Originally posted by stayontarget

I hear good things from Red Engine and of course UE3 is good also.

No....

For an MMO UE3 is not.

Nor is REDengine for that matter.

Neither of those were written to handle themselves as an MMO, and the UE3 engine has proven that fact in real attempt.

Originally posted by forest-nl

 

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Originally posted by DukeTyrion
The 'new' MMOs are catering for the 'new' MMO players, and they are doing it well.
 
Many new MMO player want things quickly and easily. They want fast levelling, they want Looking for Dungeon tools to match them, they want easy access to Epics (even if not top level Epics) and they want instant travelling. That's all fine, there are games there that serve them well and many more on the way that seem to be copying that formula.
 
However, there are a great many MMO players that want something different. That want to travel the lands, that actually enjoy arranging groups, and that want a nice drop they find at level 20 to be worth holding onto because they will use it for a while, not replace it with a 'green' in 30 minutes game time.
 
I really think it's time one of the MMO developers start to realise they have 2 very different fan bases on their hands, and rather than try and cater to both, they need to actually create 2 different games. The WoW / Rift / SW:TOR crowd can then go along their way, whilst those looking for something a bit deeper (Everquest / DAoC / EVE) can also find their own challenge.
 
I am not trying to say either way is better, I am just trying to say we all have a very different idea of what makes an enjoyable game and I am really hoping that one of the latter type appears on the horizon soon. It might even surprise the company that takes the plunge at quite how popular it would be.

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Darkfall a superb sandbox game had all of this but you all trashed the game even before it started endlessly and many still do.

So dont come here and say you want a game that offers what Darkfall already have. and also dont come with pvp and full loot or community becouse you mentioned EVE and community Darkfall is lightyears ahead alot more friendly and helping then majority of these themepark games.

Btw the community who want hardcore back is very small only starter indie developers will try create such games. But when they create a game like that you all start whining its way to hardcore to long travel to much grind or no hold hands lol.

And don't look to soundboard your complaints aganst something that has little to none to do with your rant.

In the same line they mentioned EVE they also listed DAoC and Everquest. It's apparent they aren't talking about strict PvP, full loot, etc stuff. 'Hardcore' maybe, but you're defaulting to a very specific form and implementation that was not specified.

Take a chill pill and reasses the conversation. :p

I take it you didn't actively read the novels, comics, or other media?

Y'know the strangest thing for me is that I've really been enjoying this game.

Which I really find weird given the amount of time I've spent before stating my disfavor of games that have the same basic gameplay that tor uses. Makes me feel somewhat hypocritical because I still don't like that gameplay style.

I definitely chalk that up to a better interactive experience.

Well, that and the agent class both looks and plays well. Much prettier than the smuggler. Too bad I have to work with the sith though. >_>

Like how it has been restated multiple times, and even by EA in that quote I gave from the article YOU posted. You get billed at the start of a new billing cycle, when you pay for a sub you aren't paying upfront you are flagging it to be paid on a schedule.

Like they said. 'you will not actually be billed until your free 30 days are up, at which point, you can cancel the sub before your credit card is billed'

Seriously, if you've played MMOs this long you should know this by now.

EDIT: Also I have commented in the other threads. They've been getting paired down as such.

Oh dear lord.

I can't help it if you you lie Azaria. That's not my problem.

Don't start throwing out debate argument comments like 'burden of proof' as if that provides an intellectual high ground on something. And no true scotsman uses that arbitrary claim of authority 'those of us'.

How about I make an appeal to popularity then? Most people, even those claiming a history of MMO gaming, are claiming this is normal. Majority vote says you're wrong.

I'd be happy to provide a source that lists the history of the way subscriptions worked for each MMO if such a thing existed, but the best I can personally offfer at the time is my firsthand experience, as others have provided.

Also need to correct you that if you cancel your TOR sub before the free time runs out, it doesn't bar your access to the free game time. It runs to the end of the given time to where it would launch the next billing cycle and terminates there.

EDIT: Also have to note how most of us have also pointed out how games like WoW and EVE have changed specifically to doing that post release date. Like in the case of WoW it's because they added an unlimited free trial period a while back now.

Trying to take what eveyrone else has said and ad-lib the opposing argument into it doesn't work well in this case Azaria.

Originally posted by Azaria

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1215364p1.html

Its not illigal but its not ordianry or ethical. This is highly out of the oridiary.

Funny, the comments there are filled with  'That's normal.'

The article even says

'EA quickly points out that this is standard MMO business, and you will not actually be billed until your free 30 days are up, at which point, you can cancel the sub before your credit card is billed.'

XD 

And I repeat myself.

If he gets it, then there's no reason he should be throwing a hissy fit.

There has to be something that he's fundamentally rejecting or can't agree with that cuases him ro react as such. Otherwise he simply has no self control.

And that is hardly any better.

Then I have to ask when you played them Azaria, because like I said that was their nature at release. Not necessarily at later date.

Because, well, yeah.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Deivos

Originally posted by nerovipus32

They don't charge you unless you play past the initial 30 days free peroid..nothing illegal only peoples stupidity.

If only stupidity were illegal though. T_T

At the least have a 'reading comprehension or death penalty' law so threads like this stop happening when the box and everything else has explanations on them.

I wouldnt throw around words like that if you fail to understand the OP's point. He obviously is angry,  with a lot of hyperbole in his post as result. But he does understand that the billing information is an ADDITIONAL step (which he calls an extra hoop to jump through). That information is not needed at all untill you continue your sub after the 30 days. Many companies ask it anyway, but for other reasons.

And what did I say that was hypocritical or failed to catch the point?

