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All Posts by kjempff

All Posts by kjempff

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Originally posted by VikingGamer

"The industry has lost its way, we are going to do things differently."

Gee, how often does this get said in different and various ways...

Vangard, AoC, Warhammer, Darkfall, TSW, Tera, GW2, Wildstar, EQNext, and every crowd-funded game out there.

I am not saying they should just make more of the same old stuff but they are not exactly the first to set out to turn the genre on its head.

Haha yup the speech is the same, and this one is even more vague than ever before. Alot of talk about not being like this and that game, but hardly anything about how. Camelot Unchained for example are much more specific in their promises. So were Vanguard, and I think the lesson is that good intentions and promises is a start, but you never know anything for real, till the first hands on experience in a progressed state such as late alpha or beta.

Did they really understand what kind of game YOU are looking for? UO and EQ are (were) both vastly different from (todays) WoW, but UO and EQ were appealing to very different player types.

Oh and yeah look at the site name play2crush and add their background, isn't hat a strong indicator to the direction.. conflict driven with a strong pvp base, hardly new and different ;)

Originally posted by Lord-Kronk

I've been playing since alpha, and this to me should be the number one priority in the game. Better tools. As it is now, if you're a new player, you're going to need to watch hours and hours of videos to create anything really nice that we that have been playing since alpha can create. For a building game the tools are pitiful, and off putting for new players.

 

I don't really agree. There is a learning curve, but that comes with most games.  I've been playing from day 1 alpha also. I had to learn all the tricks myself, didn't even watch any videos and had most of it down pretty early on.

Not that I'm bragging, it's just that the tools are kind of easy to use and you can freely play around with them to figure things out. Anyone with half a brain can make some really nice lookthing things without feeling the need to go watch hours of youtube "How Too" videos.

On top of which, the game has gotten a lot smoother, and the tools more refined. We had to do some crazy tricks back in alpha to get things done that new players never have to experience.

You still have to do crazy tricks to build anything that is not free floating squares. Sure it was worse in alpha, but you still have to know really hardcore tricks and understand voxel behaviour logic to make something nice. No newbie would be able to build a round tower or an arched doorway without knowing the tricks and then spend hours and hours on it. Well ok I don't really mind that there is challenge involved, it is just that the challenge right now is manipulating voxel abnormalities and doing this with a pretty basic toolset that makes it really tedious work.

 

On top of that, you do not create what you want, but what the voxel mechanic allow you to. Detailed stuff can only look a certain way due to voxel size and the way voxel surfaces snap to neighboring voxels. No doubt there are amazing creations out there and sure it looks good, but there is a clear voxel styled appearance to all of them - You can see that the creators had to compromize on many things, and it is obvious they are no longer trying to build their vision in voxels but rather exploring what the voxels will allow them to create.

So as I said, smaller voxels would definately be the most obvious solution - If your lion statue infront of your castle door is not unworkable 8x6 voxels but instead 80x60, now that would allow for making it look like a lion and not some voxel monster.

And if you could then place that lion on the ground without the ground voxels reaching up and morphing with the marble lion voxels, that would be a huge improvement aswell.. How to do it technically I am not sure, maybe some 4th dimension behaviour voxels. Or if the voxel size became so small that the morphing would be unnoticable, that could work aswell.

Yes it's all very cool stuff, but before I see some improvements to the build tools and voxel behaviour in general, I am really not interested in returning. We need better building freedom, to escape the voxel styled look everything has - what you can do with the current voxel system is too limiting. Building stuff should be the core of Landmark if you ask me, and so far it's not good enough.. I will keep watching for that core improvement.

 

Tools to fix voxel abnormalities without the tedious task of fixing single voxels with voxel magic and voxel boards.

Multiply voxels (aka smaller voxels) so it is possible to build detailed.

And/Or some kindof solution to voxel snapping, so it is possible to put voxels next to eachother without it morphing.

Or something else that I haven't thought of..

 
 
Originally posted by DMKano

OP - breaking up the playerbase goes against the basic MMO principle.

All MMO devs strive to have the cohesiveness as much as possible - segregating players with infinite rulesets is not only unscalable from a server hosting perspective but it also kills the community.

Exactly. The basics of a mmorpg (massively multiplayer) is getting a massive amount of players together. For every ruleset you split up the player base into two, and even a handful of rulesets will make a game with half a million players have trouble keeping population up on each server, that is a high enough population that it will be a massive world for players.

