Originally posted by Shivati
Well, it's SOE ! "We're sorry, the Vanguard: Saga of Heroes beta program is restricted to U.S. residents only. We appreciate your interest in the program" SOE - US < EU Was looking forward too playing Vanguard, but since it's SOE, i dont have much fait anymore. SWG and the treatmeant of EU players.

When DAOC came out MMO's were still relatively new especially ones trying to do what DAoC does,  sure there was Ultima Online and the original Everquest but still the genre as such was still fledgling infact one would say its only reaching those troubled 'teen' years now.    Mythic made mistakes like any other company I think pre judging a game based on what company's name is on it is completely ridiculous.    Development teams change alot over long periods of time and especially from game to game.  Be patient and save your judgements on the game for when betas start ramping up. 

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

So are you saying you think the game is ready for release in a couple of weeks?

If I purchase a product I expect it to work as specified. Why should a computer game be any different from a car? So Sigil spent $40 million dollars producing a game, GMH spent a billion designing and producing a car. If a car had as many problems as some games are released with they would get lambasted, sued by consumers and run out of business.

Yet publishers constantly (generalising here) push games out the door when they aren't ready, then expect consumers to wait months for problems to be fixed so that the games are playable.

What other industry is allowed to ship products with so many problems?

 

Yes it takes millions to build and release a game and it continually takes money to keep paying artists and programmers so they stay on board, paying for server maintence, server power, bills bills and more bills.  Eventually these companies have to take into account that they're running up huge bills and if they don't start producing money  they'll never balance out the cost without charging us way more than we'll ever pay monthly for a game.   Granted I myself hate how we buy a PC game (especially mmos) and then have wait for patches on what to us seems like the smallest thing ever, but atleast we get those patches unlike a console game where crappy things have to stay. 

Considering how many years this game has been in production and they've had to take on more and more employees they're probably reaching the financial point that if they don't start making some money they'll go under.  Not every company are like Blizzard where they are self assured to be a huge success just because of the name alone of the game. (we all know thats why blizzard had staggering numbers of pre orders).   Infact their continued success astounds me.

We'll just have to live with the fact programmers have to go home and sleep at some point so MMOs are always going to have loose ends when released.

You think car companies don't rush out new models? Look at all the car models that have been recalled over the years.  Atleast game blunders which can be patched won't cause any deaths.

yes that just proves everything that shows us every skill ability and just large amounts of players going at each other  (complete sarcasm)

Beta test the game or wait for player reviews before giving your opinion.  Demo footage shows you bits and peices.

Um ... that has nothing to do with graphics engineering!  What you see visually is what the artists make.  Graphics engineering just allows you to see it and allows for special effects. 

As for your game play issues im sure there's moves that hit multiple targets just like any other game and thats not done by graphics engineers but by game play programmers which is a whole nother world in programming.

So you saw a demo of an unfinished game and you automatically assume there's no combo system or no this or no that.   But how do you really know? You don't!    You have no idea whats in the game from just watching some game play demos they did almost a year ago.

btw spell check yourself.

Originally posted by godpuppet
WoW had a pretty polished release.

Were we playing the same WoW at its launch?  I honestly don't remember it being that polished, classes were severly unbalanced, huge pieces of game play promised at launched lobbed off,  gear missing, looting issues(mine a peice of ore and get stuck until you log off in the 'looting' status), crafting issues,  all so they could rush it out to launch around the same time as EQ2.   I'd mention server issues if that didn't seem to be a common issue with every mmo launch.

Hell balance issues still exist because they constantly redo entire skill trees.

Everyone keeps blaming SOE for this game sucking but ever think that might be Sigil's fault?  They're the ones Creating the game, sony's just providing the funds to slap the stuff onto disk and put it in stores.

Originally posted by rungard

there is something inherently wrong with the way they are setting up the pvp system.

It makes no sense that if you arent the appropiate tier you "simply cannot attack" lower end players in specific areas.

i would like to propose an alternative system that makes sense from a gameplay perspective.

