I agree with the OP, but also with some of the things other people say in this thread.

I'm not very active in this site as I used to, but reading this post I felt the need to give my opinion.

Although I totally agree with the problem of giving too many rewards to players, and although I also agree that MMOs today are more of a Game and less then a Virtual World, I think MMORPGs were stale for so long that all the changes right now are the main reasons why players feel so "lost" in the genre. They don't know what MMORPG's stand for anymore, at least in terms of what to expect in their gameplay experience.

The genre is growing steadily with much more players than it had before, in many more games than before, but along with this there are more and more games looking to give motivational and rewarding experiences, because those are the ones that attract the new players each day - yes, I said "day", because games are now on a competitive level where each day might represent the gain and loss of players to the direct competition, and if only 1 day can be a problem to the game itself with a downtime service, a week or a month might be the end of the success of many goals they devs had in mind by giving the wrong updates.

The problem with this is, with so many motivational experiences and rewards, people start getting tired of them and don't know what to do with them all. Many of those rewards become things with no value and the real valuable ones are only possible if you are "a true hardcore" (aka have no life or spend real money) or if you have A LOT OF LUCK.

They also try to give many experiences in terms of different gameplay, but then they create even more rewards and motivational experiences that in less then a month will become "meh" in the middle of so many things to do and get.

In the end, there are so many MMOs creating so many features while looking for the "special one" that motivates all their player base, that all of them end up having the same things over and over again with different skins and with an excessive amount of rewards with no value at all.

The Virtual Worlds the OP talked about is something many MMORPGs are trying to do right now, but it just gets past players when they see the giant list of things to do and get. With so many features, missions, rewards, etc., the players forget all about the Virtual World and start thinking about the Game - to have fun and become good player - and after a while they forget about the Game and start to become focused in best rewards and in beeing the best. When that happens, the MMO is not fun anymore, it's just a "job" (or a filler) untill the next MMO comes again.

And then, the cycle repeats itself.

But It seems we are getting somewhere. To me, it seems each new game is trying to get both of those concepts, a Virtual World and a Game, and with this we might see a final change in the genre in terms of definition.

I don't know if the gerne should be separated in 2 or 3 genres, but to me it seems games will get to a place where the games are finally labelled in the correct genre again, like they were before as MMORPGs.

As a GW2 player since Betas and a user of this website for some time, I'm not sad in another game staying above GW2.

In a matter of fact, I hope that happens, so that ArenaNet can make GW2 better and give it's players more fun, more content and more fixes. 

BTW, I see a lot of people saying other users don't agree with the results, accusing them of beeing GW2 fanboys without even knowing if they voted for other games or not. Get off your horses, many complainners don't believe Pirate101 won because it was completelly unexpected, considering all other games with big communities in here.

I didn't even participated in this vote because I was playing the game. And I guess many other users of this site were doing the same with their favourite games.

Pirate101 devs were really smart and they proved everyone that a good and strong community is one of mmo's biggest strengths, if not the biggest of them all!

Gratz to Pirate101 and all other games out there that won something.

Including GW2 - Most Innovative Game of the Year! YEAH!

Great Thread! Yes, please "sticky" this!

I already copied all this info in a thread for my guild (referring your nickname of course) and, although we still have to try all this tips one by one to see how viable they are, we like them a lot. Although I don't think  1 or 2 things really work that well, that's a personal opinion and a matter of trying ingame.

Thank you very much!

I saw my friend playing the game and I have to say it seems to be a very good game. But once he showed me the end of the story and the final battle against Diablo, I was somehow shocked and asked him "Did you completed the story in 1 day?". With his answer "Yes", I lost my interest in it. 

So I have a question: playing in harder modes will give you more story? or at least some parts of the story that he never saw? What about using other classes? Or is the story the same everytime you play it?

