and successful.

I'm sorry but I disagree that "no one" thinks what I wrote. I've seen way to many complaints that games are an art form and therefore should be sacrosanct from any of the bullshit a business has to put up with.

Daily I see people here carping about quality quality quality, but I've yet to hear any of them mention anything about costs, budget, expenses, infrastructure. Its like these gamers seem to think the MMO studio is akin to the magical realms they create, instead of what they are, a job. A job where the profit margin is the yardstick on which everything else they do is measured.

I do however agree that most MMORPG gamers want a world where they can frolic and tune out the real world for awhile. And that with the exception of a few assholes, most people don't like to see people put effort into something only to fail. I don't see anything wrong with that, but I do take exception to those players who seem to think their entertainment comes without cost. And the brunt of that cost falls upon the shoulders of the people who create and fund that venture. Its not fair to simply discount such a thing because players want to forget about the man behind the curtain and only enjoy the marvelous whizbangs the spectacle of the wizard brings them.


Without major investment money the vast majority of MMORPGs would never have gotten made. Hate the suits all you want but without funding - no games.

The harsh reality is that video game studios are a business first and foremost whose goals are to be profitable and see their employees earn steady paychecks - this is paramount in every business.

The fact that game studios employ creative folks that often think and work outside of standard business constraints is a challange in itself when there are hard deadlines to meet and strict bottom line to adhere to.

Making MMOs is not easy, its not glamorous and its usually an extreme financial risk.



Yeah I think we both see eye to eye on this. Its unfortunate that more gamers can't see both sides of the issue. The one area we seem to differ is I'm far more extreme on my criticism over the nature of monetization. My reason is that I feel there is a major difference between making a healthy profit and just engaging in profiteering. And I feel that some gaming companies have skated dangerously close to thin ice in recent months.

If I may intrude into this discussion...

I may be one of those people who have gotten on your nerves with my comments in the past about MMO Corps caring more about profits more than People.

However I would like to point out for the record that the jest of my point of view matches your own... that " I feel there is a major difference between making a healthy profit and just engaging in profiteering". That is my stance as well even though I don't only communicate it as clearly and concisely as you have.

I have spent years considering this and other related issues in the MMO Industry and Society as whole and I realized that all niche "Art Form" endeavors ALWAYS steer eventually towards "engaging in profiteering" because our World is built on Capitalism as it's engine of Economy. Capitalism is an extreme though few may realize it, and it is this extreme form of economic system (as compared to other economic systems of the past) that causes most of the problems and discontent some of us complain about so much. Many may be like I am and may actually be complaining more about the economic system while they are complaining about a product affected by the economic system in a manner we disagree with.

I realized anything decent or cool or awesome in Art or Entertainment, anything actually, we humans create will always follow the path of the MMO genre in how it ages and matures as long as Capitalism is our chosen economic system. The real problem isn't the MMO genre, or the People that make it their Profession and Life, it is the system we chose for our economy. It is how our chosen economic system affects everything from the ground up.

If it wasn't for countless People, MMO Professionals, and some Players as well, all MMOs would be nothing but greedy profiteering games from launch. I am glad some People try to do something different, something more "Art" full while developing MMOs. I am glad there are some who strive to listen to the Creative voice rather than the Greedy voice. I thank all of you who have.

It's too bad we can't get rid of Capitalism as our economic system, and chose another system... but the odds are better for an ELE killing off all of humanity than for Capitalism to die. I honestly believe MMOs would prosper better (in terms of quality and customer satisfaction) under other economic systems, but that is almost impossible so there is little point in discussing that idea (and this forum wouldn't be the right place anyways for such a discussion). All we can do now is try to live with the beast.

As for the original post and Aylwen's revelations, much of this I either knew or had already guessed. I am glad Aylwen chose to come forth with this. In this world filled with too may secrets it's refreshing to learn more about what really happens in this genre.