Each side would have "stealthed" roaming npc assasins who are high end npc tracker/killers. The lower the tier of the zone, the higher number of these assasins, who move around the maps like ghosts looking for targets of a specific range. i.e if you didnt want tier 4 players in a tier 3 area, they would only be agressive towards tier 4. They would only attack players they considered a "challenge" and wouldnt bother with appropiate tier players as they provide no challenge. Since these npc's are trackers, anyone coming in expecting to gank.. will probabally end up being ganked by these guys.

this allows for a few things:

1) you dont need hard mechanics to "prevent" players from playing, as the soft mechanics will provide a deturant.

2) this allows lower end players to participate in the killing of these high end guys since they will have help. It will also help players stay on their toes as the threat can be real.

3) from a gameplay perspective you havent prevented anyone from doing what they want, but you have put in a signifigant risk for doing so.

4) it will be more fun for the players who choose this activity as it will provide signifigant challenge for them as well.

 

personally it just makes sense to solve in game proplems with in game solutions before resorting to "stone wall" rules to protect players. This is a pvp game after all.

 

  

 

 

This is probably the most jack**s thing I've ever read its a blantant "I'm a ganker Im to scared to fight someone with skill so lets kill some lowbies" post.   The way the game is set up why would a high level player even need to go to a Low level PVP zone all the quests or scenarios for that zone are scaled for low level characters.  Its set up so once you're on the next tier your quests don't take you back to the other pvp zones.  I say zones because the way they are spoken about the areas for pvp are seperate from most pve areas.  

Stealth ninja assasins? How many lowbies can actually hit someone thats 20+ levels higher than them? I've never played a game where thats possible you miss 98 percent of the time.    I for one have never found it entertaining to stand there swinging at some level 60 for an hour in hopes that someone comes along to save me when im level 20.

Gameplay perspective my buttocks its gank perspective.  As a high level player your only concern should be with the war effort and that doesn't involve wandering into some lowbie zone and beating up 'school' children.   Storywise the move Mythic is making makes sense, for example Orcs especially the black orcs are all about fighting, but they like to fight challenges, they could careless about some weaklings.

It amazes me how everytime a new mmo that involves pvp comes up this subject comes up by atleast 1 person.   I admit I have the urge to flame the mess out of you from my own experiences with the old days of UO before they tamed pvp but it was ages ago, what 10+ years ago now.   The likely hood that any game will launch with a free for all pvp server is pratically nill.  I believe this because a mmo launches their first priority is to make sure everything is working properly.  Adding a free for all server would introduce a whole new load of things to watch for so why bother for such a small community.

You have to remember UO did get the whole pvp massacre of the innocents started, BUT it is very very different from most MMO's.    There was and are no quest system, no leveling, and to be honest magical items are easy to come by.   Its all about skill its based on a real world system of you can be anything you want to be.   You want to be nothing but a tailor fine, want to herd animals fine.  Want to be a fishermen excellent.   Want to be a dread lord awsome.  Games like Warhammer, WoW, Everquest and so on are not designed that way.    So free for all pvp is a secondary thought that is often offered if there's a big enough call from his current subscribers.  

As for the chances of one in Warhammer I don't see how that would really fit into the mythos of the world, but it is possible that with enough numbers asking for it they could give you one down the line after launch.  Honestly only the orcs would be the most likely race to want to kill each other for dominance if they keep to the mythos of the world.

Good luck with your dreams of remaining an immortal **stard.

Originally posted by Balmer

Originally posted by MillaMerani

Originally posted by Vinadil

Originally posted by MillaMerani
I don't PvP so where are my casual epics?  One might say it is not real PvP at all, rather a massive honor farming fest, but still...

There is no part of WoW that does not require farming... so yea that should be nothing new to you.  The issue here is what you have to DO while putting in your time.  For those whose brain's go numb and eyes bleed when they see the same instance for the 20th time... but who don't mind running PvP instances (as they are at least a TOUCH different game to game), well this allows a more palletable grind.

 

I don't know if there is a way to remove WORK from REWARD, even in a game... and honestly I don't know if I would want to play such a game anyway.  The important part is making the "work" side enjoyable enough to do and making the "reward" side worth the investment.

WORK  | GRIND =/= Fun

Many people justify the need for hard work to get an epic item by saying "EPIC means EPIC effort".

I say that's bullshit. EPIC effort should mean EPIC FUN! EPIC should be EPIC difficulty, but difficulty =/= grinding. Grinding is a simple time sink that the companies put into their games to keep you subscribed. Designing something that is based on grinding for honor/reputation/items does not require creativity.

