All Posts by Deivos

I don't have any problem with the purpose of the petition. I just think petitions are an insurmountable waste of time, something akin to making a blog about your life and hoping people on the web care for some arbitrary reason about this person they will never meet...

The best option would be what Keeper said. Those things actually go directly to Mythic, and if they're arriving in volume from different accounts, they become more likely to respond.

Posting a petition on a ton of boards, three of which I know are the only ones Mythic Devs go to, only one being their frequent stop, means all you really do with a petition thrown everywhere is...well...nothing.

And in good humor...

"Originally posted by Roguewiz

Well err, I petition the petitioner of the petition to stop petitioners from petitioning, in hopes that said petitioner doesn't make a petition again."

I petition to neglect the petition of another petitioner from barring my petitioning of a petition to stop petitioners from petitioning.

I petition to make a petition to stop petitioners from petitioning.

Well I would hope not to be the one to say it, but...

While you are correct Signus, you're also kinda wrong. At least I hope...

The hope banking on whether or not people actually mean they want a KotOR cloned into an MMO, or a KotOR MMO with a similar concept.

Yes, you can't take a game that's highly linear and turn it into a true MMO. The farthest you can get is a game like Guild Wars.

However, the basic mechanics of the game is something that can be transposed (unless you're talking about Oblivion, which would kill a server way too fast), and that alongside an involved and branching questline that either mirriors the storylines from the game or uses the lore built up as a premise for world events, that can work.

If they do something like AC did with the ability to inscribe items that would be cool.

That I think might be nicer, because you have the ability to do your ow thing with your items, like write the name of ever important person you kill on your weapon, inscribe your name and such on items you craft, get famous players to sign your gear....

I keep seeing people talk about skill in new games. These very same games I try out, and you know what? I keep finding myself thinking a monkey could play the things.

This might be a personal problem stemming from me playing a lot of Go, Risk, Axis & Allies, Civ, and other strategy games along side shooters and tactical shooters. It may also be my continued love of Go along with tactical shooters and some RTS games as well.

Because when I hop on these games looking for a tactical challenge, I quickly figure out that it's mostly just routines.

A power vs B power requires you to do C, without fail.

Every game, it's a routine.  The NPCs don't learn new ways to counter you when you do the same thing over and over again, it doesn't adapt in any way.

And the players aren't really much better. Most end up using a small subset of predictable powers and strategies that I can counter, and rarely seem to have the upper hand unless the game boils down to a comparison of who has the bigger stick, which thankfully not even WoW is truly that messed up (within reason).

I guess I just need help understanding. What is it that people think skill is nowadays?

Because whatever it is, it's not what it used to be.

Originally posted by bam555

clearly you people didn't play the game very long...Ive seen lvl 30s stomp lvl 45s based purely on skill and strategy. also bosses at higher lvls take tons of skill and strategy. you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. this is one of the most skill based mmos ive ever played. you even compared it to checkers. though it is more like chess(a game of skill and strategy) and then said it wasnt for hardcore gamers because they like skill and strategy, have you even tried fighting people with skill in free league? have you even made it past bran castle? or are you basing your assumptions with how easy the game is in the noob area? this game is based mainly on strategy and skill...you sir are a hypocrit.

Yes, I have, and that is my opinion. Their might be people out there with more skill to apply to the game then it really requires, but when the average player can figure out how to beat a boss, then it's not as technical as what you just tried making it out to be.

I am not a hypocrite for anything I said. I said that to me the game was easy, which is true. Trampling my way to 80 shouldn't be as easy as the time I had.

Perhaps you didn't read my commentary before on the Eve forum, but I had a bit of a speal on actual player skill. I'm not going to repeat something that long, suffice to say there's a lot of brackets for the amount of skill an individual player might have, and not to sound cocky, but I'm in a higher one than this game.

Even if this game is like Chess, it's still not Go. I don't want to have to argue it all the way out to make you understand, but I'm not going to take hostility either from someone wanting to defend their little bubble from honesty.

o.0

Jade Empire and Mass Effect bad?

