Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by Telothynus

 

I don't think a 4 year development cycle would have fixed this game.  Atari simply picked the wrong development team to make this game, imo.  That isn't a knock against Cryptic, either.  They have CO/CoH/CoV, which were great titles.  But you don't send a team of hockey players to try and play basketball.  I'm not saying Perpetual was better either, I don't know the circumstances surrounding their ejection from writing the game, but what I DO know is that in my opinion, their BASE idea for the game seemed better.

And that idea was, the ship was the playground, then space, in that order.  There was a Starfleet Academy you had to graduate from first as part of a noobie quest. 

It would have taken longer to develop, but I would have waited for it.  So would a lot of fans, I think, that wound up quitting the present form of the game.

As far as the development cycle comment goes, I was speaking more in generality than for STO specifically. Cryptic showed with CO that even a three year development cycle is still too short for them; they are not so great at churning out content. STO would need more than just additional time, as you correctly pointed out.

 From what I have read, Perpetual's version of STO was vaporware; other than concept art and some 'screenshots' made using their engine (but not actually in the game), they had absolutely nothing. People say that they spent all of their money developing Gods & Heroes, and were going to use that engine for their Star Trek game. It is also said that Perpetual's original vision for STO got tossed away at some point, and had they actually made the game it would not have been like they originally stated.

As far as having a multi-player crewed ship? Cryptic could have done that if they had wanted to spend the time on it, as the answer on how to do it is in STO's Bridge Officer system: Just like in the shows, when one officer (player) is not there (is logged out), a NPC from the appropriate branch (science, medical, tactical, egineering, etc.) would man that station or fill that slot in an away team. Just as in the shows when an officer comes on duty (logs in), they would replace the nameless person manning that console (NPC) or beam down and join the away team (replacing the NPC in their slot).

Players would be assigned to ships to start with, with the ability to request a transfer to a ship with players they wished to group with regularly (friends, guild members, etc.). Of course for this to work, Cryptic would have to do something they stated they were unwilling to do; they would have to develop content for each of those primary ship jobs so that everyone had something to do. To make this version of STO, Cryptic would need to have spent at least 5 years developing it (and I am guessing probably closer to 7 years for them).

That is just one way that Cryptic could have made a far superior game. Unfortunately, there's just not much they can do now except fix the bugs and start handcrafting unique content (i.e., no more kill/scan 5 of X missions). Giving the Klingons an equal amount of content compared to the Federation (that's equal, not the same) wouldn't hurt either.

Dinendae,

We are on the same page, for the most part.  I do want to clarify that my comments about a player crewed ship being the playground were based on my best guess of what Perpetual was doing.  If they didn't actually have anything, then they didn't have anything.  But the screenshots certainly gave off an impression.

Cryptic couldn't even do it now without rewriting the entire game.  What gave that away to me were the bugs in beta, where you'de transport to a space station, and inside that space station was your ship.  Outside the bug occured too, in reverse.  Your character would float monstrously next to other ships.  That told me that the way they have it programmed, ships are on a scale VERY tiny.  This is why many people weren't happy with the bridge view.

If you're interested, I posted a musing in another thread of how I thought multiplayer ships could be made to work.  And yes, an npc or AI taking over in the absence of one crew member was certainly one idea, but I think the concept is much deeper than that.  I don't just say 'this is how it should have been', I'm certainly not that arrogant.  I actually am asking the question, can it really be done, on a massive scale?

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/277025/How-would-you-write-a-Star-Trek-game.html

Originally posted by grneyedvixen

I see lots of people, like myself compair games to SWG. Granted, it was my first MMO ever, made some great life long friends, but then in a blink of an eye, it was gone. All of it. Maybe it was the whole WOW era, or maybe my generation grew up?

