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All Posts by Graey

All Posts by Graey

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214 posts found
Originally posted by Brenics
I know someone out there is saying I Told YOU SO! Brad is someone you just can't trust.

Dude...I was thinking that same thing. I mean I remember Vanguard...and even then there was a lot of you can't trust this guy. To hear he even got another chance to do the same shit...Idk, I had a feeling when I read the KS didn't do so well it was going to go nowhere but not to this level. can everyone please not give this guy another chance.

Originally posted by Reizla
Originally posted by DeaconX
I know you get extra points for your stats with the top tier purchase - is this pretty negligible or do stats seem to actually matter, even if just a few points?

In the beginning of the game it does matter. The +3 is quite a lot then. Right now I'm a level 21 magic user with over 80 INT. That +3 doesn't really matter on those levels. I think around level 10 that +3 was already close to worthless (but at least you have a nice cloak :p)

Hey question for you...your a magic user. Do you have any problems dealing damage. Reason I ask, I picked I want to call it witchcraft as well as I think necromancy and I forgot the other one. My spells just don't seem to sink up just right. I'm level 16 atm and Just don't feel the synergy between my choices. I know it's something I'm doing wrong personally just not sure which talent trees to change around.


Also I was thinking of going melee and forgoing the magic atm. The only reason I'm even attempting magic is I wanted to be able to summon that one pet for like 90 seconds lol at what level 50.

Originally posted by expresso
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Pretty silly decision if you ask me.

Jean-Luc your a great star fleet captain, the best IMHO but your flying mounts killed the game for me, I still played sure but the sense of adventure evaporates the moment you can skip over who area's, sure I didn't have fly and I didn't but it also ment blizzard could not pace their content or have any mystery in the game.

You know, I'm not disagreeing with you perse...but what I don't get is why do people who don't want flying in the game using the it ruins the immersion just you know...not use flying mounts.?

Doesn't that seem more logical to just for the sake of immersion as you say not use the mounts.

The way they explained it, it varies. If for instance you are doing a quest type thing and one of the quest parts is to gather materials...then it can go one of two ways. first scenario you do the quest line and  the castle gets built, second scenario you do not gather materials or you do not defend the mobs attacking the castle and it doesnt get built and thats how it stays. It depends on each server as well. So to answer your point...certain things can be permanently destroyed but I think main places like freemarch or something like that you can not. However some castle off in the distance you can probably destroy it and have it not come back ever. At least that is what I got from the interviews and game explanations. How they are going to pull this not sure. We will see when landmark hits this holiday season.
Originally posted by shakermaker0

Apologies if this has been asked/addressed before.


Can anyone tell me what the end game is? PvP, raiding etc?

They do not yet have PVP implemented as of yet. However I do think they are patching that in. Not sure when though.

I know they have raiding in as well, not sure how advanced that is though.

Dungeons as well are in there.


I would say visit the lodestone forums to get a general idea of what is in game as well as talk to players that are still playing the game.


Here is a link:

Originally posted by Voqar

So fates.  Are all very generic and could not be any easier.  Kill, collect, move with the zerg, do enough damage to get credit, repeat.  Boring.  Simple.  Boring.  Zero tactics.  Zero strategy.  Zero grouping - just zerg on.  A soloists wet dream - easy xp without lifting a finger.


In the old days of MMORPGs we had camp and grind. It was pretty miserable.  But back then you couldn't solo - it would take you years to cap solo because the xp was so poor.  You had to group.  You camped somewhere and pulled mobs.  Repeat a billion times and months later you were at the level cap.  Not that sophisticated.  But you did have to group.  And in order to group, you had to NOT be a dick, because nobody except other dicks wants to group with dicks.  You had to know how to play somewhat, because most sane people don't want to group with morons either.  Since you were grouped all the time and weren't served xp on a platter you would sometimes socialize while grouping.  You met people.  You chatted in group (vs spewing idiocy in public chat).  Community happened.  You saw the same people regularly.  You formed bonds.  You experienced things together.


