Originally posted by Connmacart

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Um, meta knowledge is part of the overall skill in playing the game.  While there are differences in the various skills one may acquire, in the end - they all do speak to the overall skillset involved in the game.  Somebody that's played all the classes to have at least a basic understanding of all the classes is going to have an advantage over the person that did not.  Knowing the weaknesses of the those other classes and exploiting those weaknesses...is not a "bad" exploit.  It's along the lines of attacking an enemy from the rear...they're at a disadvantage if you attack from the rear and you're exploiting the fact that their rear is facing you.

So I have to say I disagree about skill being so physical - knowledge plays an important aspect - a very important aspect.  It's something that's often overlooked by many players that think they have "leet" skills.  They'll often complain that something's broken - when they never bothered to think about what's going on.

Player A will jump Player B.  Player A will slaughter Player B.  Player B complains that Player A hacked something.  No, Player A just has a clue...

I would go so far as say Knowledge is the more important aspect when it comes to skill over the physical part. Also there is the raw talent aspect when it comes to skill. 

You can learn to play guitar and practise for years and years and still a virtuoso will out play you after a few months of playing.

Yep, there are definitely folks that just have a natural talent for doing things as well.  They don't bother me either.

Now if the guitar shop sold a guitar that plays itself as well as I can after years of practice and some guy thought he was special because he bought that...well, that would bother me.  And if somebody could detune my guitar, screw with my amp, etc, etc, etc - that would bother me as well.

Somebody being better because they practiced or because they have a talent... how could that bother me, eh?

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Rohn

Progression has less to do with the "MMO" part, and more to do with the "RPG" part.

Character progression of some sort is a major focus of RPGs, whether that's paper and pencil, or computer-based.

Yes, but in a good PnP RPG, progression isn't just being handed shiny things, it's improving the character, but by improving their stats and by knowing how to better utilize the character.  Of the two, the second is the most important.  In an MMO though, progression is usually so mind-numbingly simplistic, you get new armor that looks the same as your old armor, a new sword that looks the same as your old sword so you can go out and fight new, stronger enemies that look just like your old enemies.  Progression is done so badly in most MMOs, it's laughable.

It's the meatier mob with a beefier bat mentality.  I think STO does it the worst because of their replayablity of missions.  You can literally fight level 50 versions of the level 1 mobs.  I mean - the stats are boosted of course - but it's the same mob...same look, same name, etc...just meatier and beefier.

Many games will at least change the model and the name, but in the end - it's still the meatier mob with the beefier bat.  That level 100 boss that rules a kingdom is no smarter than the level 10 boss that sleeps in a tent in a cave.  There are as many "guys" defending the tent guy as the kingdom guy.  They just have more health and do more damage.  Meh...

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by Eir_S

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.

Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG.  Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG.  You're now at two games.  Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame.  Not everybody does though.  So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants more action orientated combat.  Not everybody does though.  But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants a Superhero game.  Tada, you've got four Superhero games.  Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them.  Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two.  Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games.  Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there?  Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....

...sometimes we have to settle.  Or we just walk away.

I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist.  It's version #248 of 3257.  It may or may never exist.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

And this is basically the difference between character/player progression and gear progression.  Unfortunately, it appears the masses want the new shiny items rather than any actual progression.

It's like the following - if I may...

• Tom (playing Game X):  Man, we finally UberMegaBoss.
• Jerry (playing Game Y):  Cool, what'd you get?
• Tom:  What?
• Jerry:  What'd you get for beating that boss?
• Tom:  Um, we beat the boss.  It was hard, but we finally beat him.
• Jerry:  Yeah, but what kind of loot did you get?
• Tom:  Loot?
• Jerry:  Yeah, loot?  What did you get?
• Tom:  Some gold, I guess.
• Jerry:  What?  What epics did you get?
• Tom:  Epics?
• Jerry:  Yeah, for killing the boss.  What epic loot did you get?  How are you going to beat the next boss?
• Tom:  Didn't get any loot like that.  Don't need anything like that to fight the next boss.
• Jerry:  What?
• Tom:  We just need to be better.  We need to apply what we've learned so far, work hard as a team, and with practice we'll be able to take down whatever boss we face next.
• Jerry:  But - you need loot - you need epics.  Where's the progression?
• Tom:  I just told you - we get better the more we play.
• Jerry:  I don't understand...
• Tom:  I'm seeing that....

Originally posted by nsignific

Originally posted by VirusDancer

If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

Maybe "other games" have more to them then just "shiny stars", for example arena ladder systems? I know, it's much easier to latch on to your favourite peeve and argue that point, but you know, er... You can't.

Hrmm....

Originally posted by nsignific

I'm sorry, this is embarrasing, but I thought the good members of mmorpg.com read the posts they're responding to?

...then that would explain your missing the point.

The OP stated...

Originally posted by ViperHoundz

I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

...so I guess...

Originally posted by nsignific

 I'm leaving

...is for the best.

Um, meta knowledge is part of the overall skill in playing the game.  While there are differences in the various skills one may acquire, in the end - they all do speak to the overall skillset involved in the game.  Somebody that's played all the classes to have at least a basic understanding of all the classes is going to have an advantage over the person that did not.  Knowing the weaknesses of the those other classes and exploiting those weaknesses...is not a "bad" exploit.  It's along the lines of attacking an enemy from the rear...they're at a disadvantage if you attack from the rear and you're exploiting the fact that their rear is facing you.

So I have to say I disagree about skill being so physical - knowledge plays an important aspect - a very important aspect.  It's something that's often overlooked by many players that think they have "leet" skills.  They'll often complain that something's broken - when they never bothered to think about what's going on.

