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Originally posted by Icewhite

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Originally posted by Sovrath

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Originally posted by jpnz And I never realized 'waiting for a respawn' was a fun game mechanic.

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Waiting for a spawn isn't about "waiting". It's about opportunity. Opportunity to socialize

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Oh sure, that's what we always said while standing on the mountain of gnoll corpses and trash drops.

But there wasn't any alternative way to gain experience (no quest XP, no PVP xp, no exploration xp, for instance) at the time. Camping-spot grind was all that MUDs had. State of the art, prior to MMOs.

Yup, we were pretty social people. Because the soloers couldn't bear the intensity of the boredom for every long.

We didn't consider ourselves blessed for the 'opportunity' provided by poor game design. Mostly, we swore about the spawn rates.

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And to add on this...

If you wan't people to socialize, then you need to provide more group-content, which is better be done without levelling aswell.

I'm all for interesting storylines and epic arcs, but I'm all against the levelling up.

Not having levels could aswell solve so many issues found in MMOs, like balancing out classes, balancing mobs, etc.

Sure, players like to see some progress, but that could aswell come in form of equipment right away instead of adding some tedious and afterwards useless 50+ levels upfront.

Additionally, the time saved by not creating the level-content could be used to create even better dungeons/raids and storyline quests or epic questchains. Also, the time saved could be used to built a better crafting-system.

I admit, I'm one of those players, who usually don't read any quest-descriptions but simlpy try to level up as fast as possible, as all this "low-level" content isn't usually any interesting. The only quests I'm interested in are the storyline-quests really. TSW was an exception here, as most of the quests were really interesting and required some thinking, whereas most other MMOs totally rely on the kill and collect-stuff.

Try iRacing or rFactor. Hardcore-Simulations ala GTR with lot's of online-events and championships.

Be prepared to pay some bucks tho :)

I'd prefer having no levels and no leveling up aswell.

Something like found in pen&paper RPGs, where you create a character and play it as it is and the only things you improve at are items and knowledge. That's what I'd like to see in MMOs aswell.

Having to level up first is one of those things I hate most about MMOs actually. Instead of this, there should be a tutorial, where you learn how to play the game, but after that it's your decision, if you wanna play the storyline, or if you want to jump right into the dungeons or raids etc.
The storyline should be made interesting enough, so that players really want to play it, instead of being forced to spend two weeks, grinding up to max-level. Especially when re-rolling a new character this leveling up is nothing but tedious.

I actually like the skillsystem of TSW with it's 7/7 limits, but as you've said TSW simply lacks more frequent addition of explorable content, i.e. new zones and new mobs.

Adding a few new quests every month or two in the existing zones isn't going to cut it really and after I had completed 100% of the skillwheel with two characters, and getting my 10.4/10.4 on my main there was nothing more left to do.

Gaining SP/AP was way too fast aswell imho. It could've been halved and it would've still been sufficient.

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Originally posted by Smikis

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Originally posted by Yalexy I'd like it to be subscription aswell, but without box- or expansion-pack prices. Simply let me download the client with a 7 day trial and if I like it then they can have my $15/month. Works with EvE, should work with any other solid MMO aswell.

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eve used to have client price tag, and no doesnt work or any mmorpg that have content updates, shity mmorpgs doesnt count

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When I started playing EvE in 2004 there was no initial price. I simply started with the trial and then paid $15/month.

And as of today you don't have a full box-price aswell. First month (aka client-activation) only costs $20 nstead of $15. And yeah, I'd be willing to pay those $5 for the client if the game is good.

And EvE Online has 2 expansions per year, not charging anything, and they have the most expensive server for a MMO to maintain aswell.

I'd like it to be subscription aswell, but without box- or expansion-pack prices.

Simply let me download the client with a 7 day trial and if I like it then they can have my $15/month.

Works with EvE, should work with any other solid MMO aswell.

What you call insane is exactly the reason why so many people love EvE Online actually. The playerdriven market, where proces go up and down like this is imho one of the biggest sellingpoints of this game.

