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Originally posted by Rohn
Just to reiterate, most players appear to agree that they like the content added with Season 6 and 7, they just want it to come faster and easier.

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Still waiting for you to link to a post where anyone expressly said "give it to us for free and for no work at all".

Yup. This poster specifically mentions "I want it faster and easier for my small group when they said;

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No, I don't think they should pay less. What I do believe is the costs in both in-game currencies and time need to be looked at to make them more realistic for the majority of the customers.

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On a side note, balancing also continues to occur, with some changes being made by the patch today.  And there was much rejoicing....

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Yes, they are balancing by making it easier to get Fleet Marks and Dilithium because most of the customers were perfectly happy with how things were and did not want it changed. Yup. That is what happened. ::rolleyes::

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Originally posted by Talonsin

A computer program could have done this same thing for a lot less. 

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I believe it actually is a computer program doing the initial ticket responses. It makes sense as you can imagine the amount of support tickets that have to be handled at any given time for all their games. The program scans for certain keywords within the message text and sends a canned response (which they figure will help in most cases). If this does not solve the issue, then an actual person follows up on the inevitable reply from you. We looked at similar programs where I work and decided not to go with them for the same reasons as you express.

I would agree that customer service and technical support has never been a strength of Cryptic or PWE. Definitely an area they can improve upon greatly.

Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

1) I had fun playing STO for the story missions but they have been abandoned in favor of grind content. The combat was decent fun for me both in space and on the ground but it’s best in quick doses. The grind makes it a chore after a time.

 

2) PVP has been abandoned by 98% of the player base. It is accessed by means of a queue or flying to one of the PVP systems. It is dominated by pre-mades and only pops once in a rare while. It’s very pay to win by means of cash shop and lockbox ships and associated consoles.

 

3) They do have one of the better character customization systems available in an MMORPG on the market even now. Ship customizations are limited to mixing parts from the same grade of ship and applying color patterns. You can select a bridge layout but it doesn’t often match the rest of a ship interior.

 

4) It’s a very casual game and you can have fun playing through the story and various PVE pick up fight activities like Borg alerts and fleet actions. Its not very challenging once you learn what you are doing and that's one reason people call it grindy (ie its easy enough to bore.) However, you can adjust your personal difficulty but that feels buggy some missions. The player made content is a mixed bag. There are a few gems and a lot of garbage. 

 

5) The community is... well, I found it young out in the general areas with older folks met most often in guilds. There are trolls n misfits but nothing like WOW trae chat. People seem pretty nice and helpful.

 

6) I leveled my last character in 18 hours of play, from tutorial to level cap, over a three day weekend. I made sure to do the mirror universe event every time it was up for the full hour and every system patrol I could find. I had money for gear through buying a cash shop item and selling it on the in game exchange. Then, I went through the story missions at my leisure for fun as they adjust to your level.

 

7) No. There is not enough playable content outside of just pure grinding for gear you don’t really need, reputation, starbase projects, or dilithium ore. It really will wear you down and feel like a useless and unfun chore in short order. Find a good fleet. If you go in looking for a month or two diversion you’ll be fine and might return now and then but unless you like leveling alts its a crash ending...

 

Personally, I would recommend that you subscribe to level your characters and then go free to play. The free respec tokens and free ship upgrades every ten levels are well worth it. STO isn't the greatest game but its not the worst. If you are like me you may eventually lament what could have been as it had potential. PWI though is squandering it by trying to make it like their other offerings.

I agree with these and would only add that STO is graphically one of the better MMOs out there.  Cryptic's art department really builds some beautiful landscapes and interior environments.  The new Romulan zone added in Season 7 is expansive, it's just a shame they did not add more content to it beyond boring rep grinding for a useless embassy.

I also would not recommend subscribing to the game.  It is F2P and you are not really missing out on much if you do not subscribe.

[quote]

Originally posted by Rohn

Here's another hint - pretty much every MMO revolves around repetition.  As long as what's being repeated is meaningful to players within the context of the game, it's what keeps people coming back, not "story".  

Not true. Would love for you to provide links to actual evidence of this.

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In fact, a focus on "story" is routinely seen as a failure in MMOs recently.

