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All Posts by Mr_Rogers

All Posts by Mr_Rogers

1 Page 1
17 posts found
Originally posted by danwest58

It basically boils down to this.  Publishers want to make MMOs for everyone and their brother.  When you have someone like me who has been playing MMOs since 1998 with UO we look at MMOs as a Hobby over a GAME.  When you make the game nothing more than candy crush to make major profits because every 30 minute a week player must feel like they are something special you water down what MMOs are truly about.  


They are about making friendships that last years.  Being a Hobby people are involved in for a year or more.  When you play you want to feel your apart of something because you look at an MMO as a Hobby.  


When I say Hobby I say it like someone who loves Golf.  They spent time and money buying clubs that they want to use on the course.  They study the course and how best to win.  They create a social circle around playing Golf.  


The problem is this, MMOs have been trying to get everyone and their brother into MMOs to generate more money.  Yes they are a business.  However we have a fundamental issue with our businesses today.  Their first and most overriding belief is Money is the most important thing and at all cost you must make as much as you can.  This is why GM is in trouble with having so many unsafe cars on the road.  Making money was more important than Safety.  The same can be said about Companies that ship manufacturing over to China.  Yes they were making profits while the jobs were here however they make more profit when labor is cheap.  However it hurt their overall product, and other issues that come with shipping jobs to China.  Guess what MMOs are suffering from this mentality, try to get as many people into the game as possible at the cost of quality and the genera because MORE EQUALS BETTER.  Which is not always true.


So we bring more people into MMOs for money.  What happens?  People want things in game like 15 minute instances because well their personal life does not revolve around MMOs.  Which is understandable to some extent.  The problem is when you water content down for these people you take content away from people like myself who basically enjoy my 4 to 10 hours a week of MMO time and getting involved in a virtual world and having friends out of it.  Now instead of having a 2 hour Heroic Shattered halls run like I did in BC with my friends on friday night.  We run 4 to 5 instances with an hour and are bored out of our dam mines because the content is built for that 15 minute sporadic gamer.  Yes having more people in your MMO means more money often however at some point the population of your MMO becomes just as sporadic as the gamers you are trying to attract meaning you loose more money as a sub game but you need to make up with F2P.  This is good that you make up the money but you spend more time making pay for content vs in game subscription content.  The 2 extremes are some months you make a lot of money and others you make little, vs most months you make the same amount with subscriptions.  W


What has all this done to the genera?  Its made MMO publishers try to out due each other by spending Hundreds of Millions of dollars in development and Marketing of their new game. Well investors are having a hard time return so fewer are investing in making new MMOs, the MMOs that are being talked about coming out over the next few years are Kickstarter MMOs which maybe a few might be good maybe not who knows.  


All the while more and more MMO gamers like myself are leaving MMO games completely behind.  I have played with a few hundred players since my days in UO, many of them I keep in contact with.  Only a half dozen of us still play MMOs.  Many have went on to other hobbies like buying a motorcycle, or Golf in several friends cases, Bowling in others, a few went into cooking.  All of them spend hours a week involved with their hobbies and spending big money on these hobbies.  Some of them can go on and on and on about their new hobbies. However when you ask players like myself who are left in MMOs we cannot talk about our chosen Hobby we feel its watered down and their is little to nothing to talk about expect the next game.


Why is that, that we just talk about the next game?  Well because its new and because MMOs today are being made to be thrown away after a few months.  Yes they get a few content releases here and there.  However we are not seeing 10 to 15 instances in an expansion where if you dont work well in a group you will fail so you need to work together to complete these instances.  No in about 2 months into the expansion they are nothing more than speed runs for gear.  In old school SandBox MMOs we use to get involved in some PVP, some PVE, some crafting there was a lot to do, they were designed to take hours for you to level, for you to complete making weapons or armor, or in a game like UO it would take you a few hours of making different sets of armor.  It was not push a button and walk away.


