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All Posts by pkpkpk

All Posts by pkpkpk

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72 posts found

If I were going to play an online game, I would be half as likely to play League of Legends as an MMO. They are both bad, but at my age, signing up to punch the clock on another MMO is not very appealing. I have watched a friend play games like GW2--with long tutorial and hordes of zombies hitting for 1 damage, and earth-shattering special moves at level 2--and gone back and played some of the classics on private servers, but with games like EQ, WoW, and FFXI I know what I am in for, and it is not something that I want to commit my life to.


I saw your thread on WoW and thought it made a lot of sense. That WAS the best MMO around, at least back at WotLK. It probably still is, for all I know. But they broke my heart with Cataclysm. So many old memories, gone. Also, the talent trees--no sense of lower level balance. Easier dungeons, faster leveling, I think they even give you a free level 100 now--it is all about the end-game. Those days of yore are gone. Only Emerald Dream and WoW Rebirth are preserving them.

Most people already shorten it to MMO, which stands for . . . Massively Multiplayer Online, which is gibberish. I think the removal of the role-playing part is the most telling. You no longer play a role; it is simply a game. Nothing better exemplifies this than instances, which violate the laws of space and time, just so that you can kill identical monsters as other ostensible heroes are doing it. I am now a level 60 Death Knight Lord . . . make way for the Lich King . . . which 100 other level 60 Death Knight Lords are killing at the same time . . .

It is a lot like restaurants. If one opens up and serves healthful food that tastes alright but is not going to give you diabetes or make you obese, but another opens up down the street with food that tastes great (to a certain palette) but has a pound of butter and oil in it, the majority is going to go to that one.

MMORPGs are indeed in a rut. But the main thing I do not see is challenge, gripping action from level one, dungeon-crawling, etc.  Even going back to EQ so much of the action in these games has seemed to focus on standing in one place in an outdoor area, killing a safe, static group of monsters. I imagine an MMO with a much more dangerous frontier--mostly only wildlife in the overworld areas, but in caves, fortresses, etc., hostile entities, which have reasons for killing them. When people talk about the "glory days" of EQ I often think of standing in the Oasis killing crocodiles.  Heroism, power, and fame should be earned, and there is no better way to do this than to enter into dangerous areas, at risk of experience, items, and life, and come out victorious. Anything less is a treadmill, and at no point do I support "tutorials"--that is what the manual is for. Sadly, if games like this were not made in '99, they will not be made now. That is why I voted yes.
You are right: there are no barriers to entry in a F2P game, not in the acquisition of it, or in getting to max level. It is an easy, safe experience, whether in a group or by yourself.
Originally posted by Dibdabs

Mmorpgs these days are solo games and the reason they are like this is because it's what the vast majority of players want. They want content that can be soloed instead of having to go through the hell of random PUG groups that barely converse anyway and which will only stay together for the duration of one quest.   A vocal minority of players DON'T want games like this but the problem is with society at large, not the games themselves.  All games include chatting and grouping facilities, but a LOT of people don't want to use these functions and blaming the game for this is missing the point.

I don't see any reason why I should exchange textspeak and acronyms with strangers when I can be voice-chatting with 3 or 4 real-life friends or family members as I play.  I'm being social with people that matter to me, not with people that are just pixels running around on a screen that I have zero interest in.

This is the difference between games now and then. Back in the EQ days, it was highly unlikely that anyone had three-to-four real-life friends who played the game, much less family members. The Internet was not popular, and online games even less so. Being alone, people experienced the game like a book. Now in big social groups they approach them like an episode of Mystery Science Theater 2000. Things like challenge, down-time, and strategy are intolerable to these groups, and the developer is in danger of losing not one, but three or four players if the game is challenging. How you design a game for a group of people whose priorities are not in engrossing themselves, but in amusing themselves, is quite different. And you are right, the vast majority--in fact nearly everyone on Earth--is more interested in their real life than their in-game life.  This is only compounded when their participation in the game coincides with their real life--that is, they are playing with people whom they know in real life.


I am with the OP in preferring a role-playing game to an e-sport or social whack-a-mole.

Graphics mean diddly squat to me if the game is bad, which it usually is if it has modern graphics.
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by pkpkpk

There were different audiences.  MMOs used to be for serious gamers.  Now they are for everyone. People still play together, but there is no need to. 

They are an extension of people's social lives now. Challenge, strategy, loss, consequence, risk, danger, down-time, etc. are not conducive to socializing.

I only know one person who still plays MMOs. He has online friends that he plays with. He gets hyped about an MMO every few weeks, plays it for that long, and quits.

EQ and its successors were boxed games that sold for $50 or so. They charged a monthly fee and required a credit card to access. Games now are free; their audience and quality reflect that.

Wow still have box price and monthly fee and yet it have the same problem so I kinda doubt that have much to do with anything.

I blame games in general, until the late 90s games were actually pretty hard and players were forced to become good.

