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All Posts by Goreson

All Posts by Goreson

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122 posts found
Originally posted by calranthe

I would like some help deciding if I should buy this game, if people who have tried the beta think it will suit me, I will be making my own decision but basically looking for thoughts and advice.

Being retired and married to a woman who loves games as much as me we have a lot of spare time to play games.

I doubt that I will join in on the pvp side of GW2 simply because EVE is our pvp game and unless GW2 has proper pvp with loss and character looting, destruction of property and true consequences I doubt it will draw us in.

On the other hand we quite enjoyed the pve side of Guildwars and we do enjoy good storylines and quests (not grind like tera) , we are currently really enjoying TSW but because GW2 is a one off payment it may be the title to play inbetween TSW sessions. (yes we usually have 3 mmo games on the go at the same time and unsub'd to swtor after finding out it was a wow clone).

Please just tell us your pve experiences and what you think.

Also we enjoyed the companion system in GW is that still around is there any pet class ?

Forgot to mention in games like GW we are strictly solo/duo players casual time etc, our big group game is eve.

I look forward to reading any replies.


Right, if you are on the fence... well... stay there!

First, I'm really pressed hard to give any advice to someone who unsubs from a game "because it is a WoW clone".

SWTOR had enough creds in its own right, but too little people of the current instant gratification generation did see that.

Anyhow, GW2...

The game has been thru I don't know how many open BWEs now, IF you haven't managed to get into one of them, to me it sounds like - even just running 2 games and 1 even brand new - you are overdoing it already. That or you don't really care about GW2 in the first place.

I will not say how mediocre I found the game when I tested it in BWE1 - ooops, I did - that is something that is completely up to the individual gamer.

What I'd suggest wait a while until there is another free trial sometime down the line - look at your WoW clone, it has done so a couple of times now ;-) - and the check it out yourself.

Just don't listen to all the GW2 fanbhoys!

Originally posted by DrunkWolf

I hope it gets better than what i have seen so far.

In last weeks beta i was turned in a cat and hunted rabbits, i had to feed cows, i had to follow some wolf around to get credit for quest, and i had to pick up eggs off the ground and put them in a nest.

these are just the stupid ass quest that i remember, there were many more.  please tell me that this isnt it, these are some of the most care bear quest i have ever seen in a game. most of them i didnt even have to kill anything.....

only ever did the BWE1 but up to level18 and past the starting zones for Charr, Norn and Human, and yes, I'm sorry to say that a lost of these quests are this type of "you got to be kidding, I'm an adventurer and you want me to clean your garden?!?" fun.

Was one of the reasons I never went back to further trying GW2: can't do it right at the beginning (low levels) why expect them to get it right at higher levels?

Originally posted by GTwander
Originally posted by Fearum

The game is not skyrim or any of the single player games ported into a MMO, its entirely new game. The only thing in common with the Elder scrolls single player games is the world its based in.  

It puts you into a story of 1000 years before the first elder scrolls game in the middle of a world war where you choose a faction and fight for your faction to dominate Cyridil and crown a king also building up your character to become a hero along the way. There is a character story also that you can follow, dungeons to run instanced and public, 3 faction pvp, instanced BG pvp, exploration and other stuff. Its not a series game, its a new game based on the world of Elder scrolls.

They are still making the single players games at bethesda when they are not making all the other games they also have out.

Uh huh.

Why don't they just make a Gears of War MMO that introduces a 3rd faction for the sake of a having a 3rd one on top of CoGs and Locusts... then they can strip the FPS nature of it away and make it rely on hotbar-based combat ala World of Warcraft.

How do you think the reception will be over that?

Get real man, expectations are in place because the series existed as a GAME first. People have brought up "ooo Star Wars, would you gripe if Star Wars did it a certain way?". NO, because Star Wars is a movie franchise, they can do what they damned well please - TES is a GAME franchise, people have expectations for it if portrayed in the same goddamned medium goddamnit.

This is not as simple as moving Final Fantasy over into Final Fantasy: Tactics.

And this is why some gamers really need to grow up!

No Virginia, you are now 45 years old, you finally need to understand that Santa is not real, it's an old man with a fake white beard and a red costume who is hired each Xmas to play Santa!

At some point in time you need to understand that other venues may be explored for a - drumroll - game franchise.