If you continue that thought for fun, that would mean a game world for every player, costing a fortune to make because of all the different rulesets to handle :)

Both are worth their pricetag, but very different games, so I guess it is also a matter of taste in style. One thing to consider if you are one of those who run all content as a group, gw2 might become boring atleast for the quest grind part because it is made for one player, although events are great for two players.. But that may depend on how serious you take it, it can certainly be ok if you are the casual, lets enjoy the view players. Anyways eso might be more fun in the coop department.

- More defined roles with coop where players are dependent on eachother, such as heals, buffs, debuffs, combos, tanking, crowd control. If grouping or working as a group would be more than every player for themselves, the game would be more interesting for me.

- Complete remake of combat. No locking abilities to weapon types, there need to be some better system with more freedom to choose abilities. Some abilities are ok as it is, but much has to change aswell, to allow for above introduction of roles.

- Less frequent dynamic events.. Build on that system, and take it further than just a slightly different exclamation mark quest system.

- Away with loot vender systems, randomize drops so it feel like you are actually player your character, not playing a point system. It has to be by adventuring that gear is gotten.

- Take advantage of that beautiful well designed world full of caves and hidden areas. Named mobs with random spawn, rare materials, etc.. Make it interesting to explore those places.

- The usual, less storytelling by the developer more systems and gameplay allowing players to create their own.

 

Gw2 is not that far off, they just need to make it interesting to play... Just.

 

When I hear [insert mechanic] it is not possible, my mind always goes "anything is possible, you just have to think outside the boxes". So anyways, why wouldn't it be totally viable to have a sick-em skill bound to a mouse over ? Pet goes attacking the target until told otherwise or it's other ai tells it to do something else.. I don't see a problem with this, and even if there is, there are always solutions to any problem.
Personal loot is just another step away from Immersion, and since that is the direction of mmog, I guess its the natural thing. Another tech solution to make games more digestable and solo friendly. It is great times indeed.
Why do these posts keep popping up? EqNext will be NOTHING like eq, based on what we know. All you do is build up illusions for yourself and move focus away from discussion about what the game will actually be. Yes I would like to see a game that takes up some eq virtues, but that game will not be EqNext.
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by delete5230
Lots of good stuff here.

 

However it seems many not all, feel anti social behavior with newer players is at fault.  This is totally untrue !

Game design is at fault - Developers are under complete control of how an mmo can be played. This is not to say that developers can't give back freedom, BUT THEY CHOSE TO TAKE IT AWAY !



I have to ask, can you NOT chat/be sociable in today's MMOs due to mechanics/game design?

 

Some situations and mechanics make it more difficult, but there are still ways in which to socialize, if the other players are willing.

Once MMOs lack a chatbox, then I will agree with your "game design is at fault" stance.

However, if you are one of the players that can not be social unless you are forced to (like forced grouping), then you may believe this to be true. Is this the case?

But socializing is much more than being able to chat. It is also about playing the game with others, beeing influenced by others, trading, pvp, coop, even watching another player or tossing a buff to someone running by.. All interaction with other players. And that is made possible or limited by game fesign.

The downwards spiral chronologically (well sort of)...

Themepark was introduced by WoW and its competitors at that time.. 2005 ish. A themepark is collection of various themed rides (forest theme with elves, instance with orcs, farmland quests, and so on). Each ride is a predetermined and carefully planned adventure created by the developer. The players can then travel around and enjoy those attractions they like. Themepark is not build as a world, but as a container for the themes and lately developers don't even bother to try and make the illusion of a world, turn around and your winter theme as three steps east of from the hawaii theme.

Next, the storyfication came. Now to make the rides more interesting stories were put onto the rides, and those became "better" and better to the point where almost all of the players own stories (imagination) were not needed. Press play, do the chores and get the developers stories spoonfed to you.

Next, linearity. To maximize the player experience, the developers needed to nudge the players to go where the best content is. More and more walls were put in, and more and more quests that leads to other quests, pathways with no option to leave between quest hubs (aka themepark rides). Less posibilities to make mistake, for the new player can take very little failure (challenge) before giving up and moving to another game. And so the games became on rails, and the track shifters were welded to one position. With linearity, stories became more and more important aswell.

Next, simplification. To cater to the broadest possible target audience, anything complicated has been slowly but surely weeded out. Less abilities that is easier to use, less options for different playstyles, less roles and role dependencies, less chances of messing up, less confusion, less tactics, less coop as to avoid players ability to influence other players experience.. Continue the list. At no point must a player doubt his ability to win, or be frustrated or confused in any way.