Guess I'll have to get your opinion on why those were bad, because I enjoyed both of them immensly.

Personally I was kinda hoping that they would take the things they've learned since KotOR and apply it to an MMO with a basic mechanic similar to Mass Effect, just with the needed changes such as user interface. Really, I went back to their older games and found that the long pausing and some of the other mechanics that they changed really made the game a little disjointed and pulled me way too easily out of the game.

I would rather see Bioware do it's own thing with KotOR, mainly because it will posthumiously sink otherwise.

Difference is I  guess that I support the direction they're moving in modern times because their stories are as great as ever and their gameplay caters well to my playstyle hopefully without killing it for the casual players. I would hope at least, given it's not that hard of a game still...

Personally I want an MMO that follows along the same kinda basic game play that Bioware is great at with the addition of all the fun stuff like crafting, economy, open worlds, player generated zones and partially quests and events, and the odd instances to handle some of the stuff that never changes like raids(you know raids are going to be there even if you don't want them, so just prepare for the worst :P).

And dear lord, if someone wants to make sense, then don't say that they're going after the most subs then say that is why it's going to be like WoW. People have tried doing that all ready and it just doesn't work. It just won't work.

If someone wants a game like WoW, then play WoW. That's what most people do, that's also why most are disappointed by new MMOs. All they keep seeing are rehashes of the same game they all ready play, and thusly see WoW as the original and best. That's not going to change when you throw lightsabers into the mix.

You have to do something different it you want any reasonable market share, and that's why I'm hoping Bioware will stick to their guns and add in things to their own traditional system from SWG and such to make their own style of great gaming.

I have to agree with the complainers that this game is not for a hardcore gamer.

It at least isn't for the traditional hardcore gamer, namely the ones who are known to love skill based games and heavy strategy games.

I guess you could argue that this game takes strategy, which I would agree with. However, I am inclined to say that this game is more like a game of Checkers as opposed to being an all out strategy game like Go.

While it was interesting for a while, falling into the inevitable routine of paying for items from the shop and hammering my way through mobs and players up the tiers and levels just leaves me wondering why I'm doing it. As soon as I fall into a pattern that unerringly lets me win, there's a problem.

No challenge is no fun for me. And sadly, that's what this game results in.

Is it a solid game? Yes, Is it polished pretty well? Yes

Do I enjoy it? No, But that's just me. Obviously there's people out there that see some kind of challenge and fun in this though, so like all games, everyone should give it a try, even if they're like me and get bored of it, at least they are making an informed decision.

Asheron's Call and Planetside.

Originally posted by Soraellion

Originally posted by Deivos

 

No grind in Eve unless I impose it on myself...ok so I will admit no one HAS TO mine, craft, do those repetivite quests, train up skills, or anything else.

Honestly, what else are you doing that something inevitably repetitive in order to improve yourself in that game? There's only so many things you can do to begin with.

 

And the bigger gun statement holds up as an example even in your case, as the smaller ship doesn't mean it's a worse ship, you just move in and out of range and keep to the larger ships drafts and you're safe, whoopty doo, nothing new.

 

And I can get you trying to defend player skill in this game, but honestly it's rather a aggrandized view of what people are doing. There's just the basic tactics for the most part. In other words, what you SHOULD do given your particular vessel and stats vs your opponent. Perhaps it's because I come from strategy games and tactical games, but I honestly have never had any issues in PvP when I played, and that was the problem. It was too easy to win. If I wasn't playing properly, then what was I supposed to do, turn my brain off?

 

I don't mine, the only misisons I ever ran was to get a lvl 4 locator agent, I don't need to grind faction, xp or anything. Cash I make doing different things; PVP and trading mostly. I'm wealthy enough to never run into cash trouble unless I do stupid things. Thing is I do things that are fun at that moment in time, the game doesn't force me to do anything unlike other MMO's. If you go by your definition then life itself is a grind and if you follow that idea there's nothing that can help you, certainly not some MMO.

I kill cruisers, BC's and even BS's (at times) with a T1 frigate, sometimes I switch ship to be able to counter them ofcourse and we're not talking nanocrap here. Not boasting but just stating how it is/can be.