Whether this turns out to be a success is a different story... but just crying and trowing a temper tantrum like a 3 year old toddler because somebody actually does it, this only shows how immature you are.

Grow up!

Originally posted by chryses
Originally posted by Ryowulf

The mmo will be Elder Scrolls in name only. We have been told this all ready.

Its not Skyrim Multi-player. Its an mmo with Elder Scroll place/faction/etc names

I have also read this and being cynical again, it just smells a bit funny.

They know the impact announcing an MMO with Elder Scrolls attached to the title will have and the knock on effect of box sales.

Yet they tell us, 'don't expect Skyrim online', but hey we are using the places, factions etc. 

Are they so special/important that its worth making a game based on this?  I just find it all a bit misleading.


On another note regarding the open world comment about Guild Wars2.  I have played in 2 Beta weekends and I will be playing when its released.  However, comparing GW2 open world with Elder Scrolls is a little bizzare.


Man... okay, seriously?

"Are they so special/important that its worth making a game based on this?  I just find it all a bit misleading."

If a game were placed in Scotland, would you expect it to have the usual Scottish places/cities? Or would you expect the game designer to say "oh my God, there was that Braveheart movie and now there is that Brave movie, no, we need to come up with a completely different Scotland! Let's give everyone a rasta and let them say 'mon' at the end of each sentence... or should we actually never set it in Scotland?"

Okay, simple question: if any TES game were not set in the TES universe, would you still play it as a TES game?

Probably not... despite the game mechanics feeling like a TES game it's just not the TES universe.

Does that answer your question?

"They know the impact announcing an MMO with Elder Scrolls attached to the title will have and the knock on effect of box sales. "

Actually, the only effect I have seen here is a bunch of "TES must never change!" cry babies whining around and calling the game doomed and bad...



Originally posted by chryses

 I have always been an Elder Scrolls fan dating back to Daggerfall.  Having hammered Skyrim all week, I can't see how the essential ingredients that make the series work, can be transferred into an online format.

1. Elder Scrolls is about exploring vast open landscapes that allows a player to get lost and find hidden dungeons, temples and interesting characters.
Online - I don't believe they can create a massive world with little or no instances.  Exploration doesn't feel right when 25 other players are stomping all over the same temple.

2. Its realistic in the sense that you come across a lone NPC and you stalk them not knowing if they are friend/foe and assisting or just killing them if you wan't.
Online - it will just be another spawn fest with multiple instances as everyone will be lining up to kill the same beast.

3. Its about complex combat, actual targeting and tactics. e.g. mid combat, swapping skills and spells whilst in pause mode. 
Online - Fallen Earth is the closest I have seen to using this in an online format. Its clunky at best. Due to the bandwidth and mass appeal they need to generate, its going to end up auto targeting or a very rudimentary combat system.

I am not trying to flame on this game, but as a massive fan of the series, I can't see how an online version can capture the essence of the single player game.  Just making another 3 faction warfare cookie cutter in the ES world stinks of a quick money grab from box sales.  I know its synical but after SWtOR and a few other releases, its hard not to feel this way for this game IMO, shouldn't be turned into an MMO for so many reasons.

Some games are just not made for the MMO genre and I really feel this is one of them.










Just because an MMO version of an IP doesn't have a feature that it could/would/should have based on the singleplayer games, that doesn't mean it's going to fail.

I always love it when ppl complain about the lack of space combat in SWTOR... yet at the same time, when you look at all the computer (not console!) games made with the SW IP how many feature space dogfights strongly?

And yet, people like these non-spacefight games...

Right, on your points (though this is completely pointless as you'll just dig in that it won't work yadda yadda yadda):

1. What you want is a place to yourself you can explore.

Fair enough... pick a low pop server! Make sure that it is an RPG server!

Problem solved.

2. Don't present character information! It is notghing complicated, it's just like not showing the character's name and can obviously easily included in the design.

That way you can stalk your NPC for weeks not kknowing that he is a lvl2 NPC... or maybe a lvl20 monster in disguise? Or another player who is actually mirrorstalking you?

3. Right, pause mode... you will have to say godbye to that because that would mean that the whole game universe would be paused for that time. Which actually always made me wonder how bullet time should work in Matrix Online...

So, now that you are done crying about your beloved pause mode, straighten up, straighten up down there too, and get ready to face... the life of battle instinct!

