---

Originally posted by johnmatthais

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5

Covers what you think of people that buy console games, not MMOs, and further that is not what the topic or my reply is even about.
The topic is on MMOs, specifically WoW, and how you automatically think you like "hardcore" MMOs which is just an opinion of itself. Which is furthered by you thinking the average WoW player would like the "hardcore" MMO you would. So honestly, drop the attitude. All of what you say is opinion based on opinion.

---

*facepalm*
I was trying to stress that non-gamers need to stop encouraging big name companies to create games for non-gamers. WoW is one of those that seems to slowly be catering more and more towards the non-gamers.

---

Exactly, *facepalm*
Just because people only play a certain genre, be it Solitaire, Pogo, or pong, all the way to bowling on the Wii. That makes them no less a gamer or a customer then anyone else that plays any other game. They are what we call Casual gamers. They are still gamers. Once again stop voicing opinions as opinions as facts and thinking all people want to play games you play or think the way you do and expect all games to be centered around one group of people. WoW caters to the Casual hardcore crowd, they have elements for both yet is easy enough for anyone but technical enough for most.

You find stat grinding and death penalties and other things of the sort fun, they find talking to other people, doing an instance with friends and quests fun. Both are gamers, both like different things, and thus play different games. Stop calling casuals "non-gamers"

Originally posted by Nilenya

Originally posted by spyder2k5

 

---

Originally posted by johnmatthais

 

 Damn, I hope it's peaked and all the people that only know MMORPGs by the name of WoW get bored and leave so we can get some quality hardcore MMOs out.

WoW has to die out at some point.

---

 

 

1st point, the kind of people who play WoW, most of them do not want nor will lay "hardcore" MMOs. Totally different type of players. Sadly companies keep trying to hit all demographics and fail, because they cannot figure out how to blend them.

2nd point, WoW will not die for many, many, many more years. Unless of course Cataclysm tanks. I see it continuing at least for another 5+ years. The only thing that will kill WoW, is WoW itself, or another Blizzard MMO.

 

I started playing wow back in the family and friends beta. Before that I had played EQ1 for 4 years, and did so in a high end raiding guild on a pvp server. By any standard EQ1 was hardcore. It was a sandbox game with severe death penalty, and demanded quite a lot of the player compared to, todays addon driven -youneednoawareness- WOW.

I play wow because Its fun too. But mostly, I play it because no other game out atm, apart from outdated old games can live up to my expectations and Ive tried almost all of them. I play EVE on the side, but I go absolutely ballistic at this point when I try a new game and have it be an unfinished, bug riddled, support lacking, Bot/exploit infested piece of S... and then see forums floaded with excuses for it. Im too old for that BS. If it isnt a solid product Im not paying for it. And right now Im severely challenged to find any mmo apart from wow and EVE that delivers on its promises.

PS: Im not putting down Lotro (I kinda lob it in there with wow. Its solid, I just never got the thing with the hobits and the flaming eye)

And WAR, AOC, AION and the likes are travesties that but for the fact that they present virtual entertainment, would have been taken to the cleaners for the crap they are/were. These and others are what makes WOW such a success. Not just what WOW is on its own merit, but how amasing it shines next to the piles of dung other companies fling at us.

I am the same with WoW, but I love WAR because that be all means is what PvP should be like, gear obtainable, leveling possible by PvP and balanced. LoTRO is good if you play with friends, I play it off and on. But it is a taste thing.

Originally posted by brostyn

We are talking about a game with 11.5 million scubscrubers peaking? If they lost 10.5 million subscribers they would still be top dog. How sad is that?

 

(that is not a knock on WoW. Its a knock on all the rest of the joke MMOs that can't even garner a tenth of the WoW subscription numbers)

That is due to several reasons most being that all are just trying to milk money from people, rush the products and care nothing about their players. The other reasons include the fact that content does not get enough updates, and players expect games to come with out with just as much as WoW these days which is not possible, all the way to developers just not giving any content to their players anymore.

Other reason and a good one is there is just not enough willing to pay for the new ones or even move on from what they know.

The only game holding steady beyond WoW, is LoTRO and it gives away a TON of free content updates, but because of the IP and lack of real PvP it hits a smaller demographic.