SPAM Forum « General Discussion
3/03/15 5:40:34 PM
test sig
Originally posted by greenreen


The whales are experiencing satiation. That leads to dismissal of the product or less fulfillment until they leave completely to chase a better high. In truth OP, you don't have to shun the whales, they are already showing signs of becoming satiated all on their own and expectant of greater rewards at times because they realize that they are the only cog in the machine that matters. They are beginning to assert their buying power. Soon they'll wrangle in the ability to have players act as their virtual slave for a portion of the hours they are online with all goods being sent to the master of the realm like any kingship in any other land declares lol

The part where "Soon they'll wrangle in the ability to have players act as their virtual slave for a portion of the hours they are online with all goods being sent to the master of the realm like any kingship in any other land declares lol" is already happening in games like Wurm Online, the Lead Dev Rolf even thinks it's an acceptable gameplay style in MMOs. Whales there definitely do blow spray about.


needless to say I do not agree with him. Some here might find that info helpful though.


@Sovrath... let's just say the idea of maximum gametime/day has crossed my mind. That's been bouncing around in the cobwebs for a decade or more.

Originally posted by Blueliner
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Blueliner
actually no, I don't support them indefinitely, I help them out when they were having a rough month or so. Of course it helps they aren't people complaining that us evil whales are ruining their lives.

I liked your post. I'm not really a whale, but I have a pretty good job right now and I spend money supporting the games I play while I'm playing them. I play a lot of games and rotate through some, but while I'm playing I'm not afraid to spend a little money now.

I'm sort of the middle in between a non-spender and a whale. I usually subscribe for 3 months if there is a hybrid option and then I buy around $40 - $60 in game cash and spend that on stuff (unlocking account perks, cosmetics, mounts, pets, companions, etc). If a game doesn't have a sub then I usually buy $50 in game cash at the start (or an equivalent DLC pack) and then another $50 a month or two down the road.

I don't mind that people spend more than I do, or less. I get what I pay for and I like that I don't have to spend more if I don't want to. I also respect that you're generous enough to help out others and add to their gaming experience when you can. Your post is the opposite of those selfish entitled posts where people feel you should pay and play their way.

Thank you. Even though cash shop items are not NEEDED to play, these entitlement folks think they deserve to have everything people who actually spend money on their hobby have, even if its just some cosmetic non stat armor. somehow by not having that they are "falling behind those evil people who have extra RL cash"

My opinion: No Player should ever be able to equip their character with cosmetic gear that was not earned through normal game play within the context of playing the MMO.

What you advocate is the "right" to treat a MMO as a cheap whore. I see nothing noble about that line of thinking. How we spend money in western society and how we wish to be seen spending money by others is perverse.

MMOs when they began were a place where all Players could come to play by paying the exact same price. No expressions of wealth of privilege, all Players that wished to set themselves apart did so through gameplay itself, within the game, within the contest of the game. Some of us want MMOs to go back to this way of doing things as we see it as superior to how it is now.

Players that wish to pay nothing can just . not . play. Subscription price of $15.00 has not kept up with cost of living and inflation and should be raised accordingly and I would gladly pay it. $30 or even $45.00 is not out of the question for the entertainment value we get from MMOs. MMO Publishers instead of creating F2P should have just raised prices as all business do when costs go up.

I make enough in real life to be a Whale but I remain opposed to spending more money that I think everyone should if everyone did pay. I respect the fact that you think you should be able to spend as much as you want. I ask you to remember that some of us consider that practice in MMOs as objectionable. it's not about wealth envy, it's about the uneven playing field created in a game, any game, when wealth is allowed to trump all.

I also see the desire to be able to spend as much in a game as I wish to as it's own form of entitlement. We each have much money to spend in MMO gaming, but we each see MMO gaming in completely different ways.


Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Uproar

I agree I wasn't talking about blues... which I hear are very very common in the MMO sea.

How in the world do you compete with that?  It's just like campaign financing, except no laws will ever even be bantered about around this concern.  I think terms limits too will fail here.

So what is the answer?  It will be the death of this genre for the masses.

So to me this brings me back to the indie industry -- except the issue there is a I think MMOS need to large a population to really persevere for the social needs in us old schoolers.

Do we really need multiple "MMOs aren't made for me so the industry must be dying" threads?

He's not saying the Industry is dying, he is saying the Industry is chasing the whales like "a Sailor on shore leave" and the rest of us feel ignored.... and in a genre that is "supposed" to make everyone feel like they have the same chance it's not hard to miss the fact that the opposite is what is really true.


The Industry is most certainly not dying, and the Whales love this new Sea because they are being hand fed, but the rest of us are getting choked out by the crap they leave in their wake.