Originally posted by bishbosh

people staunchly defending everything about gw2 is reminding me of all those other fail mmorpgs out there. they all had the same fanboy crowd licking up any crap thrown at them and BAM the game tanks. 

i was intent on prerodering 10th april and now i dont even know if i want to buy the game. i dont want to play a game full of people that will take any crap from the devs/publisher because i know in the long run the game will suck because criticisms will be drowned out with " WOW had the same problems on release", " you havent even played to max level", "go back to WOW" etc etc. 

i dont know if im the only one that gets turned off game by fanboyism, there are probably more people out there so i think its best to take that into consideration and be a bit more welcoming and less aggresive/vile when someone criticises gw2 or questions its "greatness". i would like to see gw2 do well (more compeition=better games for us) but games wont do well if developers cannot hear the players complaints.

I understand what you mean, but have you even gone to Guild Wars 2 Guru? I mean, anytime there's a new feature or idea of the game that generates controversy there's a giant tsunami of fans claiming about it and lots of threads and post on how to make it better. The problem is that a lot of these fans just whine about everything, while some others protect the game at all costs, but that doesn't change the fact that the game has been seriously modified since we saw the first demo almost 2-3 years ago. A lot of it because of the fans whining.

Most devellopers never show their game, or just show 1 aspect of it that is the "new innovation" (and only one) they have, and they have all their fans supporting the game, untill it's released and it survives for like, 3 months.

Do you know why people think Guild Wars 2 will be different? Because ArenaNet devs have been changing the game according to players feedback, whether they are fans or not, whether they play mmorpgs or not. And those changes aren't things made in a rush, they are things that get through many different tests untill it satisfies them and the players. They go from little things like walking and eye colors to dramatic changes like the the sylvari. Fans don't support the game because it's god-like. they support the game because they know that if something changes, they will talk about it and ArenaNet devs will hear them. And if something isn't showed officially by ArenaNet, then it's not to concern much untill it is, because it will probably change untill then.

Originally posted by grimfall

• Curt Schilling – 38 Studios (Copernicus)
• Matt Higby – SOE (Planetside 2)
• Craig Morrison – Funcom (Age of Conan)
• Jon Peters – ArenaNet (Guild Wars 2)
• James Ohlen – BioWare (SWTOR)
• Brian Knox – En Masse Entertainment (TERA)
• Rob Hill – Trion (Defiance)

 

Not sure you could find a list of people more clueless about the future of MMO's.  It's like asking seven buggy whip makers about their opinions on fuel injection.

I say there's at least one of them that knows much more about it than the others do, IMHO.

People are worried about guild hopping and loyalty but they don't see this option in another way.

You see, people think that changing the guild you represent is against the loyalty you have towards your guild. That happens in another mmorpgs because you can only represent one, and if you hide yourself from one of your guilds to be playing in another is kind of like you're cheating your wife, and then she finds out.

But I think this system gives the the opportunity to make that situation as something really good for both guilds. You can coordenate both guilds and have more communication and a better relationship between them for the best of the server community and reputation, and for  more FUN.

Even if you are representing one of the Guilds, you will still be representing the other guilds because they will know who you are (in the guild roster), they will be able to contact you and you will still help them that way if you want to, without beeing afraid of them seeing you online.

That's not the only thing:

• in WvW it gives much more coordination between Guilds and to claim Keeps.
• In dungeons it lets players from different guilds to talk with each other and help each other, instead of relying to the members of your one-and-only guild.
• Dynamic events will become even more epic with more players in the same spots, teams and squads that belong from different guilds.
• PVP will have players from different guilds in more of the best PVP teams, which means having more guilds beeing well represented in PVP.
• Personal story will be much easier if you have new friends from different guilds and they are in the same chapter as you, or they just want to know how your story is.

It's a system that gives Guilds from a server to have a chance in beeing more social and friendly for the best of the server they are at, in order to have a better experience ingame.

I just want to ask this about professions: Why does the Guardian lack a long-range combat when all the other professions have it? And why do spirit weapons have so few attacks and are active for only 15 seconds?

And I have another question about Beta Event Weekends: If I pre-purchase the game and play in Beta Event Weekends, Can I play with different computers, at different times, using the same account in the same Beta?