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Again, not true. Do you ever read posts made in the forums for games like CO and DCUO? Go read them. What are players asking for? STORY CONTENT.    

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It's never been a strong point.

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Right, so folks making posts like this are just plain wrong.

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Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

I had fun playing STO for the story missions but they have been abandoned in favor of grind content. The combat was decent fun for me both in space and on the ground but it’s best in quick doses. The grind makes it a chore after a time.

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Originally posted by Traviks

Playing on launch day, quite interesting and fun, love the series and films, but I dont undestand whats the point about the high end or planets. Content was so poor and uninstalled at last since 4 days playing.   Now 2 (?) years later, too much patchs and content added or I Hope so... So I asking you how is STO atm. Its fun? Stay ppl ingame? Content to do? How it works his high end? PvE? PvP? Ship battles?    Thanks if anyone can help me. 

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If you consider tedious rep grinding fun and lockboxes "content", then sure, you will have a blast. :)

[quote]

Originally posted by grounnn

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GOD I LOVE THAT POST! It's the casual gamers and the people who want instant gratification that's the issue. Thank god some people in the industry still understand this! I feel like going back to STO just because of that statement. I love grind, and I love working towards a very long goal, if their team is willing enough to put grind back into their game they're on the right track.

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You are right. These "systems" are so popular, that is why most all MMO developers moved away from them. Yep. Must be a very popular feature.

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Originally posted by Rohn

But, thanks to this thread, we now know for a FACT that the long term systems like Fleet Advancement and Personal Advancement keep people engaged. For 6 months and counting. Hardly a failure.  Actually, a success.

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Actually, the contrary. Folks in larger fleets are saying it is hurting their population, morale, retention and activity in the game. Perhaps in your rose colored fantasy view of what STO is as of late it is a "success", but that is far from reality. These may keep people engaged only because there is nothing else to do in the game.

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Originally posted by Rohn

From reading the thread, there are many, many people still engaged in working toward the goal of Fleet Advancement, building a starbase, embassy, what have you.  Some may want to attain the goals faster than others, but they like the content. That system is almost 6 months old, and it's still got people engaged.

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Yes, it has kept those in the handful of large Fleets engaged. The likely majority who are not in those large fleets however...

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How much "story" content, how many PvE instances, keep giving people a meaningful reason to play for 6 months?Short answer is: none.

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Cryptic has to add episodic content to the game before anyone can say it would not keep people engaged.

First, anyone can read through the entire thread on the official forum as it is linked from the OP.  Second, please show anyone here where someone asked for "instant gratification".    Lastly, you are (again) trying to deflect reality by tossing out the "instant gratification" mantra and dismissing any opinion that differs from your rose colored glasses  view of STO.  Yes, people do want the content.  Anyone who reads the thread can clearly see that.  No, they do not want to spend several years doing the same tedious, boring tasks in order to obtain a single tier in their starbase.  

The tasks involved are boring, tedious and repetitive.  Players in the larger fleets are already having retention issues with members because the game has become too much like work and not enough like entertainment.  Fleets with 25+ members are finding it boring and saying it will take us over a year to achieve the top tier.  What about groups less than 25?  Less than 10?  They are looking at years, if at all, to achieve the same.  The effort involved is boring, punitive, and not rewarding.  

The situation highlighted with Starbases in the attached post is the same as it is with the "content" that was introduced with Season 7.  That is the gist of the thread.

Excellent follow-up post can be seen here;

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...

But fleets like Jupiter Force, and there may be as many as a dozen in the whole game, are the exceptions, not the rule.

...my concern more specific to the unrealistic access to the various currencies needed by a player to be engaged in the numerous (and increasing number) systems in the game. A player is now gated by time horizontally by each individual system that requires a specific time period to complete a project, but is also gated by time vertically by having to spend time accumulating resources for each individual system independently. There is no functional way in the game to play STO at a reasonable pace and be engaged in the multiple systems simultaneously.

That's a legit problem because it's hard to keep folks motivated when major aspects of what Cryptic advertises as their primary content systems are disconnected from a players gaming experience. What good are Starbases at end game if 99% of the community doesn't have a realistic shot at advancing the system in a way it is even eventually achievable.

