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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

All Posts by Fearum

All Posts by Fearum

57 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last
1140 posts found
When the timer hits 0:00:00, the world will end?
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Mithrundir
I like my mmo's to be as realistic as possible, instances aren't realistic, so I would much rather prefer an open world (sandbox) mmo over a theme park. Same thing with my pvp, doing an instanced 12v12 or whatever in the same instances over and over isn't realistic, so I play open world rvr pvp (much more realistic).

MMORPG PvP is highly unrealisticand open world PvP is more unrealistic then tournament style PvP. 

Also I find instanced dungeons much more realistic then open world ones since it is highly unrealistic to have multiple groups camping the same dungeon for hours waiting for respawns.

That's why I think themeparks should just be lobby based games, most people who play them only port around to what they are doing so why would they need a world.

An open world is good for a sandbox style game with PvP, territory conflicts, resource hot spots and anything else worth fighting over.

F2P sucks.
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by shalissar
Originally posted by zzax
Originally posted by rodarin

Simple solutions are always the simplest. Make a PvE server and a PvP server.

This is basically the worst possible solution. Make the game that sucks at both.

 

 

I don't follow this conclusion, how exactly would it suck at both? How is not possible for them to do this without mucking it up, can you elaborate on that?

Because a good game will be designed around either the inclusion or exclusion of pvp. If it's possible to simply have a pvp server and a non-pvp server than that means the game couldn't have been designed around having pvp and designed around not having it. The games would have to be vastly different from each other, and that point, why not just make different games?

That seems to be where the argument is bottle necking  Holo, it seems they are stuck on talking about a game where PvP is a addon feature and we are talking about a game designed around PvP as the main feature.

A game that is built around territory and resource control is not going to make sense if they had a PvE server, just as if you had a game built around following a story from ! to ? PvP is not going to make much sense. 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
I'm not implying it. I'm starting it outright.

When pvp player attacks a pve player the pvp player is limiting the pve players freedom. When a pve player asks for systems that limit a pvp players ability to attack them the pve player is limiting the pvp players freedom.

Some freedoms are not compatible. The ability to attack anyone is not compatible with another person's desire to not be attacked.

It's only a question of which limit do you prefer.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Why the hell is this person playing a game where there is PvP if they are so worried about freedom? Why is this person even playing a MMO when they seem to want a single player game?

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
That's right. The players are restricting other players freedom.

The moment a players hinders another, the second player had less freedom. They are no longer free to do what they wanted. Only the pvp player remains free to do what they want.

 

The same situation you seem to be hanging on is about a game designed around PvE that throws PvP into the mix as an after thought. This freedom you are talking about was given up when the player decided to opt in to a PvP server or area so the argument is moot.

I don't see your logic in all of these freedom arguments. 

Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Fearum
 

I'm talking about the entire game world built around being full loot PvP, not having PvP thrown in as an extra feature. You take any of those games and their first and foremost designs were based around PvE. In a PvE centered game you really have no reason to PvP in the world, most usually add an arena type feature which is nothing close to what I think we are talking about here. 

Name games that fit your criteria for full loot - I'm shocked you don't consider the first two valid. If they are from the 90s, no I wasn't playing MMOs then. Warhammer may have had a PVE feel but it was built completely around PVP. Did you even read what I typed or are you just coming up with retorts quickly.

There are NONE. Darkfall is the closest to what I'm talking about but its not the best model to base anything off of. I tried Warhammer but it didn't stick for me, plus at that time in my life I was not really gaming much at all. I'm looking forward to see where they go with Crowfall and I backed Camelot Unchained because they seemed to be focusing on what I want in a game. Make PvP the center of your game and design it from there, what I'm saying is most of the games you mentioned even though you you opted in to PvP were not designed to be centered around PvP.

I'm talking about games coming out, not the past. I want to see a game designed fully around these mechanics and not having them as an after thought or a different server rule set.

Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by Robokapp
 

because nobody has your tastes.

Crowfall and Camelot Unchained say differently.

Both niche games (which is fine - I am a fan of both - nothing wrong with niche - just saying)

 

I gave up on games for masses since they always water down everything to include everyone. I see your list you posted and I play 0 games on that list. I don't play a game because everyone else is playing it, I play them because they look fun for what I want out of a game. I have no problem with the big AAA games going away, I think more diversity in the games geared toward more niche audiences is a good thing and can only be good for the genre.

