Originally posted by Jayaris

Thanks for the link bartoni, the comments section on that KS was golden.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/appleton/billy-bolts-my-fathers-keeper/comments

LOL. The comments section of the kickstarter are hilarious. Do any of you have friends or aquaintences that just keep throwing bullshit at you well after its been found out they either dont know what they are talking about or are caught in an obvious lie? You know..... like if they can just keep up the facade they can eventually convice you the waters not wet. Or maybe its a pride thing?  Even they know they are wrong but stubbornly refuse to admit it. Thats what this reminds me of.

Originally posted by Yazeed
How about u leave mmorpg games to us pc gamers and u go play CoD pls

Thats kinda selfish. Im not asking for PC gaming to go away, Im asking to be able to play an MMO on console. And why CoD? Cant I go play Zelda or Metal Gear instead?

This theard is stupid

How so?

Does we will see mmo name on console games ?
The answer is yes
Does it full mmorpg style ?
No

I dont see why it cant be a full MMO, FFXI was a full MMO. Now it wasnt a sandbox. If you only recognize that as the only legitimate form of MMO, then thats a different debate then console MMOs. A console MMO can be as deep and engauging as a PC one. Just depends on what the devs want to do.

Is it better to shate mmorpg games to console?
Nope , cus it ganna be consolte style dumbazz

Please explain. What is console style? Why would it have to be any style? If its cross-platform, then why couldnt you have it be both styles?

And if you complain about how mmo cost and blah blah then make a fking good game as wow and start make huge profit ... about console it already got games and fans so leave us some of pc style that we like

You  seem rather selish and paranoid. Why would I take your PC style? And why are you trying so hard to make it an US vs Them issue. Consoles do have a lot of good games. But not many MMOs yet. And why should I have to go play only console games? Cant I play both? 

@ Koboldfodder

Dude, you are an ass. You arent the one that gets to decide what a "real" game is. The mario series is and always will be one of the best games of its type. I wouldnt have spent so many hours playing them if I didnt think they were "real" games. You are however entitled to your completely crazy opinion though.  And from a huge console/gamepad fan........ fuck off.

Also I really appreciate those who have posted intellegently on the topic. I am very much in favor of console MMOs. Console MMOs are totally doable (more so with the next gen consoles), and in my opinion have been pretty successful and a big hit with me. Now thats not to say there arent problems. And anyone that says a console MMO cant have depth is an idiot. Now maybe you dont like it or maybe a game is poorly done, but thats no indidcation of depth or immersion. FFXI absolutely captivated me for 8+years. Also depth is not equal to the number of buttons you can press. Chess for instance is very simple and yet filled with such depth and complexity at the same time.

Quizzical is 100% right. And these present the only real barrier to MMOs on consoles. As for  a MMO being discontinued or blocked, these are possibilities, but worth the risk to me. I will say though that this could happen with PC MMOs that go bankrupt. And that this is only a huge problem if there isnt another platform option. Take FFXI for instance, sure they will drop support for PS2 players for the new expansion, but you still have the option to play with a gamepad on PC.

Cross-platform is just fine as an option too. There is absolutely no reason to make niche community (XBOX only) MMOs or to seperate communitues outside of what Quizz said. Which I think if the console MMO market takes off, there will be a change in the culture over at Playstation and Xbox networks (if thats not already in the works for the next gens).

There are issues with controls but these are more minor than most people make out. I play most MMOs with a gamepad using 3rd party programs. I have only run into 2 problems when it comes to controls: 1) FPS style aiming (analog sticks arent very friendly  for this) and 2) ground targeting like in GW2 (same analog stick problem). So pretty much ANY tab target game that doesnt use ground targeting is completely fine with a gamepad. I have been playing MMOs for years like this.

I also play plenty of PvP and pretty consistently win about 75-80% of my encounters. Not once have I ever lost in PvP and thought: Its cause I use a gamepad. Nope. The other guy was just better than me.... thats all. Now addmitedly trying to go 1 on 1 with FPS set up and not being able to use ground targeting skills in PvP would be a different story. I wouldnt normally try it, but it does depend on the game. There is nothing wrong with my gamepad, it will not have some severe loss in how fast it sends a signal vs a keyboard. There is nothing wrong with my reaction time. I wonder how many PC players would feel like I just castrated them, if I let them know they were just beaten by a filthy mouth-breathing gamepad user? Oh the drama.

