Aaarggh, lost again! FFfff..

Originally posted by johnnychangs

What Hi Rez needs to do is give keys to customers who have actually spent money on their products instead of media.

 What you need to do is to think that they have already sent the keys to those who have paid, and now their are giving the spare keys for giveaways.

For god's sake, I checked before I sleep and exactly when I woke up both at #2 and #3 and everytime they were gone. Try doing it different time!!

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Manasu

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

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The fact that noone from ND has gone to jail is because Mr. Karmanlis closed the parliament. Did you foget that ?

How can someone take such a anti democratic measure like close the parliament and set it out for 4 months just to cover the crimes of his party. Forgot Mr. Rousopoulos and Mr. Voulgarakis on activities with offshore companys at cyprus on  which they transfered the money of the greeks  - your money - ?

Where did ND and Mr. Samaras taking responsibility for that and instead they chuck out the only person who started to talk about ND's own responsibility the former foreing secretary Mrs. Bakoyani.

Both partys did their wrong doings but PASOK is the one who took responsibility for it  and your OP was just to one sided.

If you think it is wrong to have EUR just dispance with it and check out if getting cheap EUR wasn't a good idea of Simitis ;) 

Check out the EU countrys in the region around greece who stayed out of the EU Zone itself and try to live there for some months ;)

 ~Sigh~, why you waste your time... I didn't and do not support ND, I know what they did (even if they didn't CLOSE the parliament, they just passed that law) buy anyway..

 The point of this thread is not to inform people about situation in Greece but to inform what the betrayer (Flambouras) did, and he joined PASOK. Which arguably destroyed Greece (with the help of ND? sure With the help of EU? sure With the help of Left-wing and right-wing parties? sure With the help of the actual greek people? sure, The past 2 decades provoked this situation? sure) I don't think it's really meaningful to point here every situation that brought greece to this destruction. The meaning is to point out what Tasos and his party did.

 And PASOK took responsibility for destroying Greece? Maybe, it was their choice anyway.. Nevermind, and countries outside EU zone - well.. Denmark, Sweden, Norwegia, UK....countries I would love to stay not for just months, but for whole years.. Well anyway, I don't think that here is the place to discuss greek politics. Let's just keep that T.Flambouras joined the party which has a lot of responsibilities for destroying Greece.

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Originally posted by Zekiah
The entire global economic system is imploding, just enjoy gaming while you can lol.
You can't stop this train.

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Well, I'm not really sure whether you can or cannot stop this train, but I'm sure that you cannot support it.

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Originally posted by TruthXHurts
So he is the Greek equivolent of a Republican?

 

 

I think you need to keep your politics out of your gaming, or you will find a link to something you hate with every company.

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I'm not actually sure about the Republicans, but I think that New Democracy is more equivolent. And by the way, New Democracy is the other political party that corporated with PASOK and they destroyed Greece.

Yeah I see your point, but this is not just politics. Flambouras was a guy that I admired and knew (met him once and had a talk with him) and thought he wasn't such an idiot and a betrayer. Thanks to PASOK my father lost his job and the income of my family is almost cut by half - so noway I can support such a bastard ( tl;dr it's personal).

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Any link to these information ?

 

The paerty who destroyed  Greece is Nea Demokratia btw. PASOK couldn't but ask for help from EU after they realized how big the mess is that ND left after 5 years of their vandalism.

After Mr. Karamanlis  (the former leader of ND) realized what he did to greece he deserted from the fronline and left everything for others to fix. What is a shame is that thecurrent leader of ND Mr. Samaras still accept him in his party and not put him in jail.

Fact is the party that lied to whole europe and send the wrong statistics to EUstat for 6 years  has been the party of nea dimokratia (ND). 

 

Mr. Flambouras is a liar nevertheless, but for other reasons ;)  

Official link (I hope you are greek).

Also I can't believe you fucking support PASOK, firstly only to take a look at the  two-party system PASOK and New Democracy have the same fucking responsibilities. And ofc PASOK could make different decisions than being a servant  of Europe, IMF and Memorandum. The politics that PASOK followed that past 2 years are even worse than ND, because ND actually stole peoples' money, they didn't enforce Memorandum or other taxes - what PASOK did, which not only stole money but enforced all that failures. See, Mr.Tzoxatzopoulos is going to jail now for stealing 15 million euros from the greek folks. And he could be the present president of Pasok and of Greece if he had 1 (just one) more vote than Papandreou. 