All of these things have been continously refined into what is todays mmo, themepark extreme filled with premade stories driven by linearity. Yay. But, ok I also like a good story where I can just enjoy whatever the storyteller wants to give... I like it in certain settings, movies, single player rpg, and games where story can give the gameplay reason..fps, strategy etc. But in my book, a mmorpg is supposed to be something different, a mmorpg is supposed to give me the tools and environment to find my own stories.. It does not mean quest less or without stories to hold the world together and beleivable, it just means freedom to play, to make decisions as the chosen character, to take a role.

Socializing and community is not quite the same thing. Many single player games has a community of dedicated players, as an example Dragon Age or Oblivion/Skyrim. Socializing does help building communities but it is not mandatory.

Anyways, about socializing.. Different players want different things, some like to socialize more than others. I do not buy that people who want to socialize will just do that even in asocial games. The game defines the environment and how the form socializing can take. Players will seek the games that fit their preferences, and so people who like to socialize much, WILL weigh that high. Games that offers or require socializing will attract these players more, provided they offer a relative same quality in other areas.

Steams networking code is fubar, and is known for causing problems with other networking activities. I would try exiting steam and see if the problem persist. Other than that, antivirus is the cause of most pc problems.
Originally posted by Aeander

Title should be pretty self-explanatory, but this thread is essentially a thread of ideas. Which MMOs - in their marketing phase - had the most appeal to you? 

Vanguard - So many promises of all the right things, all the stuff that eq2 didn't deliver on. The "real eq2" was a popular phrase to use.

Aion - So hyped, or atleast I was.

Teso - Looked real good on paper and dev talks up to the actual product.

Originally posted by Aeander

Which ones brought some cool concepts to the table?

Vanguard - Combat, moving while casting, defensive and offensive targets, blood magic, battler clerics.

Eq2 - Coop combos/finishers, a cool concept although the way eq2 did it was not quite there. Pro-active healing and wards was nice too. Best crafting in any mmorpg.. that is the first year before they messed it up, where it was challenging to create things of high quality, where you needed other players to craft subcomponents, and rares were actually rare, and crafting was a viable play style instead of adventuring.

GW2 - Ten years with no new cool concepts, then GW2 makes dynamic events. A fantastic concept, unfortunately they failed to make it interesting. So much potential in the concept of dynamic events, and I would like to see other games pick it up.to make it interesting. So much potential in the concept of dynamic events, and I would like to see other games pick it up.

Originally posted by Aeander

 Which ones would you still use as a good example if you were to design an MMO yourself? Which MMOs, with more talented developers, would push the genre in ways that you'd like to see.

The living breathing world feel from Everquest. That is only all the good things, the faction system, the open world with open dungeons, truly versatile gameplay options, deep lore incorporated into every bit of the world and game, the hidden opportunities and mysteries of unknown drops, keys and access quests to enter zones/areas/doors, coop mechanics with actual roles but making it much less forced and possibility to chose several roles depending on need.

Then I would take eq2's crafting system, or crafting should be meaningful and needed, be challenging. To that I would add coop mechanics, having to rely on others creating components you can't, working together as a crafting group to craft somehing difficult (for example a formula that needs to be done within a time limit and everyone needs to deliver their part).

As an open world I would make it seamless and truly open (no more boxing people in with mountain barriers to keep them on rails). Into that I would put GW2's dynamic events model, but a much improved version that supports the living breathing world aspect better. Events should be something exciting and rare(ish) and have a real effect on the world for a substantial amount of time, perhaps more like EqNext say they will do it.

With all that .... BEGONE STORY DRIVEN THEMEPARK, the game shall put the tools into the players hands and make the players create their stories. And I mean that not only in the sandbox way of thinking, but also that players should actually be able to create adventure for other players, crafters who needs protection to get to places, adventurers needing crafters services, guilds/organizations putting up public requests (quests) for other players, and even player made adventures og some sort maybe like Neverwinters Foundry.

Return of RNGesus, BEGONE LOOT VENDER SYSTEMS. Loot shall be much randomized from drop chances to randomized stats (Diablo 2 style), to hidden opportunities (quest drops). Every players should sit with the feeling that today might be the day I find a really awesome piece of loot. MinMaxers should be given their fix and hunt for those last 1-2 extra percent. Players should be able to look upon another serious player and think, nice gear.. One day I shall have that as well.