Originally posted by nolf
Originally posted by Gardavsshade
Originally posted by Boneserino

Who the hell is Andryah and why do we care?  I certainly wasn't playing because of he/she and I certainly wouldn't be quitting either.


So exactly what is the relevance of this " another player leaving and giving a big long story" post?

I know Andryah... so to speak... from the SWTOR forums and an argument I had with Andryah was the reason I left Ebon Hawke server.

I will neither speak good or ill of Andryah or of their OP on the SWTOR forums.... I will just say "see you on down the road" and wish them well. I can do that for an adversary, because even if I disagreed with them they will be remembered. That in itself is an accomplishment in my book.

Interesting reply.  Just for the fun of it....


My comments were my way of acting like a political twit towards Andyah and giving her not even the tiniest bit of satisfaction she would have gained if I had gone off on her and ranted. IMO she doesn't deserve even that. Happy now that you know my true feelings towards this individual? I gave the hint about my true feelings when I mentioned my argument with her. Being completely honest usually results in "Bad Form" which is partly what I was trying to avoid. Now I've stepped it it.

I never pretend to have any rational thoughts according to what the Masses consider "rational". I am an Aspi. My thoughts are going to seem idiotic to NTs like you of course. It is predictable some would not understand me. Your thoughts seem incoherent  to me so we are even.

And God and I are still having a feud and the status of my 'ticket" is still in question... but he has and will have mercy on my soul or he wouldn't have put up with all of my **** so far.

/sarcasm and poorly skilled attempt at humor off


If everyone in the room is dumber for listening to me than they got much bigger problems than I do, and I don't think that it the case at all. There are many intelligent people that frequent these forums and I have respect for many of them, even the ones I disagree with the most and I acknowledge their intelligence compared to my own. I seriously doubt my participation on these forums has led anyone to an acute or even chronic case of stupidity. (not sarcasm)


Oh and you can keep those points you speak of. I don't post here to rack up "Points".... but you obviously do and you got under my skin good this morning so enjoy your Points. ;)

Tempting Invite, ... very tempting... but for me and my location within the interweb (east coast) the Harbinger Server is a NOGO. I get more lag on that server than even connecting to EU.

Good luck on the recruitment drive. :)

Originally posted by DMKano

It's simple.

MMORPGs started as P2P games - players got used to that.

Things changed - P2P is dead now and majority of games are F2P.


People HATE change especially when they perceive it as negative - because they are not looking at the big picture, and are only focusing on how it affects *THEM* and stop right there.


Reality - without cash shops - MMORPG industry would be dead right now, only a few games would remain and a few studios would be running.

The vast majority of MMO devs would be out of work and not doing what they love. Without funds, and devs, the MMO industry would not grow - it would have died about 5-6 years ago.

Think about that for a minute.


Sometimes the things we dislike personally are the right thing in the big scheme of things.


Careful what you wish, you may regret it



People has differing views on who gets to decide what the "big scheme of things" is supposed to look like and be.

Originally posted by Boneserino

Who the hell is Andryah and why do we care?  I certainly wasn't playing because of he/she and I certainly wouldn't be quitting either.


So exactly what is the relevance of this " another player leaving and giving a big long story" post?

I know Andryah... so to speak... from the SWTOR forums and an argument I had with Andryah was the reason I left Ebon Hawke server.

I will neither speak good or ill of Andryah or of their OP on the SWTOR forums.... I will just say "see you on down the road" and wish them well. I can do that for an adversary, because even if I disagreed with them they will be remembered. That in itself is an accomplishment in my book.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

How would some of you feel about the idea of levels not being displayed to others. So no way for others to tell what level you are.


would that make levels less rewarding to you?

No problem with me at all. In fact I have never really thought our character's level being displayed was necessary or even beneficial.

So go for it. If you are developing a MMO or you know/work for someone who is developing a MMO you tell them that you found at least one Player that would be cool with no level displayed on characters.

My leveling would be just as rewarding... and when other players ask me what level I was I would actually be proud and glad to tell them.


(While we are on the subject... I also am opposed to everyone in a MMO being able to inspect other characters without permission. I agree with the Inspect feature itself, just disagree that it is automatically allowed like in some MMOs. I guess you can say that I believe it is better for a MMO community to have to make an effort to get to know others rather than have all the info about others handed to them on a silver platter.)

I wish I could take you up on your offer but I can not.