Originally posted by johnmatthais

Originally posted by spyder2k5

 

---

Originally posted by johnmatthais

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5

1st point, the kind of people who play WoW, most of them do not want nor will lay "hardcore" MMOs. Totally different type of players. Sadly companies keep trying to hit all demographics and fail, because they cannot figure out how to blend them.

---

I totally covered that in the rest of the post that you cut out...

---

 
No you mentioned easy MMOs, what you find easy not everyone will, what you find hardcore, not everyone will. Thus what I am saying is they have yet to learn to implement a difficulty setting and gear the game around that. Give the player the option type things.

 

Really? This:

"Really, God knows how many people bought consoles for the sole purpose of playing Guitar Hero and its likenesses only to get bored a few months later and never touch the console again.

What about the Wii and its craze everytime the new line of "Wii yada yada" comes out? They don't stick to those games..."

Didn't cover what I think of those people?

 

Covers what you think of people that buy console games, not MMOs, and further that is not what the topic or my reply is even about.

The topic is on MMOs, specifically WoW, and how you automatically think you like "hardcore" MMOs which is just an opinion of itself. Which is furthered by you thinking the average WoW player would like the "hardcore" MMO you would. So honestly, drop the attitude. All of what you say is opinion based on opinion.

---

Originally posted by johnmatthais

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5

1st point, the kind of people who play WoW, most of them do not want nor will lay "hardcore" MMOs. Totally different type of players. Sadly companies keep trying to hit all demographics and fail, because they cannot figure out how to blend them.

---

I totally covered that in the rest of the post that you cut out...

---

---

Originally posted by johnmatthais

 

 Damn, I hope it's peaked and all the people that only know MMORPGs by the name of WoW get bored and leave so we can get some quality hardcore MMOs out.

WoW has to die out at some point.

---

1st point, the kind of people who play WoW, most of them do not want nor will lay "hardcore" MMOs. Totally different type of players. Sadly companies keep trying to hit all demographics and fail, because they cannot figure out how to blend them.

2nd point, WoW will not die for many, many, many more years. Unless of course Cataclysm tanks. I see it continuing at least for another 5+ years. The only thing that will kill WoW, is WoW itself, or another Blizzard MMO.

What you don't mention is how they STILL have 11.5 million with all the new games that have hit and otherwise.

Meaning they are not only still the largest, but the most stable. They have not lost, which maybe is not as good as gaining but no loss is better then any loss.

Seeing how the economy went kaput this is huge news that they have maintained.

And honestly how much bigger could they get? I mean there is only so many people in the world who play MMOs and even less that would pay.

Originally posted by Funball

 How many servers are left now?

4, but the game really only needs 2, that way players could have their destro on one and order on another. They should go down to 2 and allow players that have their order and destro split up to pick where they want each and mass merge/move them as such.

---

Originally posted by GamerAeon

yep and suddenly they expect players to flock to GW2 or AION
NCSoft lost its direction a long time ago after making GW

---

---

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5
 
 

---

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5

---

Originally posted by drazzah

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5

---

Originally posted by Varny
 
 Well ATI until Sept when Nvidia launches their next round of cards which will probably be better. Then ATI will release theirs which will be better and it goes back and forth like this until one gets bought by the other.
 
 

---

 
That was how it was YEARS ago. Now it is one or the other. And sad to say even with the newer nVida cards they will still lack the power of the newer ATi ones. My 3870s beat nVidias latest, hell the old 8800 nVidia cards out power their new ones.
 
 

---

 
And spyder, you should do your research because ATI cards have more problems with bottlenecking than nVidia, 
 
 

---

ROFL! Hardware specs say otherwise, the ram and the speed of the GPU run without bottlenecking. Sorry nice try. Learn what bottlenecking is, and how it happens, and most of all please stop sticking your foot in your mouth.
 
 

---

 
 
Spyder c'mon mate, I want some of what your drinking.
Your 3870 beats a GTX 285? lol.
Now that's foot and mouth disease.
 