Yes, the op understood the call for billing information. Great. I slighted it for stupidity, I put reading comprehension as the 'least'.

And you can't honestly think he has good reading comprehension when he's asking for legal implications over a legal disclaimer. At best he is only comprehending the blunt nature of what he's reading otherwise he wouldn't be having a hissy fit.

Defend the innocent, not the mindless.

Let me put it this way...

At release these games I played required you to subscribe before you could play at all, even if you had free game time.

Asheron's Call

Everquest

Everquest 2

Anarchy Online

Ultima Online

Matrix Online

Planetside

Saga of Ryzom

Star Wars Galaxies

Dungeons and Dragons Online

Lineage 2

EVE Online

Dark Age of Camelot

City of Heroes

Champions Online

Age of Conan

Aion

Lord of the Rings Online

I think there were others, but those are the one's I remember having to sub for to play at all when released.

Actually all three of those MMOs did back when I started off in them.

AoC actually turned out to be real finicky about my sub. :p

Originally posted by nerovipus32

They don't charge you unless you play past the initial 30 days free peroid..nothing illegal only peoples stupidity.

If only stupidity were illegal though. T_T

At the least have a 'reading comprehension or death penalty' law so threads like this stop happening when the box and everything else has explanations on them.

Originally posted by Windamere

If you look at that splash screen as you say, NO where on there does it say that if you don't set up a sub you can NOT play the 30 days you've already paid for.

Actually it did.

First day of launch and a few days on pre-release it had the welcome letter and a clear comment on the need to register your game. It seems to have been pushed off by that new code redemption notice.

EDIT: It still says it bluntly on your user profile page on their site too until you have a sub.

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Sovrath

There are always going to be rules and parameters for a sandbox. A sandbox is about your box of sand, some toys and then let your imagination run amok. But it still doesn't allow you to do anything and everything you want. It's only a box of sand. And maybe some of those platic starfish things...

 

But where's the "sand" in skyrim?

Yes, you can choose where to go and which quests to accept - but that's all there is. There is no way to "shape" the world. Thus, Skyrim isn't a sandbox in my book, just like Fallen Earth isn't a sandbox.

Incorrect.

PC version of Skyrim wil be receiving the support of official mod tools (like the previous bethesda titles) and supports the capacity to alter and extend the content of the title in most every aspect. They expose the entire content archive of the game to modding and people can and have done total conversions of the previous titles Oblivion and Morrowind.

Like for example in Oblivion players actually modded and added the entire continent of Morrowind into Oblivion. The land, flora, fauna, quests, all of it.

Even without the official mod tools people have all ready started building new content for Skyrim, including changing the terrain, modifying or adding houses, etc.

Skyrim is very much a sandbox in the true sense of the term.

But that's not the main reason why I'd say it works for people.

Why Skyrim works where many don't is because Bethesda built a world. Things feel like they get done around you, NPCs both friendly and enemy have activities and lifecycles and you can influence them to one degree or another, monster creatures have routines that interact with other creatures in the environment. When you go fihing you're actually looking for fish physically swimming in the water, or collecting butterfly wings for ingredients you're actually trying to catch butterflies.

And the grind. Yes people find many ways to grind skills in Skyrim and others. But you don't have to in SKyrim. Your enemies generally scale to skill and more so it's dependent on the type of enemy it is in the first place. You can run into wolves any time,but a wolf remains a wolf. You can run into togers, but they will remain tigers, bandits don't suddenly all become badasses, but you will other kinds that will challenge you. Point being that you don't have to inherently grind for many things in this game, because the progression of character and challenge are designed to flow naturally with you as you explore the world.

In other words, it provides a free flowing experience that lets players just go out and explore the variety set before them.

They get to play in a world, not just a box.

So this entire thread is essentially just about turbocontroller setups and third party macro?

...No one has mentioned how that's an option for all games?

At least a 'No duh'?

The defining line is the presence of players.

League of Legends? Not an MMO because there just isn't anything massive about the amount of players. There aren't more than ten-ish on a server or within an instance of the game at any given moment.

SWTOR has similar issues with instancing, but they aren't as stunted as a multiplayer game. Unlike League of Legends, Global Agenda, or whichever other fragmented game you pick, the core zones on SWTOR house a large amount of players that can fully interact with one another.

The difference of SWTOR is that they partitioned off areas for personal story, those areas are limited not by performance capability, but for the sake of narrative so they could add more to the events (though they could have done a similar thing with better use of phasing and that might have made it a bit more seamless to gamers).

So I'd be drawing the line in MMOs distinctively at their namesake. 'Massively Multiplayer Online' If it doesn't at least approximate that massive part within the actual game, than it's not an mmo. In spite of complaints some whiners, SWTOR does actually support open zones with tons of players all swinging their sabers and shooting things (though to be fair they also still use instances for these zones when it gets too crowded).

1. Planetside
2. Mount & Blade
3. Battlefield
4. Rainbow Six
5. Starcraft
6. Warcraft
7. Asheron's Call
8. Elder Scrolls
9. Fallout
10. Secret of Mana
11. Kingdom Under Fire
12. Deus Ex
13. Saints Row
14. Mega Man
15. Diablo
16. Neverwinter Nights
17. Half Life
18. DDO
19. Star Wars Jedi Knight
20. Portal
21. Quake
22. Savage
23. Tribes (mostly Renegade mod)
24. Uplink
25. Borderlands
26. CoX
27. Minecraft
28. Mass Effect
29. Spore

For me it was probably Auto Assault or one of the random little f2p games I tried early on.

EDIT: Still active...APB.