See, when I started MMORPGs and I came across the progressive weapon skills all I could get out was a *gulp*

You start of with one attack, if successful that may allow you within a certain timeframe to execute another stronger followup attack, and if that one where to connect then there would be another stronger attack you could use, etc.

In the same line: after a successful parade you'd be able to use a special skill with the next attack on the enemy if you are then standing to the right of the attacker, so it all came down to perfect timing where having pre-punch your buttons usually didn't do you much good: the attack that could have been the followup combo, bang!, you had already pressed your base attack as you weren't sure that the effect would be there and you didn't want to waste an attack...

Guess why I stayed away from those classes ;-)

(T)ESO could very well have a similar system where combinations play a much bigger role then just simple button1 - button1 - button1 - button3 - punching.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter 

Miracle rifles opposed to miracle plate armor that doesn't tire you and allow you to actually move?

My point is: it is a game.

If it is a master Kensai, maybe he is known by reputation.

If we go by realism all the concept of hit points and instant healing is silly.



I'm still a bit at a loss what you are trying to say (aside from trolling)...?

Yes, of course it's a game... and said game works on mechanics, like NPCs recting stronger to taunts than to attacks.

Is that bad?

Loke feels like the monsters/mobs should be clairvoiant and automatically know which role a character has i.e. he is a tank, he is a healer, he is a DPS, and attack them accordingly.

Fact is that if one was to take the simple availability of class/level information out of the game, you, the gamer, would first have to figure out which character has what role.

Which you could do by just standing there and observing (and probably getting shot to bits) or you could hope for the best that your guess to attack that guy is right.

Now, based on what would you make your choice? Armour? As only healer can wear clothes armour? Or staves? As only healers can wear staves? etc.

The trick here and now is that the enemy can easily sucker you into a trap if you go by that. That's why I brought up the Kensai but I could also have pointed at the classic D&D cleric in his armour.

If you don't know what is really going on you can easily make a fatale choice in combat...

And yes, the Kensai may be known by reputation... but do you every single character in every single game that you are playing?

"Kensai" in the context I'm using it is a character class going back to AD&D's Oriental Adventures.

It is not a title.

So, even a lvl1 Kensai would be fighting without armour because he believes that his swordskills make armour unnecessary.


Originally posted by evolpc

Let me start this off by saying I am a fan of the game. Was very excited about launch, etc. The issue I am having is not related to gameplay, as I have no complaints about that.

For those of you that are not aware, Funcom also sells "Starter Packs" for your character. There are a few different packages and they are an additional cost to you. It is basically a cash shop transaction. I purchased a pack that included good starter weapons as well as a faction jacket, pet, etc.

Funcom opted to force all users to claim their pre order bonus items as well as extra purchased items through the in game cash shop. They were unable to keep the shop running yesterday. It was up and down frequently. At one point while it was up, I attempted to claim the extra items I had purchased. The cash shop was unresponsive but I kept trying assuming it was just lagged. I never received my items but today if I try to claim them again the cash shop says I already claimed them.

I have filed 5 petitions on this without a single response from Funcom in 30 hours. I would not be nearly as upset if these were just bonus pre order items but I actually had to shell out extra cash to get this package. The items are meant to be used in the early game and are useless after that. I find myself waiting to play through until I get the items I paid for, otherwise I feel I would be wasting money.

I love this game but not so much that I am blinded to something like this. They SOLD this stuff to us. At that point they should have made sure they could deliver it as well as provide support when things like this happen. When you sell items in a cash shop like this I think you open yourself up to being held accountable for not delivering them even if they are virtual items.

I hope this does not incite flaming, as I will not engage in an argument. The facts are very simple and as a customer I am being disappointed. I would like them to refund the money for the extra package but they will not even respond. I am beginning to wonder if the petition system even works.

First up, I would put it down as though luck.

You claim that it was all Funcom's fault when it may as well have been on your end, because, frankly, the shops lagging behavior that you were describing may well have been just that, lag, and is usually more a prpblem with your ISP.

If you then make things worse by trying to force the action thru by constantly refreshing, yeah, really smart... *rolls eyes*

Obviously at some point the "cycle" was complete and FC was delivering the goods but you had probably started the cycle again.

I know all of this sucks... but it's shit happens and patience will get you a long(er) way.

Now, where you (and probably thousands of other gamers) are acting really juvenile is by raising ticket after ticket after ticket.