I actually like Dust514, especially because it's on the PS3 and has native USB-mouse and keyboard support. Being on the PS3 means, that it won't be swamped with aimbots, wall- and speedhacks etc and for this reason it's the best FPS outthere currently.

The integration with EvE and the MMO-elements make it even better.

For me it's pure win.

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Originally posted by asdar

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Originally posted by SpottyGekko
The biggest obstacle in translating EVE's space-based gameplay to a planetary surface is that the resulting game would need a game world that's several orders of magnitude bigger than anything made to date.

 

EVE works because it has a tremendous feeling of scale. Hundreds of player groups are allowed to claim complete control over large areas of EVE. Each of EVE's 6500+ solar systems (not counting wormhole space) is a seperate (but permanent) instance, but each instance feels quite large, even though it essentially consists of a collection of small instances (moons, planets, asteroid belts, etc.) within the large instance of the solar system.

The EVE game world is so large that it's quite possible to move goods and resources from one part of the world to another to take advantage of regional price differences. Many people do that "for a living". The travel times between trade hubs is so long that most people seldom bother to make the trip just to save 5% or 10% on the price of an item.

 

How could that be translated into a "normal" MMO game world ?

 

Imagine that your clan lays claim to a piece of territory in "Medi-EVEal Online". To duplicate EVE's gameplay, your claimed territory would have to:

• only be enterable through a small number of valleys, but it would be virtually impossible to completely block any of the access points, as you are not allowed to build walls or gates across these 20km-wide valleys.
• be large enough that if you're at any one of the various features (mines, towns, guard towers, bunkers, etc.), all the other features in your "kingdom" will be so far away that they're only a spec on the map. The only way to tell if their are hostiles at any of these points would be by using highly specialised optical equipment which (if you were carrying it) would reduce your fighting effectiveness. yet, even though your territory is so big that you can't even see 90% of it, you can reach most of it in a minute or two. you would never have enough resources in your own territory to be self-sufficient, so you HAVE to trade and import stuff. the world outside your territory is so big that it can take hours for a round-trip to a major market hub. The game world is so large and hostile that it is highly unlikely that you will EVER see all of it.

   

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Good post, I don't think there is a way to make the world even come close to feeling like the scale of Eve and still have a feeling of having a full living world. Maybe with 10 years of development, but not anything close to at launch.

Still with a large world and limited fast travel the world can seem very large and I think you could limit resources in areas. The northern Mountains might be the only place to get ore, The oceans in the south the only place to get kelp for another ingredient or something else. I think you could get something close to the same feel of the game on land.

As far as claiming territory that's been done a lot. They have a message sent out if someone takes resources and the local clan rallies to fight off the poachers. It was a key element of one game's pvp. Having to carry a sensor could be done. It wouldn't be an exact parallel, but in PvP games you do defend territory, especially the islands. In land based games with limited travel you can still have a bind point that drops you in the area, then you have to travel to the location. It works well enough to seem the same.

I'm not saying that it has been done, just that it could be done so that the feeling of Eve comes to land. It's kind of the game I'm hoping for.

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The solution is to have some bigger continents and lot's of small islands. This way you can create the feeling of EvE Online very easy. Look at ArcheAge for example and how they basically divide the world into similar zones like EvEs high/low/0.0. Travelling the sea requires time and pirates will try to enter your boat and steal the cargo.

Anyways. The reason for why most gameworlds feel rather small is, that the devs and publishers are cheap *tards not willing to invest in a good server-infrastructure. Look at the EvE-cluster and compare that to any other MMO outthere. EvEs server was in the top500-list of superservers from time to time... just saying.

And how large does the world even have to be? The key here is how fast people can travel really.
Take a marathon-distance for example. 42km and the fastest runners manage this distance in 2 hours. Make those 42km in square and you get about the area of New York City.
Two hours to cross the whole world (coast to coast), if you're running as fast as you can, with no obsticals in your way... that's quiet large allready.
If you do away with fast-travel and 300% mounts and all that, it's totally possible to create a gameworld large enough.

And as I said. Make the world into a world of islands and smaller continents, and you get the feeling of a very big world quiet easy.

Don't be so unimaginary, it can all be done.

