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All Posts by Scrogdog

All Posts by Scrogdog

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332 posts found

I haven't been active in an MMO for a couple of years now.  I don't think much of the recent releases, no offense to those that enjoy them, MMOs just aren't made for me anymore.


Still, I do lurk here occasionally, you know, just in case.


I won't be kickstarting this project, that's for sure, but no harm keeping an eye on it.  You know, just in case. :)


Got nothing to lose.

An interesting discussion.

Yeah, I'm an old school guy from EQ, SWG and Vanguard.  But before that, I started in gaming playing board wargames.  Not the stuff that a lot of kids play in video games, recreation of historical battles.

With the death of the MMO genre, I have returned to the board game side.  What I found was pretty amazing as board games are now a much more diverse hobby than it was in the 70s. Many tastes are catered to, not just the wargamers. In addition, you don't need investors to get a board game design out there, so there are gamers/designers making games that are passionate about doing so rather than basing a given design on box sales, marketing spreadsheets and mass market appeal.  Not that that is a bad thing necessarily, it's just simply no longer diverse as that is ALL that we get now in most cases on the video side.

I'm sure many people would not care less about not being able to buy a classical recording because all that's for sale is Justin Beiber and Madonna. But I would. Sure, Rush is not mainstream or the most popular, but I can still buy thier recordings.

I lived in the day when even video games could say "designed lovingly by gamers for gamers" and it was actually true!

You want socializing and RP and gaming all at once?  Board games, my friends, board games.

Google Board Game Geek.

Leave MMOs with the younger set, half of whom couldn't tell a great game if it whacked them off the noggin. :)

Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Dissolution

In realty, the people who do not continue to play and.or subscribe are the ones rebuking them.

I think an additional fact is that although many people talk about how much we liked the older concepts in games, the fact is that there is still an appeal, albeit a different appeal to the new model being developed as well. If not for what it is now, but where it is going.

There is alot of crying about where the genre is, where it is going etc. etc. The biggest issue is that there have been bits and pieces of really different and interesting concepts in gaming from multiple sources. Big name and Indie alike. Most of us have noticed those glimpses of potential. However, alot of people have different opinions of what they like. Now they want one MMO that has all those pieces of what THEY liked all wrapped up into one game.

For every gamer that likes a vast world they have to run in with no fast travel, there is a gamer that will cry about it and threaten to quit. For every gamer that likes a death penalty there is a gamer who will cry about it and threaten to quit. And on and on.

How could you really ever please this genre in this day and age? It would be great if games focused on a market inside the genre (i.e. punishing/challenging mmorpgs) but the fact is that whenever these concepts are implemented into games these days the QQ flag raises so high that they eventually ease up on it.

I could be wrong and maybe someone will hold the line and stick to a challlenging concept, but I doubt it. They would more likely release it and then relent at the backlash in fear of a dying playerbase like most of the rest.


its actually alot more simple than you might think for a single game to cater to those different groups of people. You see, it really comes down to the fact that there's 2 major different groups of mmo players, carebears and hardcores. The hardcores want the end game raids to stay hard, not nerfed just cause only 1 guild has beaten it so far, they want to try and try and feel that rush of accomplishment when they finally beat it. The carebears want to kill the final boss the first night the raid is released.


The simple way to cater to both is to have carebear servers, and hardcore servers. The hardcore servers will be what the game was meant to be, the carebear servers would have nerfs to dungeon/raid bosses, increased exp, items given to them for absolutely no reason like using the dungeon finder tool and killing the boss(as if you wouldn't have done so already). If dev's would only follow that approach, both sides would be happy, sure there'll still be a few issues that others will have complaint, like the combat mechanics but you'll always have haters no matter what you do, but this way will at least minimize the haters.


Hmm, that's not a bad idea on paper, but I wonder how practical it is to ask the devs to maintain two seperate sets of code?


Doesn't seem as simple as "pvp" or "normal" servers.  Or in the case of EQ's legacy servers (I think that's what they are called) the code already existed in tested form.

Originally posted by Dissolution
I cant blame them at all.

I don't think anyone blames them; as I said, it is simply a natural limitation with regards to this particular form of entertainment.