I love the game itself, but I don't play it any longer after Rolf made Player Auctions his business partner (in a practical sense). I agreed with Rolf on his vision for years even though I don't PvP but I could not follow him down that path. To officially allow RMT but not push it on everyone to me was acceptable because I could just not participate in it, but for Rolf to push RMT the way he did this past November just turned me off as a customer for good.

To me RMT and gold farming/selling is even lower than exploiters. To me it should be a criminal offense. To me the only people that should profit from a MMO is the Devs/Owners of the MMO. I never have agreed with the idea that Players should be able to make money in a MMO.

Wurm is for me now a game put in the category of Entropia Universe and Second Life... games that exist but that I will never play because I disagree with their rules and what is allowed.


It's an amazing game and I miss it. I hope you find other Player to join you there.

Looks cool, it peaks my interest and I would like to try this but it's on STEAM. what a shame.

Many people here do play STEAM managed games and perhaps some of them have tried this one. Be interesting to hear people's opinions on it.


Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Kiyoris


Stop pretending like you speak for us.

We massively supported Vanguard. Players, guilds and communities.

well .. and you can also stop pretending like you speak for "us". Who is "us" anyway?

I certainly do not support vanguard, players, guilds and communities.


Now that was just plain rude.

So... Smedley squeaked through this unscathed? While a huge portion of his Staff get the boot?

I had a really bad gut feeling this is exactly what would happen. Typical and predictable corporate culture. Makes a guy want to leave the planet.

My best wishes goes out to the Staff Members on the List and those not on the List that now need to move on to a new job.

I am looking for some very specific advice from MMORPG Players and I would appreciate any relevant information you wish to pass along either as a post or a private PM.

I wish I could try all the games that hold the MMO title out there to find the one I want but honestly I ain't getting any younger and I hope someone here will steer me in the direction I have been seeking.

I will also state that I expect the only Players that can answer my questions will have had to have played MMORPGs for many years going back to around 2003 or earlier.


I seek a MMORPG that meets the following criteria AND I need recommendations for what specific Server of that MMORPG suggested fits my list of preferences:

1.) Is both Group and Solo Playable, the more of a balanced mix, the better.

2.) Is a Western MMORPG, specifically North American or European in origin / company headquarters location and in where the Servers are located. English Speaking.

3.) A MMORPG that would most likely be called a "traditional" MMORPG... not a MOBA, not a SinglePlayerRPG, or other games that might be referred to as a MMO now.

4.) That has a mix of both PvE and PvP with at least some areas devoted to PvE and that PvP is restricted from those PvE areas.

5.) That has formal Faction warfare PvP with preset Factions, not a MMORPG with just Player made Factions or just a free for all.


and most importantly... and this is the tricky part....

6.) A MMORPG that has a Player Community as similar to MMORPG Player communities of 2000-2005 as possible. It's not going to be as it was then, I know that, I am just seeking a Player Community as close as I can get to the old ones some of us miss.

7.) AND after all that... I really need advice on which specific Server of the MMORPG suggested would best fit my preferences. MMORPG Servers come in all flavors and varieties. I really need recommendations of which server best fits my list.


What a List... Yes I know... but this post isn't a joke or a troll, I am seriously asking for advice on this.

And in the spirit of fun and frolic that is the hallmark of the MMORPG genre, I will not take offense to offbeat or otherwise off topic remarks or friendly jabs and taunts. I will sift through the posts to glean the gold from it, the rest is party favors.

In advance I thank you for your participation and I look forward to your comments and advice. :)

Originally posted by filmoret
I've searched around a bit and you always hear the glory days of DAOC.  But my question,  what makes this game better then GW2 or ESO?  Please do not speak blindly and say because it was a 3 faction war or because there was castle seiging.  Because GW2 and ESO both have this.  I'm just looking for good ideas that aren't in these games.

1.) Three Different Factions... not just copy and paste clones of the other two... distinct and unique Factions, with their own philosophies and ideals and style.... it encouraged a Player to choose one and fall in love with it and defend it at all costs. Unique Classes for each Faction.... the other Factions had not learned Your class while leveling up so they were always doing a catchup dance trying to counter your actions, and so too were you trying to understand the enemy... it encouraged Players to delve deep into the game in a way GW2 can not replicate because when you fight in WvWvW in GW2 your just fighting yourself with different colored clothing.