Man, how hard can it be for people to understand that your 1 support case just turned into 5?

Now go from there: 1000 cases turn into 5000, 10000 to 50000, etc. nice job guy, you just put yourself on a long waiting list because you and all the other "ooooh, no reaction from CS after 15 min, need to raise another ticket!" smarties have slowed the CS' response time quite a bit down.  

Best I can suggest is either try the livechat option already mentioned or just relax.

Heavens, it's a game! And not even a competetive game (though you apparently think so as you need to power your toon up from the start, or was it just the cool faction jacket you wanted?) so maybe try going about slow and who knows maybe half way thru Kingsmouth you get your stuff...

or maybe just don't play for a day or two? Don't know where you are but here it is frigging hot and sunny, so resting at a pool is the best option. ;-)

Originally posted by bishbosh

i dont know why there even needs to be roles. freeform class system + do w/e u want FTW

That may be a working concept in an established group but in randomer groups it's going to cause huge issues.

What you'll end up with is either having to take each person's word for what his character can do ("yes, of course I have healing abilities." - later: "well, you never said that you need area healing abilities, I only have some light to mid healing spells for individuals...")

or you have to run each character thru a screening process: "now, please, list all your abilities. thanks. we will get back to you once we have checked out all the other applicants."

And worst of all the gamer may not even be good with the abilities he is "hired" for...

I know, same can be true with a class character if said class allows multi-branching for the skills but at least you have an idea what you are getting yourself into bed with.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Then why do players ignore tanks in PvP, even if they call names to their mothers?

What about the natural reaction to hit those that hurt you?

What about the fact no one can shrug a axe hit on their heads as if it was nothing?

And will that kensai do much with an arrow or bullet in his eye?

Sorry but I don't really get your point?!

Taunts and players, that depends quite a bit on the skill/ability and how it works in PvP. In some games it may have little gaming effect which of course gives the player the choice to "overwrite" what would be the "correct" response, while in other games taunt cause more sever restrictions forcing the player to make the choice of whether he wants to go against the taunter full force or against another character with half his power.

Interesting would also be the aspect of actual roleplaying: the first thing (okay, one of the first things) is that in a RPG you are not playing yourself but a character, and depending on how that character is defined you may be "forced" to act in ways that you wouldn't e.g. stay silent/say dumb things if you are smart enough to have figured out that riddle but your character happens to be dumb as a bag of beans, etc.

So, any player ignoring a taunt would potentially very much play out of character.

Which obviously is not punished in MMORPGs but it's something to consider for your gaming experience. ;-)

The natural reaction to defend you against an attacker (potentially at the same time as being taunted - I assume that's what you were going for?) - see, as such we are talking game mechanics and they can only do so much.

Now, I'm sure you have seen action movies where this strongman gets attacked by a bunch of guys while mister super bad goon stays in the back taunting him.

The hero plows thru the mob not really caring about those "little pests" will maybe only start plugging them off when he is actually standing before mr big goon.

Why? Is that realistic? Not really... though one could argue that the adrenaline the body produces make you less rational and also reduces pain.

Your last 2 points, sorry, but they have nothing to do with what I said.

So... I'm not really sure what you are trying to say?

Of course would a Kensai have problems fighting with a bullet/arrow in his eye. Just as everybody else. So, you'd go around the attacking force and try to shoot out everybody's eye?

Of course, a game like GW2 is using miracle rifles, but try doing that with Brown Bess where you probably didn't get more than 3 shots of per minute against potentially fast moving targets... ouch. More likely it would be they dagger thru your eye than the other way round.

But the point I was trying to make with the Kensai was just that if we didn't know class and level but just went but "looks" i.e. armour we may easily get fooled.  

Originally posted by Isasis

Mass Effect 3...Dragon Age 2...and now SWTOR.


All have been heavily critizied. However, their older games...Mass Effect 1 and 2...Dragon Age 1...even before that...have been critically acclaimed. After they got bought by EA, it seems their games are no longer the quality they once were.

And SWTOR is already talking about turning free and losing a good portion of their servers. It did much horribly than anticipated.

Will you still buy Bioware games at release? Do you still enjoy Bioware's new games? Or are you disatisfied with their latest games they have made?

Oh man...

okay, first you shouldn't be listening to rumours! SWTOR is planned to be F2Plvl15, nothing more at this time. Which is not much different from what other MMORPGs have.