Remember in the last paragraph where I say it depends on the game? 2 examples where I wa able to play a game just fine even with the gamepad issues I mentioned earlier. 1) TERA - it was designed with gamepad in mind as well and they did a good job. Despite it being true aim type of game, I never had any issues playing a melee or a tank. Now ranged classes were a different story. Archer class felt much much better with M+KB. 2) GW2 - aside form the ground targeting, this game was made to be played with a gamepad. That being said, I played it anyway, and had a very successful (if not short: just didnt like the game after a few months) PvP career as a Thief and I built my character around my playstyle which obviously didnt include ground targeting. Fear not though as I still had a number of self targeted skills for comboing with others.

Feel free to field me for any "But how can you possibly do X?" questions. Ill just say this again. Aside from what Quizz said, there really is no problem with console MMOs or cross-platform MMOs for that matter. As long as companies do like what SE is doing with having both gamepad and M+KB users in mind and not just junk ports to eachother its perfectly fine. I think the most important thing to users is viable choices. And lets not forget the untapped console MMO market in the already saturated MMO market what better way to get customers than  with a market with limited competition? The other day there was a rumor about EQ Next being PS4 exlusive. While I dont believe it will be only on PS4  and not PC (even at first) Its pretty obvious that it will be exclusive to that CONSOLE. I wouldnt be suprised if SoE does this, becuase their only direct and current MMO competition per sub-genre (high fantasy)  would be FFXIV. And even then they will be able to appeal to different people as one is complete themepark and the other is Sandbox.

Final thoughts: Its going to happen. Might as well not fight it, cause its going to happen. Now whether it will be implemented in good and fun ways is a different story.

From everything Ive read so far, Id say Tab-targeting is pretty likely. Action and twitchy combat is definately out, wich seems to support tab-targeting. Though I suppose it could be some wierd form of true or autotargeting mixed with a slower combat without active blocks and dodges and what not. But that sounds like it would be weird, Imagine playing WoW with everything exaxtly the same but you used true targeting. Better yet, Imagine combat as slow as FFXI yet with true targeting........ this sounds strange, non-traditional, out-of-sync, and unlikely to me.

Other than an extreme likely-hood of tab targeting, the devs desire for a non-actiony/twitchy appraoch and the stamina thing, we dont know a whole lot. We did recently find out that friendly fire was still up in the air though from AoE skills. And we do know that large-scale battles are going to be done in unit formations which will be stronger than individuals not using them, for the purpose of stopping zerging as a good option. So its possible large-scale combat might play sort of like a strategy simulator? IDK for sure its sort of hard to picture what the devs have in mind. Also we arent even sure if there will or will not be auto-attack.

The only other bit of information I know is that they do hope to make a more cerebral and tactical experience. What does this mean? Who freaking knows. BUT what I hope it means is complex tab-target battle that is some awesome combination of chess meets standard MMO, which require reason and situation to determine the use of an action, and not the GCD hell, or twitch based reaction. Maybe something complex like the use of an ability requiring that situation, distance, direction, element type, weapon type, terrain, and stamina all being taken into consideration before you attack or risk failed or unsatisfactory results?

You could be right about tanking replacing CC. How about wha I said above? What if we flipped that on its head and had CC take over tanking, but still call it tanking?

Plate armor, high defense, damage mitigation abilities, with awesome CC abililties that double as threat generation.

This should also solve the issue people have with them finding tanking (with taunts/vokes) as being unrealistic. Because instead youd have a "mage knight" getting their attention with real problems instead of "name calling" or shouts. Sure I understand what people say about how its not realistic the mobs should go after the healer. But with this they have to take out the CC guy cause he wont let them get to the healer.

Of course we could just do away with tanks, but if that happened I would demand classes that have strong and lasting CC, not that .5 to 2 sec crap GW2 call CC.

