|21 posts found|
Originally posted by Maephisto
Hard to tell really, I got on with some friends over the weekend and it was so busy out there that I didn't even see what killed me till after I was dead and a LOT of players just appeared suddenly. That takes a lot of players in one location for that to happen to me on my computer. That was rough! It's not like they give us a number count per side there how many are out. Sometimes wish they did lol!
I like how this non-trinity stuff gets brought up. GW2 is poorly designed in Dungeons. It needed a tank and healer combo to really survive. Right now most that go in, try to zerg it with massive dps and that's it. Now there are those few, I do mean few, that try and use the tools given to them. In other words they are trying to make use of the healing and support capabilities of some of the classes and do well. Which means it's not go in, zerg, die, re-enter, zerg, die, rinse repeate..... Which I have been a part of many of those groups and I just quit. I don't even bother with it. Waste of time.
In my opinion, any kind of MMORPG that tries to come out with a system that does not require a Tank type and Healer type for support in a Dungeon and or Raid, has severely dumb downed the challenge aspect or made it just like GW2, where all you are getting out of it is a repair bill and lots of frustration. Thankfully there are healing capabilities in even Skyrim, saved my hiney quite a few times as well as my Follower. But.... I would think that is something that would carry over in ESO so not worried about that.
Dynamic Events? GW2's idea there failed. All it is, is a repeated or triggered event that is the exact same every time. It doesn't change and due to the lack of any real rewards, a lot of players don't even participate in them. There are very few players at any given event on my server at any given time. They just don't want to bother with them because they really are just that boring. The only ones that get attention are the ones that take over a location that you need to work in. Those they kinda have to do to gain access to the NPC's there. But since there really isn't any quests in the game except your class line? Again, not many participate. They just want to get all the objectives of the zone done and move to the next.
ESO has a lot to offere that GW2 will never have. Tons of Story and Lore, quests and places to discover all over the land. Elder Scrolls has too rich of a story ( GW1 Had a lot of story, was a shame that GW2 lacked that ) for it not have a great building foundation here. My only dread is I hate PvE zerging. So eh, we'll see how it goes.
Originally posted by trash656
I don't really see a lot of WoW in it, other than it's Fantasy based. As far as the hotbar goes, eh, it doesn't need to be that big. One of the things I hated in WoW was the classes in my opinion had WAY too many skills to deal with. Shamans, Hunters, all had too many utility skills. I like the more simplified set they're doing here. Remember, there isn't a need for a lot of buttons when most of your attacks depend on how long you hold your mouse button or how you move while striking.
Besides, WoW's formula was also taken from EQ. Now WoW is nothing more than a childrens game. They couldn't pay me to come back. Right now I'm happy still playing Skyrim because of all the additional content you can get from the Modding community. Some of those guys should be working for Bethesda, because they're damn good. I love the look and feel of ESO, but that's not where my worries come from. I've already stated them once in this thread. So wont rehash them here again.
Just for once though, I'd like a MMO to really be a RPG like they used to be. Quit making things that are only good for a month or so. It's making me not want to buy them anymore and just play games like Oblivion, Skyrim, Tomb Raider ( Exploration in this game series is always great ) and similar other games. The things I love about Elder Scrolls is how much detail there is in the game. I don't know how they're going to keep that intact when they have hundreds of thousands of players on one server..... 24 hours, 7 days a week ZERG Fest coming up!
Originally posted by trash656
Eh, I probably could if I wanted to, but it would be outdated before it ever reached the shelves or made available for digital purchase. These games are worse than any computer or electronic device about how fast they change. Most of them definitely do not change for the good either. :\
This game is far from being a clone of GW2 for a lot of reasons. Skills for one, Quests and Lore is another, Graphics are far far above anything in GW2, mechanics is another. Just because a game has similar aspects, does NOT make a clone. Read what the word "Clone" means in the dictionary, it's an exact copy of something already in existance. What I have breifly pointed out here already far exceeds GW2 which wouldn't have taken much at all. GW2 is only good for a short play period, same with GW1. It's something to do when you're bored with everything else in my opinion.
Where I feel ESO is going to come up short is the way the server is set up. One Mega Server means everyone will just zerg through the content. There is going to be way too many on one server for it to be any fun. To me being on the highest populated servers in games has always been frustrating. The one thing I miss in MMORPG's is the true Guild aspect. No game since DAoC has done Guilds right. There is no need to be in them, no need to form groups, no need to be a part of anything really. I blame this one on WoW, definitely after they put in the Group Finding tools for both dungeons and raids. They just pulled the nail on any reason once so ever to be part of a guild.
GW2 is even worse because the perks you get as a guild? You pay for them, then have to wait to use them so you have to plan things in advance. But if people don't show up like it's their job, you can't always bank on that going well for you. So that was a bad design right there, they should have made the effect happen then, then make you wait x-amount of time to use it again. Every game so far I've been in has been very much less and less about Guilds. DAoC had a damn good system and made it even better over time. They recognized the power of Guilds and that was great. Now days, it's just about get me and out as fast as possible, to the end of the game as fast as possible, raid, raid, raid, then rage quit because there is nothing left to do till the next content patch or expansion.