Look on the 3 Diablo games, the first were actually pretty hard and beating diablo even in the easiest mode still took some skills. The second game suddenly was way easier and the third even more so.

Blaming the players is unfair, it is the difficulty of the games  that is so low that people never really learn to play and there is no need to group for tougher challenges because there are none.

And I doubt that people wouldn't learn fast either, I was not that old when I got my C-64 and the difficulty of most games compared to modern games were nightmarish, if kids could learn that back then then adults can learn as well.

People just don't realize anymore how fun beating a really tough challenge since games just aren't made like that anymore. And that are devs and publishers fault, not the players.

WoW was one of EQ's successors.  It is a different game now, just like all the rest. You are right, though, that it is a complex issue.

Difficulty is the main problem, but that ties in with free-to-play. If I had downloaded EQ back it 2001 along with two other MMOs, and thought EQ was too hard, I might have dropped it and gone to the others if they were easier. That was not the case: it cost roughly $60 up-front.

There are more sophisticated possibilities today. Making a request like this, as though it is so simple and easy to fulfill, that surely a company would do it, is playing right into the hands of bad game design today. When you make requests like this, you get games like DotA 2, a completely uninspired, slapdash effort. If not for crap like DotA 2, there might be an interesting competitor to League of Legends. Instead, it is polarized into a dull game with good gameplay, and an interesting game with bad gameplay. The writing on the wall is, good games are not made any more. Games have "audiences", and anything not essential to that audience is missing or unfinished.  My prediction is there not will be a single game in the 2010s that is noteworthy. Gaming, as far as I can see it, is dead as dirt.

There were different audiences.  MMOs used to be for serious gamers.  Now they are for everyone. People still play together, but there is no need to. 

They are an extension of people's social lives now. Challenge, strategy, loss, consequence, risk, danger, down-time, etc. are not conducive to socializing.

I only know one person who still plays MMOs. He has online friends that he plays with. He gets hyped about an MMO every few weeks, plays it for that long, and quits.


EQ and its successors were boxed games that sold for $50 or so. They charged a monthly fee and required a credit card to access. Games now are free; their audience and quality reflect that.

Everybody I knew who played the old MMORPGs didn't 'game with' anybody. They played by themselves. Many met their husband or wife through the game. Needless to say, they played a lot.


The difference between these games and the new games is that the old games were challenging. My longevity in a Candy Land MMORPG is measured in terms of minutes.


It's about more than that, though. A game like WoW put considerable thought into making the experience fun from the very start. I am not sure how or why good taste like that has all but disappeared from games, or if it was an accident to begin with. Such it is, though. League of Legends believes that art can be 'updated'; World of Warcraft believes that a world can be 'streamlined'.  These people sell their souls like Faust to the devil to make some money. There is always some poor sucker willing to sit in a chair if he can put bread on his table at home. People will put poison in baby formula to make some money. Ethical men where they still exist stand apart from them and the rank and file move in to take their place. The United States does not need to institute a draft; people voluntarily join the army. Cancer by definition eats away at its host.

This is already standard in a lot of MMOs as I'm sure has been mentioned. It is easier to tailor special effects to a single weapon, and less work to create and balance different weapon types. Item progression in most MMOs is by and large just a normalized mathematical function according to a template. This has been done since at least EQ2 and WoW, with their Common Yet Magical Items. Although item creation is one of the most exciting aspects of role-playing game design, it is now left to a computer to do.
Somebody beginning work on a classic MMORPG in 2013? Why bother? EQ2 was a fairly good MMORPG initially. So was FFXI, WoW,  and even Vanguard wasn't bad. Even League of Legends was good at the start.  Why are these games nothing like they were at the start now? The way I see it, the market for this type of game has dried up. If all the old ones have changed, and the only way you can justify the style is in a new game, why bother? I  have to assume it is just leverage to make a few bucks off the nostalgic crowd. To clarify, the very idea of constantly making new games to appeal to a minority of people who appreciate an older style of game seems to work against itself. If a classic EQ2 server can't be made and draw tens of thousands of people, the market is not there. But by all means, invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into shiny new graphics and sound for people who merely want what already exists. In my mind the people you will attract, if it is beyond what a classic second-generation MMORPG server can attract, will just be fair-weather customers.

You are tooting your own horn far too much.


Things have been bad for at least seven years.


Also most gamers have not grown up and matured, at least by my standards. Most are incapable of it.


You can trace terrible online games to the advent of widespread broadband Internet. It is really that simple. Once the really big idiots, and not just the normal idiots were playing games, it was all over. Truly intelligent adult gamers are rare as hen's teeth. Most adult gamers are just fat, maladjusted, ugly, disfigured, bitter, etc. Of the adult gamers I have known most have had rather bizarre relationships with games (compulsive cheating, exhibitionism (Youtube Videos), mindless, obsessive playing, well beyond the limits of the adult attention span, etc.). I would trust the devotion and judgment of these people in regards to video games as far as I could throw them. They need a wife, acceptance in society, etc. Intelligent adult gamers are by definition loners, and companies would be crazy to market to such an insignificant minority.