Also why don't you blame Simitis and Papadhmos for letting Greece in EU with fake statistics? You fucking wanted Europe and ND supported that with every chance - I can't see why you blame them.

The fact is that the past 2 years are the worse years in Greece after the war, both PASOK and ND are corrupted and lied.  They have same responsibilities and liabilities, but PASOK was the actual goverment.

 Today we got informed that Tasos Flambouras (creator of Darkfall) will be a candidate of the greek political party PASOK. The party that totally destroyed Greece the past 2 - 3 years and definitely had a bad impact in greece the past decades. It's the most corrupted political party in Greece and in Europe as well. It's too bad to hear that a man who tried hard to accomplish his dreams now he is getting involved in a party that had destroyed and will destroy other peoples' dreams.. Really shame on that betrayer...

The elections will happen in 2 weeks (6th of May) and politicians started lying again, and now Flambouras is officialy a LIAR..

What's worse? They keep on closing our threads on Darkfall forums which have to do with this subject. Just fuck you.

 You started as an indy and now you are the biggest bastard in gaming history, I personally cancelled my subscription on Darkfall and will not really get involed in Darkfall 2. what he did was just too much... He was a liar and now he wants to make it official, stupid betrayer...

Very interesting and unexpected information.. Thank you for that find..

(My 2 cents now): NCsoft nailed it with Aion... The westernezation was awful.. Anyway, I think it might be succesful only if NCsoft doesn't change ArcheAge in order to publish it here..

@xDayx Check his 1st requirement again, he said a decent community... Okay, kinda joking.. Even if I would not recommend it to him, I think he should try it..

Now at OP, what I suggest:

-A tale in the Desert MMO (ATITD), it perfectly matches your defintion (if you don't bother with combat, as ATITD doesn't have any at all) a completely crafting sandbox MMO, with great community but NO COMBAT.  

-Ryzom (also perfectly matches your definition),excellent crafting system and the best (imo) community in MMOs

-Wurm Online and Ultima Online, if you don't bother with graphics (both excellent sandboxes)

-Vanguard, more of a hybrid but I think you will like it.

-Well, why not, also check Uncharted Waters Online, Xsyon, Darkfall Online and Mortal online..

Hmm, well more come to my mind.. How could I forget about the sci-fi hits.. Definitely check Eve online (it's really complex, but a super sandbox) and have a look at Perpetuum and Earthrise.

 "The size of ArcheAge’s world is about the size of original WoW’s before its expansion came out."

From the interview with a developer of XLGames, from OutpostGamez.com.

Originally posted by Charas

Quoted from the ArcheAge wikipedia page :

The developers promise a community like that of Ultima Online, PvE comparable to typical sandboxes and PvP taken from Lineage 2. The game itself is developed as a “sandbox” – where the player is completely free to choose what to do and how to live. Expanding on this, characters won't be subject to strict limitations on growth, such as is the case in other MMOs....The game's designers want players to have a big impact on the world; each server will be unique due to players developing their world’s history and exploring the map in different directions.

Not a pure sandbox you say?

 

 A pure sandbox? Nope, definitely not. It's a sandpark...ok see.. A community like UO: doesn't have to do anything with sandbox or themepark imo. It's just a community of a MMO, I am really sure that WoW/Rift RP servers also have great communities.

About PvE: AA features an open-world PvE, this doesn't have to do straight with sandbox. I mean see EQ2 or Ryzom's system. Players are able to create their own dungeons (instanced), add their mechanics and then play then witm guild/friends...I think this is pure sandbox PvE.

Also, about the completely free to choose what to do and how to live.. It does't tell me anything. Someone who plays a themepark MMO, he may choose whatever he wants. He can PvP, go out on the (limited) open world pvp areas, do BGs, do arenas etc, he can PvE in many ways, he can craft, he can go out do quests and learn the lore, harvest/gather material, become a collector or an achiever, go to player pubs and socialice, to RP.. etc etc.. There are also unlimited possibilites, developers can make unlimited rails and players may choose which one to get..