Originally posted by Robokapp
 

because nobody has your tastes.

Crowfall and Camelot Unchained say differently. Well Crowfall maybe not since it seems to reset after a period.

Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by deniter
Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by nariusseldon

If you cut out the open world, and did something like warframe, it is no more expensive than a online shooter.

MMOs are not meant to be anything. If so, it would not have abandoned the open world design, and become so solo friendly. It is just another type of game, hoping to make some money.

A "properly designed MMORPG" would retain playerbase, subscription and-or free to play. The reason why today's MMOs do not retain playerbase, is their design.

What he said.

If developers want a higher retention rate they have to design their games to last longer, either by adding content or using timesinks. We all know how easy to fulfill the former is for developers and for some reason the latter gets hate from the gamers side.

This will result as one month wonder MMOs that goes F2P within the first 6 months and lose 70% of their initial playerbase. And then we talk how markets have changed and people have lost interest for MMOs and yada-yada.

If you abandon open world and make it solo friendly, you have created completely another type of game, which attracts a certain kind of gamers, but they are not MMO gamers, so cut the crap of shot-term MMOs - there is none.

I think the lobby games are a great way for PvE players to play games. A PvE based game really doesn't need an open world as they are only in it to run from ! to ? over and over again. Even the dungeons now are queued up for and ported to them so there is no reason for the world to exist for those.

Now, if you have a game based on full loot PvP where the object is to control territory and resources that is a whole other beast in its own and an open world is pretty much a necessity. 

Seriously?

Yeah why not? I don't play the PvE games because they are so boring, running from hub to hub I usually just fall asleep at the keyboard. There is not really any reason for them to have an open world when you think about it.

Originally posted by deniter
Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by nariusseldon

If you cut out the open world, and did something like warframe, it is no more expensive than a online shooter.

MMOs are not meant to be anything. If so, it would not have abandoned the open world design, and become so solo friendly. It is just another type of game, hoping to make some money.

A "properly designed MMORPG" would retain playerbase, subscription and-or free to play. The reason why today's MMOs do not retain playerbase, is their design.

What he said.

If developers want a higher retention rate they have to design their games to last longer, either by adding content or using timesinks. We all know how easy to fulfill the former is for developers and for some reason the latter gets hate from the gamers side.

This will result as one month wonder MMOs that goes F2P within the first 6 months and lose 70% of their initial playerbase. And then we talk how markets have changed and people have lost interest for MMOs and yada-yada.

If you abandon open world and make it solo friendly, you have created completely another type of game, which attracts a certain kind of gamers, but they are not MMO gamers, so cut the crap of shot-term MMOs - there is none.

I think the lobby games are a great way for PvE players to play games. A PvE based game really doesn't need an open world as they are only in it to run from ! to ? over and over again. Even the dungeons now are queued up for and ported to them so there is no reason for the world to exist for those.

Now, if you have a game based on full loot PvP where the object is to control territory and resources that is a whole other beast in its own and an open world is pretty much a necessity. 

Originally posted by greenreen


Nah, not the only ones. I've played Darkfall and Haven and Hearth. Both were full loot. Mentioned both of them in other posts in this thread but I don't expect you to have read the whole thing. I'm mentioning PVP in those games because when I get the choice of a PVP or PVE server I've usually chosen the PVP version. Ryzom I did group PVP in the world for settlement fights and in LOTRO I played the monster player side instead of your normal toon. And I played Warhammer - who didn't play that for the PVP. I think that's indicative of liking PVP to put yourself into it intentionally. I left GW2 when they talked about putting in a gear grind and a dungeon because I spent all my time in the PVP zones. I kinda' know from my history that PVP suits me. But again, I don't see these games as just PVP - PVP and crafting are what I do most and sandboxes usually have good crafting so give them up. Make some more because I'll take 'em.

