its F2P, the greatest thing we have ever seen and the future of all futures. /sarcasm off
 

Are you really bitching about a launch of a f2p game? Does it really ever even have a launch since you just purchase things from a cash shop and get the game for free anyway.

I suppose you can say they did have a launch, of the cash shop.

Keep pushing those f2p trash games, the world needs more.

For one dudes are spamming to buy large treasure maps for a lot more than they even give in return - guy might have gotten the gold legit possibly but 20k per map for as many large maps as you can sell him - uh huh......  You just hope AV is monitoring that guy and the others.

above me

Many players have multiple accounts, its easy to run the game in windows mode and have one, two, three or more all in the safe zones mining, chopping wood, picking cotton every three hours. You can also chat with yourself  probably like the guy that buys maps for a lot more than they are worth to try and drive up prices.

I thought the show was pretty boring with crap effects, like most shows on SciFy. I only was able to stay interesed in it up to about the half way point then just lost interest. Will not be watching future episodes.

Originally posted by Shaigh

Gameplay level 1-10 doesn't mean a thing and I want to see proper RvR action and PvE-group combat before I jump to any conclusions. With that said, I was happy to see a fight with a mudcrab, nothing is more TES than mudcrabs.

HAHA that mudcrab almost handed him his ass too. Dude never used any of his abilities except the standard fireball. Yes the graphics looked rough, but most games don't put out the full polish until later versions so really can't look at that too much. Seems like they are trying to dial in the networking side of things still, only the second small beta so really nothing much to doom and gloom about yet. The gameplay looked smooth so far though.

Still need to see some PvP since that will be the reason I'm interested in this game the most. I'm sure the PvE will be fine, as long as its not easymode.

AH's have their place in games that are designed to have them, this one sounds like its not designing around an AH for tradable goods and you will have to seek out people who can craft said goods. How is this bad? I don't know because it fits the game design, sitting in a AH playing the market does not fit in here. If you want to be a market player you have to attively do so. Saying you want an AH just because game X and Y have it does not fit here.

For an example, say you want a nice sword and the town you are in has lots of crafters but none are specialized in swords, you have to ask around and find out where you can get a great one made. You find somebody who tells you there is a master swordsmith that hangs around an Inn a few towns over, so you set out to find this Inn. It might be a dangerous road to get there but hey you want a sword, along the way you run into another of your realm mates who tells you that there is a small group of enemies around but not sure where they went. You tell him your going to an Inn at said town and he agrees to run along with you because he now wants to check out this other players swords. So you both set out on your way when all of a sudden you get cc'd and 3 enemies run over a hill, you break cc and quickly take out the caster and your realm mate is getting beaten to a pulp so you rush over to aid and almost down the second guy but there is another mage on the hill that cc'd you again just long enough for them to run off. You and your mate go to chase but they are too far off and not worth the hastle since your almost to the town you decide to keep on going. You roll into the Inn and ask around for the swordsmith and the Inn keeper gives you a  beer and you tell of the enemies that you confronted right outside town. You learn the swordsmith had wife aggro and will back in a few and get a few others hanging in the inn to go out and see if you can find the enemies which got away until he gets back.

Now that sounds to me like a better option than, go over to ah look up sword, find sword, purchase sword, open mail, equip sword.

Dungeon finders have their place in other games that are more like lobby games, you sit there until your Q pops then you port to said instance to plow through the content to get the shiny at the end, this game will not have instances or npc drops so really no point in wasting time with a group finder. You will have to participate in raids with groups of others to accomplish feats, like raiding other realms camps or taking keeps. Not sure where a dungeon finder fits in here but I don't see a point in having one. Simply asking people you are running around with to join a group seems hard I know, but it will probably be the best way to find one if your solo and not in a guild.

Solo story lines are fun in certain games which do them well and are designed around said story, they all run out when you get to an end though. This game will have some story and lore but not sure about a main quest line and really don't see a need to have them just to have them past a tutorial type area at the very start. Its a hard concept to understand when you're so accustomed to being led around from ! to ? So I can see where the confusion would be after being let loose on the world.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by gylnne

This warning coming from Mark Jacobs in a recent article he did which included his opinion on the unsustainable f2p model so many games are using.