PvP is another sore topic, because it's plaqued with the biggest whiners across the globe. None of them are ever happy even after they get what they want. They just find something else to complain about it seems. Don't get me wrong, I once was HUGE on PvP, especially coming from DAoC. I had eight level 50's and three were RR5+ and two were RR7+ one of them two were almost RR8 when I quit. I personally would have made it to max rank had I stayed, but all my friends left for WoW. I didn't feel up to dealing with the dwindling numbers. So I went with them. But PvP has never been that good since and I don't see it ever becoming as good again. Today's gamers don't want it. They want Quake or Call of Duty style pvp is seems.
What makes an MMO a RPG is that the RPG doesn't just mean Role Playing Game here. The RPG aspect of it also brings with it a lot of standards that are followed. These standards include Stat Points that you put where you want each level, Racial Choices, Armor and Weapon choices, Character Creation Choices that are very detailed. This list is HUGE and that was but a short and I mean very short list. RPG also meant that the game was HUGE on story and content. So to understand as to why it's so hard to make PvP work properly in this setting is to make someone very unhappy at times because they can't take getting hit by an archer while wearing cloth. They can't stand also getting destroyed by a fireball while wearing plate.
RPG aspects dictated weaknesses and strengths in everything. People don't like that, they want balance. There is no such a thing as -balance- where RPG comes in. What does come in, is you adapt and move on, or die. Recently I did this in Skyrim, as I chose to finally make a pure caster. No light armor, no heavy armor, pure zero rated cloth. What I used to find minute and pointless to worry about suddenly became my worst enemy. Heck, even those stupid bear traps hurt early on. I had to learn how to play all over again because I refused to take the game off of Adept till later when I pushed it to Expert. Now I'm still playing that character, not even close to being done, but at some point I'll put the game on Master I'm sure of it.
Point is, I'm the type that adapts and moves on. Not one to let my weaknesses get the best of me and start complaining that I want my cloth armor to protect me better. No no... Instead I decided to reinvent myself from my archer ways to approach the game differently. That is something I'd like to see more players do, less whining, more adapting and moving on. But PvP will always have zergs of one kind or another unless it's instanced off arenas. Which I wouldn't mind them setting up the old Oblivion style arena in ESO where we could go in with Arena gear given to us before the fight and being able to place bets and so on.... That would RULE!
Anyway, I've rambled on long enough... Have fun everyone! :)
Where to begin.....
GW2 pretty much sucks after you reach a certain point. All it is is the same thing, zone after zone after zone. That's definitely not going to be for ESO. I've 3 max leveled characters in GW2, played GW1 till I had 9 level 20's with 4 of them all geared with all the fancy faction armors and so on.... Just like GW1, GW2 got boring fast. Fun to play but gets boring. They didn't do ANYTHING that I would call over the top in innovation for MMO's. Warhammer Online had Dynamic events before either Rift or GW2 and the problem with them is the same across the bored. People just aren't all that interested in most of them. There was nothing truely rewarding about them and their dungeon system is no different. They just reinvented the GRIND was all they did.
ESO isn't without flaws already, I have my gripes with it as well and it's not even out. Like I don't care for the way they're doing the Class thing based on Race. I'd rather them give you the choice of a Race to play, level to a certain point in a Racial Starting Zone. Then say at 15 or 20 you have to decide which side of the fence you're playing on. From that point on you're permanently on that side with that character, no going back once you make your decision. This would have let the players get to play the Race they want without having to worry or not about which side their friends had chosen. Which is how the Elder Scrolls games have always been. You chose your race, then later you picked your side to follow. This is the biggest gripe I have which to some will be looked at as minor.
The other thing I'd like to point out about all the hotbar gripes, of ESO having one to begin with. All a hotbar is, is a set of skills that are -HOTKEYED- onto those keys. Which you did in Skyrim and previous games. Just you could not visually see them on your screen which ment you had to memorize them well. So the gripes about this game having one is stupid. More than likely you can turn the UI off like in other games and not worry about it? Who knows, but it's no different than hotkeyed skills just you can visually see them. Big deal!
Quite frankly I have worries over this stupid Mega Server System, I see nothing but bad coming from this. Yeah looks good, sounds good, on paper and on their limited amount of people at this time having access to it. But we all know when you put everyone on basically one big server, cluster or whatever and have it all tied together with thousands of other players. It normally causes a lot more problems once something like this goes live than it ever even was thought of while they are testing it and using it as it is currently. So I do worry about that.
The other thing I don't like is the Zerg-Fest mantality this game ( As did GW2 and Rift ) promotes. Just means all this game is looking to be is another one of those play it for a month and beat the end game scenarios. That is NOT what an MMORPG should ever have become but today's lazy players want everything handed to them so that is what these game companies now cater to. Quick buck, turn around rinse and repeate. When you pretty much make it so people can share kills without grouping and get full experience and rewards, all they do is zerg the entire game to the end and wala! Completed in no time without any major challenge once so ever. Now I can't say that ESO is going to be like this, all I am saying is from what I've read and heard from others posting that is what we're heading for.
This is why I'd rather had Elder Scrolls just have a bloody Multiplayer ability to games like Skyrim where the game would have a host server or you could host it yourself and have 2 to 3 others join your game and just have the game become a tad harder for every extra person over you joining. That would have been PERFECT for Skyrim, I hope they do it for ESVI because MMO's in my opinion are becoming so short lived they're not worth the money anymore. They might as well hand you a fully leveled and decently geared character at the start and be done with it. Because lately that's all the MMO's are worth.