I didn't mind you had one character per account, I was such a freak about the game, I had three active accounts to have three charaters on one server, and used my brothers account for one as well. I had my PVP girl, whom was a Riffelman/Doc, I had my Dancer/ID to give my guildies private buffs for PVP battles. I had my Tailor/Crafter on whom I played when I needed a break from PVP and wanted to make cash. I then had my TK/Fencer for my Jedi Hunter.

I liked the fact that, you could know almost all people on your server. At some point you either traded a valuable Item, or created something specifically for them. You may have even killed them in PVP when guilds would declair war on one another and then no matter where you were, you could be attacked at any moment. Or you may have been dancing, to buff them up.

I remember many times, just going out to farm Night Sisters with a few of my friends, to get the OH SO RARE Nightsister Bracer (Which I owned 2, because I am a girl and guys like to give gifts to girl gamers teehee) I remember running off on Naboo to find some AMAZING Place to put my house, to to have an awesome view of a waterfall. I also remember attending "In Game" weddings, was rare but some people really took the RPG serious and loved it.

I liked the fact that I could go to the Cantina and mingle and chat. This game wasn't about who could get to END GAME first, because there was no end game. You had so many combinations that you could be with skills. The options were endless. I had many friends who didn't combat at all, they just ran a store, designed clothes and outfits to wear around when you weren't pvping.

So, if there are any of you who are old SWGers, didn't mind the semi crappy graphics, but loved the game as it was, before the "WOW" craze happened, I would like to know.

I do however blaim the fail of the game on SOE. They took a perfectly good game, tried to make it theme park and ruined it. I think if they did a HUGE Rollback on that game, with a bit of fine tuning, maybe even a different type of server, they would get most if not more then the old subscribers they had before.

I just really want my SWG back :(

My answer was yes, in a heartbeat.  In fact, I played both WoW and SWG at the same time after WoW's release. 

Why?

Simple. 

Pre-CU and CU SWG offered me a sci-fi video game 'fix' that WoW would never be able to provide.

Originally posted by Sevenwind

Forums maybe, but AoC I heard all about bad community and players. Both games, STO and AoC I've had a postive experience in game. What goes on in the forums is different in game, in my opinion. AoC once you turn off general chat find a good guild the game is a lot of fun.

In STO the general chat has been pretty good and helpful.  A few asshats will chime in here and there but from my experience in past MMOs they are always there.

I agree, although I do not like nor play the game anymore.  The community in this game I personally didn't come across any more nor less 'jerks' than I have in any other community.  People were generally helpful in the general zone channel.  

What is actually lacking is any real community cohesion or group working.  But obviously you can't blame that on the community.  The reasons for that have been discussed numerous times in other posts, and I will not repeat them here.

...is that Jedi were kept in check.  They were an alpha class, and even though I disagreed with bringing them into the game -- because I knew everyone would want to be one, including me -- I strongly agreed that they needed to be controlled, population wise.

Two words.

Visibility.

Bounty Hunters.

Losing a skillbox was fair.  The idea behind an alpha class is it's not only hard to obtain that alpha class, but that it's even harder to maintain that alpha class once you have gotten it.  That's the privelege of being more powerful than the other professions.  I always thought it would also be fun to program in an occasional random NPC attack by Vader, even if your visibility was kept low.

The original penalty for being killed as a Jedi was too harsh, though.  Permadeath after three deaths.  Losing a random skillbox was more fair.

Jedi whined and whined and whined until the skillbox loss  was changed, of course.  Then everyone and their grandmother could obtain and keep Jedi, albeit through a long grind.  If I were SOE I would have been stubborn about removing a Jedi death penalty, I'd have been as stubborn about giving the players that as they were about reversing the NGE back to the old combat system.  :P  

Originally posted by Lunny08

"newer younger quick-gratification schmucks" Why are people so rude these days? maybe they just like the game because they aint whiny little Bi%"£es.

Alright, let me clarify.  I didn't mean everyone, it was a generalization.  But I have since the NGE came out encountered a LOT of rude, WoW like gearheads on my server.  I don't question why they like the game.  