Now Just like everyone else I have about 75% less time than I had before.  However that does not mean we need 15 min instances that take no effort to complete.  Crafting that is mind numbing. Queues just to run instances because we are not capable to converse with other people to see if they want to run X instances with us.  We dont even need the level grind that MMOs once had.  However trying to make an MMO so every person that has 15 minutes a week can play is foolish.  Its made the experience cheap and something you enjoy for a few months then go back to an old mmo, wait for the new MMO to come out or quit MMOs all together.  Instead of Publishers stop making MMOs and making MOs or Co-Op games they try to make an MMO and get every person possible into it because games like candy crush are popular.  Why are they popular?  Simple because they are simple games made up for people who just like playing games on the crapper.  Not for someone who wants an MMO that they will play for, for years. 


People want to say MMOs are just a game.  Well so is Golf.  Should we cut Golf down from 18 holes to 6 so we have more people that play Golf?  I think current Golfers would hate it and would be so against it because it waters down the game.  Should we cut a down 1 game of bowling from 10 frames to 4 so we get more players just to play.  I think Bowlers who enjoy this hobby would be just like the Golfers, pissed off and want you to just go play midnight bowling and play 4 frames and go home.  


Why cant we make games for everyone.  Well just like the battle that is going on now in the WOD beta.  Blizzard is making Normals for everyone where they want the instances snooze easy.  Well there are people who want heroes snooze easy too so they do not get bothered with running the content again and again if its setup for pre-made groups.  These players either A want to raid and thats all they want to do in game.  Or B want to do the content as fast as possible on both modes because they paid their $15 for the month and nothing should be kept from them.  They both say that hard content should just be in challenge modes but challenge modes are nothing but a speed run anyway.  So anyone who wants content that will last a few hours and can be involving does not matter.  Though these are the gamers who will stick around with active subs for years.  Vs people who want fast and easy to cancel their sub when all the content is down until the next major patch.  


So for people like myself we will never change period.  We look at things we do in life as a hobby.  Not just a throw away 15 minute activity just so we can go onto the next when ever we feel like it.  That is why these things endure, because we are the type that do not want cheap replaceable content or watered down games were the masses do.  Because MMOs were meant to be a Hobby over a throw away Game like Dragon Age.  

Its all boiled down to how can we get the most money out of the masses.  The masses playing watered down easy and fast content.  Not something they will stick with for years at a time to play like an Old MMO Gamer like I am.  5 years UO, 2 Years SWG, 1 Year FFXI, 10 years WOW.  Why didnt I play another MMO since WOW BC for more than 5 months?  Because the content gets watered down so every below Average Joe can play and get into it because if it takes an hour or 2 to do or requires Pre-Made groups they cry and complain on the forums endlessly until its nerfed to their 15 minutes of game play for more MONEY!.

This is a QUALITY post.  Take the time to read.

Good article.  This is spot on.
Originally posted by grimgryphon

It took me years to come to grips with the fact that my memories of UO were far better than the actual game.

Gotta love those rose-colored gamer goggles.

I agree with this statement.  I will say, however, that it is STILL to this date the most enjoyable MMO out there.

Check out 'Rel Por'.  It's a UO shard with a smaller land mass to encourage player interaction.  This game is still quality.

Best sandbox MMO of all time.  Hands down.  The definition of a sandbox, really.  Many have tried to come close, and have failed (looking at you Mortal Online, Xsyon).

The full-loot mechanic worked.  And it worked well.  It made the game so intense!  I miss those days.  There are people who STILL subscribe to the game, just to keep their house from falling.  In fact, my cousin won a contest on one of the major servers, and was given a full-size castle!  People were offering her $500 just to have it.  She ended up letting it fall just to spite...

There are people who would play this game just to write LORE!  They dedicated their gaming lives to roleplaying.  This is how a interactive, online RPG should be.

The stories that could be told!  I mean, who can forget when Lord British was killed by a firewall scroll in beta?  I subscribed to PC Gamer back then, and this was BIG NEWS! 

Do you have a story?  We are sharing some here... feel free to join us!




Originally posted by King-Kong
Originally posted by Mr_Rogers

The truth is, though, that game developers are not stupid.  They know that a full loot-type open world PvP style of gameplay leads to less revenue than structured PvP where players don't lose items.

I don't know about that. If not stupid is trying to squeeze as much money out of players at the expense of the game, then yes developers are not stupid. If making a great game is the first priority, then developers are stupid.