I've been in MMO's since 2001, started with DAoC, did WoW, LotRO, AoC, SWG, SWTOR, Vanguard ( Which was great for a while ), RIFT, Lineage II, Warhammer Online along with countless others I've been in Beta with and tried out for a free month and just could not stand them. Now I understand something that others do not wish to. No game company is ever going to please everyone, so I wish they'd stop trying to. in the early days of gaming, this goes for all games, not just MMORPG's... When you got a preview copy, trial, whatever you wish to call it, you could play a little of it and decide if you were going to be interested enogh to buy it or not. Once you bought the game, you could get a lot further, but at least you got a good enough start in it to find out if you liked it or not.
Point I'm trying to make, no game should be tailored to a majority of anything. It should be designed from the ground up to be DIFFERENT and CHALLENGING in it's own UNIQUE way. If the player doesn't like it? They don't buy it, they get one they do like and play that one. Game companies need to get off of this Quantity over Quality and go back to the old ways of doing these games. Then they'll last longer than a month, have far less bugs, become far more in-depth, have far more options for players that are of the most demanding in skill and want the best. Not just settle for whatever a COMPANY says is or claims is the best just because they make it.
Lastly, I do hope that ESO is a lot better than what I'm feeling it is as of this time. I absolutely LOVE Elder Scrolls, I've almost 900 hours played in Skyrim alone and still playing it. I have the same with Oblivion, fixing to start playing Morrowind, but I've been an RPG fan for decades. I've done D&D Table Top, loved the Forgotten Realms games, I love a lot of lore, detail, exploration, crafting, questing, I love it all and a lot. So here is to hoping for the best for ESO, I'm just not going to hold my breath on it.....
The things I worry over is that I'd hate to see this turn into a GW2 type of game. GW2 does not impress me all that much, which I knew it wouldn't anyway. GW originally was not all that great of a PvE game to begin with because that was not their primary focus. Don't get me wrong, I still had fun in it, but it was their PvP that made that game popular. Same with GW2. The thing they introduced into the MMO world of not having to worry about loot based off of kills on a particular NPC out in the open is a double edged sword.
It allows everyone to zerg the entire content if that is what they wish, except for their dungeons. Those are instanced. However, when I'm leveling, I don't like having people zerg the single NPC I'm fighting just because they'll get loot from it. Worst part is, they may get it and I wont. When I am out soloing, I would rather it be just that, me against a NPC or two, three at once. However many I feel up to handling alone. Then seeing if I really have the skills to pull that off and survive it. With GW2? I could pull the entire zone practically and not worry because so many around me are going to jump in. That defeats any and all challenges in the game for me, makes it pretty much easy-mode. So I've found I don't like it.
Flipside is, even when it's not like GW2, people tend to do that, even when they don't get credit for it. So I can see why GW2 went this direction, but that game lacks challenge at all. SWTOR same way, lacks any real challenge. RIFT, even worse, no challenge. WoW since Lich King, not a challenge. The way I measure this, if I can get a character, to max level, in less than 10 days played time with full crafting as well and then raid ready to top it off? That was not a challenge. 1 to 70 in WoW on a Shaman, 8.5 days played with full leather working. Just over a month in SWTOR? I had several level 50's, 2 of which were in T1 and 2 raid gear and the rest raid ready. 8 slots done like that in less than two months. No challenge. I was bored quite quickly without even trying.
That is why I'm getting so let down by MMO's lately. Sad to say this one I feel is my last one. I seriously get tired of wasting my hard earned money on a game and finding it has a shorter life span than some single stand alone games. I'm still holding on to faith with this one however, no matter what. The downside for me is I want to play a wood elf and looks like due to my guild I'll not be able to. Because of how they set up factions. Personally I would have let people pick their race, level in their homeland zones, then after a certain point, they'd have to pick their side. Because we all know even the stand alone games from the ES series, there was no race that stuck to their own. There were those that didn't not agree with their own people and joined the other side all the time. I felt that shouldn't have been any different for us. But I also would see it as this, if you did make that choice, it's permanent, no going back.
Anyway, I do enjoy this conversation. Normally when you talk about such aspects of a game online you're typically met with some rather child like behavior and this has been anything but close to that. Glad to see there are some level headed people still out in the gaming world. Because I can tell you from the years of being online, not just in games, it is rare...
Originally posted by DeniZg
Personally here is a small list of what I feel would help....
I could go on and on here, as myself I have a lot of ideas of what I'd want to see in an MMO. I feel after playing them for over 11 years now, I could come up with a complete story line, map and full drawn out plans for one. If I had the people to work with to help build on? I definitely would. But I'm no programmer, I'm a graphic artist and musician. I get together nightly almost with friends and this is all we talk about some nights is how we would do things if we could. At certain times I have said, we should! But these things take years to develop and to do one right would definitely be that, years!
Originally posted by Elikal
The answer is easy but the player base wont like it. Players of today do not want to have to work for a single thing really. They get in, rush to max level in a week or less, run a few dungeons then go to the Raids. By the end of the month they've completed all the end game content ( Not neccessarily completed the game 100% just the part they wanted ). This has been a growing disease on games as well as one of the biggest issues as to why MMO's do not last long anymore and there is a new one out every other month or so, if not sooner.