Originally posted by grimm6th

Originally posted by deziwright

let me rephrase. while the combat in GW2 is dynamic in ways. it does not give ME that "feeling" of control that Tera brought me. When i play a different class in Tera i feel as if im playing an entirely different game. I dont feel like its rock paper scissors. I feel like I am alive in control of if i want to take damage to dish damage or  completely avoid an attack altogether. I felt my location meant much more tactically then in GW2. This is how I FELT playing these games in comparison. I was playing gw2 beta and when tera came out i was like "omg this is fun". There are certainly a TON of elements gw2 does better. To me combat and control of battle seems to be winning my gaming hours these days. Not a game that is just trying ot cater to everything. Which is fine as well. Im not here hating on GW2. every thread i state my preferences of tera to gw2 is just brought on by people who most likely have not played either or both. These are one persons opinions not facts.

 

To the above. You can just hold down the mouse to attack normal combos. Though i catch myself spam clicking for sure hehe.

 

I will be buying both games. They are both unique and special. I certainly expect GW2 to outsell any recent game. Tera will have its market and many of us will enjoy the hell out of it.

So...GW2 beta...you weren't in it, and if you were, you just broke NDA, so you weren't in it.

As for me, my experience with both games is reletively equal...A demo on a convention show floor.  My real first impression opinion of tera was that it was pretty fun, but not better than GW2 (which I had tried earlier that day).  Also evident is that if you like the fact that GW2 is shaking things up where questing is concerned, and you don't like kill ten rats types of quests, tera is likely not for you.

 

Now, for my combat comparison.  This really doesn't matter, as my knowledge of tera is incomplete and likely to stay that way.  I can say that, rationally speaking, which game is better as a whole matters WAY more than which game's combat is more advanced than the other, as I can guess most people are going to look at both games and see an effort to improve combat in MMOs.

So, while it may matter to some of you more than others, only a minority of people will look at one core feature over everything else.

Actually, deziwright can say that he was in the GW2 beta but ONLY if that beta was the Press beta weekend. Was it? Which press do you belong to? You're forced to say which is it unless you want to brake the NDA or, of course, you're lying. So, grimm6th is probably right.

Besides, you can actually fight like in TERA, you just don't have the aim thing in center of the screen and you have to use the right button to move your vision. Of course, that's only if you want it to. Most people target their enemy and the attack goes directly at them, but in case you find someone really skilled you will probably change between both in different situations. For ex: against thiefs that use a lot of stealth skills.

Not having the aim in the center and the necessity of using the right button to move your vision are the consequences of having both different features turned into one.

Originally posted by Kakkzooka

I like crystal balls.

This! The best post on the Thread!

Some people just need to stop expecting Guild Wars 2 to "fail". Theory crap without any fact whatsoever. Wait for the game to release please.

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by thekid1

Someone explain mode to me please.

 Story mode, explorable mode??

Story mode = Easy mode.

Explorable mode = Rage Quit mode.

 

Story mode = It's not that easy, but it's the easiest you can get xD. Also has a storyline shared by all story modes of all the Dungeons you can find.

Explorable mode = After you complete the Story mode you unlock this mode. You have up to 3 choices in each dungeon when you are in this mode, each choice will tell a story of it's own and have a completelly different challenge, but all of them are Rage Quit mode indeed xD.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Morcotulcon

You can't put Spirit Weapons  and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.

Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.

Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons. 

Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).

So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.

So.. why don't you just max out the two trait lines that "focus" on sword/shield and greathammer?

And then put 10 points in a 3rd line for something else?

Like maybe.. http://www.gw2tools.com/#t-g-ppfaa:dbc.cbZ.Xaa.aaa.aaa

Looks good to me.

Ok, I will now say the I WAS WRONG!  I tested it again and again untill I saw my mistake!

I will give you examples where I can have all of the weapons in the 2 sets gainning something from Traits.

Scepter/Shield + Greathammer  - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines. 

Scepter/Shield + Mace/Shield - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines.

Sword/Shield + Greathammer - 30 points left, I can max 2 Trait Lines.

