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All Posts by kjempff

All Posts by kjempff

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Originally posted by Aradune
Originally posted by SuperNick

Making an MMO on a budget of $500k and a developer team of 5-10 is a bit like attempting to make a car in real life.

It may move but it certainly isn't going to do well.

Pardon the crude analogy but I just don't think there is a space for indie developers in the MMO genre anymore. While money and resources don't mean everything, the minimum required to even get off the ground as a new MMO is now VERY high.

Sure, Eve hit it lucky by entering into an untapped space and RuneScape enjoyed dominance because everyone with a $200 computer could run it but those times are gone.

There's 10,000 rehashes of RuneScape out there (mostly browser based and horrid cash grabs) and what untapped niché is really left?

I see projects like this, Camelot Unchained, Shroud of the Avatar and a slew of others and just think "this is what you hope to compete with?"

EQ 1 was made with a small team (around 20) for $8M.  Now, I realize salaries have gone up and such, but I don't think it will take much more to make Pantheon if we are smart and lean and mean.  Probably $10-$12M.  

Without knowing much about developing a full mmorpg, my gut feeling tells me that you can go a long way if you spend resources in the right places. Clever game mechanics and core gameplay should be able to carry a game like Pantheon, and if those things work well then the game may not need 50m worth of the latest gfx effects, as long as it looks well enough.. Not to mention atmosphere and ambient sound can really make imagination take you a long way.

Not following the themepark recipe with the need to create stories and cutscenes for everything, I am guessing could be a huge advantage and resource saving. Instead focusing on good long term game mechanics and enough content to allow players to use it.

Atleast it seem like 100-200m budgets doesn't ensure success, eso, wildstar etc. The right game for the target audience - If there is players for Pantheon is hard to judge for an old eq fart.. But damnit, quality must be able to attract new players.. Hoppers will land for awhile and if intrigued they will come back.

The mmorpg genre could really use a good pve game with oldschool virtues and modern mechanics. Good luck on the Pantheon project.

I hope future threads here will be about the game, and not derailed by unsupported claims and half truths about Brad. When you work with people there will be disputes, mistakes, disagreements, and some will leave feeling they didn't get what they should..but remember there are always two sides to a story, and often there is not even right and wrong, things just happen and especially on a creative game dev team.

Originally posted by Dakeru
Originally posted by blueturtle13
Originally posted by Kyleran
You can't make a MMORPG for 600k....so don't get your hopes up.

    Bioware and Lucas Arts proved you can't make one for $300-$500 million (allegedly) so that does not really matter.

    One of the reasons I posted this was in the hopes of people seeing it and perhaps supporting a game like this. I just discovered it through Reddit of all places. lol Just trying to bring attention to a game that needs those who 'say' they want a game like this to step up and support it. I just did. ;)

We know this project and we know all the shit that has happened.

Brad stealing money from the funding - declaring it a 3 months payment for himself in advance. At the same time he refused to pay his devs so they all left together.

He found new people naive enough to work for free and now he hooked up with this woman who is trying to make a MMO based on religion. The first thing she did was censoring anything she deemed as too dark as it would conflict with her views.

 

We know this project well enough to know that it doesn't deserve support.

Repeating it every Pantheon post does not make it more true.

I think it would be better doing weekly one time events in current content, and then do actual content updates in bigger patches.
I think they made it pretty clear already, PvP will be situational and consentual, and PvE will drive most of storybricks emergeng ai. It will be the actions of players that drives the ai, and it that can be directly through PvP in some cases and indirectly through for example supporting PvE actions.
Originally posted by WillowFuxxy

Sandbox is not the only way to be creative but there are two basic paths.

1. Narration approach (aka story)

2. Player empowerment (player creates and explores etc)

There it is, the true definition of 1. themepark and 2. sandbox.

Too many are using the wrong definitions of these. It is not about pvp or pve, it is not about crafting and minecrafting, not about player driven economy.. These are just game features, and sure some are easier to work into either sandbox or themepark, but it is not the definition.

 

Themepark is narrative story like film or book where you follow the plot, experience the content as the content designers intended. Because it is a game, you are giving various illusions of choice, maybe several paths to take, but these are just strings of narrative within the bigger narrative.