I find it hard to believe Starbase Tier V will ever mean anything in STO if only a tiny number of people are in a fleet with one, meaning once built it won't have value for Cryptic to spend resources building more content options for that tiny dedicated Tier V group.

So yeah for me, I'll have a Tier V Starbase, and it will mean nothing because not enough others will have one to inspire Cryptic to develop end game content for the Starbase system. That would suck to work so hard for what amounts to no rewards beyond access to a few more item options. I think most people understand a Tier V Starbase could be a great mechanism for content, particularly via the Foundry, but that doesn't happen if the Starbase is a system that can't be realistically completed by the majority of players...

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There has been some discussion here as of late regarding the implementation of "long term systems" , or better known as repetitive (and in some cases time gated) grind content recently added to STO. The debate has been whether or not these were good additions for a content starved game.

I found this very interesting and telling post made over on the official STO forums to share which I believe sums up the issue quite nicely.  The post is from a player who belongs to one of the oldest and (if not the) largest fleets in STO, Jupiter Force.  Those familiar with STO since the beginning will have heard of Jupiter Force as they used to produce the STOked podcast.  Notice the emphasis on used to.   They abandoned the podcast some time ago.

The thread this post appears in deals with a discussion on small fleets suffering under with building their holdings, but I think the post sums up the problem with Season 7 as a whole, as well as the direction STO is going with "long term systems".

To quote the article (Link to original);

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As a large fleet we struggle to find the fleet marks to sustain projects in the haul between Tier IV and Tier V, and that is despite having a hundred characters maxed in DOFFs and 30+ people active everyday. With all the various gated systems in the game, not to mention playstyles, it's simply not possible right now to get enough fleet marks to sustain 3 projects a day unless everyone actively farms fleet marks, and fleets simply can't ask members to do this every day for months and months with no end in sight.

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If it takes a large active fleet like Jupiter Force a month to fill fleet marks on a Starbase upgrade project, I'm sorry but it suggests to me smaller fleets have no shot in hell of filling it in a way that sustains momentum and active engagement with the system by members of small fleets.

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I think this part is what hits the nail on the proverbial head.

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The way STO has disconnected players from the various currencies required to pace progress to the content systems in the game is the failure of Season 7, and probably the single best thing STO could do to encourage players to try TOR F2P.

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So for those touting the "long term systems" as being the salvation of STO and "a good thing", pay close attention to posts like this. This is an active fleet of 30+ players on daily who are telling you "this is too much of a grind and it needs to change." This is the difficulty a larger, active group is facing with just Starbases alone, not including Embassy or Omega rep grinding. Just imagine this from the perspective of the small, casual groups.

I agree with the the author, and IMO this is a good indicator as to what is wrong with STO and Season 7's "content" ... and I use the the word content loosely.

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Originally posted by D_TOX

In that case, its a phucking winter event. What the hell were you expecting? It's for fun and frolics. Not a goddamn expansion that you paid for. 

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Fair enough. However, do you even play STO? If so, notice any similarities between Season 7's "content" and the Winter Event?

I will give you a hint... "repetition"... ;)

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Originally posted by Po_gg

I'm somewhat with ShardWarrior (although I only have 3 captains), the race is quite boring. I sometimes do it during the snowman event to put some fun into it. And if I think about that I have to do it 3x20 times... I think I'll pass on the ship.

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I passed on it too. The Breen ship is ok, but nothing so special to get me to run the race 25 times on even 1 character.

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... if it's repetitve but fun then I'll do it with pleasure. Yeah, the race is only 2 minutes. But it's a boring 2 minutes, which in time becomes a chore. Some people like to do dull work in their playtime, some don't.

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This is the point I have been trying to get across about the Winter Event. It is too repetitive and thereby boring. Were they to introduce something more engaging, then it would be better IMO. If anything, the folks here claiming "it isn't a grind" are the ones looking for something for nothing.

And for those talking about the "instant gratification"... I would love for anyone to find a post I made where I asked for an item for free. I haven't. What I have been saying is the Winter Event while nice, adds nothing yet another boring, repetitive task to a game already filled with them.

Originally posted by Karahandras
I'm guessing that the better versions of the breen ship will be available from the c store in a month or so(same as last time).