Now.  We have a new kind of camp and grind.  Fates are great xp, decent money, and most importantly, seals.  So now people either sort of group up and migrate from fate to fate, or, people just pick a spot in the middle of an area and everybody just sits there.  Staring.  Maybe chatting in guild or something.  Watching the map.  Waiting for the next fate to spawn.  BOOM, POP, OMG it's been TWO FUCKING MINUTES AND A FATE FINALLY SPAWNED - ALERT THE ZERGLINGS!  So the locust horde moves to the fate, mows it down with zero strat, zero tactics, zero threat to anybody except the low level leaches who deserve to die repeatedly anyways, and..repeat.  No social element.  No real group.  No threat.  Just piles of xp and loot for doing the most mindless and mindlessly easy task to ever exist in an MMORPG.  Well, delivering X to an NPC 10 feet away is easier, but only barely.


It's a joke.  It's the solo ez-moders wildest wet dreams.  It's being handed the world on a platter just for showing up.  And it is so incredibly boring.


The old school camp and grind was pretty routine, and you HAD to do it for weeks/months to level.  But at least you met people and if you weren't on your game, you died, the group died, you lost xp (xp loss on death in those games).


In the FFXIV, this neo camp and grind is just one small sliver away from just giving players XP and loot every 5 minutes on a timer just for logging in.  Fate camping is a braindead exercise in going thru the most minimal of motions every few minutes to collect xp and loot.  I don't see how Yoshi the anti-stresser could make anything any more dumbed down and boring without just giving you exercise for breathing oxygen.



I was very excited about this game. I uninstalled it around two days ago after having killed ifrit. There were 3 things that turned me away.


1. The way the characters run, walk, and overall something about the way the characters interact with the area. I felt no reason to care about their plight, etc. I don't know Its final fantasy I guess I was expecting so much more.


2. Combat- I like the flash but there is no substance. I was a 22 or 23 conj. I had what 3 skills maybe that did damage and 2 skills that had support. There are only 50 levels. It just feels like I didn't have a lot skills. 20 levels of spamming that same skill over and over with nothing to replace it...sheesh! I wanted to actually be a healer in this game, and healing is actually quite fun and not to tiring. But it comes with a price. Just feels like I honestly feel repetitive and shallow as a class. Also I wanted to be a summoner but when I saw the summons that was a turn off as well. They should have varying degrees of summons.


3. Fates- Yes I agree. I understand grinding mind you, fates, dungeons, mobs, repeatable quests in other games. However I dislike them with a passion. I love doing quests mind you. I just hate doing the same one over and over again. I dislike fates because they just seemed to e tacked on to give you the illusion you are doing something. Instead they should be few and far between that build up like Rifts portals that have multiple steps, or in GW2 where a event quest leads to an even bigger one. They also should be a tad harder so players can get to them and affect the zone.


Right now if you stand back and look at this game most will understand this is a flavor of the month type game. Which for me is sad since I really really love FF. There just is really no substance to this MMO. It's better than Neverwinter, and GW2 but only slightly. Not better than Rift, Wow, EQ2, FF11. However I can see why people will play it as its new, etc. Some will like it and there is no problems with that.


I just want constructive dialog. Hopefully things will change a bit and become more indepth with this game. However given the track record of all developers in MMOs they rarely change from the norm. So...yeah.


Oh do keep one thing in mind. Wildstar dev spoke of going up against a game like wow, only with the content in place when their game launches with as much content as WOW has at this present moment. To me that is one of the best ideas I have heard since playing MMOs.

We are content locusts. FF14...people should not be leveled cap in any class right now. None. I say Minimum 2 weeks of grinding before you are level capped.


So I think I'll continue playing WOW and Rift until Wildstar comes out. Will try EQnext as well as ESO. However I'll keep my characters and keep updated on FF14 until a different time.



Originally posted by BadSpock

Individual zones feel plenty big.

Comparable to the size of say Barrens in WoW (pre-Cata) or one of the larger zones in GW2.

Load times are fast, even on PS3 I've never been upset by the load times between zones.

Exploration is more about finding the nooks and crannies in each zone, not slogging across miles of open (and mostly empty) terrain.

I remember the massive, open zones (worlds) in a game like SWG - I'd take FFXIV:ARR zone design any day.

Travel is convenient when you want it to be, but not cheap. Hoof'n it is a reasonable time investment.

Once you get airship pass the world does open up as you can visit each region at your leisure and access any class you want.

Getting quests to unlock dungeons and having to travel to a dungeon's entrance before unlocking it in the Duty Finder is a nice touch.