My mistake was that I could have +10 points to use after 2 max Trait Lines in the  Scepter/Shield + Greathammer, but I had to give up on an additional bonus to one of the weapons in the other combinations (The only weapon that has 2 bonus).Then I realized, I was forgetting the 2nd bonus on one of the weapons in the Scepter/Shield + Greathammer combination, it didn't had it in the beguinning.

Things really are more balanced than I thought! At least in the Guardian!

Originally posted by BadSpock

Yeah, 5% damage to a specific weapon type is peanuts when you compare it to the increased flexibility of say.... 

+5% damage to Spirt Weapons or +5% damage to Burning targets in Guardian Traits.

 

I don't think people quite understand that GW2 is NOT going to really be a min/max "must top DPS charts" raid Grinder MMO.

You can't put Spirit Weapons  and Burning in the same place as weapons in this situation.

Spirit Weapons are influenced by, at least, 2 Trait Lines. Burning is influenced by all of them, I think. You can only change them out of combat, but most Trait Lines influence other kinds of utility Skills and Conditions/Boons.

Some Guardian Weapons are only tied to one Trait Line. Why would you have the weapon skills you like the most in 2 different weapon sets if the Trait Lines clearly say that it's more efficient to change at least one of those weapons. 

Example: I would like to use sword/shield and greathammer, but those can't be together if I want to have the best of each. I don't want the best of all weapons, just those that I consider my own playstyle = 3 weapons in 8 possible (outside water at least). Instead the Trait Lines are telling me the best and smallest change I have do is change my sword by mace or scepter. If I like more the sword/shield set and I want to have the Best of it, is better If I don't go with 2-hand-weapons. Or If want to go with the weapon sets I like the most, I can't use many points in the Virtue Line (That gives points to the Profession Attribute).

So, as you see, it's too restrictive. It's saying that the 2 weapon sets you want and the Trait Lines you want can't be the same in some situations, unless you want to be less effective than other players.

Originally posted by Zeroxin

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

 

The problem is that THEY ARE.

http://www.gw2tools.com/

Check it OUT!

Arms tree is clearly tied to swords, giving increased crit chance to them. Strength is tied to AXES. You are clearly limited in your choice of playstyle. You cannot effectively be an Axe-wielding warrior while picking traits from other stinking trees. This IS awful.

What gave you that impression?

Well, in case of the Warrior Pilnkplonk is wrong. BUT I think he has a point in some of the other professions. At least in the Guardian Traits, you can clearly see that some of the weapons are influenced by only one of the Trait Lines. Shield is by the Valor Traits, Sword and Spear only by Radiance Traits.

In case of the Elementalist, since this profession doesn't swap weapons anymore, tying element attunements to Trait Lines is not so good of an idea too. WE already see many people beeing misleaded by the same name between them and the influence each Line has on one and only attunement. only the Line of Arcane Power will influence them all.

So, It's true that this system might make some players: 1- never want to change weapons because they like the Traits they have; or 2- never wanting to re-spec Trait Lines because they like the Weapons they have. Those are choices that are too restrictive.

The best possible solution is giving different effects to all weapons when they are in different Trait Lines. The same thing to the Elementalist element attunements. I think they have to rethink, or add, more Major Traits in each Trait Line. But that's it. They have a good system IMHO.

Originally posted by cali59

I saw your reply but then I had to step out so I didn't respond to it yet.  I'll probably end up copying something like this over there as well.

I did see that your Major Traits can still be reslotted and that's something at least.  I know that even if we trait a certain way our other skills won't become useless, but I am concerned about people being gimped for particular encounters.