Well anyway, AA definitely is not a pure sandbox MMO, and to end the thread I will quote what Jake Song (creator of ArcheAge) said: "ArcheAge is going to be 50% sandbox and 50% themepark. Condering WoW is at 10% and Ultima Online at 100%"

(can't find that interview for now, searching..)

 For you talking about the publisher etc, I think you should not really be that worried. Jake Song (CEO of XLGames) has the proper experience and obviously he knows what he is doing and what he is going to do.. He said that the main goal for ArcheAge is NA/EU audience, so I highly doubt if he'll trust someone who will destroy AA by "westernizing" it or whatever..

 If you want to have a taste, look at this video,

(Important note: As for now they have only introduced the 20% of the world, the rest 80% is ready, but not implemented in this CBT. Also, in the video he doesn't explore all the 3 continents). Have fun!

Originally posted by jjjggg50

We also have a nifty game called ArcheAge and its being developed by Korean game studio, XL Games. XL is struggling to find a publisher in the West, it is also facing accusations of stealing artwork from the creators of Tera; another upcoming MMO. The chances of seeing ArcheAge available in the West are extremely low.

Kinda off-subject but just to inform the community: XLGames haven't seriously considered looking for a Western publisher yet, as far as we know actually, but saying that its struggling to find a publisher here is really wrong. Hence it has a big bugdet, so a good many companies will be motivated to take advantage to it. Moreover, they designed AA having western market in mind, they aim for this market- so the chances to release here are extremely high. Also about the stealing artwork is definitely misleading. Tera stole the artwork from a NCsoft's game, I think it was Lineage... Funny though, Jake Song - CEO of XLgames- was also the creator of Lineage...

And my 2 cents, investors and big publishers only care about money - it's just business, you can't really do anything. So since the audience isn't really big enough for a sandbox MMO, why would they make a AAA one? 

 I really doubt if there could be a precise feature list for ArcheAge, like most indie MMOs have, but I'll try to summarise it.

Huge world map, Dynamic environment, Mass PvP (100+ people), Player housing, Crafting & production, Adjustable interface, Mounts, Naval warfare, Persistent World (from wikipedia).

Also 'a community like that of Ultima Online, PvE comparable to typical sandboxes and PvP taken from Lineage 2" I think describes it pretty well, and lastly from their official site: "ArcheAge features a massive, dynamic world designed to be filled with your adventures! Every decision you make could begin a new chapter
in the history of ArcheAge. 

You can cooperate with your enemies, win fame by helping people in danger,
or become a renowned craftsman
by making fine items or producing exceptional crops.
You can build a house and found a new town.
You can be a sailor and sail around the world.
You can be a lord of a castle and rule your territory."

Originally posted by eyelolled

if you don't like PvP messing up your PvE then don't play the game. I'm not going to bother with this game because of it but I don't expect or want every game to be the same. If the game doesn't get a huge following because of it's mechanics, then who cares, but the last thing I want to see is more games ending up being the same.

Aaah dude, real PvP comes from PvE. Of course I want PvP to mess up with PvE, then it gets a point. Otherwise is just a meaningless arena with griefers and gankers...read my post. PvE players must and can enhance PvP!

 Also have to say once again, stop being close minded! Many MMOs today are heavily focused on PvP and as a result they discourage PvErs from playing the game and they quit! BUT! There are many ways that people can think of to make that players STAY!

 In my opinion, MMOs today have reached the bottom of in-depth on PvP (I think even from the days of Ultima Online) but this HAVE NOT happened in PvE yet! There are many ways to enhance it and use it that to EMPOWER the Open world PvP!