Since you want to made rudeness an issue, I am simply pointing out that in my experience, the quality of mature people I see in SWG since the switch to the NGE has dwindled significantly.  The NGE has probably naturally attracted a different audience.  Given that the game used to be better in my opinion, I see nothing wrong with complaining about that.   This is, after all the SWG Veteran Refuge.

Originally posted by Antaran

Originally posted by Aetheus

 

Antaran, like you I was one phase away. I am glad that you still enjoyed it enough to stay on but at the time being a Jedi is what I was aiming for, so for it to just relaunch overnight and then to see a skill system based on World of Warcraft I couldn't be bothered.

Ironically, I actually moved to play World of Warcraft after that point - but then again, WoW was exactly what it was and did not make drastic game play changes.

I always say that I would have still liked SWG if they trickled the updates in, made changes to see how the reaction was, but they just threw it at us and I felt overwhelmed. They could have reeled it in with good marketing though rather than game changes, they have the most powerful IP in the world.

Ironically again, many players are bored of some mainstream combat styles and want something different, if the old system still existed perhaps SWG could have picked up some numbers for being unique.

 

i can imagine how you feel then m8 regarding that last phase change. i must admit i could have been jedi sooner but chose to take my time and go through the other skills to try them out before i dedicated myself. WoW never appealed to me after i tried the Trial but to each their own and fair does. Personally i wasted my money on Vanguard for a week before moving to Lord of the Rings and City of Heroes/Villians. the one thing i really missed was the pre NGE skill system and crafting from SWG. If those 2 systems were untouched and loot drops not changed then i'd still be playing to this day. When it comes to the combat system i have to admit that i tried a semi different style out when i spent 3 months in Age of Conan, not totally new or unique really as it was just like chaining attack moves together in order to initiate an attack, still a simple push button like the others though but i do admit to it being different.

To finish off i have been toying with the idea of going back to SWG one day but i'm really unsure as i always end up leaving for an extended period of time.

That is exactly what happened to me.  Stupidly, I stayed for the NGE, for one month, then I left.  I campaigned tirelessly on the SWG forums to bring CH back.  I come back when Beastmaster was implemented, and they made the Bio-Engineer portion of that tree TOO complicated, and they made the creature handling portion of beastmaster exactly like WoW.  What made me angry was that wild creatures were no longer tameable.  Newer players would have to spend a ton of money buying a rancor skin off a vet (IF the vet wanted to part with it) instead of being given a FAIR chance (like I was given) to own one.

Oh, and nevermind the fact that instead of growing on its own, you have to spend almost as much time grinding your pet to level 90 from scratch as you did grinding yourself to level 90.  Seriously, who wants to do this?

Disgusted, I left again.  Came back again later on a free 15 day trial offer.  Said hi to some old friends.  Never really got into the game, though.  Even the auto targeting system and the game collections didn't help.  I spent more time playing the stupid card game than doing anything.  Crafting system was still worthless.  The game was like WoW, people queuing up for dungeon runs to get this or that for better stats.  

Left again, this time for awhile.  

Came back a long time later, again to say hi to friends.  Very little had changed.  I finished my grind to Ace Pilot, which had been hanging unfinished since pre-NGE, but once that was done, everyone got bored and no one wanted to do anything in space anymore.

Came back for the last time back in December.  My guild mates were a little aghast at this point that I kept coming and going, but really, I think the only reason I return is just for nostalgic purposes.  I'd ride around the plains of Corellia to see if I could find a great plains stalker.  Or around Dathomir to see wild rancors.   Or just ride around the landscapes to see if ther are actual people around, or to see if anything has changed.

I was encouraged, time and again, to work on my collections as something to do for a character of 90 who wasn't that interested in the WoW like gear grind that now goes on in that game.  Collections, eh?  Well, I got that silly rattletrap pickup, but that was actually something useful.  The rest of the collections... I'm sorry, but trying to kill 10,000 stormtroopers just to gain 50 more slots in my house isn't my idea of a good time.  Or trying to kill 15 billion ships just for a title. 