For example, suppose you have a warrior with 30 points in Defense.  (I know this is a work in progress, but here's the trait list and what's available and how it presumably gives 300 Toughness and 300 Compassion)  http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_warrior_traits

Now suppose you reach a spider boss that 1-shots everyone in melee range like the one described here.  http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=805995&postcount=42

If this warrior has to switch to a Longbow or Rifle, they'll still be able to contribute, but I'd think pretty poorly compared to a guy who could respec his traits.  He can presumably find 3 Majors which aren't totally useless (Adrenal Health, Cull the Weak, and Sure Footed for instance) but compared to what you'd come up with if a person could respec traits, it seems like a significant hit.  Even if they did have points in Tactics which they could switch to Longbow (they might, since it boosts Vitality), they'd still be missing out on all kinds of potential Strength and Arms points and traits, including possibly 200 or 300 points of Power.  Someone said you have base 916 to your 4 base stats at level cap (though also boosted by gear)?  Obviously we don't know how much attributes affect things or if these are even the final numbers or how much gear will play a role, but it seems like an awful lot to give up.

 

To everyone else here, I don't think this is the end of the world, but this what I had to say over at GW2Guru about this change.

 

After reading everything you posted (quite a lot, I already read some of that stuff but didn't remmember ) I understand your point of view quite well. But, IMO, I think you're forgetting some things.

Honestly I think that it's really a matter of balance between players and mobs/bosses, but that's not something you're unaware though. What I think you're forgetting is that players usually don't go to a dungeon after some minutes of gameplay, they need to be lvl 30 at least. Untill that time they will learn how to dodge properly, how to use their skills better and what kind of Build they want for themselves (including Traits). You are invulnerable while dodging and all the professions can do something else while dodging if their players feel the need to it untill they reach that level (You can see it in one of the Warrior's Minor Traits too). 

It's true, reading this article and thinking about it seems like they are trying too hard. Instead of going with something that clearly seems healthy, safe but with less variety in playstyles, they changed it to try one system with more playstyles in each profession and risk the healthy, safe condition of the game. But they are the ones playing everyday and none of the people that played during the Press Beta Weekend noticed most of the changes made (and they were there), probably because the game is more balanced and most of them learned how to play better after 1 day playing it (especially in movement and dodging).

Think of it this way: the devs are like the high levels of the game and they still changed it because they felt the lack of "personal taste in builds". Usually, high lvl players like to stay with the most effective build(s) and don't care about their own tastes besides the profession/role they are. If learners didn't had a hard time playing the game in the Press Beta, in fact they enjoyed it quite much, and if the masters of the game still find their uniqueness in their builds, this might be a good system after all. But I will still have my doubts, just like you and many more people, untill the next Beta Weekend players tell us how it really works out.

Originally posted by cali59

I really really dislike this change for two reasons.

 

First:

We realized that an important part of building a character is some sense of permanence. With this new system, you are flexible enough to change if you really want to, but you should still feel like the choices you made matter while you are out adventuring or slogging your way through a dungeon. In competitive PvP, you have a separately saved trait build and can respec free of charge.

 

I don't get this, it doesn't seem like it fits at all.  Combat is supposed to be fluid with people able to build towards different roles based on the encounter.  In some other game yeah I can kind of see the idea of having a tankish build of skills and then locking in traits to support that, but what if in GW2 you need to be controlling for one encounter and support for the next?  You can totally change your skills but now you have traits that don't support this change at all.

And in a game full of instant teleportation (and one person can leave a dungeon as long as they all don't) then what is the point of making people go back to town to pay a fee and make everyone wait?

The only way this makes sense to me is if traits are so complicated compared to skills that you want to actively discourage their respecing so people don't have to wait for people to keep allocating points before every boss battle.

 

And if that wasn't bad enough, we have this.

Major Traits (For each of the three unlocked slots, the warrior may choose any of these):

• Gain adrenaline whenever killing an enemy.
• Reduced signet-recharge time.
• Movement skills break out of the Immobilize condition.
• Reduced burst-skill recharge time.
• Gain adrenaline when inflicting a critical hit with an axe skill.
• Increased movement speed while wielding a melee weapon.
• Reduced burst-skill adrenaline cost.
• Chance to rally whenever killing an enemy while under the effects of Vengeance.
• Improved critical chance for each full level of adrenaline.

Traits that depend on specific things I think are particularly bad, but not so much when you can freely change them and your skills.  You just have to make a judgement call whether it's worth taking the trait when you have X number of Signets or certain weapons.  Now, if you switch your weapons/skills due to a different boss, you're now going to have 100% worthless major traits if you took these.