PvErs are a very big playerbase of MMOs today, and they definitely can help creating a breathing open world full of PvP. If we give them REAL PvE, REAL FUN AND CHALLENING PvE there are ways to combine it with PvP and use their effort to enhance open world. I will just give an example, imagine players having a real, strategic fight with the final boss of an instanced raid. Were HARD and TACTICFUL encounters are involved, and when the boss dies players will be able to skin him or gather some "protected" materials. Then these materials could be used to empower the crafts or their guild castle/village!  Of course these materials would be gatherable to open world too! Yeah, you might say "People would just PvE to get them" - BUT THIS HAD TO DO WITH DEVELOPERS THE IDEAS and how the implement it! If they have a really challenging and strategic PvE fight then it would be VERY HARD to acquire them (harder than open world)! Then why would people try to gather them in instanced raids? BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE LIKE PVEing that way! GIVE them a challenge, give them a reward and enhance open world pvp. There are many many other ideas in order to balance and combine them, dont be close minded. INSTANCED PvE today in themeparks is just a meaningless grind for gear etc. no effort, no real fun, no challenge. THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES! TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE PVE PLAYERBASE, THERE ARE WAYS, DONT BE NARROW MINDED.

Thank you all for your answers, and firstly I have to say that you'd better read my post before you actually answer. Also I am not saying to replace open world PvE with instanced, just introduce the perfect combination, and don't take some things so close-minded, there are unlimited and meaningful ways to have instanced PvE.

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Originally posted by wizyy
There are plenty of world bosses, and in my opinion, ArcheAge tries to be a MAINLY PvP oriented game.
If it tries to go down that road (instanced PvE), then it will never truly satisfy MMO "locusts" who will eat up the content too fast and whine about how the game isn't finished.
The "endgame" in ArcheAge is PvP - and the whole concept revolves around it - sieges, naval warfare, and even the world bosses I think.
The game tries to revive the competitivness in skill and strategy - not the competitivness in "who has the greatest purplez" - which MMORPG genre has come to after WoW.

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Dude, dude don't take instanced PvEs so close-minded. Of course most of themeparks today feature them just for the purplez or gear score etc. This is just bullshit, I definitely agree. But there is a whole new and very creative system that it could be introduced in ArcheAge concerning instanced-PvE. It doesn't have to be a mindless fight to acquire gear. It could be a completely strategical fight to have some real fun with your fellow guildies, while the reward doesn't destroy the open-world experience. Of course this requires revolutionary and fresh ideas from developers (ok, and money too). Also, some people find competiviness way more interesting in PvE than in PVP (I'm not of them, but why exclude there players from a game with endless possibilities)..

And no, ArcheAge is not going to be a mainly PvP game. Quoting J.Song - Archeage will have the community of Ultima Online, the PvE of a typical sandbox and the PvP from Lineage. While the endgame in Archeage will be around sandbox, and this has maaaaany meanings, including PvE too (take a look at Ryzom dungeon maker for example).

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Originally posted by TheHavok

 

I think the pvp and pve endgame argument is valid on both sides. But being a pvp junkie I will say that it is refreshing that the developers are focusing on pvp incorporated in their pve (for example world bosses). Bring back the hard work! Bring back the feelind of accomplishment when you down world bosses that most guilds cannot even get close to touching!

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Very nice and was kinda expecting such a post. Well see TheHavok, I am a pvp junkie my-self , Darkfall and DAoC vet my-self I am really into this. Once again, I am not saying that instance PvE must replace the world bosses. I'm talking about the perfect combination, something that undoubtedly requires hard work from developers. But MMOs is all about having fun, and how those guilds that cannot even close to touching a boss will have fun? And how a guild that downs such a boss manages to do it? Obviously that guilds has the elitist gear that somehow collected, either from material grinding or whatever the game feature. Every player and guild must have fun in a game with endless possibilities, of course without this destroying the main goal of ArcheAge - aka open world experience.

I also had many experiences with open world bosses and their defeat too. But I could have a simillar feeling when I downed with my guild one of the hardest and most strategical bosses in instanced PvE.

mod edit

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Originally posted by kantseeme
How about a mix of both. have some instanced pve and some over land pvp. God forbid if there are gear sets in the game but if there are have some of the gear come from instances and some from over world. make people do both IF they want the full sets. If not they can mix and match from droped/crafted gear.

 

 

I just hope theres nore to PVEing then just a dreaded gear treadmill and faction grind.