Your last part is funny; You state understanding your strengths/weaknesses and those of your target's as not needing skill. You state having tactical awareness os not needing skill. Appearantly it does, otherwise you wouldn't have the upper hand so often (as you state). Again, if you don't see tactical awareness/game knowledge as a skill then WHAT is? Having a 0.0001 reaction time? Knowing how to bunnyhop?

EVE isn't a simulation, it's an RTS where you need lots of peopleskills once you get higher up. That's what it is.

 

Was thinking about it a bit, and yes I have to admit I have a pretty narrow view of skill. I was defining skill as having the knowledge and understanding to accurately predict the battle and what needs to be done beforehand and knowing the outcome more or less as being skill.

I can admit that skill is obviously more than that, but you're still giving too much credit to Eve. Let me put it in view by comparing it to the army. What is a grunt taught?

On a basic level, exactly what you said. They have to have tactical awareness on the battlefield, be able to properly assess targets, and be able to plan out strategy to attack.

What is a spec ops taught?

A hell of a lot more. On a basic level they have to know and understand factions and individual mentalities, predict situations that they haven't even entered into yet, understand and assess threats well before direct confrontation, etc.

What does a General know?

Enough to make you never want to play Go against them. They have to be able to understand their enemy fully prior to engagement, they have to understand fully the time/resources/effort it takes for each individual engagement prior to action. They have to be able to ensure an outcome before a single soldiers foot touches the ground.

Obviously there's pretty much no game that requires that much planning, not even an RTS. That doesn't stop one from being able to apply such skills moderately well to the game.

Neither does this change though, that it is not needed, and by in large in any battle larger than 1v1 the idea of true skill and strategy frequently breaks down in favor of players zerging and throwing the most powerful things they have at one another.

And of course you're not boasting, you can't be, because you would be boasting that you're beating people that for all intensive purposes obviously have no clue what they're doing.

And I still stand by the grind remark, as while you don't have to practice any skills actively to train them up, you do have to do something, and that something is pretty limited. PvP and trading...great so you shoot people and sell stuff. As a person said before, If I really found interest in that I would work on Wall Street (though it would probably be economically safer to do that stuff in Eve right now. ). Point being, you're still doing the same things again and again. Buy/sell, blow up and salvage, or just meander about and stare at planets and space stations.

Life being a grind only happens when you don't look to do something new and innovate. Unlike Eve, you can think up new things and actually do them rather than hope it gets added in a future patch. I can at least get out of my car and walk about all ready.

Originally posted by Soraellion

- There is no grind in EVE, only if you impose it onto yourself. Your choice

- I kill bigger ships while flying smaller ships, small corps can completely anihilate bigger ones. The "bigger gun" idea doesn't neccesarily hold up. Sure, if you go for the obvious and go in headfirst then yeah but if you play it smart then it doesn't have to be. Again, that's a choice... it really is.

- the idea that any game takes skill is debatable, thing is that EVE mostly takes other kinds of skills than most games/MMO's. Playerskill is much more a factor than in most other MMO's, age isn't neccesarily a factor. If you really think it is then you haven't understood/played EVE properly (no offense, just a statement).

 

 

 

No grind in Eve unless I impose it on myself...ok so I will admit no one HAS TO mine, craft, do those repetivite quests, train up skills, or anything else.

Honestly, what else are you doing than something inevitably repetitive in order to improve yourself in that game? There's only so many things you can do to begin with.

And the bigger gun statement holds up as an example even in your case, as the smaller ship doesn't mean it's a worse ship, you just move in and out of range and keep to the larger ships drafts and you're safe, whoopty doo, nothing new.

And I can get you trying to defend player skill in this game, but honestly it's rather a aggrandized view of what people are doing. There's just the basic tactics for the most part. In other words, what you SHOULD do given your particular vessel and stats vs your opponent. Perhaps it's because I come from strategy games and tactical games, but I honestly have never had any issues in PvP when I played, and that was the problem. It was too easy to win. If I wasn't playing properly, then what was I supposed to do, turn my brain off?