And UO did quite well with full loot attaining hundreds of thousands of subscriptions when most people didn't even know what an MMO was. The fact that gear was fairly easily replaced with npc or crafted gear meant that the cost of dying was not too great. But it is valuable to have a cost to dying. Dying should hurt. But it should not really be looked at as dying, because there is no death in a game, it's only a temporary loss. It's when thoughtless players began to equate getting murdered in the game with getting murdered in real life instead of temporarily losing, that they began to cry that they shold never lose.

What kind of game do you never lose at? A boring one.

Although I agree with your comments, I must take exception.  UO did quite well because they were the only kid-on-the-block.   (Meridian doesn't count, neither does The Realm, lol) .  Everquest did astronomically well, and they started heading the direction of lossless death.  Soon after, WoW did even better, and we know the direction they took!

The fact is it's a small percentage of the MMO crowd (some would call this the "hardcore" crowd) who enjoys having a cost to dying that is actually significant.

Oh, and I don't think many players equate getting murdered in a game to getting murdered in real life ;)   lol


I agree with the above comments.  I do think GW2 is heading in the right direction.  The truth is, though, that game developers are not stupid.  They know that a full loot-type open world PvP style of gameplay leads to less revenue than structured PvP where players don't lose items.

To me, the best part of Ultima Online was combating, stealing, and adventuring.  Before there were "bless" deeds, you could lose ANYTHING.  I loved the feeling of being scared to die, and I enjoyed killing a grey or a red and taking their Industructable Vanq bow even more.


I don't understand why you moved my post to "Britannia Tavern".  First of all, I followed the rules, and we are talking about MMORPGs.  Secondly, you moved it to a location where the traffic is much to be desired.


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Roleplaying an environmentalist murderer on Pacific. Tried it also on Catskills, but the RP Police was strong with that crowd so I abandoned that one quickly. The character was originally going to be part of a server-specific story arc, but that plot got dropped. Instead of just shelving the character, I trained her up and played out her part of the story. The Pacfic crowd - from the Skara Brae roleplayers to the crossroads PKs - was wonderfully tolerant of different playstyles and it was an incredible experience actually getting to play out a true villain in the game.

I kept a diary of the characters adventures, making a point to keep to a schedule of Tuesday mornings and thursday evenings so that those who wanted to hunt her had a chnace to and those who wanted to avoid her knew when certain parts of the forest were unsafe. :)

Of all my experiences in UO, my time with the community on the Pacific server was the most memorable. I have never come across a more universally tolerant, accepting and fun-loving community on any other game server.



Thank you for the reply!  Very cool website.

There are those who dedicated their entire virtual existence to creating lore in UO.  I don't agree with not rehashing the past.  No modern games pull off what UO did so well... and that is creating a great, immersive role-playing environment with limitless expandability.  We need to learn from these games!  I do not like the direction modern MMOs have been taking AT ALL.  I will continue to rehash the past until another game comes along that is half of what UO was.