 

I really hope guildwars2guru is going ballistic over this.

 

edit: someone on GW2Guru is saying you need to go to a trainer to respec the points, but you can freely swap the major traits.  That's better but still not awesome to me.  Also I don't know if that's confirmed.

 

It was me Cali. I lurk here in these forums for quite a while now! xD 

But as I said before to you and another guy there, and to everyone here read it:

You can change the Major Traits like you could earlier and you have all of them available to you, and this is something a lot of people didn't understood yet. So, the old system of Traits change is still in the game. What you can't change without spending a small fee are the Minor Traits and the new Trait Attributes, because those are stuck in the Trait Lines you spend points in. The only way to change Trait Lines is re-spec the points in them.
So yeah, it's a middle ground of can/can't change Traits, but you will know what Minor Traits you wont use so, in my point of view, it's really about beeing a Jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none-Warrior or beeing, for example, a Master-of-2(+1)-trades-Warrior (giving the Build of Jon Peters in this last example). If you could change everything, the number of playstyles in each profession would have to be less because of balance in Traits. If you couldn't change anything, we would have another traditional MMORPG.

Just think. Respec is only if you want to change the points you have in the Trait Lines. 
As you see in the article, each Trait Line has pre-defined Minor Traits like in Warrior Discipline below (all of them related to swaping weapons), so you know you can't change those. But the Major Traits are only slots that you unlock, so you will still have the ability to chose which Trait you want in that slot.
If you only respec to change the points you have in the Trait Lines, that means you wont need to respec to change the Traits you have in those slots.

This are my conclusions about it, so it was easier to copy-paste from there.

My only question is in another problem. How will they manage to keep this current system away from "LF (class) with X,Y Trait Lines" in Dungeons/PVP/Squads/Guilds? Only time will tell! But I guess players will forget about that problem in a game it's easier to play socially with others.

Originally posted by Joekra

Originally posted by Honner

Originally posted by Joekra

B2P is not really common, the game is F2P, you just buy the software to run it.

so? how can be FREE to Play if you are BUYING it?

Again, B2P is not common, nobody says that. GW2 is not p2p as there is no sub, you do not pay for playing the game, you pay to get the software to be able to play it.

B2P is common in all the other genres, it's almost the only thing there is to the other genres. Besides, it's not FREE to play either and it doesn't follow the same rules of beeing F2P. Since it doesn't fit into any of the 2 mmorpgs usual payment model, we need to call it something else. And it fits perfectly since you obviously need to BUY the game in order TO PLAY it = B2P.

Bbblllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurg!

Playstation controller:

Left Anallog - Movement

Right Anallog - camera and targeting (it's not that hard in my opinion. If the skill with ground targeting reaches the edges of the camera then it will move by following it. We have seen something like this in other games).

Up - F1

Down - F2

Right - F3

Left - F4

Square - 1st skill   /    L1+Square - 6th skill

Triangle -  2nd skill   /   L1+Triangle - 7th skill

O - 3rd skill   /   L1+O - 8th skill

X - Jump   /   L1+X - 9th skill

L1 - Hold for 6th-9th skills

L2 - swap weapon

L3 - Interact

R1 - 4th skill

R2 - 5th skill

R3 - Elite skill

Start - Menu

Select - Chat

What do you guys think?

Some people think that Arena-net won't be able to have much profit from MTs this time for various reasons. Well, think again:

1- They will sell much more games than when the original Guild Wars was released.

2- The biggest income they will probably have is from "Transmutation Stones" because they are the only thing in the game that changes the stats from one gear to another. (Example: I just made/got this new armour with updated stats but I like more the armour I had before. So, I go buy transmutation stone to change the stats from the new armour to the old one.) Just imagine the quantity of players buying this just to look unique and awesome. We don't know if people will be able to sell the transmutation stones yet though.

3 - Character slots will sell A LOT!

With only this 3 reasons, they already have a big profit and there will certainly be more MTs besides character slots and transmutation stones.