 

Sandbox is Player empowerment and there are multiple ways to do that. Outside the standard open world, pvp and permanent changes to the world, there are so many options that are just not used. Defining your character yourself with various degree of roleplay, a world of choice to go where you wanted without getting walled too much by game, with consequence but freedom to act and define your character and your adventure with your play style. The key here is letting the player create the adventure, and this is what sandbox games should be about.. Freedom and player empowerment.

 

It does not sound like there is much eq and eqnext share, excepta few things.

Both are not themepark but more virtual worlds. Eqnext will hopefully take the concept of living breathing world to the next level with a true/truer dynamic mechanic.

Class or rather roles support eacother, and hopefully eqnext multitude of roles will allow for as many interesting fighting tactics as eq had.  We really need better combat systems than the current generic action spam.. Vanguard was on the right track and I got a little feeling eqnext will take that direction. But untill we actually tried combat, it could be just hot air from soe.

Eqnext does sound to have more in common with gw2, but they replace the flawed stuff, that might not be so bad. And so all is just speculation, hands on will tell what was true and what was marketing blahblah.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=b5GoHO1KHJcOriginally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Jabas
Originally posted by delete5230

 

... 

BUT :

For the true mmo player we ALL want the same thing.......A real mmo, but never get it !

I got it atm, seems im not a real mmo player...

Same here - I've been playing real MMOs for 16 years.

Funny - how you have a game that delivers in 90% of all aspects but folks like to focus on 10% and say - well it sucks because its not 100% perfect.

Good luck finding a game that is 100% perfect and taliored to your specific needs.

I think for the seekers of that mmorpg that does not come, the numbers are reversed.. the best mmorpgs are only 10% perfect. That sums up the problem very well. 90/10 players are content and the 10/90 are still looking, and however many posts here it is clear that either you get it or you don't.. If you try to explain what it is, you get two kind of replies, those who get it, and those who haven't got a clue.

 

Test if you get it by watching this video

If you get out your calculatorand put 15$ divided by hours played in a month, you get the cheapest entertainment there is.

What would I pay? It depends on the game and how many hours I can put into the game. When I can't put many hours in, my limit is 0 for sub or shop, box price would be 40$ range.. There are just so many ftp games that when you hit the pay-wall on one, there is another one to try.

But at times where I went nutty full time gaming, the limit would be much higher. There was a period I 6boxed eq, but I think that was about my limit, and there are no mmorpg these days I would pay that kindof money for anyways.

Suppose there one day came a Game Master controlled mmorpg with real people pullingthe strings in realtime, I think I would pay alot for that.. Possibly 50$ a month or 1$ per hour.

Originally posted by Hariken

...

http://youtu.be/b5GoHO1KHJc

Watch this video. If you don't get it, then you have no idea what a mmorpg is. I did not play swg but other mmorpgs, but the message is exactly the same.

The last new mmorpg was made over a decade ago. Migrating to other genres.. If you played any new mmo labelled game the last ten years, you are already playing a new genre.

There seem to be misconception that mmorpgs need a narrative, and this approach is one of the reasons we end up with themepark. Sometimes I wonder if it is movie/media people instead of game designers who lead themepark mmorpg projects.

Another factor might be that themepark gives the developer much control of the game experience, development and production planning. There are just too many unknowns involved in only creating a frame and content and letting the player choose. Players are unpredictable when not herded, and a project will "waste" much time creating content/mechanics that will not be used. A development team will need to be very dynamic and allow and embrace that the direction of the game is unknown. Unknowns are a bad seller for management, investors and the media machinery.

Yes it is an exaggerated and generalized view. Anyways no devs come here, and no devs would take "advice" from some random poster, they have been in the business for many years and they know what they want.. And then again, once inawhile a game designer will have the vision and the also the management skill and luck to maneuver all the different interests that arise in a game development team.

One important thing about getting expensive stuff is that someone needs to know about it for it to have great value to you. Said in another way, half of it is showing off. There are exceptions that the extremely rich does not need to show off, but those are so few it doesn't count. For a game it is really hard to have a show off effect, especially the game as software.