@ jtcgs - Its not dependency. Its INTERDEPENDENCY! Big difference, because one implies riding the coat tails of others. the other implies working together as a organized, structured, and cohesive unit. Not too mention you get the whole class pride feel. With GW2 I felt as I had no identity

I say the trinity vs non-trinity folks just agree to disagree. You will never convince me that a non-tiity system is a good thing, even if you have 100% successful GW2 dungeon runs. I persoannly didnt like them , and they felt zergy and it did have an every man for themselves feel. BUT I too have seen the youtube vids of people doing spectacular jobs in the dungeons. But to say its easy-mode to use trinity is ridiculous. It very much depends on the game. Some are easy, some not so much. And even that is opinion. For instance I think Tera raids are easy, and I found FFXIVs to be prety challenging (Garuda anyone?) But they are both trinity.

There is no reason we cant have developers make both, just like we have devs making both action and traditional MMOs.

Anyways, my prefered system would be a totally classless system, that focusses on roles (trinity + CC and buff/debuff). And these roles would be crucial, as in @ endgame you will struggle or fail if you dont have the right roles. But seeing as its a classless system, anyone could learn the skills to take on any role. And youd spec yourself accordingly.

Back up idea is something along the lines of FFXI/FFXIV but with a heavier focus on hybrid classes that are awesome at BOTH their roles and needed. That way you could trade out if you wante to but if you like a class you can stick with it.

(example: CC as tanking - in other words a plate mail defensive fighter with damage mitigating abilities and powerful CC abilities that double as threat generators. That way if there are too many "tanks" the ones not tanking can focus on CC and will be nice to have in case tank goes down.)

@ Sovrath

I kinda agree with not having some kind of restriction on progression so that everyone isnt making master of everything  tank-mage-healer God classes. I get that. But FFXI and FFXIV definately dont do that.

I think its important to point out the difference here between games with specialized classes, games with alts, and classless systems

WoW = specialized classes and you have to roll an alt to play a different class, but all quest/raid progress must be redone.

FFXI/FFXIV = specialized classes on the same character where all quest/raid progress is tied to the same character. Its basically like having alts only you arent having an identity crisis with having multiple yous. When you switch classes you cant switch anytime you want (like going between tank and mage while fighting a boss, you go in with tank you STAY tank).  Switching classes in these games would be a complete switch of class and stats and you only had access to whatever you leveled a class too. And often times it would mean complete swtch in useable/neded gear. This is why I say its almost like having alts.

Asherons Call = Classless (same character and master of everything eventually)

I guess the most important differenece is that in a class switching game like ffxi, you cant be a master of everything and have access to all skills at the same time as you could with a classless system.

However, a completely classless system could work to with a few changes. Like bonus power for using skills of the same archetype. Or a build a deck of cards approach where you have limited ability slots and for each encounter you have to choose strategically what to take (even if you actually have mastered everything)

If set up right any system where you can experience all things on one character is better imo. You become more attached to that character because of the overwhelming amount you have invested in that one character. You are very versatile and able to help out in any situation without having to log out and bring in your alt. And it makes it less confusing when people dont have to attach a face to 5-6 different characters. The only legitimate reason why id even want to roll an alt if the system allowed class switching or a classless system, would be for RP purposes.

As to the problem of people wanting too much shit for their vast array of characters @ endgame. It is a problem, but I agree with the other poster that tokens would end that problem. If someone wants to level up 15 different classes on one charater, here are the tokens, distribute them as you see fit.

I do love to raid, but that was freaking hillarious. Its 2 AM here and Im laghing my ass off at this raid leader, and have drink coming out my nose.

WELL DONE SIR!

Sad part is its funny because its true. Now all we need is an animated version of loot drama after the raid........ (sigh) I could tell some awesome stories about the endless drama llama that is ninja looting. Have any of you ever heard a grown man cry over teamspeak? I have and I was torn between doing my duty as a guild leader and just laughing at the dude and calling him a little girl.

So would I go back? Hell No! Im somewhere in between 5-6 man raids and wishing for an online multiplayer (6-10 max) skyrim with new content every month for years that I pay a subscription for.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Not all single player games end.

I think she means single player rpgs end for all major gameplay/story/etc. And I think you probably actually realized it, you are just being difficult.

I agree with her. The single largest reason that I like to solo MMOs is because the story/game never ends. The closest non-mmo Ive found to this is TES series. However, you do eventually beat every challenge, find everything, do everything, max your progression, and gobble up the few DLC  additions.