I was worried about content scarcity after the amount of available quests just completely fell off after around 14/15, but you get a huge chunk of EXP and story including dungeons to drive you through to 20 - lots and lots more quests open up after 19.

Hope to get my mount soon, just hit 20 last night - still have to fight Ifrit and go unlock Halatali.

So much content, so much to do in each zone and access to every class on one toon... yeah, I'd say the game opens up quite a bit once you spend some time in Eorzea.

Considering we are exploring one section of one continent out of 3 on the planet, lots and lots of room to expand and grow in future patches/expansions.

I have to disagree to a point on your post.

From what I played while the zones do seem a good size something feels off about them. I do like the part about finding the dungeon first before going into it. However as it stands I do not like getting in those dungeons without communication.

The questing system is a way. Its designed to level those initial classes up in every continent. Everything seems almost to easy to do. Airship, choco..although I know it costs 2k seals. Unlocking the jobs and leveling them. I think you need more skills as well.

I do like the leveling everying on one toon, but I am curious to see how that's going to work quest wise, unless they want you to leve everything. Don't get me wrong I see what you're seeing I just don't think it will be viable long term.

I think in MMOs there should be a balance between hard and easy content. I don't think this game strikes that balance quite right. Even group content seems easy. A bit to easy and that's where I see the problem. Granted people will complain about not having something now...choco mount for instance, but when you get that thing in a day or two of grinding...something is off. Wow seems to level at a slower pace...or perhaps more meaningful pace...idk.

This game kind of reminds me of GW2.  A bit to shallow in the combat and group environment. though I do like the group content options.

Originally posted by naZchoco

i don't think it's even going to take a couple months.

i was on the bandwagon for this game - solely because they took a failed product and turned it into something better.



Now I'm level 30 with a couple of other jobs leveled up a bit of the ways and have my choco / crafted / done 5+ dungeons, etc..



And i'm getting pretty sad. The world is tiny. So small that they had to fit half of the zone as a low level, the other as the high level counterpart.


Not only that but like someone above mentioned you can port from box cube to box cube and see the whole world in about 5 minutes or so, give or take.


The dungeons up to 30 have been way too easy. The questing has been also. The mobs to fight also. 

I've heard the advance jobs are simple as hell to get. :(

The primal battles are simple from my level 50 guildies opinions.


Countless people are already maxed with full AF and it was released yesterday ( yes yes i know, open beta and early access)...



What happened to the world feeling so big in final fantasy games? Like taking an airship to kazham and feeling like you are on a whole new continent. Or running to jeuno without choco and it felt like hours - not to mention the other final fantasy games that took hours on end to explore.


What happened to crafting making you feel like a boss when you gained .1 out of 100 levels... The crafting on here is .. somewhat fun. But easy. Super easy. So easy people are leveling every craft to max.


What happened to having hard mobs to fight? Or AF armor taking months to get and not a matter of hours froma  simple quest..



Ah - fan bois don't flame me. I'm a huge FF fanboi. And I will continue playing this because I love FF. But damn am i a sad panda right now after reflecting on the game.



Are you serious about the AF armor? You know I was looking at the zones and thinking where have I seen ths...GW2 damn. Yeah I have this nagging feeling that I won't be playing this all that long either. My girl asked me the first night I played it waht I thought. Don't get me wrong I love FF but idk...this just seems rushed and uninspiring. 7.5 and passable. I do agree if people are already maxed level and have their mounts, AF gear already that is a problem. Some are already 30+ in my guild. It hasn't been a week and I"m not counting beta. I will keep and eye on the game. but I don't think I'll actually stick around to be subbed to it.

Kind of sad actually. I really wanted to like this game but I'm not playing another shallow MMO.

GW2, Neverwinter just can't see myself doing it again.

Originally posted by time007

I spent the day running to blue circles and smacking things with a stick, over and over to level 40 glory!!

I also spent that time dying surrounded by other players with no rezzes.


MMO's have gone backwards a bit in this regards, in terms of FATE's and the way ppl treat one another BUT, a lot has to do with the rinse and repeat instant gratification crap that came along with MMO's going mainstream.  Why rez someone when they can just release and come back in 5 seconds?  There is very little penalty for death, so why rez a comrade who died right next to you? (during and after fights, corpses just don't get rezzed)  Better to just summon your mount, ride over them, so you can wait in town for the next FATE right?  Most of the times I see ppl left for dead, there isn't even another FATE active, ppl just ride right over corpses. Don't get me started on heals, and don't say its about a team etc.  I played DAOC for years, and ppl routinely rezzed anyone in sight in pvp and pve, regardless of team.