 

---

 
 
GTX 285:
Core Clock: 648MHz
Stream Processors: 240 Processor Cores
Effective Memory Clock: 2484MHz(effective)
Memory Type: GDDR3
 
My 3870(just one I have 2):
Core Clock: 851MHz
Stream Processors: 320 Stream Processing Units
Effective Memory Clock: 2280MHz
Memory Type: GDDR4
Please for the love of god, stop sucking up to nVidia and using opinions in place of facts, it will only hurt you.
See more at:
GTX 285:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16814130442
My 3870:
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16814121233
 

---

 
 
Are you trying to educate people that SPU's and architecture is the same? FYI what ATI calls a Stream processor is different to Nvidia's. Are you seriously under the impression that  because your 3870 is clocked higher it performs better?
Not to mention you failed to mention memory interface. 512 > 256.
What about the states that count?
3870
Memory Bandwidth: 72 GB/sec
FLOPS: 496 GFLOPS
Pixel Fill Rate: 12400 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 12400 MTexels/sec
Texture Units: 16
Raster Operators 16
Shader Clock: 775 MHz
GTX 285
Memory Bandwidth: 158.976 GB/sec
FLOPS: 1062.72 GFLOPS
Pixel Fill Rate: 20736 MPixels/sec
Texture Fill Rate: 51840 MTexels/sec
Texture Units: 80
Raster Operators 32
Shader Clock: 1476 MHz
Someone please explain to him.
We will see the same this year, a higher memory interface and lower clocks from nvidia out performing at the top end on single GPU.

---

ROFL, I see now you know very little about computer, or the hardware involved. Those specs mean jack s*** on the nVidia, the whole thing bottlenecks itself. The card can only run as fast as its slowest component. You also fail to realize mine as well as the one quoted is the higher end versions of the spectrum, my 3870s are not stock. It would easily beat the 285. Sorry to burst your false knowledge party.
 
Oh and that site? It posts theoretical figures that are just that theoretical, they are not numbers you can do anything else with. They don't mean anything next to real numbers and based facts which I have shown.
 
This topic has gone into retardation with all the supposed people that claim they know stuff they obviously do not. I am tired of fighting idiots all day. Argue with yourself.
 

---

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5

---

Originally posted by drazzah

---

Originally posted by spyder2k5

---

Originally posted by Varny

 

 Well ATI until Sept when Nvidia launches their next round of cards which will probably be better. Then ATI will release theirs which will be better and it goes back and forth like this until one gets bought by the other.

---

 
That was how it was YEARS ago. Now it is one or the other. And sad to say even with the newer nVida cards they will still lack the power of the newer ATi ones. My 3870s beat nVidias latest, hell the old 8800 nVidia cards out power their new ones.

---

 
And spyder, you should do your research because ATI cards have more problems with bottlenecking than nVidia, 

---

ROFL! Hardware specs say otherwise, the ram and the speed of the GPU run without bottlenecking. Sorry nice try. Learn what bottlenecking is, and how it happens, and most of all please stop sticking your foot in your mouth.

---

 

 
Spyder c'mon mate, I want some of what your drinking.
Your 3870 beats a GTX 285? lol.
Now that's foot and mouth disease.

---

 
GTX 285:
Core Clock: 648MHz
Stream Processors: 240 Processor Cores
Effective Memory Clock: 2484MHz(effective)
Memory Type: GDDR3

My 3870(just one I have 2):
Core Clock: 851MHz
Stream Processors: 320 Stream Processing Units
Effective Memory Clock: 2280MHz
Memory Type: GDDR4

Please for the love of god, stop sucking up to nVidia and using opinions in place of facts, it will only hurt you.

See more at:

GTX 285:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16814130442

My 3870:

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16814121233
 

Originally posted by drazzah

Originally posted by spyder2k5

Originally posted by Varny

 Well ATI until Sept when Nvidia launches their next round of cards which will probably be better. Then ATI will release theirs which will be better and it goes back and forth like this until one gets bought by the other.

 

That was how it was YEARS ago. Now it is one or the other. And sad to say even with the newer nVida cards they will still lack the power of the newer ATi ones. My 3870s beat nVidias latest, hell the old 8800 nVidia cards out power their new ones.