I challenge you to name 1 single player rpg that excedes TES series (not just meets it) to the significant degree that I would be able to play it with continuous content updates for years. I actually can think of one other series that attemepts to do this (but its dated, and its only one!)

Tell you what, if you can convice some develpoers to come out with a game like Skyrim/Oblivion (maybe a bit more fleshed out battle system) that does allow up to 10 people multiplayer, and has a subscription model, and comes out with a huge world, with constant updates for YEARS !!! I would gladly let them take my money , leave MMOs for good, and never look back.

@ OP

WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU?

Answer: Some random dude on the internet, just like me.

I like what Ive seen from NWO so far, I wont be spending money on any of the founders packs. But if I did its none of your business. For different games I will determine what and whe I spend any amount of money. I however am not afraid to throw money at something if I feel so inclined. If it ends up shit, then I walk away.

Besides there are so many stupid things in this world people spend money on. I doubt youve never done so. This includes everything from toys for kids (not necessary for a child to live) to cigs and beer (waste of money bound to cause health problems) Everyone has thier vices and dirty little pleasures. Stop worrying about mine and get back to yours.

In answer to the OP. Not just yes but HELL YES!

I just dont think the system works very well. Its not that it doesnt work, I just dont find it to be that great of an answer. Maybe a system like this could work if implemented better, but I cant see it. So another game company needs to prove me wrong. Again this is IMO.

Also just from a personal perspective. I just didnt like it. I know I know there are problems with highly specific class systems, and having to wait for a group for hours. Even still I like the ultra-focused interdependent team play. So Id rather see systems that make this kind of thing work better, than eliminate true Trinity (or better Quad-roles that include CC classes).

LOL nice one Icewhite.

I guess Ill be foolish and see you all in hell.

While I install 3rd party programs and play games that natively play themselves for me.

Now if only I could have someone feed me, wipe my ass, and decide whats best for me....... oh wait....... forgot I have the U.S. government for that ^.~

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? lol I love it when I can quote scripture 

:p
 

WTF?.....

For Christ's sake Blizzard, no wonder everyone on this site thinks sandbox and FFA FULL LOOT PvP are the only wat to go. With this information I kind of dont blame them.

Ill play Devils Advocate to the above real quick though. Have any of you noticed that the quality of gamer has gone down in the last few years? I recently tried doing raids with a new guild  for a newish game, and for one dungeon it was 2 straight weeks of abysmal fail. I knew what was going on and I knew who all was dicking it up. I tried to be gentle and used constructive criticism, but it was like talking to a wall (fyi, Im not even that bad ass of a player imo). I dont know if its a lack of skill due to newr games babysitting, or social media and TV destractions, or if they just dont give a shit enough to put in siginifcant effort.

All I know is that after that I left for another guild and it was pretty much the same thing. Thats not to say there werent any good players, but when half the raid team has to carry the other half, its pretty bad. That leaves me with 2 options, go play single player games so I dont have to put up with the lazy/stupid/uncommited, or form a group of only highly skilled players which makes me an elitest asshole. But in social games like this its hard for me to turn someone away, then again I never had too in the old days. If I did it was because of drama (easy to kick out drama queens) and not becuase of skill.

Which I cant believe Im saying this but almost makes me understand having such a system in place. I want to play MMOs, I want to play with friends, I dont want to have them leave or have to ditch them because they suck. God Im just so disgusted with the whole thing.....

OK just gonna have to wait and see on upcomming games. And there is always Pathfinder Online!

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Amsai

In answer to you question about the ethics of how the game (puposefully or not) is being branded and using the Neverwinter title:

Yes, they probably could have been more honest and open, and clarified details.

In answer to your question about playing the games if they werent attached to the D&D or TES IPs:

Yes, as long as they are fun.

TLDR; If its fun Ill throw money at it. All that matters is if I find it fun.

 

Well, thanks for taking a run at the actual topic (rather then evading answers by deflecting in an effort to make this be about me rather then the game).

But my particular question there wasn't really whether or not you will be playing the game, the question was whether you would have paid any attention to it at all in the first place if it wasn't about the implied association with the much loved NWN or the D&D branding.