2.) Guild Insignia that was noticeable and recognizable to all that fostered rivalries and the desire for memorable battles. We couldn't understand the language of the other Factions... but we sure could recognize their guild tabard. We would roam the Frontier looking for certain guilds... can that be said in any current three faction MMO? Afaik no it can't.

and to me the most important reason that can not be duplicated....

3.) MMOs were new and usually only attracted People who genuinely searched for online gaming, not People who were doing something considered cool or hip. The Players of old DAoC cared about the game in a noticeably different way than Players of MMOs now do, and it was those Players, and the Devs of that time, that made the Genre for me and others so awesome. The same can not be found now. DAoC was an awesome MMO because of the People who chose to play it and support it.

To those of you I played DAoC with, and I played against...Thanks Ladies and Gents. You all were great. Boy did we have a party, .... and oh boy what a hangover lol.


Originally posted by VonTakala
Gotta love it when Columbus Nova has over $15+ billion in assets but this somehow makes SOE (pardon me, DBG) an 'indie' game company now.....

Yes, very hard to take this article seriously. The new DBG is no more Indy than the Moon is made of cheese.

Indy to me will always mean Free of large Corporate ownership, control, or sponsorship. DBG is definitely not Indy. DBG would be Indy if everyone on Staff grabbed their files, coffee mugs, and Computers and moved operations into Smedley's Basement... might be a Mansion basement but I would accept that as "Indy".

What do I think this buyout means? I wish I knew. Too many variables.

Here are my personal reasons why I chose not to play any Superhero Player-character MMOs:

1.) Usually 20th or 21st Century time period. I will not play any MMOs during this time period.

2.) Player Character is always the Hero or the Villain or trying to be one or the other. I have no wish to play a Hero, or a Sidekick, I want to be the guy fights in the background like some of the minor recurring characters in the Iron Man and Avenger Movies. This Hero/Villain dynamic is my most dislike feature of SWTOR and most of the times I stopped playing TOR it was because of how that MMO resembles a Superhero MMO too much.

3.) Martial Arts a.k.a. my character fighting with it's fist and feet. I don't play any game with fists and feet as primary weapons because it never interested me. I never have liked any game with martial arts as a main focus and every Superhero I ever read about uses their Fists and Feet a good portion of the time.


Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by nariusseldon

PC games are, in fact, more popular than ever, particular with steam and the indie scene.

Personally I think the classical MMORPGs have run its course .. they are too big, and unwieldy, and not convenient and fun enough for me, and I welcome the changes to more instanced, more game-like, more variety in MMOs.

First, the "classical MMORPG" is no where near the end of it's days. In fact, the future of MMORPGs will be far greater than at any point of it's past. Make no mistake about it, this period is just a lull. I have access to information that allows me to make such a statement knowingly. 


And to my knowledge "- x = less" not "- x = more". So actually, your "more variety" as it turns out, is "less variety."

less variety when now we have MOBAs, instanced games, pvp only games, and so on?

May be for you .. certainly not for me.

And i highly doubt you know anything. Even if you know somewhere some indie group is doing a single "classical MMO", i doubt that will change the genre. Look around you ... even this place is broadening their coverage.

But of course you can say "i am in the know" as much as you wish ... i don't have to believe it.



Try to be civil please. Your opinion is valid. So is everyone else's here.

As far as any Indy project changing the genre.... you and others are already on a campaign to change the genre and in a direction most opposite anything that could be considered "Classical"... is that what fired you up?

If so please be informed that there are some of us who disagree with you. Some of us want the Genre to return to it's classical roots but you already know that.

We don't hate you, we just disagree that on what direction the Genre should go. That's why this is a forum and why we debate here.

So can we please have discussion here without some calling others stupid? Because from where I am from that's exactly what "I highly doubt you know anything" means. It's highly derogatory and I should report you for it... but we are grown ups and I don't think we need to call in the Forum Moderators.

I generally like I have always preferred it to the other websites for mmos.

Except on days when League of Angels Adverts are up. I find them distasteful.

So I will leave for now and try again tomorrow and see if the LoA Ad campaign is over. If the LoA Ads are gone then I will spend some quality time of this website.

That is honestly the only consistent thing I don't agree with on some of the Ads allows. LoA could advertize without looking like softcore porn. There are other sites more suited to that style of art.

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