Player A will jump Player B.  Player A will slaughter Player B.  Player B complains that Player A hacked something.  No, Player A just has a clue...

An Analogy - Real World Coloring Books vs. MMO Progression Coloring Books

Real World Coloring Books

You're given the complete box of crayons.  You're given a simple picture to color.  Then you're given a more difficult picture to color.  The pictures increase increase in difficulty to color - they become more intricate.

MMO Progression Coloring Books

You're given one crayon and a simple picture.  When you complete that picture, you might get a random second crayon.  Say you started with a Red crayon.  For the second picture, not much more difficult than the first picture - you need a Green crayon.  You have to keep coloring the first picture until you get that Green crayon.  Then you can do the second picture.  Yay!

Yeah, I'm thinking I'd rather go with the first...

Originally posted by nsignific

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

That would be people who fall prey to marketing. Apple is amazing at getting their customers to promote their products - unlike an MMO being promoted furiously by members of this site... :P

Man, it's OK, casuals have a place in this world, who am I to deny you fun - and why would I want to? Some like a challenge in everything we do, be it life or something much less important - video games.

I'm just the kind of person who likes the competitive aspec - if I'm playing sports and the other person(s) say let's just play for fun and not keep score I usually get the urge to walk away and do something more interesting (but don't because I'm way too polite).

If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

Originally posted by nsignific

Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

The simplest test is the "Playing Against Yourself" test.

Clone yourself.

Give your second self better gear.  Your second self wins, eh?

Give your second self a better build (more optimized for PvP than PvE).  Your second self wins, eh?

Give your second self a different class in most games.  Your second self wins, eh?

If you're able to find any advantage to give to your second self... you've found that the game may not be as skill based as you thought.  After all, you can't argue otherwise - your second self is as skilled as you are.

It depends.

Is it a P2W game?  Then it would be the game that bothers me - not the players.

Are they exploting bugs?  Then they would bother me as exploiters.

In general?  No.  Somebody's that spent more time on something should hopefully be better than somebody that has not.

I do have to say, that I get a chuckle of the folks that do the chest thumping when the reasons for their success go beyond themselves.  You kind of feel bad for them.  Now, there are the folks that know that they worked as part of a team and they thank their team - they're not the super stars that some folks think they are.  That's a world of difference.  Folks that know they owned because of the folks behind them are far different than the folks that are oblivious to all the support they received.

Generally speaking though - I'm not sure why somebody that's invested more time to improve themselves should not have that advantage.  I mean, the opposite is where we've gotten into the nonsense of P2W where somebody can just buy their advantages.

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Arguing over which MMO requires more skills is like trying to argue that a tricycle is harder to ride than a Big Wheel.

I'm vote Big Wheel.

It's got a lower center of gravity and fatter wheels on the back though - that makes it easier to do a powerslide than on a trike.  Takes far more skill to do a slide on a trike, c'mon...

:)

Generally speaking, I do not like the majority of people that play MMOs these days.  I do not want to play with them.  That social number in my sig was not always that low...but then again, neither was my opinion of the majority of folks that play MMOs.

I mainly play MMOs by myself these days - the only real "group" content I participate in is PvP.  But then again, like I said... I do not like the majority of people that play MMOs these days.  :)

Originally posted by Hrimnir
I refuse to believe that my post was so full of win that nobody deigned to respond.  No trolls, flames, nothing?  something is off here.

I'm kind of surprised folks did respond.  Your post may as well have listed three factors that separate an orange from an apple and that is why an orange is not an apple.  Not so much a case that it was "full of win" - but that it is obvious.  Yet, obviously as well, that didn't stop folks from trying to argue an apple is an orange, eh?  Meh...

Having PvP'd again over the weekends, I find myself wanting to make the argument that it's been swallowed in the P2W quagmire.  While I was on an alt in a lowbie Kerrat, some folks were trolling a guy in one of the 50's to get his heap out of there and go buy a real ship.  It's kind of sad how it's about the various c-store ships and the consoles...

...still though, it's hard to really make the P2W argument when winning really doesn't matter.

Folks are still doing their pseudo AFK who cares type of play in Arenas, C&H, and Kerrat.  They're there for their 3 fights and the Dil.  They don't care if they win or lose.  They just need to be there...

Originally posted by Cephus404

That's not what anyone is talking about in this thread when someone brings up PvP.  The only thing anyone is talking about is combat-based PvP.

Come on, you ought to know that.

That's kind of why that point is important.  A lot of folks will claim they are against combat PvP for reasons that they completely ignore while participating in other forms of PvP.  Folks need to take a honest look at why they do not like/want it, and then provide those honest reasons.  Where's the issue in that?

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Tsw specs aren't that different to gw2. It requires a level or two higher video card, but its actually a bit lighter on processor requirements.

Um... no.

GW2 Aug 2012:

• Windows® XP Service Pack 2 or better
• Intel® Core 2 Duo 2.0 GHz, Core i3 OR AMD Athlon 64 X2, or better
• 2 GB RAM
• NVIDIA® GeForce® 7800, ATI X1800, Intel HD 3000, or better (256 MB of video RAM and shader model 3.0 or better)
• 25 GB available HDD space
• Broadband Internet connection
• Keyboard and mouse

Originally posted by Dzikuni

@kadepsyson

Its not tab targeting game and u have rly bad aim ?

You missed the obvious there, eh?  I'm bored enough to point it out for you.

Kade said:

I like X.

I like Y.

I don't like Z, can you guess why?

Well - Z obviously has X.  So tada... it doesn't have Y.

This has been a public service announcement - VirusDancer cares!