How this would be fixed would be first off all from the design end of things, they'd need to slow down leveling, completely. They'd also need to offer a LOT more content upon release as well add in a couple of Major Content Updates along the way in the first year ( New Raid, New Dungeons, New Land, anything.... ). Also stop making everything a Zerg-fest through PvE Content, so that it's a challenge again. Give more incentives for grouping and being in Guilds ( Especially the Guild Fact which is a joke now days in all games, as in they don't make it worth joining and working within a guild, instead they promote being in multiple Guilds and never really helping any of them ).
The problem is, MMO as an industry now, is mainstream. It used to be for those gamers that were super serious and wanted a lot more out of a game than just what a Stand Alone would give. Stand Alone games at that time only lasted a couple of months then you had to wait almost a year before an expansion was released, then you had to wait for the next major release. While MMO's at this time it would take you a very long time to get to max level, you had constantly growing, ever-changing environments with added content to keep you busy for an extremely long time.
Today everyone is in a hurry, everyone wants to hit max level and get into raiding. I blame WoW for this mantality. Not at first, but definitely later. Now everyone feels pressured to do this or they wont get players. Personally I feel a game company should not care to become the next big icon in the gaming industry, as this leads to poor quality in design, mechanics and over all gaming experience. Because all they're doing is releasing this stuff too soon to the public, rushing it out, to make money as fast as they can. Then when it fails, they take it to Free To Play ( Freemium ) to nickle and dime you to death by touting the word "FREE" in it.
The MMO industry is no longer about quality, it's about quantity and has lost touch with what it really should be. It started catering to people that it should have stood up against and said "If you don't like our game, there are others to choose from". This is the biggest single issue MMO's have to deal with and it's going to take one heck of a company to really pull it back together and be accepting of the fact they will never have the numbers of the so called "Mainstream" games, but they will have the most loyal players for it though. By that I mean they're so happy with the fact they have quality in the game that they're not sitting at their keyboards night after night talking about how they hope the next game coming out is far better than the one they're currently in....
Originally posted by BadSpock
My favorite part of this is "the whole thing isn't too grindy."
All games are a grind, don't care what you say or do, all of them no matter what you're doing is a form of one grind or another. You're either grinding for points, coin, gear or ranks, what ever it is, it's still a grind. That will never change, no matter what a company does for design on game content, everything in them can be considered a grind.
Personally I also don't buy into this Theme Park / Sandbox description of games either. Where ever that started at, needs to go away! LOL It's like every year there is some new term for what a game is or isn't. It doesn't bloody matter! What matters is, you bought it, played it, was it fun? If not, you move on! Just like Music or Movies, you buy the CD or go pay for your Ticket to watch the movie. Until the film starts rolling, you have no real idea ( Aside from select few we can name ) if you're really going to like this movie or not. Same holds true with games. I believe in games being fun, not work. I also believe in MMO's being in a class of their own, not that of a Single Stand Alone game where it comes to life-span ( Granted I'm still replaying Skyrim a lot even as of now ).
One of my posts on here I've stated the state of MMO's are stagnate because they lack any real challenge, content or longevity. Which is true if you think about it. How many recent MMO's have come out and were fully completed within less than two months time from release? I can name several, but I shouldn't need to because I'm certain you all know exactly which ones they are. To me, that is not an MMO, that is a waste of money. That's me or you, spending $60 to $150 or more, for the initial purchase only to find there isn't even a months worth of content or challenging enough to make it last longer.
This is what has me worried about The Elder Scrolls Online, if they follow this suit? I'll be very disappointed and pretty much I'm going to personally give up on MMO's and just stick with games like Skyrim and hope they at one point just put a multiplayer aspect into that. Because after playing MMO's since 2001 and I have been a part of some big ones, as well as a ton of others through Beta Testing and I feel this one for me will be my last. I'm only going to give this one a shot because of how much I love ES series.
My concerns are all over the place on this one. But I'm trying to have faith in the making of it. Videos are cool and all, but we all know the truth is in the Release, not Alpha or even Stand Beta. Nothing is solidified till six months after release, even then changes will be made.
Originally posted by deakon
Doesn't matter, there is more to it than just the loot issues. There is the total confusion and the fact that I personally do not like that aspect of steam rolling everything as well. The point behind a game like this should be to have fun and be a challenge. That's not a challenge and certainly is not fun after the first time doing it. All that equates to, is ZERG the entire game and you're done and there is nothing left. Again, bad design idea. All this promotes is constant zerging of content. People will be done with this game in less than a month's time if they allow that type of play all over.
Originally posted by deakon
Even if they do it like GW2, which I commend ArenaNet for that, it's the first time anyone has done this before ( Granted, that game is boring as can be now, not much to it honestly ), I would rather still have it instanced. Reasons for this is I don't like lag one bit, it can be one of the biggest reasons for quitting a game because you can't enjoy it. Lagging and having your skills not go off due to having to compete with 100+ players in the very same space as you? Yeah, that is the kind of mass confusion I can do without. It's bad enough when you have 2 to 4 groups of players in a raid, let alone as many as can be in on this one because of it being all ONE BIG Server!
