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All Posts by UnleadedRev

All Posts by UnleadedRev

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Originally posted by mark2123

Ditched WoW, to much of the same thing rinsed and repeated and no longer value for money (in my opinion).

Not enough time to dedicate to Eve - I like how you can progress skills whilst off-line so dont' feel compelled ot log in all the time, but there's little that can be achieved without treating it like a job.

So, any views on an MMO that has lots of content, can be played a bit casually most of the time and given the odd 3-4 hour session as and when required, has a thriving community/numbers i.e. people on the servers, don't mind the style or whether it's a themepark or not, just want to do something different.

Tried SWTOR - too many stories that dont' care much for

Tried GW2 - each zone feels like a chore to get round everything after a while

Tried Wildstar - too many quest-fests with no real meaning to them

Tried Rift and FF Reborn - Too similar to WoW


Does anyone who perhaps feels like I do about WoW etc have something to recommend?


I hear ya bro, I hear sentiments exactly.

I tried Neverwinter, as I was in it from the beginning. Infortunately, I ditched that game after the HUGE auction house exploit, despite claims it did not effect many. I saw otherwise and it tainted my experience. Not sure with so much time passed, if it is still an issue. But, I must admit, I had more fun in Neverwinter than probably any other MMORPG I have played since 1998.

You all make good points even if I do not agree with all of them.

Do I have any ideas on how to resolve the issues I cite?

Yes....and I think most would agree:

1) Let the developers and game designers who have the imagination and skill to make a GREAT mmorpg that shakes up the genre loose! Unchain them from the zoot suits. Allow them to make what their rare skills can without interference.

If you read articles by many MMORPGs creator's they always at some point indicate the flaws introduced by the zoot suits, where they insisted on changing things for the worst.

It takes bravery and trust for a zoot suit to do (1), i.e. put your trust in your developers 100%.

This is one of the reasons I like crowd funding  and why I believe games like Star Citizen will blow us away.

The developer creates without interference, with money not regulated by a big corporate zoot suit, but from people like us.

Unfortunately, despite this model already existing to "some degree"...the outcome we seek, does not seem to have manifested itself yet.

I guess we will see it once some of these heavy hitters like Chris Roberts, Lord British, and some of the others who have the talent release their games, as a result of crowd founding.

With much of the discussion lately on whether MMORPGs are dying or not and especially how MMORPGs are designed, please consider this, as I feel we are all looking over this in our analysis:


1) MMORPGs are designed to make money first, and provide fun second:

That being said, the simple formula is-The longer it takes a player to do something, the more he will have to subscribe and pay money for that subscription, thus making money for the Publisher/Developers. 

Nothing wrong with that, they make games to make money, except now 18 years later, when we see this old and worn out model, we just sigh. all works in the favor of the house..just like Las Vegas...sure you are having fun, but how much money did you spend? And when you walk away, how much money did you make?  More time means the house wins in both Las Vegas and MMORPGs and the free drinks you get in Las Vegas to keep you gambling and spending money is the same as the carrots in MMORPGs that are dangled in front of you on a hardly ever get the whole carrot...just some crumbs.

To this day, most MMORPG's still do this, except most are now FreeToPlay (F2P).....however, instead of making things take longer to make money, they now give you a free game with no subscriptions, a lower cost game with no subscription, or a normal priced game with no how do they make money on top of all this?

Da Store....You must buy extra content, quests, etc...You kind of get tired of seeing messages about you do not have access to that content. Then depending on the MMORPG, there are the potions, cosmetic stuff, stat boosters, etc etc etc etc

Now remember, MMORPGs are not a public service, their goal is to make money...but are these money making models fun?

It would seem they are not....


2) MMORPGs should be designed to provide FUN first, and Money.

Think about it: "If you build a FUN MMORPG, players will buy it, subscribe to it, or spend money within it or in some shape or form.' The old adage of "if you build it they will come"......BUT...."They will ONLY STAY and PAY, if it is FUN".

MMORPG designers have lost the fun factor in their MMORPGs, because its all about money first and fun second...yet for all their smarts they do not realize more money WILL be made if you make the MMORPG FUN FIRST.


3) The World of Warcraft (WoW) factor:

Many players will cite in forums that WoW ruined MMORPGs, in some ways they are right and in some ways wrong.

Yes, Wow really really proved that MMORPGs can be epic in scale and huge money makers, but in a way they did ruin we all went thru the "Oh no not another WoW clone" phase. So yes, the plague of WoW clones and partial WoW clones condemned us to a copy cat MMORPG market of no end.

The reasons WoW is so successful is that regardless of anything else, Blizzard does make quality products. Thus, you know whatever they release will not be a train wreck. However, I propose this to you:

"The main reason WoW is so successful is due to the large amount of players who have invested time, blood, and grief into their characters".