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Originally posted by asdar
I've gotta go back to Darkfall UW, even more than Darkfall the original. It's close in concept now. Safe zones, check, Skill progression, check, Free and important politics, check, FFA loot check, and now with classes it's a bit like the different ships so check on that. Instead of spewing hate for Darkfall you should point out some things that would need to change to make it more like Eve on land.

It's not exactly parallel, of course, but it's close. If you don't like Darkfall that's ok, it doesn't hurt my feelings, but it's a good starting point. If you want to see what translating it would be like start with Darkfall and change to tab targetting, then the controls and UI automatically can follow and be just like the other mainstream games but the core would be like Eve.

One of the things that I don't think is easy to translate is the variety of ships. It would have to be classes that translate and I'm not sure that would go over well. If you want to translate that would be the challenge. Figure out how each class of ship could be converted into a class of player. Eve did a very good job of interlinking all the ships so that they each had their place in battle.

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If you want to make Darkfall into something like EvE, then you need to redo 90% of Darkfall.

Anyways, translating EvE into high-fantasy is no problem at all. Go back two pages and read how it's done.

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Originally posted by laokoko

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Originally posted by Yalexy  

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Originally posted by laokoko I didn't know too much about Eve as I barely played it.    But I always felt it is so much easier to expand Eve compare to other high fantasy game because of it being a space shooter and just the layout of the game artistically require less man power to expand the game. I can't find the exact topic but another person talks about it in more detail.  To me expanding the Eve universe is sort of like minecraft concept, easy to do, because all you do is use the basic building block to expand it.  Probably much harder to do in high fantasy, unless you expect all building to look the same.  

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  If you go with continents and islands, expanding the gameworld is just as easy as adding regions to the EvE universe. You people are really unimaginative, and I've allready laid out how EvE could be translated to high fantasy with all it's core-systems. The problem isn't that it's not possible, the problem is that 99.9% of all devs and publishers outthere are just as unimaginative and simply don't have the balls to try something like it.

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You can always try to apply for a job as a game developer.  Or invest on your own money. 

That being said, you misunderstand me.  I mean the manpower need to creat the world probably cost more. 

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I've allready got a job, which I love so I'd rather not change into a new field for the time being.

Anyways, for the manpower...

It's not really that complicated to design maps or static stuff like trees and buildings with the available tools. I'm doing a fair share of 3d-modelling myself and it isn't really that timeconsuming, when you're not aiming for hyperrealistic details.
Look at games like Unreal or the like, where players create lots of awesome maps with the available map-designers for some 20 years, which I did some 20 years back in school myself in DukeNukem rebuilding our school as a map :p
These tools make it really easy to build new stuff rather fast. The bugtesting usually takes longer then the modelling, but that's something the players can help with aswell on the testserver.

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Originally posted by laokoko
I didn't know too much about Eve as I barely played it. 

But I always felt it is so much easier to expand Eve compare to other high fantasy game because of it being a space shooter and just the layout of the game artistically require less man power to expand the game.

I can't find the exact topic but another person talks about it in more detail. 

To me expanding the Eve universe is sort of like minecraft concept, easy to do, because all you do is use the basic building block to expand it.  Probably much harder to do in high fantasy, unless you expect all building to look the same.

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If you go with continents and islands, expanding the gameworld is just as easy as adding regions to the EvE universe.

You people are really unimaginative, and I've allready laid out how EvE could be translated to high fantasy with all it's core-systems.

The problem isn't that it's not possible, the problem is that 99.9% of all devs and publishers outthere are just as unimaginative and simply don't have the balls to try something like it.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

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Originally posted by Yalexy
Gosh...

22 pages and you've still not learned the fact, that there's allready a system the way you want it: PLEX!

Go buy some and fund your battlecruisers with the ISK you've got in return.

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The OP's plan would involve free ships. PLEX requires players to inject money into the game.

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Nothings ever free, not even death.

Gosh...

22 pages and you've still not learned the fact, that there's allready a system the way you want it: PLEX!

Go buy some and fund your battlecruisers with the ISK you've got in return.