That's the biggest negative I can come up with. Too many players in one spot makes for a miserable experience. Always has and always will, where it's PvE. PvP has always been this way and that's fine, I remember doing Relic Raids in DAoC that locked up my computer due to how many came out. My system back then was top of the line and could NOT handle that. That had more to do with their game and graphics engine than anything else, maybe a bit of the server handling too. Which again, brings up my concerns over this Mega Server stuff. It might be nice to be able to be on the same server as your friends, but I am wondering how much a server setup like this can really handle. Beta Testing doesn't count. The only real way to test this before release would be to allow as many people that can, get on it and THEN they can see how much it can do as well see how many bugs will be involved with character handling and such...
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Aparentl you haven't played Lineage series of games, especially L2. They had that, all it was, was players sitting at bosses all the time camping them. Either for one of two reasons, griefing others that tried to come in for the boss ( Remember that game was all PvP ) and or they were trying to farm it for items. This is especially true for farming companies. So no, I'm not at all interested in giving them any means to take advantage of a game like this and ruining it to the point all you do is log out because you're so upset it's going on.
The only open dungeon systems I've ever really enjoyed was that of DAoC, but farming companies didn't plague that game for some reason. At least I never noticed them and I was in those PvE dungeons a lot. Back then the player community was much stronger too. As in we did huge dragon raids, Darkness Fall raids and had a blast. But I'll admit, that also was as laggy as can be doing Legion at the end of DF. The loot was hard to get anything from because of how many showed up.
I feel as far as PvE Dungeons go, they should be isntanced and maybe have one that isn't or even two, but if they were to all go Open, then it would be total mayem even standing to go into them no matter what. Remember, they're trying to do this Mega-Server stuff that I feel is a major negative in this. Something about it doesn't seem like it is going to work as well as they're thinking. We'll just have to wait and see on this one. But yeah, Open Dungeons are huge negatives and the only people that want them are either Farmers or Griefers. All it does is open up a bunch of in-game fights about who's going to get what boss first with everyone on the server. I can't see that being good.
if TESO ends up a WoW clone, would you still play it?
General Discussion « Elder Scrolls Online
11/13/12 10:54:02 AM
Don't forget in 2001 DAoC came out and this is where I will bet you money is why you're getting 3 factions ( Not 2 like every game since WoW has come out ). Which is a much better way to do it than having a 2 sided fist fight where it gets old fast. I played DAoC ( For those who don't know Dark Age of Camelot ) for well over 5 years, I'd roughly say closer to 6. Tried to go back but couldn't handle the clunky UI they have kept in place all these years.
Seems like everyone thinks just because it's an MMO, that it was a copy of WoW... As the above comment states, UO and EQ ( Not EQ 2 either ) were the originating MMORPG's and I'd add DAoC shortly after that. WoW came way later into the scene and was great till Lich King and then just decended in a downward spiral from that point on ( My opinion there of course as I played it for 7 years ).
To give you all a good laugh, when I was playing Lord of the Rings Online, I was out crafting in one of the main crafting hub towns. This guy had to be the best laugh I had in a lifetime. He posted up in public chat, something to the tune of "How is it that Lord of the Rings is stealing from WoW? Do they honestly think changing the color of Orcs makes it unique?" Man, I cannot tell you how fast that poor guy was shot down from so many, including myself. Which brings me to my point, just because a game has a hotbar, elves, orcs, bows, questing systems of varrying styles, does not make a game a clone of any other game. These things are standard in so many games before WoW and several others that it's rather silly to say it's a WoW clone. All you do is bring out the forum trolls and personally anyone making a thread of this nature is wanting that really.
The Elder Scrolls Online may have a 6 button skill bar, but that isn't how many skills you have when you think how they transcend into other skills based on how you use them or reactionary benifits that lead into others. The thing is, they could easily do it just like Skyrim and you'd never know how many skills you're actually using, but you do have more than just a few skills even in that game. Some are based on sneak, some based on the type of attack, weapon, so on.... So you can't really claim this as a GW2 clone either because other games have had similar systems before them as well. To me Vanguard had the absolute best combat system, too bad Sony owns it.
Anyway, I like to judge games on their own merit, trying to compare a game to another game is like comparing a Volkswagon Bug to a Ferrari. Two totally different beasts all together, yet they're both cars, both have four wheels, both have engines, but they are very very different still the same!
Originally posted by Rimmersman
No it sounds like to me that the industry is stagnate and needs to move back in time a bit to make themselves viable again. No one likes a MMO that you complete in less than a month's time and trust me that's been done more times than I can count. You pay $60 to $200 or more for the game, you expect to get more than a month or two for your investment. Which has not happened in the last 5 or more years with any game.
As for my playing Vanguard I have a level 39 Rogue in that game, they have taken so much of what I loved about that game out of it that I feel I personally wouldn't enjoy it. The other factor is I don't like open public dungeons to do raids in. Again, something about having to compete to get to a boss, been there and done that and don't like it. But I commend you for thinking about Vanguard because it had ( Not sure how much has changed since I left ) the very best combat mechanics of any game ever made. Their crafting was far more superior to other games but it was not easy either. I forget what my Tailoring is at on that game, but it was pretty high when I left. So yes, that game is a good example of what a REAL MMORPG is.
The only reason it's numbers are up is they went Free To Play wich is more expensive than doing a Subscription based term with them. But people don't realize that at first, they see that one word "FREE" and think YAY! If they want much out of it they'll end up spending more than what they would if they just did the monthly fee. So eh, not going to be the one to bite on that bait.