SWG has really become shallow and hollow compared to its former self, and it's because of soooooooooo many more reasons other than just the combat change. 

The in game economy still doesn't exist, even though they've shut down and merged servers now.  Tailors still might make money.  Even Architects really don't anymore.  They finally gave players the ability to own and operate droidekas, and guess what?  As practical combat pets, they suck!  Buffbots still exist, albeit in the cantinas.  As a medic, you can buff people automatically.  But buffs really don't mean that much in such a cheesy, clunky combat system which puts speed before quality.

Lastly... I tried starting a new character in one of my 'returns' to the game.  To see if maybe I was missing something that the newer people in the game weren't.  The grind is very long, and very boring.

I honestly don't see the appeal.  But I wonder even more why people continue to stay.  On Starsider, there are supposedly many guilds there dedicated to JTL, now THAT I can understand.  JTL is still unchanged from the old days.  But this is still just an isolated group of people.

So, in short, I left, came back for a month, left, came back, etc.  

I need to stop doing this.  It's like returning to a dysfunctional relationship with a partner you know is just going to keep hurting you.

Sony ruined pre-CU SWG, by doing one simple thing.

Letting Jedi out of the box.

When the game was close to release, they said that there would only be two people in the entire galaxy within the game that would have 'Jedi' abilites, Vader and the Emperor.  

Sounded fair to me, because we all knew before game release that if they put Jedi into the game, everyone would want to be a Jedi.

By opening that Pandora's Box so quickly after release, SOE ensured themselves that they would have no time to work on anything else.  Nothing else in the game got fixed, because resources got allocated to Jedi, Jedi, Jedi.  

That is why the CU happened.

And the NGE.

All for one class in the game that never should have been in the game.  

The original SWG attracted a certain type of player, one who could appreciate the game for what it was.  Now, in the NGE, you see either die hard veterans who managed to adapt, or newer younger quick-gratification schmucks.

The original game was ahead of its time.  In terms of all the different things you can do in an MMORPG, it's still ahead of its time.  And one single decision to allow an alpha class to spring forth within the game too soon ruined everything.

Originally posted by DrSaw

Hey gang.  I'm an old pre-CU SWG vet and I finally found a game that I actually enjoy about as much as pre-CU SWG.  It's called Fallen Earth and is by a small development company.  It is post-apocolyptic in genre, and has many of the things that made pre-CU SWG so great (classess development, intense crafting).

I've been playing for about a week and have really enjoyed it.  They have a free trial so go check it out. 

Tried it.  It's fun, certainly one of the more original MMO's I've seen in awhile.

But if you're looking for the expansive sandbox combat system pre-CU SWG had, you are NOT going to find it in this game.  At all.  It is sandbox, it is mix and match, but the options you can actually mix and match are few.  

Fallen Earth doesn't try to be SWG, though, it is a very original game all its own.   And going into playing it, that was my mistake.  I wanted a game that recaptured pre-CU SWG, and if that's what you go into this game expecting, you are going to be disappointed.  

However, if you are looking for a very original sci-fi MMO with a sandbox type classless combat system, this is a game you should try.  Just don't expect it to recapture the magic of SWG for you.

Originally posted by Trioxic

 

 

 

 

I do like the idea that Fleets/guilds not own thier own star ship but certain would be cool to build a space station and operate out of that facilite for games, pvp, GvG and pve operations.

Good luck wthi this it is nice to think of but reality it will never be....

 

Oh, I'm just musing.  I'm not trying to write anything here.  :)  Like I said, I'm not a developer.

As for the guild idea, starships would themselves be the guilds, managed by the ship's captain and first officer.

Fleets would be loose starship alliances formed by Admirals.  But they could have names.  Rereading my disjointed post, it looked kind of confusing.  Sorry about that.

If anyone has any other ideas, feel free.  I’m just one person.