"Being able to pay for a instant leveling of characters, ensures you do not have to play the content over and over again for each toon, and immediately jump into any new expansions."

However, I feel this feature will wear thin quickly, as any veteran WoW player you might have that level 90 "insta toon", but do yo know how to play it? Probably not, and you will still have to invest time to get gear to be allowed into Dungeons and Raids, as Gear Score is built into WoW. Sounds fair, but not all agree.

****By the time we realize we are not having fun, we soon realize how much money we spent on monthly subscriptions, expansions, and micro transactions, as well as time....****


4) The NEXT BIG THING (aka The WoW killer):

As long as MMORPGs are made on the old and worn out WoW model and even the non WoW F2P and P2Play models, we will see a decline in MMORPGs...not dead..but less and less of them as publishers jump on the LoL band wagon.

We saw how Wild Star brought a "seemingly" cool Sci Fi based MMORPG into the mix and tripped on its own feet. 

We saw ESO go subscription, while providing nothing new,and is now going F2P.

Gone is WAR, which was based on one of the largest and most successful TT IPs, all because of stupidity.

We saw Secret World bring a totally original and new concept to us, but ended up boring us eventually.

SWOTOR, Archage, and the rest?


So what is the saving grace MMORPG?

IMHO, sadly I do not see one....i wish i did...maybe there is a group of developers out there no one has ever heard of, that are making something to blow our socks off, and somehow found the money to do it without a major publisher ruining it because of what the zoot suits feel is the money maker.

What do you think? Maybe you all have an answer to what is the MMORPG that will save us from WoW clone and boredom, and money sucking, fun as an after thought MMORPGs?

Originally posted by BillMurphy

I just wanted to pop in and tell you all that I CANNOT wait to show you what we're working on for the new site.

We know we're long overdue for an overhaul, and what we're building will (I think) put us close to the same league as Polygon, Verge, and so forth in terms of design. It's that good what Evan's created.

Just bear with us a little longer and we'll start showing it off. I can't say dates, except "soon". But I will promise this year. :)

I have always liked your format of MMORPG.COM , it is unique and  a pleasure to navigate and read.

Please do not make it look like all those other game sites that all look the same.


With yet another MMO website closing down (Massively), and the remainder all looking the same with the same horrible or boring formats and content...seems only MMORPG still has a great website layout and content.

The remaining ones are all cookie cutter and low on content.

What's the deal, is this a harbinger for PC games or just a bad economy?

Originally posted by Alverant
Making MMOs is expensive. The guys in suits don't want flops so they go with what worked in the past. They don't want to take risks by going out side the sandbox/theme park paradigm. You know I'd be willing to bet that if someone did take a chance on something innovative and/or new 90% of the people here would ridicule them for it.

You are probably right...gamers seem really into the ritual of the habitual.

This is the way it has always worked, and will be the same now with ESO.

The game will be so lean without paying even more money into it than a subscription, as to make it a moot point.

Case in point LOTRO.


Are game designers not creative enough or are they being strangled by the suits who think they know best, but  are detached from PC game player reality?

Game makers do not provide a public service...they make games to make money...nothing wrong with that.

Why else would they make one? 

However, someone needs to come along and create a MMO that is FUN first....then figure out how it will make money.

That would be the WoW killer that finally gets rid of all these same old same old WoW clones.

A good example would be the Warhammer and Warhammer 40K universe.

There are still mega sales and money being made, while providing tons of enjoyment, from Warhammer/40K  novels and table top games, despite horrible decisions by Games Workshop to alienate brick and mortor stores, online retailers, and offer their IP to any game maker regardless of the junk they produce under the Warhammer/40K IP.

Attempts to bring the tabletop experience to the PC and console gaming have failed, mainly due to mis management by publishers and game makers, as no one can deny the Dawn of War II series was not great, despite some obvious flaws.

It always seems despite huge sales, successful warhammer/40K game makers always go bankrupt, i.e. Relic.

Why is that? Is Games Workshop sucking them dry?

Regardless, my hope is that someone breaks this horrible template that all games seem to be stuck in and break new ground.

They can start by not making WoW clones or jumping on band wagons of the same old thing in a different wrapper.

The developers and publishers do not know what is good for us either.....they keep forcing WoW clones down our throats.

Might as well be network television forcing us to watch their crap.

IMHO, they put a lot of work into a great game, just like EVE...unfortunately, I personally find them both b-o-r-i-n-g.....
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Anything other than cosmetics.

That's what the term has always meant until apologists of the F2P model started to redefine it.

100% accurate!

Please tell us why...

Can be existing or being released this year.

For me it is Warhammer 40K Eternal Crusade, as I am a Warhammer fan and it seems, there has not been a release worthy of the Warhammer Universe 40K or Fantasy for a long time.