I'm talking about the entire game world built around being full loot PvP, not having PvP thrown in as an extra feature. You take any of those games and their first and foremost designs were based around PvE. In a PvE centered game you really have no reason to PvP in the world, most usually add an arena type feature which is nothing close to what I think we are talking about here. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aeander
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Aeander

You said an MMO. Not an instanced, 4-man Cooperative Shooter. 

some MMOs are mostly, or all instanced gameplay. Warframe, LoL, WoT .... plenty of examples.

And may be mmos can ditch its MMO-ness and become a instanced 4-man coop shooter .. that works too. Particularly for new games.

 

 

You literally didn't name a single MMO there. You named a lobby shooter, a MOBA, and ... an RTS?

You can keep repeating that .. but this site, massively.com, mmofront, and many reviews considers WoT, a lobby instanced game, a MMO.

So you can keep repeating, and i will keep on using the common usage from these sites.

It could be considered a sub genre in a genre. The MMORPG term was made a long time ago when there was just a handful of games that fell into its category, today we have thousands so its time to start dicing up the term and delegating games into sub genres. 

To your initial question, yes they could do that and it seems they are doing that with B2P games. ESO seems to be heading in that direction with the way they are selling DLC where you don't have to be a certain level to do them. You can buy them and do it whatever level you are without it being to hard. Is it a good thing? Yeah why not, the game seems to be designed around that type of model and tends to be a highly single player game with the option to group up.

There is still room in the market for open world games if done right, the hard part is finding what is right. You don't need a population of 8 million players to be successful, you just need enough to keep you in the black.

Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Freedom means exactly freedom from something. Freedom from tyranny. Freedom fun oppression.

That is exactly what the word means.

If you are forced it is not freedom. If i am being hunted i am not free. If I'm forced to fight i am not free. If i am constantly being beaten i am not free.

Freedom from something is exactly what it means.

If you're playing a game where this is all possible you are entering into it at your own risk and have no argument. The freedom you have is to not play a game that does not cater to what you want. If you like to play a game that leads you around from ! to ? in a safe environment where the only thing that can attack you is pools of npc mobs in a spawn point, than you have the freedom to do so. Don't play a game that is not for you, it's that easy. 

Why is it always that extreme though. Either you love full loot gank a thons or you quiver in a corner frightened of the world and need everything boiled before you touch it. I was clear in my original post that I don't have anything against PVP itself but that hasn't stopped the extremists from going on and on.

A few times now people have thrown around carebear and WOW and you aren't tough enough to hang out with us. You would think these games are mafia initiations the way some of the people talk who consider themselves the toughest of the tough. Are there drive-by MMO fruitings going on or what in the hardcore minds. Sorry but I do imagine the gankers as the guy in his mom's basement calling out for cheetos because he's camping a noob.

Isn't there something in the middle - sure is - a little something called compromise that people don't like to think about. A cookie for you and a cookie for me and we all get crumbs on our fingers. You keep offering me the cookie monster plushie when I want a shortbread cookie. You may like that dark chocolate cookie with sprinkles but sprinkled souls don't make my tummy feel well. With some work toward systems that not only reward but punish aligned behavior can't all side play their way in the same place.

If I just wanted to PVP as my whole game I'd play a MOBA or a FPS. It makes me wonder why gankers don't and it still comes back to needing some form of unfairness on their side - an even match of 10 vs 10, heresy, we like 5 vs  one and PVE is for suckers. Does it even make sense to play an MMO over those other games if all you want is pure PVP and anyone who wants a break sometimes is a carebear cuddling exclamation point chaser. I don't even know why that crap comes up - we are talking about sandboxes not themepark quest games. Both WOW and RIFT I played on PVP servers and leveled on them. I think I've told my stories here about protecting ppl trying to level in Stranglethorn who were getting attacked by Alliance constantly - that was where my main hung out when not raiding. It was a responsibility to us back then to protect those coming up from someone much higher level than them who two shots them. I literally waited for someone to complain in chat then came over and protected them. Even in a themepark game I stick around PVP. You are proving my point to suggest a themepark game, there aren't enough PVP games that are sandbox and not full loot and the future doesn't look bright in new releases. Just saying. 

I saw someone mention a building game that looks like it's for kids and other places that are only PVE but again, I don't think PVP + Sandbox has to equal full loot maelstroms.

People only have one view on here and its black or white. You are either the extreme griefer or the extreme carebear with no middle ground.