But I do agree with your response as far as what it would take to get everything up to level. That game deserves so much better than Sony has given it. It was a gem of a game when it came out, had they fixed the bugs and put more effort behind it, they'd had one hell of a game to contend with anything being released at that time. And yes, my diplomacy was up pretty high as well. I focused on a lot of that game's many directions you could go. I found it more than fun. The only reason I left to begin with was the people that were playing at that time, if you didn't know anyone you were pretty much on your own and the guild I did join was doing nothing and going nowhere.
All of this aside however, the one thing Vanguard was not all that rich in was Adventuring and Story. It had a story, but unlike what you get with Elder Scrolls, it pails in comparison there. One of the things I said in my original post was I'd be more than happy had they just gave us the ability to log into a server with Skyrim and have up to 4 of us in a single game to just go at it at our own pace. That would have pleased me more than anything, I'd never want another MMO if I had that. Seeings how they are making an MMORPG out of it, my hopes is they keep what makes Elder Scrolls unique and not cater to the whims of the industry and todays masses. Because that is how the gaming industry has turned into makeing MMO's nothing more than a one month stand ( Basically a Stand Alone time span ), which is NOT what a good MMORPG is!
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Yes, those are a lot of my concerns as well. As far as PvP goes in most games, it's usually the downfall for PvE and that I hope changes here. I'm not holding my breath. Problem you have is PvP players all want the game a certain way, which causes the PvE game to suffer in the end. Your hard core PvP players will throw fits on forums to get their way, so much that the company regrets usually ever putting up the Forums or putting PvP in the game. Because they usually end up caving in for these types and it gets old going from game to game with the same mistakes being repeated left and right. So yes, this is a major concern for me.
As far as crafting goes, I think that should be how you get your armor. Doing the Raids and such to get the special mats needed to make the super high end armor would be the way to go. This way, Crafters are some of the most important people in the game. Crafting needs to be made important like it was in DAoC, because you had to have 99% and 100% quality gear made then have it Spell Crafted, Alchemy for Tinctures, on top of all the different crafts for Armor and Weapons. Not to mention all the crafters were important for things other than just gear, they did repairs on Walls and Doors at keeps, made the parts for all the Siege Weapons as well. We haven't had crafters that important in a game in a very long time and quite frankly they should have always been that important. Not just one or two out of the eight or so different professiosn you could choose from being worth the time and effort to level.
I haven't heard much about the crafting in TESO, but I'm hoping for it to be that important, but I'm sure if I build my hopes up that hight they'll get crushed so I'm going to hold off on any opinions on this till I see more about what they're doing to the crafting lines. I particularly LOVE it in Skyrim, not overly complicated and very important to perfecting your character. Lets hope for similar here.
Originally posted by Qallidexz
Yes it was a long post, but that's just how it goes. As for building Hype? Why not? We're all entitled to our opinions yes? It's just I've heard so many go negative on a game that isn't even out yet, doesn't even have a release date. That's kind of silly when you think about it. Anyway, yeah my post I admit was long but I had a lot to say and no need in breaking it down to several post when it would still equate out to the same thing, a riduclously long post just in several chapters.
Everyone is going to talk about a game that is being announced this early, there is no stopping that. You'll either choose to agree with someone or not, it's all good either way. But I feel gamers today need to stop wanting a new version of a previous game and as well stop calling all MMO's a clone of another ( No names being mentioned ), just look at it as a new chance for something you 'Might' like or 'Not' and move on. People have caused the MMO industry to go stagnate as of late, by making overbearing demands on the game companies to put this in, put that in, or I'm leaving or wont buy it, etc.... Well, we don't all drive the same car, we don't all live in the same house, we all don't wear the same shoes, etc... So why should every MMO that comes out be the same as another in it's options, content or otherwise? It shouldn't.
Now, flipside here, there are a lot of positive comments and posts as well which I'm happy to see there are. I've been wanting this to happen for the better part of six years ( The Elder Scrolls Online ). That's how far back it was when I started getting in to Elder Scrolls itself. Their games are addictive to say the least and I really hope this one lives up to that reputation. As I've learned with some regret now and then, that doesn't always happen so I'm going to try to keep myself open minded and like all of the others here, hope it is a very good game in general. We can fantasize about it all we want, but reallity can be harsh when you over build your expectations....
The Order of Sanity
Where to begin....
For starters, I've been around the MMO block more than once, since 2001 I've played every Major and Minor MMO you can probably bring up that was worth anything at all and a few that should never have been as well. I'm not goin to brag about my accomplishments, because in all actuallity they're all just games, who cares how much you've done in them. The point is, did you have fun while in the game? If so? Then the game did it's job. Some games start out great, only to go really bad, really fast, right after release. There are a few major reasons for this, one of which is usually poor implimintation and design. Mostly it's design though.
MMO ( Especially RPG based MMO's ) and yes there are those out there that I personally feel shouldn't be touting the RPG part of their genre. Anyway, a MMO is a game that has long since been lost, let alone MMORPG's. The idea behind paying a monthly fee to play a game you spent $60 to $150 ( CE's ) to buy to me back in the early days was not something I cared for. But! When I seen that the game was never ending, took you a good six months of hard work just to get to what I call the midway point ( Max Level, as we all know that's generally where the real game begins ). Then you still haven't even come close to doing even 50% of what the game had to offer. You were lucky if you got it all done by the time they did their next paid expansion.