You are just misguided, man. Things have gotten worse on many different fronts (political, entertainment, commercial) at different periods in history. Do you honestly not believe in objectivity? If children are enjoying it then it must 'cause you're old that you can't? Children can enjoy hammering a set of pegs into a wooden board if that is all they are brought up on. One day the world is going to be a really unpleasant place. Very little that has gotten worse in the past has gotten better in the 21st century. But much of it got bad well before the 21st century. If we take an old person to be somebody who knows nothing outside of his time and cannot correlate or analyze history, then I can see your point. But if someone is this simple-minded he can probably enjoy modern games if he really wants to. Certainly, it seems to me, a more intelligent person would not lack the confidence in his own judgment to sell himself short before an audience of children and simpletons. This is a result of a common life and a weak mind.
I'll never "speed level" in a game. If it's not fun, I shitcan it.
It's more a case of Sturgeon's Law than the non-viability of it. On a smaller scale there were plenty of RPGs that were like previous ones but still good. But MMORPGs have to be more than good. People who value their time are not going to grind through an uninspired, unfinished game.
Rift in its current state is trash. I never played it at launch, but it's easy to see from how the game begins that the designers are incompetent.
Originally posted by Quirhid

No amount of day-night cycle, flora & fauna or manual travel can repair my immersion when I see a bunch of character spawn camping mobs farming XP and gold.

Old school MMOs were not immersive for me. The gameplay, the production value, the pacing... they repulsed me more than anything.

A good example how immersion is entirely subjective.


Sucks to be you. I've been getting immersed in RPGs since the '80s.

Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Sovrath

no it wasn't. Just because you didn't like how many mobs the "quests" gave you to kill doesn't mean it was a grinder.

A korean grinder has you going out into fields or dungeons and that's what you do. You kill mobs. No quests, if there are quests you got little or no xp from them and that's what you did.

grind mobs. Over and over again.

Archlord is a korean grinder, Lineage 1 and 2 are korean grinders, I think maplestory is a korean grinder.

Exactly. NCSoft has always  - even back in 2006 when they were first showing off gameplay and features - stated that it was definitely not a grinder and would have leveling more palatable for the NA/EU audience.

> grind mobs. Over and over again.

It's such an interesting thing on this message board, the rhetoric that goes around and around about "grinding".

I mean, it's an unusual game (these days) that has no way to advance that is not related to clearing mobs; those are the original "grinders", and nearly all of the MUDs, and pretty much every MP game prior to 1995 or so.

But "Korean Grinder" really was a pretty specific set of titles, too.

Tread carefully where your terminology tiptoes, on this here site.

I had never heard the term "grinder" till high-speed Internet became widespread years ago. I always assumed it was used by people who lived in little white metal homes propped up on cinder blocks.
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by pkpkpk
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by TheJoda
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Abuz0r

Aion, this is a Korean grinder, which means they make you WORK for everything you get. However the sense of achievement is amazing. There is an amazing in depth crafting system, fortress sieging, instances, world pvp, you name it. Aion is the only game where I find myself stuck at the PC for more than 8 hours a day if I want to finish my personal laundry list of daily things to do. If you hate WoW and WoW clones, this game is free to play with an item mall that isn't critical, as everything on the item mall can be sold in game.

Aion is not a korean grinder.


i When aion first came out it was a grinder......changed bout a year into the game with patches.

no it wasn't. Just because you didn't like how many mobs the "quests" gave you to kill doesn't mean it was a grinder.

A korean grinder has you going out into fields or dungeons and that's what you do. You kill mobs. No quests, if there are quests you got little or no xp from them and that's what you did.

grind mobs. Over and over again.

Archlord is a korean grinder, Lineage 1 and 2 are korean grinders, I think maplestory is a korean grinder.


In case you didn't know, "grinder" is a derogatory word. It's not a technical term or term of the trade.

in which case anything could be considered a korean grinder?

If one is going to use a term then one has to be consistent no?

The games I mentioned you basically grabbed a group or went solo to a spot and killed mobs over and over and over until you out-levelled the area. Or until you got what mats you wanted.

You then went to another area or set of areas and rinsed and repeated. And several korean games, with their longer levelling embodied these mechanics. That's why we call them "korean grinders".

In a game like Aion or WoW you go to a quest hub, grab quests, kill x of y or collect x of y, come back, get a chunk of xp and then go and grab more quests and repeat.

"grinder" may  be a derogatory word but adding "korean" or "Quest" before it helps define what type of grinder it is.

There is a reason we have the word "etymology".


In any case, I agree with the OP that Aion is a good game. It has its issues but its one of the few games I play.

WoW is a good game because of what it does and how well it does it but I never liked it. Never played LoL, doesn't interest me.


Shrug.... as long as you call games grinders, you will continue to insult them.

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