 

"Camelot Unchained creator and long-time MMO veteran Mark Jacobs has warned of an impending free-to-play “apocalypse” in three to five years time, thanks to a rush towards unsustainable free-to-play models. He predicted to VG247 that developers will close and publishers stand to lose a lot of money.

“The whole free-to-play thing isn’t going away tomorrow,” Jacobs stressed, “but let’s just see what happens in three to five years – and I’m betting closer to three – where free-to-play will become just another model. Right now you’ve got everybody chasing it, going ‘Isn’t this great? Free to play, we’re going to make so much money’”.

Jacobs felt that many developers and publishers are chasing the free-to-play market in the hope that a small percentage of players will actually lay down money on micro-payment items. He doesn’t see it as an economically viable strategy."

Continue reading here:  f2p heading for disaster

Mark Jacobs is an idiot if he actually believes any of thsoe things, let alone actually said it.  For the sake of argument I will just assume he actually said it so to this I will reply with the greatest statement about F2P EVER!

 

A question was asked to Jack Emmert about F2P at the GenCon 2012 D&D Digital here is a link, starts at the 10:34 mark:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5QFqtpWO1s

 

If anyone knows me I am a big comicbook fan, I spend alot of money on Comic Books, over $500,  Some people only buy 1 comic per month.  Some dont spend anything but instead just watch TV but the key is if I am into Comic Books I can easily spend $500 and thats what we we are trying to do with Neverwinter.  If you enjoy the game, we are not making anyone pay, but there will be avenues for me to spend money because I enjoy it. 

 

Bascially he is saying, there are plenty of people who wish to spend on something they enjoy, it is human nature to do so and this is exactly what the F2P does.  It allows those who want to spend $hundreds$ a month on the game and can afford it the opportunity to invest in their passions, their Hobbies and their wants.  Human nature is to aquire things we enjoy and this is the basis for F2P and it will never ever go anywhere.

 

I think MJ only says these things because he realizes his game is going to be a sub based game that is only going to get 50k subscriptions.  Niche as it is, that is his perrogative, but happily F2P is not going anywhere, its the P2P that is in serious jeopardy here Mr. jacobs.

Except a comic book is an actual physical thing, not just pixels online. If that floats your boat, more power to ya.

Originally posted by Celcius

 

Just want to clear something up here...so you don't like B2P games? Did you buy Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, or anything else along those lines? Those games are essentially B2P games with a shorter shelf life. They come out at full price. They provide content DLC for money. Hell, they give you less content then B2P MMOs do since they generally charge for additional content.

I think part of it is what I just mentioned. Games in general are starting to adopt to MMO style payment models. This is something the entire medium is facing, not just MMOs. The thing is about MMO players who are keen on paying a sub (and probably pay one already) feel like they need to defend it because they pay or have paid for it. I guess they feel they are in some sort of VIP lounge that only the cool kids who pay a sub can enter.  Alot of these guys try to convince people, themselves included, that when you pay a subscription you get a higher quality product. This is simply not true anymore. Some would argue that it has never been true.

So let's clear something up, you think Skyrim should of been F2P? How would that work my friend, I would like to hear your brilliant plans on how to carry the F2P movement over to single player games.

I didn't realise we were debating single player games here.

Originally posted by cronius77
Mark is right and statistics prove it . If he was wrong , wow would be free to play and not still have over 9 million subs. Oh yeah the conspircy on this site is wow hasnt got those numbers its all china paying by hours!  WOW is a great state to this day like it or not and no free to play game yet can boost those numbers but league of legends. Free to play isnt the holy grail of new gaming except by companies that were failing to begin with games that were mediocre at best. The only game that did not immediately need to go free to play i can think of was lotr online but their sub numbers were not even great to begin with. All free to play does is make it so servers are busier , you can see games like lotr online and even SWTOR are still laying off people now , but yet BRAG about how free to play saved them or made them so much money.  If a game is good word of mouth alone makes it money , regardless of a sub and I can tell you from playing wow for years and still having a sub I know if blizzard was to say hey we want to charge 19.95 a month sub , there is droves of people that would continue to do it and just grip about it because a lot of people love wow .

True, because people actually like the game. A concept that a few people here don't really understand it seems. People want stability and a game they can play with familiar people. Yes there is room for F2P/B2P games, I don't like them and no matter how much bitching others will do I still will not like them, but saying a game will fail just off the pay model alone is pretty asinine.