And those that showed promise had their devs go belly up.

Although, the graphics look gorgeous, and a friend of mine has been pitching this game to me, I have some questions.

1) Is this one of those Anime styled games?

2) Is this one of those Cutesy Tootsie games, i.e. everyone is cute, good looking, and has all these little cute little pets and stuff?

3) Does it have typical Asian themes/Anime themed combat with characters jumping in the air in combat with oversized weapons etc?

4) is it a WoW clone?

5) Is it a grind?

6) Can you solo?

As you all know, I have a love/hate relationship towards WoW.

However, I have played almost every MMORPG released since 1998, and was playing WoW at initial release.

After all these years, I can tell you that the major reason WoW is still the King of the Hill is due to the following.

Because WoW came out way before all of the existing MMOs except EQ1, many many players over the years have developed characters and in some cases several characters all the way from level 1 to level 90. There is a huge time investment. Thus, even though players like myself, who really wish a ground breaking MMO would come out, all the new MMO's always are in some way shape or form a WoW clone to one degree or another.

This causes several things to happen:

1) Long time WoW players experience nothing new or different in a significant way to cause them to give up WoW for the new MMORPG. Although, these WoW players usually do not renew their subscription with WoW while playing the new MMO, most veteran WoW players do not usually renew at more than a month to 3 months anyway, as there is just not enough for a well versed level 90 to do except run the same raids over and over again grinding for gear, same for PvP. Despite that, they see the new MMO as nothing different. Thus, the new MMO is abandoned after a month or 2 as same old same old and no reason to abandon or play your level 90 WoW toons less.

2) The subscription for WoW becomes a plus for Blizzard....for not only is there a time investment, but a money investment for WoW players. For WoW Players are loathe to abandon the WoW investment of time and money for any MMO that does not blow them away. In teh end, the new MMO makes money off initial release, a month or 2 of sub time, and if F2P maybe some cash shop purchase profit, but in the end its not much. Also, the fact that if you decide to play WoW along with another MMO, that WoW sub hangs over your head...and if you do not play WoW enough during the same time you are trying out other MMOs, you kind of...feel guilty? Your money spent and not being used?

3) The power of the WoW clone defeats all new MMO's to some degree. I call this the "Fonzie Factor"...Back in the mid 1970's a sitcom came out that broke the sitcom genre, it was called "Happy Days" and was loosely based on a great movie that had come out previously called 'American Graffiti". Well, there was a character named 'Fonzie" that started out as a cameo character and not a main character, i.e. did not appear in every episode. The combination of his flair andthe fact that he was not in every episode created fans to eagerly anticipate his next appearence. Unfortunately, as with everything on network TV, the producers recognizing Fonzies popularity made him a regular character, then increased the number of time he would appear in each episode, then increased the amount of time he was in each episode, then making entire episodes revolve around him, and eventually, the whole series revolved around him. By then, fans were "Fonzie Saturated" and the series failed. THIS, is what developers and producers of MMOs do every single time they release a new MMO...they clone WoW over and over again, to the point where we are WoW saturated...just like Fonzie. The BEST example of this is "Wild Star" despite even to myself as being new and unique...its still the same old same old WoW formula.

In conclusion, there really is no reason for the large WoW player base to leave WoW 100% for another MMO, or moreover even share WoW time with another MMO. As long as game studios continue to base their MMO designs on WoW to some degree or another, they just dig their own holes. Where is the imagination? Where is the creativity or ingenuity?

I can easily see in some cases where great Devs come up with non WoW clones, only to have some high mucky mucky poo poo their ideas because "WoW is the mose successful MMO, they obviously are doing whats right, therefore we must do the same, and of course do it better, which will make players come to our game and make us king of the hill"....


Please Devs and Prods...stop the madness!


Both games put you into a position where you MUST endure LONG QUE'S to raid (WoW) or do dungeons (WS) to get good gear.

Not that there is an issue doing dungeons or raids, it just the wait times in QUE which are forever in both and worse in WS because its just there normal dungeons.

Also, WS goes to one extreme and WoW the other in questing.

For example, in WoW you must stay in a certain area or DIE...and the Timeless Isle is a boring grind zone

In WS you can find a ton of quests that keep the flow going, but you can get overwhelmed and burnt out because the gear blows.

The only time WoW was fun, was during the questing in Lich King and before bots took over PvP.

In WS, it was fun at the start and then quickly got stale.

Dont these game designers ever learn?

First off, anyone who knows me from these forums, knows I do not particularly like MMOs anymore.

I have a love hate relationship with WoW, I hate cartoony and cutsey tootsie graphics, and I avoided Wild Star up until the final beta, even avoiding reading anything about it.

I also despise subscriptions.

Yet, I played the final beta, open beta, and plan on subbing to Wild Star.