I like the games like Darkfall where you never know who is around you, where the world is always changing politically and there is more to do than quest and run dungeons. I don't like fighting mindless npc's, there is no challenge in that. People are unpredictable, you never know how they will attack or use the terrain to fight you. Darkfall has a lot wrong with it so don't hang on that as my example, I don't currently play it because of everything wrong with it. Nobody in guilds I was in when playing Darkfall set out to go camp noobs or grief people that I can remember, usually if we killed a noob we would rez and give him some stuff. There was no return on doing it, the fun part was getting into large fights with other guilds over territory or resources.

ESO was a pretty good game, but I literally couldn't play it longer than an hour because I would fall asleep because the world was so boring. There was never any danger to anything, you knew where everything was already and just ran around like a messenger delivering goods and services. That type of game is fine, its not for me but I'm not over there complaining that I want an open world with full loot PvP, it wouldn't work in their game structure. You have to design a game around that type of play for it to mean anything.

WoW and Rift were your experiences in open world PvP, both horrible in that respect because there was no reason for it. The games were not designed to be like that so obviously it just was a tacked on extra for them. Go play a real game that was designed around open world PvP to get a true meaning of it. 

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Freedom means exactly freedom from something. Freedom from tyranny. Freedom fun oppression.

That is exactly what the word means.

If you are forced it is not freedom. If i am being hunted i am not free. If I'm forced to fight i am not free. If i am constantly being beaten i am not free.

Freedom from something is exactly what it means.

If you're playing a game where this is all possible you are entering into it at your own risk and have no argument. The freedom you have is to not play a game that does not cater to what you want. If you like to play a game that leads you around from ! to ? in a safe environment where the only thing that can attack you is pools of npc mobs in a spawn point, than you have the freedom to do so. Don't play a game that is not for you, it's that easy. 

Which actually IS the solution most people choose, and why sandbox games with open world are doomed to always be niche games. :P

Thats fine, doomed is a rather drastic word to use. I guess if you like camping one spawn with 50 people waiting for the one mob so you can get to your next fetch quest is a populated fun environment, then good on you. You have 1000 games out there just for you already but you are here complaining about 1 of what? 5 games that are designed around PvP full loot?  

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Freedom means exactly freedom from something. Freedom from tyranny. Freedom fun oppression.

That is exactly what the word means.

If you are forced it is not freedom. If i am being hunted i am not free. If I'm forced to fight i am not free. If i am constantly being beaten i am not free.

Freedom from something is exactly what it means.

If you're playing a game where this is all possible you are entering into it at your own risk and have no argument. The freedom you have is to not play a game that does not cater to what you want. If you like to play a game that leads you around from ! to ? in a safe environment where the only thing that can attack you is pools of npc mobs in a spawn point, than you have the freedom to do so. Don't play a game that is not for you, it's that easy. 

Originally posted by Moirae
Because there are alot fewer hard core pvp'rs than there are everyone else. 

Why does everyone else get so butt hurt when a game is not made for everyone else? I personally don't like the mass appeal games like GW2, ESO or WoW and want a game like this. This and Camelot Unchained are the only two games I am looking forward to in the future so far and am glad to see companies finally splitting away from the normal boring same old fetch quest games.

Originally posted by Allein

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/1717-020415-update-from-the-founders/page-8#entry42896

"Pretty sure this was previously answered, but we are *NOT* f2p.  It's not the right model for this experience in our view.  More details on the Crowfall business model will come out before the countdown ends."

No speculation needed.

Very Nice! This just shot to #2 on my radar of games to watch! Will most likely be the second game I back on Kickstarter.

Originally posted by Adjuvant1
Originally posted by aesperus
The problem, as has been observed for the better part of a decade now, is that most people only find one of those roles fun. DPS. Furthermore the amount of responsibility and pressure put on the other two roles is insane.

Dps isn't a role in trinity.

Yes it is, support has been long gone in trade for dps.

I always thought that DAoC did roles the best and was surprised/let down when WoW and later games came out and they went with less, narrowing them down to pretty much what we have today. With the Trinity they took multiple class types and condensed them down into the 3 roles. I would love to see them go back to having a larger number of class specific specialty roles instead of the generic Healer, Tank and DPS.   
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