Originally posted by nate1980

Okay, the Captain of the Starship, according to the TV shows, have the authority to act in whatever creative way they feel as long as they aren't violating their orders or the Prime Directive.

So why is it that my bridge officer's are always telling me what to do? Sure, in the beginning they're only "suggesting" that you do this or that, but their suggestions always become your objective and if you don't complete those objectives, you won't complete the mission. Later in the game, they just tell you what you need to do next. I didn't ask them for their opinion, nor did they ask me if they could speak freely.

So I just feel like a puppet Captain, where the bridge officer's pull the strings.

Ships should have been the playground, then space.  Combat shouldn't have been the priority in the game design, not for everybody.  Captain should have been a rank that took a long time to obtain, and even longer to qualify for your own ship.

It's possible to design a game that is based on a slower grind, but with the casual player in mind.  A lot of people don't want to believe this, but...

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

Not a big fan of EVE.  Even though I can recognize that it is an extremely deep, rich, and complex game, I find it a bit dull.  I still would consider playing it if not for the combo of FFA PvP and severe death penalty.

That being said, I'd be more likely to play STO if it was just a reskinned version of EVE.  EVE is more like Star Trek than STO is. 

You're thinking in the right direction.  Space should feel vast, not heavily instanced.  

The other problem is as I've said in a few other threads.  The ship should be the playground, then space.  More like SWG:  JTL, but on a more massive scale.  

The thing that turns me off about EvE is that contrary to persistent whispers that they were going to implement it in the game, the ground game does not exist (but again, the ship being the playground would alleviate some of the boredom associated with this).  There really isn't much of a ground game in STO, either.

Originally posted by Dinendae

Originally posted by eolse

well STO is no diffrent from any other movie video game it was just rushed for a quick buck and the hardcore fanboys wont admit that its crap of would it realy could of been if it had 3+ years of development time

 Considering that CO was in development for three years, and was still lacking in content at release, I'm thinking that Cryptic should stick with a 4+ year development cycle.

I don't think a 4 year development cycle would have fixed this game.  Atari simply picked the wrong development team to make this game, imo.  That isn't a knock against Cryptic, either.  They have CO/CoH/CoV, which were great titles.  But you don't send a team of hockey players to try and play basketball.  I'm not saying Perpetual was better either, I don't know the circumstances surrounding their ejection from writing the game, but what I DO know is that in my opinion, their BASE idea for the game seemed better.

And that idea was, the ship was the playground, then space, in that order.  There was a Starfleet Academy you had to graduate from first as part of a noobie quest. 

It would have taken longer to develop, but I would have waited for it.  So would a lot of fans, I think, that wound up quitting the present form of the game.

And to be fair, I was against the Cryptic version of the game at first, I raved about how against it I was.  Then I stupidly followed the beta crowd blindly, because I was excited about the combat, and thought "Just accept it as an action game and you'll enjoy it, at least for awhile".  Wasted $100 on the Collector's Edition, ground to RA5 in just a month, before realizing, that I was right in the beginning with my original opinions of the game.  And that was, that everyone would be in a collective state of shallow excitement about the game at first, then...early burnout.  

A friend of mine, who had been waiting to see what the game was like (but didn't want to risk paying for it), got her hands on one of my beta keys.  She is very tolerant and loves all KINDS of video games, and has played many MMOs herself.  

She didn't get past the noob missions.  Uninstalled it immediately, and told me "I can't keep playing this...it's too much like CoH...doesn't feel like Star Trek at all".

I do not think that the current game can be improved enough to bring people back, because the basic and important parts of the game that the fans wanted...which were closer to a ship simulator and more of a sandbox type formula...were not there to begin with.  Trek fans have vocalized recently what I suspected all along, and that is that they never wanted a game centered around combat or war.  I'm sure Cryptic did their absolute best given their 2 year time limit by Atari, and I have no doubt they worked very hard to produce what they did.  

But obviously, based on the complaints, it isn't what the fans wanted.  