I am not fond of trinity in its simple form, but I want roles - Players should support each other and be nudged to play together.. bonuses to working together, still with the option to play solo to some degree. So a skill based system would be a good choice here, and instead of choosing your "class", you choose your role .. or actually, you work on your skills for a certain role, but you can work on several roles at the same time and switch between them dynamically. There shall still be healers, buffers, debuffers, tanks, crowd controlling, pulling, melee, mages, pets and so on, but people can choose which of these roles to pick up depending on the situation (aka who you coop with).

With this kind of skill based mechanic comes a very important thing. There should "never" be endgame, character progression should continue on all levels the game offers, gear and "levels" (in this case skill levels). Like Eq has it's AA system, progression should be virtually endless, and never be only about gear.. skills shall not have a cap, but instead diminishing returns as needed.

Fast travel, yes that is a must (sorry old schoolers, running for 3 hours to get to a group is ruining immersion just as much as gating). There should be some kind of limit, GW2's mechanic for example is horrible, WoW griffon and boat riding is better but not optimal. Also some kind of unlocking system, so you can earn by questing or faction work new gate points.

Combat - I don't have too much preference, but it has to have coop elements with roles, be tactical and therefore reasonably paced (3 bears, not too fast, not too slow, but just right). Like Eq you will not be able to fight nonstop, pauses will be needed to allow GASP actual player communication, although not the ridiculous 2-3 minutes medding-time with nothing to do. Point target, tab target, doesn't really matter to me, as long as it works smoothly.

Hirelings - Yes please, not combat active. But say like sending your hireling to pick up another player, sell goods for you, send orders to your businesses. Yes businesses, players should be able to have various businesses, run shops, taverns, warehouses, crafting stations with special stuff for rent, and much more.

And I could go on, but it's your lucky day .. it's all over now.

 

Investigation missions.. well to broaden the idea, I would call it hidden opportunities. That is opportunities that needs to be discovered or unlocked by the players.

Example: A player finds a hidden sword in a stone well hidden deep in a dungeon, it is missing a hilt, but there is no indication that it can be interacted with.. to some it is just world props, to the curious it has meaning. Another player finds a golden hilt of unknown origin by a random drop of a gnoll.. to some just junk or vender fodder, to the curious it might hold value. The two combined makes a hidden opportunity [insert whatever combining the sword with its hilt will do].

Example: A players finds part of a message in blood in a prison cell, another part in a book in the library, and only by being on good terms with the local [insert whatever] will the npc tell you the last clue, which the curious player can combine to a message "By the old oak, ten paces north, my true love lies".

And so on. The important thing is that it brings the player in control of their adventures. It brings chance and excitement and players feel special for finding out things for themselves. The environment will feel like a world full of magic and opportunities, and combined with lore, create a meaningful game experience. 

The player has freedom and controls their stories, instead of getting content stuffed down their throat themepark style as stories and questing on rails. You could argue it is just hidden stories, but just that fact that it takes efford to find it or unlock it, combined with the fact that such stories are much more subtle by nature - It makes all the difference between pointless grind and a meaningful player experience. 

Everquest for example was stuffed full of these kind of things. If you want a living breathing world, these "hidden opportunities" are in my opinion a cornerstone in a rpg world - formerly known as a mmorpg. So EqNext show us your true nature, what are you ? Story driven Themepark or Freedom driven Sandboxish.

 

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So how can games achieve this without wasting all their resources on things only 50% of the players might discover ? Well, when the whole game is not story driven with cutscenes, voice dialogue, specially designed areas etc, it opens up alot of resources. It is about creating gameplay instead of stories really, and the hidden adventure possibilities (I am avoiding the word stories) are much simpler mechanics to make and a integrated part of the world.

Animating the hilt-goes-onto-sword with sound effects etc, are not necessary, use the players imagination instead and gain endless untold stories for free, just put the tools into the players head and stuff will happen on its own.

 

 

 

I got a secret hope that gw2 could turn into a real mmorpg. When I wander around in Gw2 doing my solo thing, I keep thinking to myself, if only this world hosted a better game, a real mmorpg, there would be no contenders.

They got the tech and the team, they got a good base game to build on and they got player numbers. All it takes now is balls to change direction, make the changes that is needed to make the experience interesting and exciting, giving players a reason to enjoy the beautiful world.. taking a step away from the dreaded themepark formula and trying to make the game a world for players. Gw2 is not that far away, they got all the building blocks, all they need is a change in philosophy and use it slightly different.. changing mindset however is the hardest epic battle of them all.