That to me is what a MMORPG should be, you should not complete the game at all even close in the firs few weeks or months. It should be something on such a grand scale that when you get in, you are overwhelmed and kept occupied for the first year at least. Crafting was also something that made things last longer, as in my first MMORPG ( DAoC ) it defined your world. Crafting was a HUGE part of it and that even itself has been lost in todays MMORPG's. Then we come to the last point of my targeted discussion here is everyone wants the next MMO they go to, to be just like the one they just left but with a different skin. They deny this when you say this to them but in actuallity it is what they're demanding. Gaming companies now days go for the quick buck, release things well before the game is ready and end up struggling and caving in to demands of what in fact is the reason games fail lately. Now this brings me to The Elder Scrolls Online....
Let me say this is the one thing I've been really waiting for, that is simply an Online version of Elder Scrolls. I could have been more than happy of just having them add the ability to have 3 others log into a Elder Scrolls game ( Like Skyrim ) and just have the game scale to how many of us were there and let a few of us get together and have a blast going around and exploring. Then again I can't deny I wanted to know what it would be like for a real MMORPG by Bethesda. Now before you go pointing out it's not Bethesda making it? They are overseeing it, they are a part of it still and it is their partner company doing this. So! I'm still excited and having a lot of faith that they will bring back what MMORPG's are supposed to be.
The main issue I see with gaming today, everyone wants to just get in for a short time and get everything they want and get out. Problem is, that is not what a MMO should be, as I've explained. I've read and heard about from my closest friends that frequent here a lot about what some ohave said. All of the "This is why The Elder Scrolls Online will fail" and all that. Well for starters a failed game does not run, does not stay open and is not played by anyone, PERIOD! There are a lot of games still being played to this day ( EQ, EQ2, DAoC, etc.... ) that were out and are responsible for other MMO's coming to life that are in fact still running today. Just because a game has some similarities to another, doesn't make them a Clone to the previous one.
What makes them a clone is when they start down that path of bringing in things to their game that others have based on selfish demands of players that just don't want to put in time and effort to a game. They want the quick fix and get to the end yesterday as apposed to taking their time, play and enjoy the game and explore all of the options. MMORPG's are not single player games, they are not a stand alone, they should take you all year to get even close to completing everything there is in the game from release minus a content addition here and there. This is what The Elder Scrolls is up against and to me that has nothing to do with it being a Clone, it has more to do with todays players wanting it to become just that so they can rush through it.
Now, don't get me wrong, not trying to start no kind of flame wars here, but The Elder Scrolls Online from what I've been seeing is far from being anything like any other game out other than Elder Scrolls itself. It can't possibly be identical 100% to the stand alone version, because there is a lot in those that would not work in the online format of an MMORPG, especially one with PvP in it. I for one love the direction they're going with it so far, except for a few things. I've long gotten over the need to have one dungeon have three of four different playable versions ( Heroic, Nightmare, etc.... ). That I can do without, I'd just like to have a lot more different dungeons than go into the same one again all the time. That's just me though.
This game's combat system is NOT like GW2, it's like their stand alone game more than GW2. GW2's is a weak version of what TESO has. The way the perk system works, the way the attacks can change and so on are far different than that of GW2. So that's not a real fair comparison. The game isn't even out of infancy yet and people are judging purely on speculation and not on facts. Nothing in the game is even written in stone till it's released and even then it's not, we all know this from being in MMO's how they change things all the time. Technically, no game is really ever out of beta, it's just released and everyone that buys it is now the game's beta testers from that time going forward lol!
As far as my hopes for TESO, I'd like it to bring back Adventuring into MMORPG's, that has been a lost element for quite some time. I still play Skyrim, because it really makes me travel all over the realm looking for just anything I may have missed. An NPC that has a quest that I didn't get, a dungeon, cave, fort, anything that I may have missed in my travels. Special items I may have overlooked, all kinds of things because in Skyrim, 98% of it is fully explorable. Every building, house, fort, chest, closet, all of it can be opened or lock picked. There is so much you can be doing on your own like that, it would be hard to be bored.
Dungeons for groups, I've heard that some don't want them instanced. I however would like them to keep them instanced, there is nothing worse than having to compete for a boss, or having a group of people ( Farmers ) that sit at a certain boss and camp it till they get all they want from it, or just come in for harrassment puproses to mess up your encounter because they can. We would like to think people are nice enough to not do that, but lets be realistic here, we know better! Experience with this kind of system has definitely given proof to that. Yeah there are some people out there with that kind of respect, but not as much as there are those that don't.
The other thing is about the Three Realm Split, if they don't allow you to play all three realms? So? Pick the one has what you want most of. I had to do this back in DAoC, but then again, they had more than one server so I do understand the position this puts some of us in. But I do feel for the PvP end of this, it needs to be that way. Just because you have two other realms you can't go into with your character doesn't mean you're getting cheated at all. In DAoC the realms were huge inside their own. Then the PvP ( Frontiers ) was just as big. So I don't see a problem personally with this. I must admit though, I am concerned with the so called "Mega Server" system they're using. I'd liked to of at least had a choice to play one of the other realms on another server. At this point I'd say have three "Mega Servers" so that players can have that option.