To sell expensive games I think it must be combined with a way to show others that it got something they can't get. Hardware is much easier to see in this because. It could be vr systems (holodecks is what I beleive in) in varying quality and experience. So you got a zbx24 holodeck for your room, but Steve got a nanodeck with full body feedback (whatever).. Its the same game but the experience is different, in Steve gets the attention he paid for.

It would be much harder to sell software like that, for example an exclusive expansion to a mmorpg or even a full game, because whoever owned it would mostly have the extra experience for himself, but not be able to actually show it off. Whales who pay 1000$ for a rare item do exist but I don't think that has enough show off value in the long run... Except if a game got so huge that it would be mainstream, like a percentage of the entire population played it, kindda like people watch(ed) tv.

Spare me the replies that you never.. to show off, offcourse you didnt you are a special kind with much higher standards.

It all sound good on paper, or in this case from a very high perspective. If they can actually achieve half of their claims, it would surely deserve the much misused term "next gen". For me it is still a case of I want to see it work before I can beleive it.

I have several concerns, the main one beeing faith that SoE can and will react fast enough to fix those things that will surely go bad in this first generation of such a new concept.

AI gone into stalemate situation, AI becomming repetetive and non evolving, Underestimating how destructive players really are, How selective players are (those dryads will never be favored over elves with b00bs).. And all kind of situations that neither you, me or developers can foresee.

I see only one way to deal with these problems (and very much in the beginning of this new untested AI tech), and that is to have real people constantly and with little efford control and correct AI issues. Also real people to make the game interesting for the players would probably be needed.. AI mechanics are very likely to become a dead experience and players will learn the patterns quickly and it can become slightly pointless (gw2 syndrome).. The "now I didnt expect that to happen" element is important and AI wont do that alone, it needs to be triggered by humans - Yes I beleive real Game Masters are needed.

Also the human nature has a hard time with 100% dynamic, there needs to be some holding points, some "never changing" that you can rely on.

 

About cpu cost of controlling storybricks ai, I don't beleive that isan issue. Sound like they are much more on a top perspective of things, and not down to the specific actions of a single npc, thoseare likely to be scripted and does not need to be run by the Ai system.

About the dynamic voxel world problem, I think clever mechanics can solve that.. Dynamic loading, timestamping and only getting changed voxels, and uhm stuff.

Originally posted by DMKano

There were what not even 300 total backers on KS.

Even if they charged $5 - 300 people wouldn't even cover the cost of hosting the alpha server each month. 

Well its not like they need a server farm to run an alpha with a few thousand concurrent users. A decent vps would do it for 50$ a month. But otherwise I see your point, 300 subs wouldn't pay the rent and food for two persons. And they wouldn'tbe able come come up with so much new content to keep the same 300 interested.

 

About the game.. There are some interesting mechanics and it has a good oleskool wibe, the choice of combat style didn't speak to me, but its so refreshing to see a game not doing the themepark thing -  We so need a pve sandbox, an actual mmoRPG.

That said PG has a long way to go, and I doubt that little KS money they ask for will get the game very far... In that way, I had much more confidence in Pantheon.

I think Blizzard has realized that mmorpgs as mainstrean are dead, and they are waiting to see where the next big trend goes. Why spend millions on a mmorpg, when a simple card game clone can make just as much with a fraction of the efford and investment.

Blizzard has no values or big goals to be the [insert value] in the world, they are just making games to make money. So it was simple, mmorpgs are high risk with low return of investment in todays market.. Titan was a mmorpg and the calculator had spoken.

I think you answered it yourself.

Game engine and how it is utilized sets some limits.

Will the game need to support 6, 12, 24 or hundreds of players in the same place. Should the game work on certain consoles with limited set of resources, or high end pc's, mobile.

How important is it to the devs vs other things.. Optimizing this stuff takes alot of time and sometimes tech choices in the beginning puts a limit to what is possible. These things need to be planned from the start.

I bet character personalization options are often scheduled for the end of the project, and therefore often cut. Game projects never finish on schedule, and often this means wrapping up and cutting off all non vital, to get the game out on time or even at all.