Territorial warfare paired with ressource control.

Limiting the skills you can slot in your hotbar requires more tactical foresight, hence makes it harder for the casuals.

And btw... look at TSW. Limiting the skills in your hotbar works like a charm actually and makes it much more interesting, especially if you're after those achievements in the dungeons.

You can actually translate all of the core EvE-systems to a fantasy-setting with tab-targetting-combat. The only thing that will suffer is the size of the battles, as you simply can't build a non-RTS-system currently that supports these many players on the battlefield.

As was said, mining and crafting are fairly easy to translate, aswell as R&D.

Combat needs to be tab-targetting as FPS-controls wouldn't allow for huge battles that have to be calculated server-sided. And yes combat needs to be calculated server-sided, as this is the only way to prevent things like aimbots, wallhacks and all that stuff. In EvE there's no calculations being made on the client-side, and every package send to the server get's inspected before it's processed. Because of this server-side system the combat is rather slow, and modules have rather long cycles.
It's doable in a fantasy-setting however, but the combat automatically turns into a slowed down and more tactical system.

Territorial warfare would need to be changed aswell, and it would involve lots more active patrolling of your territory, but I'd like that in EvE aswell, instead of the iHubs.
Instead of POS you would build stationary harvesters and instead of stations there would be castles ofc.
You can aswell place towers in various spots with automated NPCs/cannons, to guard your territory, but these are destroyable ofc.

The skill-system of EvE could aswell be translated into a fantasy-setting and TSW is a good example of how it could be done, and allthough TSWs skill-system is rather small and less complex compared to that of EvE it basically has the same idea behind it.
You have a template, where you can slot 7 active and 7 passive skills. Your slotted skills determine which weapons you can use, and what armor you can wear etc etc... No problem there to make the trinity work.

Upon death your items get destroyed and some of them drop as loot, aswell as your cargo. Money however is safe, as there's no physical money. This keeps the economy running.

Zones -> islands/continents (see ArcheAge)

The "safer" continents (high-sec) would be guarded by godlike NPCs, just like CONCORD in EvE. So if you kill someone not in your guild and not in an active war with, these NPC-guards will kill you for sure afterwards, with no option of escaping them.

The sea inbetween the continents would be lowsec, where there's lot's of small islands guarded by some automated towers on the shorelines, just like the sentry-guns in EvE. Some of these islands may even have some guarded NPC-cities where you can trade, even if you're a flagged criminal.

If you commit a crime within range of NPC-guards/towers you get flagged as a criminal each time, and once you've been flagged too much you can't set a foot onto the high-sec continents without being killed by "CONCORD".
To get your reputation up again, you have to do quests found on the small islands. But this should require some efforts, to make your actions count.

0.0 would be unguarded continents, where the players can build castles, towers, harvesters and all that. And what happens on these continents, stays on these continents.

So yes. It would be totally doable, and it would be totally awesome. And those who mention Darkfall or Mortal Online... get out of here, as these both are examples of how it's done wrong.

ArcheAge is actually pretty close to a fantasy-setting EvE Online.

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Originally posted by Wakygreek

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Originally posted by Yalexy  

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Originally posted by Wakygreek Just as a side question, does anyone know if Dust will ever go to the PC? Im all thumbs when it comes to console shooters.

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  DUST514 has native USB keyboard and mouse support, so no. There's no need for a PC-version as it plays allready like on a PC.

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I realize that you can set it up with keyboard and mouse on your console, i just dont want to spend the extra cash to do so. Not to mention that not all blue tooth headsets are compatible with the console or the game. Bringing it to the PC would make more sense for ease of use. Anyway Not trying to steal the topic was just curious if they would ever bring it to the PC.

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Nope. Will never be released for PC. Ever.

Reasons range from hacking being rampant on PC to unified hardware on consoles making a shooter a level playingground. All stated by CCP several times.

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Originally posted by Wakygreek
Just as a side question, does anyone know if Dust will ever go to the PC? Im all thumbs when it comes to console shooters.

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DUST514 has native USB keyboard and mouse support, so no. There's no need for a PC-version as it plays allready like on a PC.