And most importantly, we don't even know the mechanics behind the F2Plvl15, it may just be that they are waiving the cost of the box if you want to keep on playing, just set up a sub.

But hey, speculation...

Now, you said it yourself BW has a long list of acclaimed winners under its belt, most obviously (for me) Baldur's Gate.

So yes, I would in theory give BW the benefit of the doubt when looking at buying one of their games.

But here is where I see you quite different than me:

You are a games junkie, me not. (I'm a movie junkie ;-) )

I bought ME at some point in time when it was cheap, didn't really play it, sold it, not because it was bad but because I just wasn't interested in it.

Never played any DA games.

Bought KOTOR1, ran like crap on the system I had back then plus I hated the controls, gave that one away.

Never bothered with ME2 or ME3 or KOTOR2.

Beta-tested SWTOR, basically just to see how bad it would run on my new laptop, found it surprising good, been playing it since early access.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't buy a game just because the BW logo is on it. Anybody who does that is in my mind rather stupid.

I look at whether this game could be interesting to me (usually), sometimes I will go by price, but I can still control myself and not jump on that next "superduper" game from my favorite company X.

Plus: I've come to mostly focus again on MMORPGs, so a singleplayer game would be less likely on my radar to pop up in the first place.

Now, should you ask if BW were to do another MMORPG would I buy that?

Well, the advantage with MMORPGs is that pretty much all of them offer beta test access (without having to pre-order/purchase the game) so yeah, if I got to test it and I'd like what I see there, yeah, I would buy another BW game.

A cheerleader in a short, short skirt and an even short top, all in variations of pink and white, with long pigtails and a huge lollypop I can lick on.

Not sure how this relates to this topic but you asked :-P

Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing about reducing the core roles is "dumbed down".

The fact that someone points out Shaman's purge ability brings up just one of many ways that each WOW class had plenty of little sub-roles they were playing in addition to their primary task.

The trinity itself is just slapping big simplified labels onto classes which in many cases can provide a variety of benefits (my shaman wasn't just a healer, but could also be an interrupter, a kiter, a purger, a cleanser, and/or a buffer.)

So really whether a game has a trinity or not says nothing about the true depth of a given class' playstyle.

Not really, but it does tell us that the mobs are dumb as doorknobs all of them. All trinity games have really stupid AI.

My issue with trinity is tanking, it makes the game dumber and more predictable. Add a better mob AI and remove all taunts and CC and the combat will become very different even if you keep everything else the same.

Aggro should be set on who the mobs easiest kill and who is most dangerous in the group, not on silly taunts. Do you really think a smart dragon or liche would be that dumb?

Well, I don't quite agree with you there because you look at it from a stats point, not from a "reality" point of view.

Think about RL for a sec: you are out at night, and a bunch of guys start shouting trash your way. For the sake of it, let's say they are kids so you assume you may be able to take them on.

On whom do you focus?

The "loudmouth" who is taunting you? The big fella who is quite but looks like he could land a good punch? The thing guy in the back who seems rather cool? Add what other characters you like... I'm sure you'd go for the loudmouth.

Just because you don't go rational about this but rather follow your hurt ego.

And yes, even dragons and liche have egos. So taunts make perfect sense. I mean c'mon, think Braveheart: showing your arse does very little damage to you (well, it could probably blind you or cause nausea...) but it's a perfectly effective taunt.

We players live in a MMORPG world of all information provided, level, class, etc. Imagine this were not the case! You feel like taking on that guy in robes? Oooops, happens to be a "kensai", a swordmaster who is so skilled with his sword that he'd see the use of armour as an insult to his craft. Dang!

You get where I'm coming from?

So, you want to make us believe that you didn't pick up one of those gazillion beta keys and gave the game a spin? That you didn't read up on it and what the game is about/like?

Instead you just bought the box, activated it and are now crying that it is not what YOU were expecting?

Sorry son, but that is just plain dumb!

I know, I know, those beta test are meant to be test tools for the developers to check their game... yeah, sure ;-)

They are marketing tools, demos, trials or at least I use them that way. And when I see that a game doesn't offer what I'm looking for I stay away from the game.

So, frankly, don't blame anybody but yourself for f***ing this one up. ;-)

I think the biggest mistake people are making with the "trinity" is look at it from a combat-centric angle.

Yes, like certain other people I love DAoC and love to reference it.