Here is why I love the game that has all the things I hate in it.


2) Not a WoW clone...the character graphics are not like WoW, they are a combo of Orcs Must Die and some characters from the old "Loony Toons" "Bug Bunny" cartoons, and the only thing similar to WoW is some of the landscapes, which blow WoWs away.

3) There is a ton to do...I mean a TON and if you some how run out of things to do, just run off in any direction and you will find something!

4) PvP is so different than WoW, more complex, i.e. moodie masks and the mechanics to their spawning and when you can grab them, also dont expect anyone to speed hack across the landscape or any other type of speed buff when carrying a flag/moodie mask.

5) Zerg? What Zerg? I see the teams that win have one really goodplayer guarding the masks, while the rest of team grabs masks, its called TEAMWORK....organizationand teamwork wins.

6) Anyone who claims to have played this game and says its a WoW clone has never played it. Its fun, challenging, and can appease the casual gamer up thru hard core gamers.

7) Also it has lasting value..unlike Elder Scrolls which does offer a nice relaxing immersive game, with very interesting crafting, it still wears thin quickly. Not so with Wild Star, there is no unfun grind like parts of WoW or shallowness as in ESO.

Wild Stars only flaw is the starting areas...they do not do justice to the game and even almost scared me away from Wild Star. If you can suffer thru the starting areas, which some indeed do like, the game is totally different once you leave them and just keeps getting better and better every level. By level 15 its a totally different game in teh major cities.

Watch all the videos on the wild star site, especially War Plots #2.

Also, housing is the most awesome experience that no one can touch....

Remember..I hate MMOs, subs....but I really like Wild Star.

First off, I love the Elder Scrolls universe, it's games and also ESO...

Obviously, ESO was made using a "cookie cutter" approach, i.e. reuse of objects etc, which you can see in how many interiors look exactly the same, etc, as well as in other areas of the game and its aspects.
All of which is a minor nuance and to a degree understandable.

However, where this becomes an issue is in one of the reused quest models; that being the many quests which require players to STOP what they are required to do in 90% of the game, that being... killing monsters.

Thus, it should be no surprise, that when encountering one of these quests, to see a large amount of players waiting for the monster to spawn and then praying that other players not familiar with the quest, will not come by randomly and kill the spawn before it can run its quest mechanics.

The result is, 90% of the players who do not know about the quest, kill the spawn and break the quest.
Desperate spamming by the questing players pleading for other players to not kill the spawn, to allow it to do its part of the quest mechanic required to advance the quest....usually are not successful.
As unfortunately, many players are not watching chat close enough to notice the pleas, and many turn zone chat off due to the gold spammers and growing infantile discussions, but moreover the other players just do not know about the quest.

The end result is frustrated and angry questers who feel everyone is either dumb,  a jerk or griefer, when they kill such a spawn.
Well, that is true for a very tiny tiny number of players.
99% of them had no way of knowing...
And thus, the poor design of certain aspects of the game, hurts all the good things in this game.

This was all known in BETA, and nothing was done, and it may be a long long time before such things can be fixed.

Should you complain about such things, you are told that all MMORPGs are like this at release.

The question is why?
The answer is that YOU the player allowed it.

You the player have purchased MMOs since the late 1990s that are released in a form no other major release of other types of games would have been deemed acceptable.
But back in the day, the novelty and want to be with thousands of other players was a desire that caused us to over look such horrible short comings.
Thus, the standard for MMOs are now 1) A poor release and 2) Bugs forever.
This has now carried over into all other types of games beyond MMOs as well.

Maybe it is time, to just say no to games that want you to pay a subscription for unfinished products.
Unfinished not in content or bug fixing, but the BASIC, COMMON SENSE, things that are the back bone of every game, i.e. a minimum standard of quality.

Otherwise, as we have seen, quality goes down with every release because developers know that you the player will either accept it, or flame others who do not accept it.

I love ESO, but I will not re-subscribe and fork over more money until I see progress.

Vote with your dollars, if you do, you will see results.
It is just a shame that we have to do this with out beloved Elder Scrolls MMO, and hopefully, by the time our 30 days are up, we can re-subscribe to a high standard of a product worthy of a subscription.



They cannot even get this right:

Originally posted by DewBaah
why do you need to know if it is routine or emergency? 

LOL! I rest my case! You just posted the policy of Zenimax customer service for everything!

"Why do you need to know?"


Based on Zenimax's poor customer service record, they probably banned every account in addition to the cheaters, then could not figure out why NO ONE could log in, so they they decided to perform Maintenance today on a Friday, forgot to post it as emergency maintenance and thus are still scratching their heads trying to figure out the issue ROFLMAO

I predict this wonderful game will lose 90% of its new subscribers from launch day due to Zenimax CS incompetence.

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