 

And spyder, you should do your research because ATI cards have more problems with bottlenecking than nVidia, 

ROFL! Hardware specs say otherwise, the ram and the speed of the GPU run without bottlenecking. Sorry nice try. Learn what bottlenecking is, and how it happens, and most of all please stop sticking your foot in your mouth.

---

Originally posted by drazzah

 nVidia Cards are so much better then ATI. If you are going to run single card and not SLI/Crossfire, nVidia blows ATI out of the water. Price wise, speed wise, and useability wise. Games that have problem with graphic cards, all of the time it has to do with the ATI cards. 

---

ROFL I know tons of games that have issues with nVidia, with ATi, or both. Don't even.

Originally posted by Varny

 Well ATI until Sept when Nvidia launches their next round of cards which will probably be better. Then ATI will release theirs which will be better and it goes back and forth like this until one gets bought by the other.

That was how it was YEARS ago. Now it is one or the other. And sad to say even with the newer nVida cards they will still lack the power of the newer ATi ones. My 3870s beat nVidias latest, hell the old 8800 nVidia cards out power their new ones.

---

Originally posted by r3zs1ckn3ss

I'm building my next system and have the boxes just sitting there. Gonna take me a while to save for the rest. But so far I have the:
Intel Core i7-860 Lynnfield 2.8GHz LGA 1156 95W Quad-Core
Foxconn Inferno Katana GTI LGA 1156 Intel P55
Intel X25-V SSDSA2MP040G2R5 2.5" 40GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid State Drive (OS)
Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB 10000 RPM SATA HDD (Games and Apps)
Now I'm broke. :`(   

But hey. It's a start right?
 

---

Originally posted by r3zs1ckn3ss

Damn. Y'all must be doing some heavy gaming. I just wanna play my MMO's. I think one 5770 and one later crossfired will be just fine for me. Maybe a nice FPS too. Spend about $170 and another later. Otherwise I spend $300-$400 now and then I'll be tempted to spend another $300-$400 later and my wife will kill me. Wives and hardware don't mix.

Chassis: NZXT LEXA BlackLine - ATX Mid Tower
Chassis Cooling Device: 2x Rosewill RFA80L-R 80mm Red LED Case Fan, 3x Rosewill RFA120L-R 120mm Red LED Case Fan
Power Supply: COOLER MASTER Real Power Pro RS-750 - ATX12V 750 Watt
Thermal Compound: Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound
Mainboard : ASUS P5E3 WS PRO- X38 LGA 775 ATX
Memory: 4 GB Patriot Extreme Performance PC3-10666 DDR3-1333- Quad Channel in Crossfire
Memory Cooling Device: EVERCOOL MNC-E
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale - 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775
Processor Cooling Device: ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro 92mm CPU Cooler
Video Card: 2x ASUS EAH3870 TOP(ATi 3870) - 851 Mhz Core clock each, 2280 MHz Memory clock each, 512MB GDDR4 each(1 GB Total) Ran in Crossfire.
Video Card Cooling Device: 2x VANTEC Iceberq 6 VGA Cooler
Network Interface Card: Bigfoot Networks Killer NIC M1 - 10/100/1000Mbps PCI 400 MHz Network Processing Unit (NPU) 64MB RAM
Sound Card: AuzenTech Auzen X-Fi Prelude 7.1 - 7.1 Channels 24-bit 192KHz 64MB X-RAM
Hard Drives: 2x Western Digital Caviar WD5000AAKS - 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s (1 TB Total Space)
Media Devices: LG GSA-H55NK - 20X DVD±R 2MB Cache ATAPI / E-IDE Super Multi DVD Burner
Keyboard: Logitech G15 V2.0
Mouse: Logitech MX518 Gaming Optical Mouse
Monitor: ASUS VK222U - 22" Widescreen, 2ms Response time, 5000:1 Contrast ratio, 1.3MP Built in Webcam/Speakers
Speakers: 5.1 Surround sound
Power Protection: BELKIN BE112234 - 4120 joule Surge Suppressor with Phone/Modem, RJ45 and Coax Protection
Operating System: Windows 7 Ultimate Signature Edition x64