Especially when looking at a game like GW2 ;-)

But the thing is that both the PvP maps as well as the EB cry for a stealth class!

Not a stealth killer but a guy (or gal) able to sneak in and then... well, do things. Whether it is capturing a point, opening a door, disarming defenses, the list goes on and on.

Yeah, he might just be easy slush in combat, but heck, use him as a scout and you can avoid nasty mobs/player hordes on the prowl.

And again, if you expand him to good old D&D roles, yes, make him the Thief and let him do the detect traps, let him do the open locks, I mean c'mon, wouldn't it be too much fun if your "trinity" group just mastered The Dungeon Of Dooooooooom! and now sits in front of a nice big chest of goodies and nobody's there to open it? :-D

And yes, the "general supporter/utility guy": ever thought that everything is just too easy to access? Well, how about changing that?

Hey, look, we have reached The Chasm Of Eternity, now all we need to find is the bridge that leads across. - Oh, you mean that half-worn rope/piece of rubble? - Err...

Bring on the sup/util guy: cast a "repair" spell (maybe also good for those moments when your armour is down to 50%) and that rope looks much better. Or if the bridge is gone, well, bridge spell, flight spell, levitation spell, teleport spell, you pick, you choose, all there to get your party over.

Somebody already mentioned the Minstrel from DAoC and his speed buff, well, perfect for both PvE and PvP: "man, dem enemies are coming... *woosh* ...and are gone again... dang speed buffs!

You can come up with the weirdest (and smartest) concepts for tricks a sup/util guy may have up his sleeve, maybe even some for combat - like a money drop/xp boost due to a bard's singing of the heroics of the group, the ability to set up camp incl. defenses, item transportation obviously, etc.

Yes, again he is mushy in combat but, well, let's be fair: so is a healer... and a healer's role is by far more limited than that of a sup/util guy. ;-)


this relates to SWTOR how?

I mean we know that EA doesn't see any BW project (currently) as a high priority...

So... are we to asume that based on the OP's write-up EA is going to drop BW (and it's projects including SWTOR) completely in favor of trying to save its other EA branded projects to make the EA stock fly again?

Don't be daft!

Unless they actually decide to sell off BW completely - which I doubt as that would mean selling of they complete RPG house - both EA and stock holders will have to live with a nice round bundle that does include BW in the EA fold and where - in a nice two-way setup - things happening to EA may well effect BW and things happening to BW may well effect EA.

But that remains for time to tell how this will play out.

So *snooze*

Originally posted by Dallanon

Decison = made.


F2P before 2013.




WoW:MoP and GW2 will push them over the F2P edge FOR SURE.


Mark my prophetic words! lol


Weren't the other prophetic words "there will be pig-monkies flying out of my arse"? still waiting for that to happpen ;-) (j/k)

Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Stevenra

Yeah because playing games in which kids just steal their parents credit cards and buy items that should only be earned is a real fun way too play games....Get real any game that goes pay too win deserves to bomb.  Stop trying to speak for everyone that games the majority dosnt want this type of platform of paying.

But the majority does want F2P. The majority are playing F2P. The majority have chosen F2P over the few remaining sub models.

He isn't speaking for everyone. There are those of us who still prefer sub models. But, we need to come to grips that we are no longer the majority.

An interesting example is my nephew. He is 19 and going to a jr. college with an associates degree in game design. He loves fantasy rpg. He asked me what games I played, and I rattled off a list of sub-based mmos that I have enjoyed over the years. He visibly grimaced at each and everyone and in very stereotypical teenage gamer form said, without fear of hurting my feelings, 'Those games all suck. They suck hard'.

So I asked him why. He replied (paraphrasing)  "Cuz they all make you pay a sub fee. I'm never going to play a game that forces money from you without knowing you'll get something in return"

He was so certain, so assured with an attitude of 'everyone knows this'. He went as far as degrading WoW players for being gullible. And not because the game is simplified or cartoony or because of wellfare was because he thought all WoW players were idiots for playing a game with a sub fee.


Now granted this is just one kid - I don't mean to cover all future developers in the same blanket. However, it was obvious to me that his opinion was cemented in place and he was obviously surrounded by a slew of other gamers who felt the same. He was comfortable that his opinion was the majority - he had never met someone like me; he was shocked and dissappointed in my gaming habits. I was speechless too, as I had never met anyone in real life with his opinion.