If iOS weren't by Apple and two-three times the price, It would be my choice because it is simple and stuff just works - the advantage of full control of everything and a limited set of hardware. Apple are just dicks, and macs are overpriced and macOS were outdated in 1995..iOS unfortunately saved them from extinction. The problem with Apple in a nutshell is they try to be different, just to be different, not to be better.. Which has lead to a few good things and a shitload of crap, technically.

If Windows phone had any kind of marked share that would ensure most developers making apps for it, that would be my choice. Having made applications and apps for many different system, I have found a new appreciation for Microsoft.. Yes they were also kind of dicks but that is history and atleast not as bad as Apple and also they are not in the data collecting business like Google is.

So I am going with Android based on principle and price, although Android is horribly managed and error prone. Writing apps for android is a nightmare of trying to fit 100k devices with 100k different OS versions and funny firmware. Google are inventors and always on the edge, and that is a problem when it comes to delivering a good product to the end user.. It is getting better with Android 5, but it will take years before the majority of phones get there. If you are on the lookout for an android phone I can recommend the OnePlus One, just got one myself.

Originally posted by agentsi1511
Originally posted by Forgrimm
I don't know, I'm not really crazy about a game that's being developed in 2014 using basically the same attack animations and spell particle effects that EQ used back in 1999. I can just play EQ if I wanted that. I'm not bashing it or anything, it's just that nothing really stands out. The best part was the background music to be honest.

 

I agree 100%. It looks exactly like EQ1, which graphics that aren't as good as EQ2. I'm not sure why anyone would support this to be honest. EQ combat for its time was great, because there was nothing else to compare it to. Whats with the combat? I mean... you stand still waiting for things more than you do anything else. No one wants a game where most of your damage comes from auto-attacks. And the UI, its 2015 almost.. come on that is just plain ugly.

Well, when making a game, you don't start with the full blown graphics bonanza, because that is the recipe for failure. You make a playable concept with squares, test out how it works, adjust, test, adjust, test, and inbetween that models, effects, animations, world etc are put on in small steps. With that in mind they are pretty far, also considering how little funding they had. If they can attract funding it can happen, but with only a bunch of dedicated supporters, I doubt it will ever reach maturity.

You cannot just go and play eq, because that game with its original vision, does not exist anymore. However, I agree it is a little too close to being a eq remake and that wont work.. They need to capture the spirit of old eq, and modernize it in a better way than SoE has done with eq or eq2. 

I do not agree that no one wants "auto-attack" combat, because players who would play this kind of game are not interested in action combat, but more the cooperation and tactical part of combat. Besides auto-attack is a much simplified word invented to make it sound boring.. If you say stuff like eq=turn auto-attack on and go afk, you have no idea how to play eq.. It require constant attention and tactical timing to maximize output.

I have no expansion favorites, but I couldnt help to chip in with some experiences from launch day+ 3 months....

Cleansing the server curse by beating T'haen. It was a 20 hour long raid (because it was bugged), and only a handful lived through the final fight.

Or being the first on server to get the equvalent to epic weapon (prismatic or something?), although the honor lasted only 10 minutes hah - few weeks after launch.

Or seeing the first dragon in eq2, flying over the newbie island (raid) while clearing, and finally killing the first dragon.

Hail Rebirth, if any of you lurk out there.

/Dazedda Everlost (Coercer)

Some notes..

It should be mentioned, half the features describe eq in the past. You can not find most of these things in eq live, although there are alternatives (which this site does not allow naming), and in the past official progression servers.

Also those features does not represent "all that was good", they are just how the game worked.. To understand why eq is (was) the greatest game in history (opinion), you need to dig deeper - Eq is still despite its many flaws, by far the best mmorpg I have played, and it a serious mystery why no other game has picked up all the good ideas, improved them and fixed the flaws.

 

Anyways, I dont think AA xp was mentioned, which I think is a genious feature that all other mmorpgs completely missed. Being able to keep progressing your character at max level through xp and not just gear, adds a whole new dimension to the game, and is a serious reason people keep playing eq for years.

I dont think anyone actually did bards like eq.. i know eq2 has bards but if you tried both I am sure you will agree eq2 bards are not anything like eq bards.

Unsure about this, but did any other game do a true faction system? Where the character faction status goes up and down with actions, and this has an effect on accessibility of cities, quests, traders, prices etc.

Hmm and in connection with faction, how about Illusion magic? Walking through dangerous territory disguised as a frindly race, where you otherwise would be KOS due to race and/or faction. And that some npc see through illusion, the same as some see through sneak or invisibility.

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