As far as I am concerned, when the driving force and inspiration behind a game is what a marketing spreadsheet tells you it is, we've more or less lost our collective way. :)

You're right.  I probably should have said less gameplay complexity.


Not everyone likes chess,  but it is still a good thing that the game is around. :)

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scrogdog
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scrogdog
Originally posted by Sythion

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.


I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.


And you can still play the old games. Last time I checked EQ is still running.

Heck, you can still play the old text based adventure games too. So what is the problem?

The problem is that we need NEW games of many different flavors!

As I can also get NEW musical classical works if I want.

We *do* have new games of many different flavors. There are more settings, more gameplay style (from MMORPG, to MMOFPS to MMORTS) than in the UO/EQ days.


I think there is less gameplay styles as everything needs to be designed as a cross-platform product.


I'll hold up the Elder Scrolls as a perfect example.  It became less interesting and diverse as game play was modified for consoles.  Now in the latest version, some abilites simply no longer exist.  Everything is simplified.


To me, less choice does most certainly not mean more fun.  Exactly the opposite in fact.

Originally posted by Unlight Yes, I want a hybrid game. I want the developers to continue to do what the are supposed to be good at and let me carve out my own, personal niche in it.

I agree.  I think that's why I liked SWG so much.


It was a hybrid in my opinion.  It was a sandbox that contained themeparks. :)

Originally posted by Dissolution
Originally posted by Scrogdog
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scrogdog
Originally posted by Sythion

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.


I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.


And you can still play the old games. Last time I checked EQ is still running.

Heck, you can still play the old text based adventure games too. So what is the problem?

The problem is that we need NEW games of many different flavors!

As I can also get NEW musical classical works if I want.


The problem is, most games with the polish people expect as standard now are backed by a big money company for its funding. So when a dev pitches " Hey, I would like to create a game based on concepts from a decade ago that will target a minority of the playerbase" what do you think the response is?


Sure.  I recognize this as a limitation. Nonetheless, the fact that most other forms of entertainment do not suffer the same fate is a slight against the industry in my opinion.


You don't need investors to write a book.  With today's technology one can make reasonably good musical recording in a home studio.  And some guy with a hand-held and using non-pros is going to get a mention at some artsy film festival.


To me that makes the current state of video games soulless.  To others it doesn't.  Which of course makes sense if one is going for mass market appeal.  Mass markets are BIG. :)


So, I'll keep an eye on things just in case.  But I'm back to boardgames now as they still offer marvelous diversity.  The way it works on that side is that people come up with a design, let others see and perhaps test it, then the game players themselves are asked to fund it.  If the goal is made, the game is printed and off we go!


Not a perfect system to be sure, but the bottom line is that board gaming, and to be sure most other forms of entertainment, offer the diversity that video games now lack for the most part.


Which is fine if you like the mainstream.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scrogdog
Originally posted by Sythion

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.


I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.


And you can still play the old games. Last time I checked EQ is still running.

Heck, you can still play the old text based adventure games too. So what is the problem?

The problem is that we need NEW games of many different flavors!

As I can also get NEW musical classical works if I want.

Originally posted by Sythion
Originally posted by Scrogdog


It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

Music changes too. I remember my father telling me about how much better the music was in the 60's and 70's, and I was like "Whatever, Smashing Pumpkins will be great forever!"

Of course, but the point is that you can still buy just about any available genre.


I don't think classical music is the highest selling nor any where near it.  Yet I can still obtain a copy of Gustav Holst's The Planets if I want.


Originally posted by Shadanwolf

I agree with every point in your post.For me that means not playing ANY mmog  at this time.


Yeah, me too.


But I still come here out of hope. :)


It's kind of interesting how this market has gone over the years.  Sure, I'm willing to admit that I'm no longer the target audience.


This is a limitation of the video game market; the inability to address a wide range of tastes.


It would be like the music industry offering ONLY Justin Bieber and then Beiber fans telling the rest of us that the world of music has passed us by.

Personally, I don't create female avatars because I role play.  As a guy, am I supposed to know how to RP a woman?

I don't really think I'd do a very good job!