That's exactly why I've dropped most MMOs and turned my attention back to shooters and such.

One statement I stand by is that I would return to DAoC in a heartbeat if they were able to make the feel and physics of the game modern, in other words pick up the pace a little in combat, make jumping less wimpy, and make general movement just faster. Animations might need improvement, but that's not much of an issue.

Hell, what I really want to see is a new Planetside with AI and better physics alongside a 3rd person skill based rpg MMO so I can have my fun massive shooter and slightly more lighthearted romp about game.

Think that analogy needs reworking to be accurate.

It would be more like hopping on a BF 2142 server and playing a support class, but never making it out of any spawn points because all the existing players are entrenched with upgraded sniper rifles waiting for players to spawn.

Though all games currently seem to suffer it to one degree or another. That's mostly because players make up for low skill with invested time and go for the open targets rather than challenge themselves.

This is an open issue in Eve, but that's nothing new as pretty much every games that has PvP has this issue in one form or another, so I ain't about to hold that against them.

I will complain however, about the game mechanics itself. The whole game has a sense of detachment in it for me, like the fact that I can't personally control things, I have to use menus and such to really do everything I want, which means the game is basically just wading through menu options and hotkeys while staring at a little ship and some pretty pictures.

In the long run the game is rather predictable and ponderous. There never was any sense of excitement to me while PvPing because it was just to easy to follow a procedure and make sure you have the biggest gun.

Guess my issue with this game boils down to the same as many other games as well now a days, it really takes no skill. Player capability is more or less related directly to time invested and nothing more. You can't think up new ways to use abilities because they just don't do anything but what they're narrow concept was made for, you can't pull off a really neat stunt in PvP to throw players off (unless they're bleeding idiot to begin with, in which case you don't have to do anything special to begin), and there's no real interest or ability to innovate in crafting.

It's more or less the ultimate grinding game. Which obviously there's quite a few people out there that enjoy that, but as an older gamer that is all to fond of those games long gone like AC and my shooters, I just can't get behid the idea of games without skill actually being fun and attention grabbing.

EDIT: In short, the game ended up being a little easy and quickly boring for me.

Originally posted by SonofSeth

 The point is that jumping is fun. 

The point is the flashy stuff, the sounds and animations, sum of all that makes the combat flow. All those stuff you consider inferior when talking about combat, all of that is the point.

It is also reasonable that you would put emphasys on the technical side of combat, because that is what you think is the most important part. Actually, the only way you can put WoW combat and combat of other MMOs on the same level is if you strip it down to it's basic features and in that regard it can be looked upon as average combat system, but those basic features are not what make it flow.

So yes, timing of hits and speed, and the fact that you just can't resist but bump that spacebar with your thumb every now and then, not becasue it will make you hit harder or run faster but just to see your little dude launch himself in the air with arms wide and knees curling to his chest, or if you play a night elf, just to see if you will get a normal jumping animations or the flip jumping animation.

 

So in other words people like it because it's dolled up. :p

Should have figured as much, but even then it's not much of a hop and leap to once again reference DDO where you can do all the same things, and they actually affect the game.

Even in the case of  WAR again, there's really not much of a difference at all in that respect to how the combat plays out. Hell even going back to FFOnline or L2 you can get the same kinda thing going on.

I will agree, player control in WoW is pretty much the most esponsive and active feeling system I've seen in an mmo, though TR as bad as it's mechanics is can match the feeling of movement pretty well. Not even WAr, while it does come close, has yet to really match that kind of feel to player movement, there are games that do that I have to assume people just haven't played at this point as a reference of comparision. AC for instance moved very well, though it's animation set is rather stunted and low quality compared to newer games (read: not 8+ years old)

It depresses me that things so trivial as the 'ooh shiny!' polish on a game is what maintains people's attention. Where's the actual fun part of the game to make that polish enjoyable? I got bored out of my skull after a while of doing formulaic raids and endlessly grinds of PvP for loot without any real purpose.

That's a personal opinion I guess though...