Nobody that was involved with developing this game listened to the fans.  And this is what you get...a small group of die hards pay to play it, then as soon as they figure out the game isn't Star Trek and isn't fun, they bail.

And before the vocal minority of people who are still fans of the game decide to speak out, if I could develop the game myself, I would.  I could write out how I'd like the game to work, certainly, but I couldn't program it myself.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

More than anything: The appearance tab.

I got so sick of the composite clones, pre-CU.

I completely forgot about that one, that one's great.

Again, for anyone that hasn't been back, the appearance tab allows you to cover up your armor with clothing of your choice, so you can be equipped with armor but don't have to show the armor on you at all.  Very nice customisation feature.

Originally posted by admriker4

Dont get me wrong, City of Heroes is a decent game. But lets be honest CoH is a very simplistic. It doesnt have real crafting. The graphics were somewhat dated even at its launch. The game is heavily instanced. And ultimately there isnt anything to do except run mission after mission after mindnumbing mission.

Cryptic doesnt exactly do things in the conventional way either. City of Villains was sold as a stand-alone product when it should have been merely an expansion. Cryptic takes on another MMO project that basically is a mirror image of CoH's genre. Whoever is running things over there seems content with their minimalist approach. 

Star Trek deserves far better than minimal effort. Star Trek deserves more than a combat-focused boring mission grind. Star Trek deserves a virtual galaxy simulator with total freedom to live out our dreams.

Star Trek was a cerebral experience where combat only happened as a last resort. Holdecks, diplomacy, relationships, and exploration were the main focus of Trek.

The WoW clone approach wont work with Star Trek. At least not if you expect to tap the large fan base that has followed Trek lore for 25-40 yrs.

So here is a warning to you Cryptic. We wont settle for what PE was doing and we wont settle for a wow clone either. Ignore the marketing suits, you wont get wow players to leave for Trek anyway. You need  a different game, something to appeal to sci-fi fans. Clearly that approach needs to be a sandbox virtual world with quests yes (but not forced), social classes, and the freedom to do something other than shoot stuff. Personally Id be happy to just run my own bar on a space station or maybe mine dilthium crystals.

Do things right, and the sky is limitless. Make the mistake of putting minimal effort into this project and you'll see wrath that makes Star Wars fans seem tame by comparison.

good luck.

Wow.  Now THAT is a prophetic post.

Let me be clear here, I don't care for the NGE version of the game at all.

However, there were a few improvements that I'd take to the old SWG.

-- All in space and JTL changes and additions.

-- The ability to fly your ship from any starport to any starport instantly, even if you left your ship at a different starport than the planet you're on.

-- The 1 minute shuttleport/starport wait.

-- All newer creature and vehicle mounts and pick-up craft, including the quest for the rattletrap pickup.  For those that haven't played SWG in a long time, these are vehicles that can pick you up pretty much anywhere outside of a city as long as there isn't spawn or a building blocking the ground.

-- The house packing system.  Very helpful if you are out of game for awhile.

-- The increased storage.

-- Hoth.

-- In partial conjunction with the increased storage, the collector's quests that allow the improvement of things like your storage space.

-- The card game (sorry, I know some people think this one is dumb, but I like it).

I'm all for improvements, and though I probably say 'If only...' too much, I'm going to say it here.  If only SOE/LA had put these ideas in as improvements for the older game with the older combat/profession system...

Any other improvements anyone can think of?

What is missing from the Game:

Exploration is not part of this game. 

 

Cryptic pretty much shot themselves in the foot on this one by making the game too instanced.  Their idea of exploration quests are the Nebula quests off the edge of the map, which are just randomly generated combat or click-on-this-4-times quests.  All you will see in the future is more of the same.

I wanted a game where the ship was primarily the playground.  Space should have been dangerous, secondary and part of the exploration motif.  Combat should have been prevalent also, but it shouldn't have been the top priority.

The ships flying around like dogfighters was absurd.