Ok, they designed an armor upgrade quest. It could have been fun if the results were worthy of the effort, but the upgraded stats are just slightly better than those of the old items.

I guess Blizzard is aware of the issue because - as far as I know (I may be wrong, I only say what a guildmate and friend told me about his experience in TBC beta) - some of the Burning Crusade quest items/drops are actually better than T2 items so player like me who don't like the grinding/pvp'ing aspect of the game (I'm a questing freak so bear with me) will have a chance to catch up with the raiding guys.

Btw, I agree this was a positive patch.  The fact that it does not offer anything to non-PVP'ers does not detract from its positive effects.

Too bad, MMORPG's have not evolved to the point yet where dynamic content dominates the max level end-game, offering fun for all playstyles. Hell, people may argue that it is something that is nearly impossible to achieve, but the same could have been said about the MMO's of today just one decade ago.

It's posts like this that make me want to punch babies. 

This kind of move by Blizzard does nothing but degrade the people who put in actual effort to attain the necessary faction to have earned epic rewards. 

This casual vs. raider is a tired argument and ultimately, the direction of Blizzard currently will drive away hardcores because the poor, whiney casuals who think they're ENTITLED to the same rewards as those players who put in more effort, more hours, and undoubtedly more skill (read: have more experience) demand Blizzard cater to them exclusively. 

You want a casual game, go play phucking Sim City and GTFO of my MMO. I'm trying to actually achieve something...unlike you.

 

Full loot pvping is one of the biggest turn offs for me atleast.   I mean I loved ultima but I used to hate wandering down the road to have 10 people jump me and rob me even if I appeared naked!  I'm sure there's a viable nitch of people who would love to see these ways ressurected into a new game but its a casual gamer's market, which means its very unlikely a game would make this a full feature.

Even Ultima removed it when there were losing gamers left and right and made it side feature on a  seperate server 'shard'.  If a mmo now added it in its most like to do the same make it a seperate game server if there's a large enough audience call for it.

 I hardly doubt this game will give it to you being item centric so I put no.  I'm surprised Shadowbane doesn't have it, isn't that a full all pvp game?

Originally posted by godpuppet

Originally posted by Rytif
I just find it annoying when regular people (who most likely are in beta and migrating to a different mmorpg every week) come on here and say a game isn't ready. Trust me, the "Programmers" know when it's ready and they have "QA" testers who tell them that it's fine. You aren't special, I'm sorry.

Whats the matter? Jealous :P

I was only invited at the beginning of Beta 4 (less then a month ago), it doesnt take longer then a week to realise this game is not ready and im sure the Developers realise that too, yet they are still pushing for a release.

EDIT: Mind you, the Devs prob have little say in the matter, they're just doing a job for a wage. Its the Department heads & their bosses that make the decisions.

Ok not to flame but thats just really ignorant to say that about Devs particularly if you include Programmers into that portion.   Not one game designer or programmer that I know would ever just  do a job for a wage!   You pratically give up everything to work hard and long and alot.   Its true the upper ups have the say on when certain things are decided but they don't do it randomly even if it seems like it.  

   I dont' think I've ever played a mmo that didn't have a million and one problems when it launched including WOW which still has several!  Its the nature of programming.  Fix one thing or add one thing and it somehow breaks another. 

I have a hard time seeing AoC doing well, the mature rating is bound to hurt it in the long run atleast in the US since there's already this huge war going on every other day over Mature rated games availability to minors.  Adding an online feature to it and since alot of today's parents never check ratings and then complain when their kid gets something they shouldn't.

WAR is going to be big.   I can't speculate if its going to be a WoW smasher but I think its going to put a hurt on WoW.

I can't speculate on Vanguard at all though I am certaintly interested in it.  I get really tired of shallow wow cloning mmo's.

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Originally posted by ste2000
I respect your views as a D&D player, and I understand why you may like DDO.

It is very true that Turbine has done a great job in translating the Paper game in the Pixel version, but the problem is they probably did it a bit too well.

This game as it is, can appeal only to people like you, who wants to play an electronic version of the original D&D.
But it doesn't appeal to the masses, not even a portion of it.
Most people who used to play D&D PnP has evolved, and now prefers to play MMORPG (like myself).
I see the PnP like a limitation, and copying the same limitations of PnP on a videogame is stupid and defeat the idea of videogames itself.