In all my years of gaming I did make a female toon once; in Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, and then only because I felt that the movement while crouched looked effeminate. :)


Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

-Pete Townsend

OP,  you are not too old for gaming.  You are too old to further tolerate money grabbing pig developers and publishers.

That said, I'm happy to report to you that the joy of board gaming is quite alive and well and still caters to all tastes, complexity preferences and playstyles.

In fact, in the past decade or so, there has been a tremendous amount of innovation in systems and design.

Come and join the rest of us old farts that have mostly abandoned the souless world of "plugged in" gaming.

I guess we call it LoL for a reason. lol

The type of game or server being played on has little relevence to the issue in my mind.

Maintaining a sense of honer does not mean that you can't kill the enemy!  So then, it's a matter of style, right?

So, let's say you are playing in a FFA open world faction model and you see a player that is somewhere that he should not be.

What's your goal here?  Teach him a lesson?


Then flex in front of that person if you want lol and say; "you don't belong here.  You need another 10 to 15 levels before you have a chance of surviving.  You may go.  HOWEVER, I make this warning only once.  If I see you here again I will kill you swiftly and without dishoner because you have been warned".

If that person is smart, he'll go away.  Now he's out of the zone just as if you'd killed him!

In my mind, this is one of the reasons that cross server PUGs were the worst idea of all time.  Server repuatation means nothing anymore.

One of my favortite periods in history was WWI particularly because of the stories of flying aces.  It was the last age of chivilrous combat.   It was not unknown for a flight to come over enemy territory, with full risk of doing so (no white flags), to drop a wreath on the airfield of a fallen but RESPECTED opponent.

I know what you're thinking.  You silly boy, Scrog, you actually used the word RESPECT in this day an age.  You are a silly old man! :)

Sure, the age of chivalry is dead in modern warfare.  As well as in just about all other walks of life. 

Oh, and to those who say it's just a game... well, we use games and sports to teach sportsmanlike conduct, team play and other values to help our children through life.  How we relax says much about us as a culture.  I mean, if you have no respect in games, then I'd say it's likely that you also have no respect for others in anything that you do.  It's a character thing.

It's not illegal to be a complete effiing jerk!  So why not be one then, right?

If the premise of this topic were true, than I would not have moved back in to the board game end of the hobby (because that side would be in the same boat), which, by the way, STILL caters to all ages and all complexity tastes rather than the rather one-dimensional simplistic offerings of your average MMO today.

You don't see as many young folks at those types of stores or in gaming groups.  Mostly it's the older crowd that has fled back.

The 15 to 25 year olds are mostly off playing mind candy on consoles or PC. :)

Originally posted by BadSpock

Take off the nostalgia glasses, open your eyes to how truly wonderful many of the games out today really can be.

Well, I disagree with many of your points.  I've played a crapload of different MMOs and my interest has simply waned.

It's probably a combination of a couple of things.  One is, I would still contend that games are much less robust than they used to be.  It could be rose colored glasses, but what games are you playing that have actual GM events like EQ had once upon a time?  I'm also kind of taken aback at the amount of focus on combat to the exclusion of other things like crafting and socializing.  I was spoiled by SWG in that regard.

Even so,  I wouldn't go back to pre-CU SWG or pre-Kunark EQ.  Sure, they were great then, but they wouldn't be now.

Instead, what I'd really like is a new design and  game that used the same structure as SWG.  Non-combat class characters AND combat classes and complex multi-tiered crafting with player shops.  Also, a GOOD combat system layered on top of that (something SWG never had in any iteration).

But, yeah. I've considered your overall point as well.  Maybe I'm just sick of the whole unchanging genre to begin with.

Originally posted by terrant

The Fable series, the Fallout Series, the Elder Scrolls series...there are other examples but they tend to be more obscure.


The other thing also is that a lot of RPGs seem to be rather rigidly defined.  I tend to play games that aren't straight RPGs but have a lot of those elements (because I like choices.  Games that are only stories are, again,  sort of like watching TV or a movie - not exactly great GAMES imo).  Say something like X-Com UFO Defense where it was a serious bummer to lose a veteran squad member.  Or Jagged Alliance.  Or even a board game like Hornet: Carrier Operations.

Your characters are an integral part of the game.  However, it's a bit different than playing a game where "it's mini-me in there".

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