But in that game, if you released you lost a ton of exp and had a long way to run back, but here there is no penalty, SO, I think the devs should have more IN DEPTH & Complex multi step FATES.  There are some multi steppers, but most are just one and done, so no one cares if their realm mate, regardless of being grouped, dies, cuz the FATES are over in 1-1.5 minutes.  Hell if you get there at 14:05, your 30 seconds too late and its over.


So, make FATES multi step and make them last longer.  Give exp or something for rezzing ppl. Make death have a bigger penalty. 

Other than the FATE stuff though, this game is cool and im flying through it, FATEs + storyline.  Probably going to do cooking once I ding 50

Sidenote:  People in pre-wow MMO's used to even ask their group mates, "oh hey this guy needs a rez can you come to me?" so non rezzers would help out too.

Man OP I was just thinking the same thing. To be honest the dungeons are the one thing I really wanted to try in this game. I'm a CNJ..grinding to become a WHM. Honestly after Sastra, and Tam Tara...I don't think I'll sub.  So why do you ask...well in Tam Tara there was basically no talking, I mean no tank telling you what not to pull, no puller, no communication at all. We just went down  the hall killing things. That's it. Granted I like the idea of healting. But honestly I click what 1-3 buttons the whole time. protect at the start, cure, and that party cure..oh and switch sometimes to cleric stance and dps a bit with stone and areao.

You know how in other MMOs if you say you haven't been there before. Someone in the party usually tells you what to expects or how to generally defend against the bosses. Okay the bosses...the spawn adds, they have a telegraph. You usually have to kill the adds then go back to the boss. Rinse...repeat.

I think I'd rate this game someowhere around a 7.5. Not bad but definitely not a long lasting experience and I loved FF11. I was expecting more of that where grouping seemed to matter. I'll prob continue on for a bit longer, however honestly it has that shallow feeling like just has something missing. Granted they do have some interesting features that I really like. However I can't see myself grinding all the way up to 30 with just 3 or so damaging abilities.

I will say this. This is def not worth $12 a month. Not even a bad game but it should def not get higher than say an 8/10. Glaring missteps along the way keep this from becoming a great game.

Now I'll wait a bit for Wildstar, perhaps go back to Rift or hold out for EQ landmark, and next. But Idk on FF14ARR.  the low amount of skills kills it for me. Seems even lower than GW2. I know you can level other jobs but...hmm.

Originally posted by Isarii
If you've read this far into the thread then I know you're interested, and you probably know it as well.  So what are you waiting for?  Come apply and find your place in our community.



This post got me. At first I was hesitant to apply but you do make a valid point. I've been looking for a guild with a bit of honor and lore behind it. I'll check your guilds website out and see what it's all about.

you know i just thought of something.

people are saying that GW2 is a zergfest meaning everyone just shoots and that's it.

Now let's take WOW, RIFT for example...the tank holds aggro and you just that not the same thing?

Although I disliked the GW2 model simply because the characters just seemed to shallow. So I can see what they are saying just thought I'd point out the similarities of both stances.

OP I agree with mostly everything you stated.

I thought they said there would be a trinity in the game. I will reserve judgement until I see some more combat action and character details.

Also far the worse thing in that game is that characters did not matter. I think combat was the factor that contributed to that. MMO's are about exploration. You need to have a party for that. The harder stuff is in the dungeons that are deeper inside and require team work and effort to get to.

Hm...I liked Elder scrolls MMO combat so perhaps EQn will have the same style.

If it is GW2 style where there is no tank generating threat then I'll probably just stick to making things for people. GW2's whole character set-up was destroyed by that one implimentation.

Also I like the idea of exploring to find all 40 classes. I'm curious how the skills will play out in the long run and I like the idea of mixing skills...its like Final Fantasy 14's system where you only need one character and they can play all classes. Instead in EQ you can switch skills out and be say a Warrior that can heal himself albeit not as easy as a Cleric could heal themselves I'm sure.