To further, I supervise a lot of guys in their twenties. Probably about 1/3 of them game. Most have had some experience with an mmo - but most don't consider themselves 'mmo'ers' but 'gamers'. One of them played WoW for awhile, but is now playing D3, prior he was a DOTA and Starcraft player after leaving WoW. I told him I'd give him a scroll of resurection if he wanted to play with me but he vehemently said no. Why? Because he felt duped by paying a sub fee for those 2 or 3 years - why do that when there is so much F2P stuff out there? Again, like my nephew, he said this with the conviction that he was in the majority opinion. With his attitude, and the attitude of other of my employees plus with my nephew, entering the dev buisiness, holding all virtually the same sour opinion of sub fees, I had to come to grips.

I thought sub-based games were what the majority wanted - I found out it was just my generation of gamers.


I'm sorry but I fail to see how all of this is really relevant?

I mean we all know pretty well that ppl prefer to watch the latest movie for free over spending $10 for a ticket. That's why we have all that movie piracy out there. Does that mean that the studios therefore are releasing movies only for free to watch now?

And your nephew... seriously, let me guess: gets lots of money up the arse from his parents? As students in general do...

Otherwise he'd understand that game design is just another job, one where you hope to get paid. And if you don't get paid, well, all your enthusiasm will quickly take a dive when your meals end up being Rammen noodles on food stamps or you need to pull 10 hrs shifts at McD's...

Most F2P games start out with at least a "pay2" concept attached to it. Whe in the end they actually go completely F2P without even a item shop or anything to make money, the best the game designers can hope for is to use it as a showcase for their skills.

Now, that "ex-WoWer" you were talking about, ask him how much he is spending on games. I bet you he'll say "nothing mostly" because he gets them cracked from some friend or the other. Yeah, that is me and my friends almost 15, almost 20 years all over again: "why play a game you have to buy and then pay for again in order to be able to play?" "yeah, makes no sense with all those online FPS where you can play for free..." "yeah, but wait, we are playing new games every month..." "so?" "isn't that more expansive than paying a small fee to continue playing a game I really like?" "nah, why? We just crack the games and all is free..." "errr... well, I don't, I actually buy them..." "oh, look it's already that time, got to go mate."

Yes, games like D3 and SC are B2P games you can then play for free as much as you like. The funning thing though is that you pretty much have to pay out of your arse for anything new to be added to it: need more maps because the old ones are boring? wait for expansion pack, will only cost you $39.95.

In short: teens and tweens these days are basically not smarter then we and our friends were X decades ago, There is a good chance they'll grow out of their stupidity/rose coloured dream bubble... 

Personally, I think SWTOR has much better chances not going F2P.

1. F2P means loss of any revenue, unless you find another option i.e. advertising, item shop, vip access.

Let's be frank: would you like to sit there staring at the coca-cola dynamic ribbon twisting while SWTOR is starting up? Or find neon lights offering Bud's in all cantinas? What about Nvidia ads showing on screens at the spaceport? Thought so...

Item shops are, well, they are tricky. I had this as a bit of a fight with another player who claimed that most players would buy something every 30 days and therefore make BW lots of money. My experience is: I've maybe bought things in 4 item shops of different games over the last 6 years.

There was some race in DDO because I had actually bought DDO whioe it was still P2P and everybody who used to have a valid subscription and opted for transfer upon F2P go a good chunk of money to spend.

There was a costume set I bought for GW1 before I realized how crap the game actually is.

There was BFH where I got myself by way of some mag code (and a re-order of same issue claiming the original was lost ;-) ) some game cash to buy some cool outfit and nice weapon.

I have since then found that just watching a quick movie here or there is enough to add some cash back into the game's wallet.

And in that very same way I got myself the game cash in Requiem Online for a name change.

Even considering the price of the original DDO box, in total I've spend not even £20 in item stores!

Trying living off that!

"VIP"ing... well, the question is always where to draw the line... would VIP in SWTOR mean that e.g. you can play all classes while otherwise you can only play one class or just one faction? Or maybe you can only PvP as a VIP?

I don't think trying to figure out the best "VIP" option would be worse the energy.

And let's face it: no matter how much further the subscriber numbers drop, it will still generate at least some money. ;-)

2. Risking the license. If you look at WAR, EA/BW could (and maybe even should) have killed that horse a long while ago or at least made it F2P.