This morning as I was getting ready, I experienced a moment of deep sadness and nostalgia.  I began day-dreaming of the golden years…the years of Ultima Online.  I’d like to keep some of my most cherished memories alive through this forum.  Bear with me… (all of these pre-Trammel era, on Atlantic server).
·         As a thief, I remember running through the woods of Yew… looking for prospective victims.  One day I came upon a Grandmaster Archer, who was killing birds for their feathers.  I ran passed him and snooped his bag, then hid.  There was a magic bow contained therein.  I then stealthed to the unsuspecting victim, and stole his bow!  He tried to fight back, but when he reached for his weapon, it was not to be found.  It turned out it was an indestructible short bow of Vanq.  One of my best catches ever.
·         At a time when reds (murderers) were allowed in town, myself and 3 of my comrades were at the Moonglow bank.  A red was trying to sell his magic mallet to another player.  The 4 people in my party were all mages.  We went off-screen, cast Energy Bolt (Corp Por FTW!), and sync-dumped that red into oblivion, right next to the bank.  Needless to say, the prospective buyer received his magical mallet for free that day.
·         There is a bridge halfway between Trinsic and Britain.  My partner and I used to hide beside this bridge.  I was a thief, and my friend a mage.  As someone would enter the bridge, my partner would cast a magic wall on the opposite side of the bridge.  I would then enter the other side, blocking the victim from escaping.  I would then commence looting the victim where he stood, at least until the magic wall disappeared.  This was so much fun!  People used to adventure on foot from time-to-time back in the day, and not gate/recall to every destination.
·         Of course, I save the best for last. 
On the West Entrance to Trinsic, there was a young player looking for guidance.  Generally, I would lead this type out of town, to possibly steal and/or kill him.  But this one stuck with me…he was so sincere.  A softy at heart, I began to assist the young man.  After conspiring with my friend, my partner led the young man down the street, as I set up a “magic arrow of gold” on the ground.  I created a make-believe arrow of gold coins at the entrance of West Trinsic.
We then told the young man that Lord British himself sent us to hire him, and to come meet the king himself immediately.  The young player began dancing in circles, excited to meet the king!  We wished him farewell on his travels.  We told him at the site of a gate, and with a step of faith…he would appear at the king’s castle.  At the end of the golden arrow, my friend opened a gate to Lord British’s castle, where the young player excitedly, but hesitantly, went through, thanking us all the way for his upcoming adventures.
This last story changed my outlook on Ultima Online forever.  It wasn’t all about the PvP, and the stealing… this experience struck a chord with me so deep.  From this point forward, my friend and I dedicated our virtual lives to Role Playing.  We built a house at the north-most top of the main continent, and lived out the rest of our days in UO fishing, cooking, and role-playing in our home.  Chess, checkers…it didn’t matter.  No more magic… only the occasional treasure hunt and boat trip to Skara Brae for supplies.
Please share your UO experiences on this thread!  May the best MMORPG of all time (pre-Trammel) continue to live on in our memories!
Originally posted by Kappadonna

UO was at it's best from 1998-2000 and then suffered a huge blow with UO:R in 2000/1 with the introduction of Trammel. However, it didn't necessarily kill the game - 



Originally posted by TomBaker_fan

UO died the day trammel was released. Killing and stealing from carebears will be forever missed. Felucca was the wild west of the MMO's, and then along came the carebear police and ruined the best pvp game of all time.



I would envision the developers creating the mechanics and entering specific parameters, to have some sort of control on the quest system.  i.e. a predetermined series of steps to fill out to create your quest...

Of course, there would be seperate a "free-for-all" section as well, but players take these quests at their own risk...

You wouldn't have slaves, but contractors :)

Here is an idea for a player-run questing system in a Sandbox-type MMO... 

Why not have an "auction house" specifically for players to submit quests?  It would be a sophisticated system that would reward questers with experience, loot, gold, and so forth, depending on the difficulty of the quest, and the items submitted by the quest-giver.  Some rewards would be automatically generated based on the difficulty, some would be given by the quest-giver in return for the completion of the quest.

There would be restrictions on the system, and loop-holes that would have to be closed... but I think the concept is solid, and the fun limitless.  

I remember playing UO, and drooling over the Bounty Board, looking for PKs with high murder counts and 1000000+ gold on their heads.  Adding the human element to quests adds unpredictability, and a never-ending pool of quests to perform.

Feel free to add some comments or further ideas about this... I'm really interested to hear what other people think!




I am a HUGE fan of Ultima Online. If anyone has a MO trial available, I would deeply appreciate it. Please message me. John

Wow, votes for DarkFall and votes for Xsyon.

Why is Mortal Online not getting any love?  Seems to me (as far as features go), the devs want to implement the most "sandbox-like" features.  I've heard in the past month the bugs and content have gotten a huge facelift in MO.  Anyone play it recently?  Can anyone compare it to Darkfall or Xsyon?

Perhaps I'll try the 14 day trial of Darkfall. The older I get though, the more I realize it's more about the gameplay and less about the graphics. Perhaps I'll never leave UO. The UO Hybrid player shard seems to satisfy my PvP needs.

I'm looking for the best *new* game that will halfway compare with the feel of the great Ultima Online.  WoW doesn't cut it.  Looking for

•Great PvP, with full loot!
•Factions, Guilds...
•Player-run housing
•Open-ended adventuring

So far, I've come up with the following (none of which I've played)

•Mortal Online (highest potential?)

How do the above fare?
Are there any old school UO players who could make a recommendation (please give some comparisons and reasons why)?

I currently play on a UO Player-run shard (pre-T2A), and will continue to do so until I find a game with the same feel, features, and sandbox environment that we had with UO!

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