My feeling, from this thread alone, is that a lot of people already feel very emotionally protective over the game, which is suprising seeing as they know so little of it past the branding. Part of what I am asking is whether they would feel like that if was generic fantasy setting #4674555 under generic fantasy name #34566, especially with who is making it.

 

 

 I did answer this question I thought........ Though maybe I didnt answer it as directly I thought it was implied by my repsonse.

Anyways, specifically to this question the answer is yes. If I knew nothing of cryptic and new nothing of  D&D, or if the title was not associated with either, I still would have become interested because of the Foundry System. Though the PW connection would and still does make me cautious, but that just gets back to my TL,DR from last post.

 

In answer to you question about the ethics of how the game (puposefully or not) is being branded and using the Neverwinter title:

Yes, they probably could have been more honest and open, and clarified details. But.... I dont care.

People seem to get bent out of shape for things like: is it p2p, f2p, OW, sandbox, themepark, instanced hub, made by this or that dev, expensive starter packs, paying for betas, using an IP but not being true enough to it. Again, I dont care about these things. Truth is I am desperate for ANY game that is fun and will hold my interest beyond a month (been a while I can tell you). As long as the devs arent f*@#ing me over, ignoring RMTs, making it TRULY P2W, or deleting my character data, I dont care how much they charge me or how they charge me (payed beta, f2p, cash shop, p2p, b2p).

Im often suprised by how many people get so upset about money, when honestly subs and what not are nothing compared to the amoun people spend on beer, fastfood, and cigs. I dont even make that much money. I mean why wouldnt you be willing to spend a good amount of money on a hobby you truly likes. Id pay as high as $25/month with a bling cash shop if I loved the game, Im perfectly willing to throw money at things that make me happy. The min they stop making me happy, or if they never did, they no longer receive my support.

In answer to your question about playing the games if they werent attached to the D&D or TES IPs:

Yes, as long as they are fun. Maybe Ill hate both, but I wont know til beta or release. For TESO I am most interested in the stealth aspect and the pickpocket, lockpicking and stealing things of the shelves of peoples houses. Its supposed to be very much like the single players, but if its not then I likely will stop/never support them. For Neverwinter I am most looking forward to the Foundry. Will it be as awesome and robust as I want it to be, hell if I know. But if its not........ I will stop supporting them.

TLDR; If its fun Ill throw money at it. All that matters is if I find it fun.

Oh believe me, I understand. Im not losing sleep over it or anything. But the last MM to give me any hope in this direction was Mortal Online I think?

Regardless, it will be what it will be for better or worse. And if its worse, I still have my offline stealthy games and Neverwinter and Pathfinder to check out (D&D nerd, my other passion). Because they cant be worse than DDO......... or can they??!!?

Do I hope the game does well? Yes. Am I looking forward to it? Yes. Will it be a great game? No Idea. Do you know what you are talking about? I highly doubt it.

Personally I dont care whether it has or doesnt : PvP, Quests, Raids, OW, Instanced World, seamless world, is P2P, is F2P, has a low population.

None of these things are my main reason for wanting to play this game. Though a few would be nice perks.

My main reasons are: ES style stealth and sneak attack, and sneak attack bonuses, and pickpocketing, lockpicking, and robing people blind. If Zenimax can pull these things off in a good (not even perfect) way, then Ill probably be more than happy. I love stealth games and have never seen a good implementation of stealth/rogue/thief/assassin mechanics in an MMO.

On the other hand they may completely fail to satisfy me in this area, but that remains to be seen.

Originally posted by kabitoshin
Never followed this game, but recently playing it waiting for
FFXIV:ARR. What happened to the game that made it unplayable for old-schoolers? I think its pretty good game so far.

Abyssea. It basically turned the game into a different game. A lot of people, myself included, hated it and left. Some who liked the lore and the world, but didnt like how ragequit hard it could be, loved the changes and stayed. I still stay in touch with about 7 old LS mates that still play the game, and look to be lifers at this point. As for me, even if they did make it like it was back in the day,I "freed" myself from the 7 days a week endgame addiction once, and am using the dated graphics as my flimsy excuse to never get trapped again.

/em Has flashbacks of "sleep camping" Nidhogg/Fafnir, 3 hour Dynamis's, and KA bot claimers!!!