Debating pay models is fun and all but it all falls on the actual game to win over fans, if it can't it will fail.

Originally posted by Rthuth434

Originally posted by Fearum

Your right in a way Alders, most new mmo's seem to play more like an FPS where you log on every few days and pew pew for a bit then log on to another one and pew pew there. I don't want that type of game, I want a game where I can invest time and play it with other like minded players over a longer period of time. It may be over for the masses so that is why I have to turn my attention to niche games now that focus on what I would like out of a game instead of the carousel type games that we have now. 

that's cool, but what the creator charges you doesn't dictate if the game will be like this. take any of your hated f2p games, change the model and none of them magically becaome a for us, by us niche game that caters to your values. MJ is going to make such a game, that's good. but he's only saying what benefits his business in these interviews. payment model either way is a foolish rallying cry, and they overwhelming amount of shitty p2p mmo's should be pretty sobering evidence of that for you. 

this site especially is pretty much 90% peopel disappointed with every mmo out.....and you guys were liek this from as long as i can remember...early 2000's before even WoW launched.. virtually everything was p2p then.

What is your point? He can speak his mind on any topic just like anyone here that can type info into making an account.

Well its my choice to back this game, I think he can do it and am willing to dish out $110 to maybe see it made. Why is that threating to you that I want a game like this to be made?

I want a game that I can play for long time, there are plenty of games for you out there that you can jump around for a year playing a different F2P title each week.

Originally posted by Alders

 

 

Best post so far.

 

I think we should stop lumping all FTP into the same category since there are some truely terrible models within this system.  It all comes down to execution and not nickel and diming players to death with every little thing.

The fact that MJ's game is set to release right around the time of his prediction is also laughable.

 

The real reason FTP is here to stay is because the era of people playing 1 MMO for years and years is over.

Your right in a way Alders, most new mmo's seem to play more like an FPS where you log on every few days and pew pew for a bit then log on to another one and pew pew there. I don't want that type of game, I want a game where I can invest time and play it with other like minded players over a longer period of time. It may be over for the masses so that is why I have to turn my attention to niche games now that focus on what I would like out of a game instead of the carousel type games that we have now. 

Originally posted by Rthuth434

Originally posted by Fearum

Where are the invested players in these F2P games? Oh thats right there is no commitment to those games because they cater to people who just want a quick fix and then they are on to the next thing.

just like all the P2P MMO's that held 90% of their playerbase for a grand total of 34 days...?

And they are now F2P and doing great? LOL

A bad game is a bad game no matter what the pay model, not sure what your point it here but I think it was an attempt to be witty?

I think they should have just died instead of hanging around like a leach. They will eventually though.

Originally posted by Celcius

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Celcius

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by boxsnd
We will see if his prediction is right. I predict exactly the opposite. F2P/B2P will flourish and P2P will die out with WoW.

I predict you are half right. I think the whole genre is going to be in trouble by then.

Business models are not the issue. pisspoor quality MMORPGs are the issue. Create a quality product and people will pay for it. Once you have a quality product, you can then figure out the best business model. But we can all see how dollar signs have driven this industry since the (anomalous) success of WoW. Developers have lost sight of why gamers play and have zeroed in on their wallets. It shows.

MMORPGs weren't originally mainstream games. I believe they will eventually either die out or return to their roots. I also think there will be forks. Gw2 could potentially be the pioneer to such a fork....A hybrization from action games. But in the end, I don't think they will be what we call(ed) MMORPGs

There has not been too many good MMOs for sure. You are right, but I think we are reaching the tail end of that cycle. GW2 has been a huge success -- the biggest since WoW-- and is seeing more initial success then WoW did initially as well. A big reason for this is the B2P model. I think that is the direction "AAA" quality MMOs will go. Games like TESO and Wildstar look to be promising. I think that the future of this genre is fine, but I also think that there will be more quality games coming. From my current perspective the only thing that could screw up TESO and Wildstar at this point is...a sub model.

I think your wrong and the millions of players still playing WoW agree. People don't care what the pay model is as long as the game is good and keeps them playing. Your trying to factor in this current crop of failed mmo's that had to go to F2P to try and recoup some of the money they lost from bad decisions, yes there will always be a few die hard fans that stick around buying stuff from the cash shops, but doesnt that make the game a niche game?