Those are my specs ;)

---

Originally posted by Khaunshar

Fortresses are gone, and if something is "in development", its not in the game, thus not content. Cutting out scenarios, even if they are weekend events, reduced available content. And no, I am not buying Ekrund as the tactical scenario, its a map that works due to not having more than 1-11 skills.
I am not playing right now, but my girlfriend is. On the server she  plays at, the majority of PvP is still handled by spamming multi-target abilities, in turn necessitating group healing, and the game is still centered around 4 classes on both sides. Things were worse, yes. But they are still bad.
The game is one and a half years old. We had no expansion. We had a huge amount of half-assed patches that removed, reintroduced, cut, re-shaped and broke stuff, over and over again. The game has been worse, yes, but it also has been better than it is now. Which is why I dont consider this move anything but another wild goose chase after the lightning-in-a-bottle thats already over the hill.
The name of the game is tarnished, a LOT. The technical problems and performance are still not state of the art (Aion, WoW, Guild Wars etc.) for its graphics, and over HALF the classes are still not at the right point in balance. Yet, Mythic continues to just try out wild stuff, in order to be seen acting, when for a year now, a handful of big, sweeping changes were almost uniformly considered necessary.
They cut out content, sell it as a good idea, to avoid having to actually do a major rework of the rotten core. And that has been going on for too long now.

---

Second guessing the game when you do not play it and have no valid information to back it up is not helping your argument. For instance watching someone play means nothing and shows nothing. There will always be those who use AoE spam, but the majority don't with the AoE nerf and the Action Point re-balancing. All classes are good, and important. Play them as they are labeled or be disappointed.

Th patches have streamlined, improved and fixed. They did not remove anything. Forts will be back it was stated they would, they are still there just not important in taking a city at the moment watch for patch 1.3.5 to revamp cities.

I run the game maxed at about 60-90 FPS no less in RvR. I would say the game runs fine. Stop reaching for excuses to bash the game that are simply not there. Classes are balanced around group combat, and they are well balanced, if you know your class and play its role you can take on almost anyone, yet there is always someone or a group that can tear you down, hence group combat.

All the patches that have been done since mid last year have done nothing but fix all issues players have been complaining about. Over time this fixes the core issues thus invalidating any hate you keep trying to spew out of uninformed biased hatred of opinions.

---

Originally posted by calranthe

It seems to me ATI/AMD is rushing out incomplete/bugged products with drivers focused more on fast benchmarks than game stability

 

---

ATis hardware is not only more powerful, but their drivers are more optimized, and work tons better. You can do much more with them then the crap nVidia spews out and calls drivers. Learn to work the panel and advanced settings. I have been running dual 3870s for over a year now(have a 2900XT in my old system this is a new system built ground up to be a powerhouse.) and it would easily beat any two nVidia cards combined. Why? Because their hardware is not as powerful, and is further reduced into retardation by bottlenecking itself, which then gets passed to their buggy drivers that get worse each build. That is why most people that use them and know what they are doing stick with older nVidia drivers because of the issue the newer ones have constantly. ATi drivers don't do that, they get better and better.

I don't care how long you say, or have been building computers, if you don't know the fundamentals it means nothing, anyone can build a computer it is easy, but to understand the connection between hardware and make sure they are fully compatible and don't bottleneck themselves and each other is totally separate.

---

Originally posted by AmazingAvery
 
right.... so how are you basing generation? because I rememeber ATi being 6 months late with DX10 cards this time around same thing but the other way and even when ATI came out they still didn't beat Nvidia with 8000 series in most things.
 
I get the people that have brought ATI recently, they have to keep the faith, and as the time gets nearer people get antsy because of previous investment worries. I have always maintained that I'd rather see what is on offer from both companies before making an informed decision.

---

Originally posted by AmazingAvery

Simple put, next month IF nvidia release they will hold the performance crown. This has got the ATI guys a bit hot under the collar.

Happy to have waited it out. Not like I have DX11 games to play that I like the look of is it.

Ehhhh wrong! Even if they release they will still be 1 generation behind hardware wise, just because they would support DX 11 does not mean the specs behind the support would be good.