I'm just rather burnt out on games right now, WoW has too simple of core mechanics to keep my attention, and WAR is interesting and all but can't maintain my attention. Personally, I don't think there's any game out there right now with all that outstanding of gameplay mechanics as well as polish...

From the OP

"by combat I mean the timing of hits and speed"

I addressed that point. So there's a different reason than the one stated as the reason for the thread in the first place?

There's the actual mechanics of the combat that can be adressed, the pacing of the combat, the flow of the combat, and the animations. That's all that there really is to talk about combat and judge it on, and that's what I commented on.

Hell I even threw in that blurb about how flashy combat attracts more attention and it's correlation to WoW and other games.

I commented on all things that actually pertain to what combat is and how it relates to the quality of it, flow and all.

So what is the point if not that?

Originally posted by SonofSeth

Originally posted by Deivos

And again, in DDO all those things people like to think matter, like flipping backwards while turning to take a potshot as a ranger, actually works instead of meerely being a line of sight.

 

But oh well, people will like what they know, and damn if anything else is better even if there's proof.

 

And again, this thread is not about if jumpind actually makes you hit harder or dodge better.

But oh well, people need to demonise what they don't like, and damn if it even makes sense.

Then if you're just talking about the 'standing there and whacking away' combat that WoW has same as GW(which also has decent animations and pacing) or WAR (which has decent animations but could use some work while having a similar if not stepped up pacing as well).

The point I was making is that bottom line if you really know that many other games, you also know that WoW isn't much different in terms of quality of animation and pacing. Basically most action sequences in a modern MMO takes less than a couple seconds between each auto attack combined with the powers thrown in. Older MMOs tend to have a slower pace to them (except AC, which while I would consider it to have sub par animation, has better combat mechanics and pacing).

Realistically, people would only consider the quality of WoWs combat better because of either a limited scope of comparison, a faulty comparison to first pass or incomplete systems such as in newly released games where they haven't tweaked around with the animations for lingering hiccups and such yet, and the arbitrary additions.

Jumping around like an idiot is a valid point to bring up, especially when you consider just how many people do it. It becomes a valid point when it becomes a common place aspect of players routine in combat. It becomes a valid point when people in the same thread BEFORE me mention it as being a nice thing to be able to do in combat (read: don't single me out without knowing the reasons for my remark).

Don't care about jumping? Fine, I'll talk about how the system is no bloody different in terms of actual quality and pacing to L2,  EQ2, in the long run WAR (read a month or two for error fixing, which WoW had to do with animations and combat as well I might mention), and it in all technical senses still not as good as DDO in terms of interactivity and functionality of combat while maintaining smooth and consistent combat with a quick and comfortable pacing.

Hell, have you done an end raid in WoW? The combat for some might be fun, but I find it to be rather boring after the first run mainly because in the first place all I'm doing is tagging onto my target and plinking away on my hunter watching a couple bars go down as if it was cool. I don't have to move, I don't have to do squat, I just stand there and shoot...

Not much different for tanks either, you run in and whack the big guy, you don't have to move or do anything other than hit a couple powers and occasionally pull another mob if the boss spawns one.

It rather seems people over play the quality of WoW for a couple reasons. One is they like the game and have to justify why they like the game by proving it's better than other games. This is just human nature. Hell I love Planetside, but even I admit that game is severely lacking in modern terms. Doesn't stop me from playing it whenever I have the chance. You know why? Because even though it has shoddy physics, no NPCs and a low amount of players, I still enjoy hopping online and going to a zone with 300 other players and blowing the hell out of one another.

The second reason is the flare.  The combat i the game is designed to look very shiny and have lots of crushing, slicing, and whacking sounds combined with bright flashes and long arcs of pretty colors to give the player the sense that their attacks are really strong and do alot. Which this works! Not many games outside eastern mmos do it to the same degree as WoW mostly because it gets outlandish rather fast, but WoW hit a happy medium between giant booms and personal thwacks. Which I kinda like this aspect because of that. If they played it up a bit more in other western games people might not be so apt to think less of them.

Eve Online has physics? o.0