B2P is a funny model, your basically paying a box price for a F2P model game. Now you say that was a huge success, how are you judgeing this huge success? It might have been from launch, but this genre isnt about quick money making titles, it used to be a marathon and about longevity.

The millions of people playing WoW are playing WoW because they have been playing it forever. They are commited to the game, invested to it, and that won't go away anytime soon. As far as the rest of us who play other --newer games, this is not the case. The rest of the industry (which at this point is far bigger then WoW) is constantly jumping from game to game. There are a few who stick around with their sub based MMOs, but for the most part they are sticking with F2P / B2P games. GW2 is a huge success and you are just blinding yourself with World of Warcraft if you can't see this. Just look up some NC Soft earnings reports. They are making the company more money then ever because of it. 

Your ignorance of the B2P model is apparent here. A f2p game restricts you, alot of times on content, whereas a B2P game does not. You buy GW2 and you get the whole game. You don't have to pay a cent. You can see and play all the content there is completely for free. That is not a F2P model. F2P models restrict your ability to play the game the way you want to or restrict the amount of content available to you. 

The fact that they lost subs, once again, after an expansion launched shows just how well that game is doing. Honestly, the game is going to continue to lose subs every quarter just as it did after Cata. Every expansion they will get back some, but I expect it won't be for long. 

Where are the invested players in these F2P games? Oh thats right there is no commitment to those games because they cater to people who just want a quick fix and then they are on to the next thing.

Originally posted by Celcius

Originally posted by observer

Originally posted by Fearum
[mod edit]

Subscription models are even worse.  You have to pay monthly for a service, after the initial purchase of the product.  And if you don't like it, well, too bad, because you aren't allowed to play the game anymore if you're not paying.  I'm guessing you never paid for services such as, television, phone, or isp., because if you did, you would know how their services work., and they aren't always good.  Let's not forget the competition either, where there is either none or services just as bad the one you don't want.  LOL silly consumers indeed.

Yeah its kind of funny that someone claims they are making you pay for a F2P model game after an initial purchase on B2P and there has been like 3 B2P games. Guild Wars 1, which did not even have microtransactions until after the (2nd?) expansion, GW2 which has the most generious cash shop out there which does not provide any gameplay advantage whatsoever and lets you get everything without paying a cent, TSW which only makes you pay for small content packs, and Defiance which only lets you pay for cosmetic stuff and minor exp boosts. 

Meanwhile you have games like WoW that make you pay 25$ for a server transfer, 10$ FOR A NAME CHANGE, 25$ for mounts,ect. On top of this, the game has a sub. Sure some of this stuff is in B2P games, but you don't have to pay a sub in addition to the option of getting this stuff.

This poster has it right. MMOs are a service. We don't pay them to keep the lights on. We pay them to provide us with stuff to do. If I have to pay 15$ a month I expect a service that provides me with stuff to do every month. If I have a monthly payment for the YMCA and I go there to find it is "closed" during the day I am going to be pissed off. MMOs have downtime for patches and such, which is mostly acceptable in the same way that you cant go to the YMCA when it is closed. If they never cleaned the equipment, upgraded the equipment, or cleaned the building it would be just as unacceptable as not having content on a monthly basis. 

Oh you mean like buying gold for money?

I have HBO, Showtime, MAX and Starz which I pay extra for becuase they are premium service. I don't mind paying for entertainment because its entertaining. I don't go to the YMCA, so not sure about that. If consumers are willing to pay to get their named changed I don't see why that's a huge problem, me I make a new name because its not an issue. I don't play WoW anymore, but I think your right as they are double dipping with the cash shops and I don't like that either.

I don't continue to pay $15 a month to a game that I don't play. Your acting like games make you keep paying a sub even if your unhappy, if your unhappy then quit. The biggest power players have in letting the dev's know they are unhappy is their wallet. If you have a small percentage of players dumping tons of money into cash shop items while the rest of the game suffers the dev's will focus on throwing out more cash shop items.

Take your YMCA comparison, if they add a ice cream shop into that and fat people and children go into it buying ice cream everyday the rest of the place will go to shit as they ramp up ice cream production. Will you continue going there to work out when they let the equipment go and only focus on selling ice cream?