Originally posted by lizardbones


Originally posted by Graey

Originally posted by DMKano Instead of ranting about it - I created an amazing MSpaint sketch to illustrate my point. So how will it work - they said Everything is destructible - so can we just go straight for the BOSS? Bypass upper caves and bypass lower cave trash and named too? Have devs addressed this yet?


Firstly let me say, "that's Picasso" right there...brilliant!

Secondly not everything will be destructible. Yes I know the one guy said in the video it would be was updated that not every place would be so.

The example they gave was Freemarch in which if everything was destructible then most players...would just ransack that city and try to destroy it. Instead I think mostly what they are referring to is landmark stuff, unless of course they deem some of it as indestructible. Also certain things will respawn at times. But to further answer your question yes just like in the video you could bypass all the other mobs and go straight to the boss. Now since there are no levels I don't see what the issue would be however taking your graphic into account I think the areas would change so that you could not map out where the boss is located.

I got the impression that the underworld was not static. You couldn't mine in a different spot and get to the same boss. If you mined in a different spot, you would get a different set of caverns, leading to a different boss or a different story.

But if you did by pass the caverns, and they allow you to bypass the caverns, then the caverns and the boss are not necessarily tied together. People would go through the caverns for one thing, but go after the boss for something else. There might be other classes available in the caverns, but there would be resources available from the boss that you couldn't get anywhere else. Something like that.


Or going straight to the boss is exponentially harder because of something you didn't do or didn't collect by going through the caverns.


Some of the places will be static. They can not be destroyed What those places are i'm not sure. I'm using one of the capital cities as the example because they said certain things can not be deemed destructible because if they did then people would do nothing but try and destroy it.


However things made in landmark can be destroyed, however if they deem certain things are really good those things might too become indestructible, think a really nice castle, dungeon, building etc.


Now to take it even further that demo we saw I don't think that whole mountain area is destructible just certain things around there, which could lead to a cave in and then that cave in would lead to you falling into a place below. Now the place will probably always be there however the hole might be in a slightly different place.

Also based on how we attack the enemy AI they might move, get more enemies or come after us first. At least that is what I got from that video.

This is a great discussion however let me remind you that the way they said it and the way we are thinking in our heads are probably leaps and bounds on what the final product will be like.

Let's hope I'm wrong lol.

Originally posted by DMKano

Instead of ranting about it - I created an amazing MSpaint sketch to illustrate my point.

So how will it work - they said Everything is destructible - so can we just go straight for the BOSS? Bypass upper caves and bypass lower cave trash and named too?

Have devs addressed this yet?


Firstly let me say, "that's Picasso" right there...brilliant!

Secondly not everything will be destructible. Yes I know the one guy said in the video it would be was updated that not every place would be so.

The example they gave was Freemarch in which if everything was destructible then most players...would just ransack that city and try to destroy it. Instead I think mostly what they are referring to is landmark stuff, unless of course they deem some of it as indestructible. Also certain things will respawn at times. But to further answer your question yes just like in the video you could bypass all the other mobs and go straight to the boss. Now since there are no levels I don't see what the issue would be however taking your graphic into account I think the areas would change so that you could not map out where the boss is located.

Originally posted by dejoblue

It feels like the very first time?


Haha, jokes aside, with this whole world that changes, and no end game and progression of your character basically forever, and no feathers or ! or ? guiding you everywhere, this is going to have me exploring...I think I am going to get lost in the game and I think it will be like the first time.

Infatuation? Hmm Isnt it better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all?


SWTOR is that you?....





How do you guys think you will feel when you finally get into the game proper?

Honestly it depends on how they pull it off. I mean the thought of searching for 40 classes.....that are not always found in the same place is great. The thought of exploring things, building things, that might not be there a month later is great as well. At this point I have no gripes about the game. Also I love the idea of creating your own stuff to hopefully be put in game and I will be there day 1 to do so. Only one gripe I have and that's I don't have a lot of friends so I will need to find some mature people to go explore with.

Good Morning all,


OP, I'm not sure that I understand the comment about middle aged people and not playing games. I'm middle aged and honestly I love playing video games. I have all the other dynamics you spoke of as well and so do my friends who all have jobs, family etc to support so I think that comment should be reevaluated perhaps.