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Yeap, pretty much what I'm saying, a perfect combination would please everyone.

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Originally posted by Sluske

 

Sounds like fun to me :)

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Yeah definitely, I also find that fun too. Always have to be concious and aware in order to defeat hostile players when the pop, sure. But a "game with endless possibilities" should undoubtedly feature PvE, challenging and real PvE, that appeals to many players out there.

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Originally posted by PsychoPigeon
Instances, especially the ones you are talking about i.e taking hours to complete, take people away from the open world which is what ArcheAge is all about.

 

 

I think there's enough games you can play if you want to spend 4 hours in an instance with a party. No need to ruin one of the only promosing open world pvp games to arrive in years rather than try create some form of hybrid like Aion where they added your long instances but then tried to get people to open world pvp. A game needs to define itself rather than be just one messed up blob trying to cater to every little group and Jake Song is boldly doing that.

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Well well wait bud, I notice a lot of misinformation here. First of all, about my points, I am not saying instanced have to be never-ending. Featuring hard and challenging instanced doesn't mean that they must last 10 hours. But they should also introduce such instances, cause if players have fun in such, why not please them? (as long as these instances doesn't destroy open world ofcourse).
Secondly, no no, there aren't really any games out there to spend 4 hours in a quantity PvE zone, grouping with people and doing 4 hours the same boring grind (smth most MMOs do) is something that I strictly dislike. Although, there are already many quantity open world PvP mmos out there, and actually ArcheAge isn't really going to be one of them. Open world is just going to be part of ArcheAge (50% sandbox, and pvp mostly happening in 3rd continent).

Whatsoever J.Song stated that ArcheAge is going to be a total hybrid in order to please as many as players they can manage to.

So ok ok, before you start flaming and shouting at me "Themepark/wow fanboi" "s2pid grinder" etc etc, let me explain...

First of all, It's very hard - and actually pointless- to have proper PvE in open world. (and when I mean PvE, I am talking about the AI/boss encounters). Why?

Because open world PvE it merely means PvP. If there is a boss with some VERY strategic and hard tactics to get it down, and you manage to harm him, then another guild may pop, gank you all and continue your work that you struggled to do.. Plus many more frustrating encounters.. but let's take a look at instanced PvE to clearly see my point.

In instanced PvE there are endless possibilities. The logo of ArcheAge is "a game with endless possibilities" why not enforce this to PvE too? In open world PvE there are not endless possibilities, there are just bosses with the stupid tank and spank tactics. Or well, some of them may have "Move from position X to Y, in order to avoid the AoE spell" or "5 minions have spawned, kill them". That's not tactics, that is some stupid encounters to make the boss seem harder. Also, having more HP to the boss (taking some hours to down him) it doesn't mean it's hard, and I think thats obvious. So in open world PvE, there are only 2 possibitilies - tank and spank the boss and there is the only possibility for a hostile guild to appear and try to gank you, if they succeed they win, if they don't you just keep dpsing the boss.

While in instanced PvE, as I said before, there are endless possibilites. Developers can create mobs that have some REAL strategic and hard fights. This does not mean that they will have 1 billion HP and 1 million Attack Damage. From my past experience I can remind of many MMOs and encounters that bosses and mobs had a real meaning and a real fight. Just look a decade ago at Everquest, or World of Warcraft pre-WotLK. Yeah, there were some real and challenging fights. And of course, don't forget Dungeos and Dragons Online - that's how creative people do it. Having dungeons full of puzzles and riddles to solve in order to complete it, combine it with some real strategic tactics and voila! a really fun and strategic experience is created.

To be more precise about what strategic PvE may be, except for the undeniable encounters in Everquest/DDO, just take a look at a game that I think many of you have played - World of Warcraft (BEFORE WRATH OF THE LICH KING). During Vanilla..aah so good days.. It was a great combination of open world/ instanced PvE and crafting gear. For raids you would need 40 people being well organized and know what do to in every fight, and this could take many weeks to succeed it. I can recall non-ending fights with alot of adrenaline and immersion with my fellow guildiies (the greatest experience I had in a MMO). The world bosses too, real lore-wise dragons(mostly) that need hundreds of players to take down. Just unforgettable moments... Or well, in Burning Crusade too.. The most fun and strategic fights I had in PvE ever, every single raid and every single boss had its own encounters (some easier and some harder), grouping with 25 of my fellow guildies and trying for weeks to take down the final bosses of the harder raids..