In videogames you are supposed to do more things compared of what you did in PnP.
In the PnP version you had to play in a restricted area (the board) and use lots of fantasy in creating the right atmosphere in your head.
In videogames you have the advantage of graphic 3D and the possibility to explore wonderful worlds created for you by the devs, worlds that the players can explore and immerse themselves in.
But what Turbine does? They stick with the dungeons, with no world to explore, only because D&D PnP was played in dungeons.
I think that's plain stupid.

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Maybe its a difference in experience but I still love to play PnP because the people you sit around and play with are atleast friendly and not a bunch of 10 year old jack *** know it alls.  How can you say your supposed to do more in computer games then PnP games? Videogames no matter how many options you might have especially MMO's are LINEAR! 

 Granted the setting DDO uses is restricted in the exploration department but in a  real game of PnP D&D with a  GOOD Dungeon Master you can wander off all you want you just have to expect there to be consquences.  I mean in what MMO game have you been able to walk into a tavern knock someone around and get thrown out by security? NONE!  In what MMO can you go break into someone's house and rob them?  In what MMO do your actions really have consquences in the setting around you? None of them.  A good PnP game is all about actions, reactions, and consquences none of which any MMO game really offers.   Sure you can run up and peeve off enemy guards and get yourself killed but thats pretty much it in most MMO games.

 You get far more options in PnP than you will ever get in any online game unless you have a DM thats never DM'd before or just a really shitty one that doesn't let you go outside the story he's running (i've never met any that did this, course that might be why my friends and I had alot of mishap at times).  Not that this is a downside to MMO's because I do love them but you can't go and say "Oh most PnP'ers now play MMO's because thast not true any real PnP fan still plays religiously.

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Originally posted by ironore
I really don't understand all the finer points but I was hoping someone could offer some insight as to the problem of tracking the hit points, health, strenght, dex, intellegence, smithing skill, pottery skill, farming skill, etc. etc. of thousands of NPCs as well as thousands of players on a server (connection speeds aside).  Would programming language be prohibitive in the tasks needed to perform and track so many calculations in a vast world?  

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I applaud this article!  The sole focus on graphics in alot of games is killing innovation in the game community. 

Although I personally dislike UO its not because of graphics, its because of nightmares I still have of intense lag and finding myself dead from either a player or a monster and the worthless expansion that just threw down more land for building and nothing else.  Although I do miss the extreme flexibility one could have with their ever changing character.

Someone stated that ideas are cheap and just some code, well for all your pretty graphics its takes tons of code and art to produce thus upping the cost which means we pay more and more.  You can't just make a model and slap it into a game without writing the code that puts the pretty model on the screen.

(to the person who suggested updating UO to a 3D game) The amount of money and time and not to mention sheer destructrion of code to rewrite an entire game to update its graphics from its current state in the case of UO would effectively destroy its community if not bankrupt the game itself.   You'd be taking ages old code and basically throwing it out you can't simply Turn a game like UO into a 3D mega game which is why they scrapped a project that would do that.  UO's community btw is still quite rather large.  A game's community doesn't have to be WOW sized in order to make money.

And while I do enjoy a game that has beautiful graphics on my expensive computer whats the point in paying all that money for a game that looks pretty but has no substance at all.  

It'd be nice if more games came out on the PC that had good graphics but were focused more on game play and story (or some sort of substance).

I've played plenty of free mmo's or ones that are atleast inexpensive to play  and while they're graphics are nothing fantastic the game works, the world is interesting, and its something different.  They dont' get a fair chance against people who see graphics and nothing else.  Though alot of these "graphic whores" are the same ones that complain the game is boring, the game is to short, or this mechanism just doesnt' work.  Well they'd have more time to focus on those things if there wasnt' a huge focus on how many pixels, vertices, and resolution they can pump out of a system.

I'm not normally a super WOW supporter but Blizzard did do something right.   Their game is somewhere between middle to high ground graphics wise and there's enough substance to keep players interested.  It'd be nice if there were more games designed this way on the market.   

If your going to vote on a game vote on the overall  game not just its graphics because some games are Pretty...and simply Awful (Horizons anyone? Star Wars Galaxies?)