The problem is we don't have a clue how eqnext is going to be like. Its all just words, fancy ideas, promises and we have seen no proof of anything real. On top of that SoE is not exactly the most trustworthy game developer, they have often said things they could not live up to.

So here we are, two years later, and the last time we saw something substantial was when we were presented with the lion king gameplay video.. Isnt that a year ago already? The latest constructed combat video at the fanfaire didnt really show anything usable.. If anything, it hinted at crappy combat, but like with everything else, its too early to say.

With their management of Landmark I am starting to have doubts SoE has seen the light, and if Smedley has alot of influence on the actual game, the boat is sure to steer directly towards the reef.

SoE need to come out of the bushes real soon and show some proof of their eqnext claims.

Looks matters that is true, but...

Looks only start to matter when a game offers gameplay that can satisfy you. Granted, opinion about a game is also influenced by initial looks, but you will not start to really care untill the gameplay clicks with you. What that is and at which point the good stuff is in favor is a matter of taste.

Gameplay is everything, but after that, looks are important. In mmorps I enjoyed much, I have often found myself keeping stuff with slightly lesser stats because it looked better, but once the stat difference got too high I could not refuse reason anymore.

Originally posted by observer
Landmark has no focus.  That's it's big problem.  Sure, it has a roadmap, but the content doesn't make sense as to what it should be.  It's just a jumble of features thrown together.  Landmark is sort of a sandbox/rpg hybrid.  It has building, no levels, combat, damage, stats, and even some RTS progression.  They need to focus on building as their top priority, and they need to stop focusing on their cash shop and combat, as well as their cave system and loot.

Completely agree. The only validity Landmark has is as a sandbox builder game, an that is the core they should focus on. The latest spree of "yay we got combat, Landmark is now a battle arena game" is just pulling the game away from it's core. Caves system is sort of ok, but I see it more as a concept testing of eqnext mechanics.

These things that are pulling the game awayfrom its core are just creating confusion and moving interest away from the game. And all of this is because of "listening to the community" cough cough e few selected voices.

SoE should get back on track and focus on the core of Landmark as a sandbox builder game with ties to eqnext.. Eqnext editor and game combination. And get startet on improving that flawed voxel system so it can actually be used by sane people to build stuff with - Not to mention in a modern mmorpg like eqnext, voxel graphics in the quality it is now is a turnoff for many players, and then eqnexts mechanics however awesome and dynamic wont matter.

 

I used to play console games as a kid, and once I was done with that, I moved to better toys on better hardware with (for me) superior controls (mouse and keyboard). I am too old to judge or care if there is a opposite thing going on now.

Maybe (no not really maybe) there are just different games for various taste, and these games just work better on certain platforms.. For example I have yet to find any real intersting mobile games atleast more than a few days, and when console players mention great console games I either havent heard about them or their are so remote from my taste that I havent considered them even if they are on pc aswell.

As things are at the moment, I dont see this changing, but as history has proven, suddenly things change in a way no one would have expected. Hardly anyone 10 years ago foresaw that we would be in such a mobile reality now (this is typed on a tablet).

But a new turn in gaming controls and open console standards might change things, you never know. I am thinking about mind controlled, gesture controlled, vr linked, holodeck, etc...

Originally posted by Archlyte
Originally posted by kjempff

Yeah wonder what "community first" means.

I find the community around landmark has way too much influence on the game. Community is just a minority of loud but very dedicated fans, 

Who essentially make up the only players that matter except for when metrics are available. They take the time to post in a forum that dares them to do so by its very name and then get referred to like carpetbaggers.

The Small But Vocal description is the opposite of the Large But Silently Lethargic group that don't express anything save for usage.  This isn't so much as response to you kjempff as it is to that forum cliché wherein people who take the time to voice something are essentially referred to as just loud protesters. Are there stupid demands and complaints, yes, but at least they tried.

The large silent group are the ones that will fund the game, not the few premium founders. It is really hard to try to listen to the silent group (obviously), but it is still very important to not loose them. What I am saying is that it is hard to find the right path when there is constant pressure from parts that you feel has to get something for their efford and investment.

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