I am not sure.  I would bet it will be in a Breen Lockbox though.  Cryptic/PWE will make way more money on it being in a lockbox vs. just adding the ship to the C-Store.  Why charge 1,000+ ZEN for a ship when they can sucker people into spending 10,000 ZEN (ormore) on lockboxes for the chance to get the ship?

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Originally posted by Rohn

Going to the same places, doing the same things, talking to the same NPCs.  Story, done six different times, is just as tedious and repetitive as anything else.

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Actually, no it isn't. Have you played any of the FE's at all?

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Getting the ship is actually pretty easy.

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No one said otherwise. People have said it is tedious, repetitive, boring and silly, which happens to be true. Nice try though. :)

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Originally posted by Rohn

Doing anything in any MMO with 6 different characters is going to be repetitive.  Good lord.   Doing the same story content six different times would also get repetitive.

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<facepalm>....

Story content where there are numerous places to go, things to do and NPCs to talk to is preferable to running a silly, childish and lazily developed recycled content race.

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The fact remains that getting the ship isn't a grind, especially when compared to grinds in other games.  It's actually pretty easy.  The "grind" is exaggerated.

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The BOREDOM and TEDIOUSNESS are not exaggerated. Nice try though. :)

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That some players would do it with 6 different characters demonstrates that's it's not that hard, and that the goal is worth acheiving.

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More likely it demonstrates stupidity. Again, some people will ask for "more please! more!" from whatever scraps they are tossed.

Still waiting on you to find that post. :)

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Originally posted by Rohn

Funniest thing I've seen here is a while.

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Nowhere near as funny (or more accurately, sad) as the blind faith and loyalty of the Cryptic/PWE supporter. It is truly sad to see folks out there who take any scrap of what can barely be called "content" and cry "more please!"

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So, to make the "hellish" grind actually sound bad, you ran the numbers for 6 characters.

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Yes, I did. I happen to have 4 Federation VA's and 2 Klingon LGs. I am most certainly not the only person with several alts as I know several people myself who have even more than that. Guess what? It is still a boring, repetitive task, even with just 1 character. Fairy dust and wishful thinking does not change that.

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From start to finish - taking the mission, talking to the race official, running the race, and turning it in - the entire process takes less than two and a half minutes. That means the "arduous" grind for a character to earn the ship would take about an hour total time, spread out over 25 days.  Yeah, that's a horrible grind....

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You seem to be missing the whole point. Repetition = boring.

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The instant gratification mentality has just been KILLING the MMO genre.

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I am still waiting on you showing a post I made where I expressly said otherwise. Ignoring what many have asked for - EPISODIC CONTENT - instead of silly snowball fights and races is not going to make it go away. Add these kinds of things as EPISODE/QUEST rewards, not rewards for how long you can sit in front of a computer pressing W A S D until your eyes bleed.

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Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

 

Doing the same quest over and over for 25 days is not a "long term system". It's lazy ass devs who didn't feel like working and just said "Let them grind for it.".

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This. 100% this.

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Originally posted by Draemos

 

The event in question takes less than 5 minutes to run.  Not much of a grind to the people complaining about it.

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You neglected to mention that it is 25 runs per character you would want the ship rewardfor. So if you have half a dozen characters you want the reward for, that is 6 x (5 x 25) = 750 minutes which equals 12 1/2 hours of the same menial task over and over again. At what point does it become boring?

Sure, if you want to run the race a couple of times it is ok, but if you want to do it for the reward on several characters - as most all people I know do - this is a mind numbing, repetitive grind and utterly boring. But it is to be expected since repetitive, boring tasks are the Cryptic/PWE idea of "long term systems".

[mod edit]

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Originally posted by Rohn

The blatant exaggeration is dishonest. Just to be clear: Season 7 added the Tau Dewa sector, the New Romulus adventure area and instances, the Personal Advancement system, Embassies for Fleet advancement, the new STF, and more. All of it was free.  No lockboxes or C-Store required.

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Just as touting of "Season 6 and Season 7 adding so much to the game" is a blatant exaggeration and dishonest. They added about an hour or two of grindy content to the game. That's it. Your opinion on these being "tons of content" is just as irrelevant.