Such encounters cannot happen in open world bosses, for various reasons, some of which I already explained.Furthemore, don't be close-minded. Instanced PvE does not mean endless grind to acquire gear in order to replace it with the next's raid, even if this is fun for some people ( Actually millions of people) it's not the real goal.

The greatest way for PvE is a combination. Include some real strategic and hard bosses in instanced PvE - a REAL challenge, and include world bosses to the 3rd continent that will not have a big difference from the loot drop regarding instanced bosses.

Lastly, once again, DON'T be narrow minded. Just imagine an instanced raid, which needs many hours in order to complete it, it may require players to have their character there for whole days or weeks (they will be able to log in/log off in that instanced world). Include real puzzles and riddles in these instanced worlds, and face the big challenge. Players e.g. will have to craft some buildings (from the resources inside the raid) to house all the guild while they log off, making a proper use of crafters too! Or even imagine this raid having an ocean and special bosses/ lore adds to face with your ship. Or even imagine having DMs playing with you, yeah some Community manager GMs may give some time with roleplaying guilds to guide them through immersive and mysterious worlds. Or even raids that you will have to complete without evolving combat, just your mind and the strategy. There are endless possibilities, which apparently can't be featured in open world PVE.

Something more to add: Vanilla/TBC raids really got nerfed after wotlk release, so don't expect to face a challenge now. Also after wotlk, raids become really easy and a gear grind.

Also we already know what ArcheAge is going to have. Quoting J.Song "PvE similar to typical sandbox MMOs', something that kills me. ArcheAge already did very in-depth steps to PvP, why not do in PvE too? I was really expecting something WAY more creative from J.Song and his team..

 Disclaimer: I have played most (if not all) sandbox,and not only, MMOs out there. All of them, and typical ones definitely, had very limited (if not any) PvE at all. Obviously, this is not endless possibilities.

Also I am a Darkfall and DAoC vet my self and I am a lot into harsh PvP, and I do like it - but in the say way I do like "harsh" instanced PvE.

Also have a look at Ryzom's dungeon maker to see how ultimate sandbox can be connected with instanced dungeons.

 Also have to say once again, stop being close minded! Many MMOs today are heavily focused on PvP and as a result they discourage PvErs from playing the game and they quit! BUT! There are many ways that people can think of to make that players STAY!

 In my opinion, MMOs today have reached the bottom of in-depth on PvP (I think even from the days of Ultima Online) but this HAVE NOT happened in PvE yet! There are many ways to enhance it and use it that to EMPOWER the Open world PvP!

PvErs are a very big playerbase of MMOs today, and they definitely can help creating a breathing open world full of PvP. If we give them REAL PvE, REAL FUN AND CHALLENING PvE there are ways to combine it with PvP and use their effort to enhance open world. I will just give an example, imagine players having a real, strategic fight with the final boss of an instanced raid. Were HARD and TACTICFUL encounters are involved, and when the boss dies players will be able to skin him or gather some "protected" materials. Then these materials could be used to empower the crafts or their guild castle/village!  Of course these materials would be gatherable to open world too! Yeah, you might say "People would just PvE to get them" - BUT THIS HAD TO DO WITH DEVELOPERS THE IDEAS and how the implement it! If they have a really challenging and strategic PvE fight then it would be VERY HARD to acquire them (harder than open world)! Then why would people try to gather them in instanced raids? BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE LIKE PVEing that way! GIVE them a challenge, give them a reward and enhance open world pvp. There are many many other ideas in order to balance and combine them, dont be close minded. INSTANCED PvE today in themeparks is just a meaningless grind for gear etc. no effort, no real fun, no challenge. THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES! TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE PVE PLAYERBASE, ENHANCE OPEN WORLD PVP WITH THEM, THERE ARE WAYS, DONT BE NARROW MINDED.

(Sorry for any language misunderstandings and the wall of text)