My main thing about this post if anything at all, is that I have faith in The Elder Scrolls Online to do their best to bring things in line with what a MMORPG should be and not what everyone right now is currently calling an MMORPG. Lets be serious, if we wanted to keep playing the same game over and over, we'd never left the game that originally gave us all that and or be yerning so much for something new, something GREAT to make it's way out and save us from our constant let downs of recent times. So if anything, don't be backseat developers, let them do their job, we'll do ours and play the game if we like it. If not? Then find one that makes us happy and play that. For me? I've had Skyrim since release and I'm still playing it!
Guild Leader for Order of Sanity
Greetings one and all!
We are The Gamers Clique!
What the name stands for basically is that we look at ourselves as one big Clique, one all inclusive Group! We don't believe in small cliques within a guild, we think that kind of play is bad for the guild as a whole. What we mean is, when you have a small group of people that only work within a small circle of people within the guild and exclude all others, you're not helping anyone but yourselves. At that point you should probably just make a guild of your own as basically that is what you've become. But with us, we believe that we should work as a team, work as a guild, work together whenever possible. This is why we've chosen this name for our guild, well at least one of the reasons. I'll get to the others later on our own site.
With all of this aside however, we are looking for active, mature players that want a guild on the Anvil Rock server that is not into being hardcore anything but fun. We're a Drama free guild, we will not have any of the nonsense you see in general chat or other guilds that just cater to those types of players. It doesn't matter to us if we're considered the best at anything we do as long as we're having fun that's all that matters.
As far as recruitment goes, we are open to ALL classes and ALL levels. Anyone at this current time can invite you to the guild, just message any of our members to invite you. The more players we get at varying play times, the better. Now as far as our plans go? Yeah if we can get a good group of players wanting to do Dungeons ( Which I totally encourage ) and Raids later, we'll do them. We have in WoW, Rift, LotRO, SWTOR and will more than likely do here as well.
We have our own Ventrilo server, Website ( Which everyone needs to join on for any Guild only functions including raids ).
We're small at this point and have no plans to become a HUGE guild. I can see us around 100+ and leveling off around there. To me any bigger and we'd be taking away from the personal level of our guild. We're very laid back and easy going about gaming. Some of us are always hanging out in Ventrilo so all members are welcome to join us there for that one, it's not mandatory unless we're doing Dungeons or Raids.
If this seems like a guild you'd like to be a part of? Check us out on our Website and or get with us in game, we are on the Anvil Rock server!
Hmmm, I've been playing MMO's since 2001, Dark Age of Camelot. Played it for 6 years, then went to WoW and played that one for 7 years. Between all that time I also tried several other MMO's, did Beta Tests on a few here and there. After that much experience in playing MMO's, I'm naturally a fast leveler as almost every MMO that has come out, has the same basic way of leveling. Point, Target, Click and Kill! Pick this quest up, that one, all of them, finish them and turn them in! Rinse and Repeat then move to the next zone....
Well at least with GW2 here, while it's still repetitive just like ALL games are. I've yet to play even a single player that isn't repetitive to some degree. But at least with this one, you don't have to rush anything. Heck, I was level 26 in the 1-15 zones on my Asura Elementalist. Not even finished with the 15 - 25 zone I have gone in to and I'm almost 34. Typically by now I'd be almost level capped in other games. I'm considered some what of a fast leveler, only because I know how to figure out patterns in games design pretty quickly. I could easily level super fast here, but! This time around I have chosen not to.
Thing is, I don't care who you are, what you think, how you go about it. If you're 70 to 80 within the first week? The only thing responsible for your burnout is you. Nothing wrong with enjoying the game so much you can't put it down for a second. But instead of just flying through zones and such, goof off once in a while, have a bit of fun. Don't be in a hurry to do a dang thing and just try to make friends and get others to join you. Try socializing in the game more. I mean, there are a lot of ways to distract the so called grind to max level ( Not that this is all that much of a grind, I hit my 30's without even trying ).
This is a problem I see with all games that come out, hell even Skyrim which is NOT an online game at all. I've heard about the ones that beat that game completely within it's first week and that's no small task mind you. But that is what burns you out on stuff, when you go that hard at it. Problem is, since all games have similar design factors, you find yourself doing it in every game you go to. This is largely due to gaming companies rushing products out for one main reason, Money! Games have gotten away from being quality over quantity, especially the MMO market. MMO's used to be the games no average person would play because it was fee based. But because of it being fee based, they could put a lot of work into expansions ( Both downloadable free expansions and the once a year to two year paid for expansions ). But they've gotten away from this, thus, we get short lived MMO's that barely last six months before people are whining and complaining ( for that matter, like Rift, a Month ).
Personally I'd like to see MMO's go backward a bit, go back to where everything took a long time to do. Back to where you gained if you were lucky, 2 levels a day at the mid to high end. Also put challenge back into it, be more creative and come up with rich story lines with quests that follow and flow with the story as apposed to having the story just be some sideline thing you read here and there. Get away from the lets put more out faster then end up dumping the previous one to focus on the new ones because you already made your profit off of it for six months if you're lucky. I'd like it to be more like what a MMO should be, not just some game like a stand alone you buy and next month you're thinking of the next game to purchase.
When I can take a character in WoW from 1 to 85 in far less than 10 days played time with crafting going up with it and doing other sideline things like PvP and such? Yeah, it's too easy to level and that in itself does nothing but rush people to the end and leave them wanting more and having to wait which bingo! Burnout happens! All gaming companies are guilty of this now and I think they should reverse this a bit and stick to their guns. Stop making everything easy mode!