I do however agree to an extent on your take on graphics. Firstly yes they are all cartoons, but I think what most people are angry about is that this game will not allow them to fully immerse themselves into the game world due to the colorful effects of the game pulling them away from their character and environment.


Rift, Oblivion, Witcher all have this color palette of greys, dark greens, realistic life simulating color effects that in some instances can actually make it so you are in the world. Couple that with a character creation screen that lets you create a character that looks just like you and it then becomes even more immersive.

So then we come to ever Everquest Next. Frankly let me be honest I thought the art style was nice, but I'm an artist so I appreciate the hard work that goes into something. You can tell the artists love what they do. So moving on if I could I would ask the devs why they chose that art style instead of something closer to say Oblivion and Witcher. I respect their decision and I will play this game along with Wild star, FF14 and Elder scrolls.

Personally I think people need something to attack. I'm serious if EQ Next came out with the exact graphics we are referring to people would then complain about something else. Firstly its a free game so why not at the least check it out first and see how it goes before making that judgement.

Originally posted by Vannor

Yeh, every 3 months a city might be destroyed because players failed to defend it.. and that is going to be the ongoing content.. just like the living story in GW2. It might be done better in EQN, we don't know yet. I can't get over the graphics though... I'll try it, but only out of curiosity.. even with an amazing dynamic series of rallying calls going on, it looks like the clones wars version of everquest. I'll never get over it.. I thought EQ had cartoon graphics in the first place but with what they showed I was like... waaaaaaa? Plus, it's not even a sandbox. EQ landmark is a sandbox.

But EQ landmark is part of EQ next.....

Originally posted by MindTrigger

You sound like a used car salesmen in a $50 suit.

The stylized graphics in EQNext allow for the constructable / destructable world, among other things.  I'll take those new features over the same ancient themepark crap from the likes of ESO any day.

I applaud you man, but you are talking to a brick wall. Not sure what is up with people but this whole EQ thing is being blown out of proportion. The OP is not listening to you, instead like a lot of people they are flaming the game and hyping another game which both are wrong btw since neither are out at the moment. I never see anyone whose views change actually come to this damn forum and type that they were wrong. This site isn't even used for discussion anymore but just gossip, and cantankerous moods over the tiniest of things.


How can you seriously be angry that they chose that graphics style OP, when you see all the other things that are being implemented as well...I mean seriously. If EQ did not change anything and just used say the graphics of Elder scrolls I wonder how many people would be okay with that. I just don't get it any more, its no longer about the wonder and amazement of gaming its just how much you can berate the next game and hype the next one after ad infinum.


Man sometimes I really hate this hobby.

Originally posted by Rydeson

     I once years ago did a spreadsheet on a new combat method for MMO's and it fell on deaf ears.. It wasn't anything too complex and was more inline to logic, while bringing the playerbase together as you indicated..  I don't have the exact numbers available but general speaking I'll give you an example:

  • Every character started off with a "to hit" percentage of 20%
  • Each time they leveled, they would gain 1% point, so by the time they made 50th level, their "to hit" chance is 70%..
  • Various items would increase OR decrease that percentage point based on issues like ..  Heavy Iron sword would give a bonus on damage, but take a to hit penalty..
     Combat was more forgiving so that newbies could actually play with vets in any level.. Sure that newbie would be missing alot of shots, but they could still join in on the fun.. I have always tried to find ways to bring communities together, not split them apart.. Shouldn't MMO be more inclusive, not exclusive in nature?

I see a problem with this, not many veteran players are going to want to include a new player in veteran played areas just because that new person is not as effective as they could be.


example: If a person never shot a gun before then goes into a tactical area and is given a gun how effective is that person. That is how I view low versus high level or new versus veteran players. Instead perhaps do what we do in real life...practice and over time you just get better...or use the system that eve online uses and kinda accumulate your knowledge over time as it were.

Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I'll ask the question then since my previous posts didn't get answers...

How do you make a game that can be played with a PS4 controller and yet has a ton of skills requiring a ton of buttons to press?

And to be honest, dumbed down gameplay is my worst worry about this game since I learned it would be for console too.

I don't know, however I do remember playing FF11 on my what PS2 and I used a controller for that. I also had a keyboard hooked up to it as well to type so it is doable. I had no issues playing that game, but then again I'm not sure how the action bars/combat set-up will be for this game so I think it's a wait and see.

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