Yet, EA has obviously considered the license standing behind WAR and has now found an easy F2P cashcow to be raised up with that license: WoH. Imagine GW had pulled the license because WAR had to be considered a complete fail including going F2P!

The same is probably true if BW/EA wants to hold on to their SW license.

3. The subscription model is dying anyways! Well, we all remember the same lines when GW1 was released... and not much really happened except that too many MMORPGs were released and in the end coud only compete with each other on F2P level.

Subscription is here to stay because there will always be people who consider a fixed monthly price for full and complete access better than potentially spending (much) more in an item shop for individual access features.

4. There is no competition! Let's be honest, SWTOR is called a WoW clone... which it may or may not be (I've never played WoW so I couldn't say) but fact is it doesn't have Elves or Orcs but wookies and lightsabers!

Fantasy games are much more generic than SciFi MMOs. You can have games like Planetside2 or Firefall who are SciFi, but are just not SW. You could over the gamer a Starship Trooper, a Star Trek, A Battlestar Galactica, a Babylon 5, a Lexx, a Firefly MMO, they would still say it's not SW, and of course they are right. So, finding any competition for SWTOR is really hard, and as long as you are the only one offering you may as well charge for it as much as you like!

5. Population decline is a challenge but not a problem! To me it always made no point trying to tie countering a population decline with F2P as a countermeasure.

I mean of course, turning a game F2P will mean that a good many new and old players will come. Alas, will they stay? And if yes, to what point?

First, while BW is obviously working on adding features, will it be those that certain (PvP focused) ex-subscriber cry about? Because if not, well, they'll be in and out again before the door makes a full rotation.

The same holds true for PvE gamers who find new content for them to be lacking. A new gamer may actually find any number of issues, most perfectly documented somewhere in the SWTOR forum, like SWTOR not being SW or SWG, or there just not being enough new content outside the personal story quests to play thru the same planet arch and Heroic quests again with another class from that faction. etc. 

But let's assume people stay... in your books you can claim that you had say 3 Mio gamers each night, but there is no money these people are bringing in... not good!

6. It's all about prestige! EA has apparently no problem running DAoC despite their low numbers. Why? Who knows? And to be honest, with all the doom-n-gloomers I think BW will be much more happy to give them a one-finger-salut saying that despite all those F2P crys the game actually stays P2P!

Originally posted by Vutar

Why do a few people want to turn MMO's into FPS games?

It's actually not "a few people", on neither end, game designer or player.

FPS are quick junk/fast food-like: you log in, you play for a map or 3, you log out again and have your fix.

If you as a player get an extra reward for your character i.e. new gear, new level, etc., cool, even better.

For the game designer it's really just designing a small map with very limited options, something that you see even the least professional people turn out en mass in FPS.

So, why try to open up a first class restaurant and get people into it in the early evening hours when you know perfectly well that having a chippie next to a nightclub is guaranteed to bring in a strong crowd all starved and not really caring if those potatoes are fresh or a week old ;-)

Originally posted by silvermember
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Shadystuff

People like familiarity, and are afraid of change

It has nothing to do with change, familiarity, nostalgia or the price of tea in China.

I liked the systems in the older game more.  I understand that for the newer generation of gamers it is comforting for them to label old school gamers opinions as "nostalgia" or some other buzzword but that doesn't make it true.

You might not think its those thing, but I am pretty sure it is. It's OK everybody goes through the same things, that's why you always hear the older people saying "today's music is crap". Do they believe today's music is crap, ya, they believe it is crap. we all go through that, I know I do still and I am not even that old yet.

The problem is that they usually seem to conveniently forget that maybe just maybe they are not exactly the target audience anymore.

Ouch, seriously bad example there!

Face it, compare to music of the 50s, 60s, 70s, even 80s, today's music is mostly crap. Or just copied.

And no, it's not just a matter of the target audience! Because the target audience would just reflect the taste, not the actual quality of the music.

So, while maybe some things can be filed under "nostalgia", for a good part it's just that game designers these days don't dare to go with more complex game mechanics for fear for not hitting the "target" audience's taste... which is sadly for the most simply, the quickest, the easiest type of gaming rather than anything more complex.

Yes, today's gamers are the kids you hear on the bus playing some sort of Micky Mouse voiced vocals over a techno track consisting of a 20 sec loop played over and over again...

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