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All Posts by Uhwop

All Posts by Uhwop

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1631 posts found
Originally posted by spizz

You can be very much attached to the character. 

The game is not about items only, it is about survival. There are players out there who are alive since weeks ingame, if they die it is a tragedy for them.

It is your own decision how much you are attached to a character, for me permadeath exists since you invest a lot of time and work into your character to not to die. You advance in the game, but this is different from other games you played before.

 The last part is why I mentioned MO and DF, because it's not different. 

Convince me another way.  Direct me to a game that promotes permadeath as a feature of the game.

So what's wrong with DAoC that you need to play TESO for 3 faction pvp?

The OP seems reasonable, until someone points out that D3 is an online game, the same way that battlefield 1942 is an onine game, or Day of Defeat is an online game.

Even better.  I'm curious how many people play league of legend, and then say they won't play D3 because it's online only.  It's only rational to assume that the OP also made a post in the League of legend forums stating that they won't play it until it's got offline play.

Saying you want to play D3, but not until it has an offline mode, is the equivelant of soemone saying they refuse to play the new battlefield games because they have a single player campaing and offline play, just because the original games were strickly online.

D3 is an oline game.  Just because the previous games weren't doesn't mean that D3 is required to be offline as well. 

I do not understand this sense of entitlement that people have.  MMO's are not the only games designed to be played online, nor have they ever been.  Whether people like it or not, D3 is an online game; you've got to learn to live with that.

Originally posted by Callin

its not a huge deal but it does suck to have a character that is a few hours old and then lose the stuff and go back to square one.  

 This is the point I'm trying to make.

You're not worried about your character, you're worried about the items.  That's the point of full loot. 

Permadeath means you're not worried about the items, because there's an investment in the character that's been made and you don't want to lose that.  

You can actually get around the full loot part of DayZ by hiding items, of course you've got to hope someone doesn't stumble across your stash before you can remake a character, but as long as you can make another character and get back to your stash you haven't actually lost anything. 

Originally posted by Corehaven

Well its a FPS.  So no there's no character stats or anything like that. 

 

For this, the items are the character development and many as far as I know are not easy to get.  A good rifle or even a flashlight can be somewhat priceless at times.  Loosing all your stuff is a big deal as it can probably take hours to replace it.  I qualify that as perma death even though you may not. 

 

Because if you die you start over at the beginning with absolutely nothing.  What happens in old Nintendo games when you run out of lives?  Game over and you start over at the beginning.  Well here there is only one life.  You loose it?  You start over with nothing at the beginning.  Perma death. 

 So when you die the only thing you lose are items?

Isn't that the definition of a FULL LOOT system? 

How would that be any diffierent then if DF had you resurrect in a completely random location in the world when you died?  You lost the exact same thing in both games, items.  But because one game doesn't make you take a couple of seconds to remake a character one is permadeath and the other isn't?  I disagree, without any form of CHARACTER development, and character development isn't item collection, then the only thing you can lose are items and therefore it's only full loot.

 

Let me put it another way. 

I make a character, manage to collect a bunch of stuff, find some place out of the way and hide that stuff, then I die.  I remake the exact same character, go to were I hid a bunch of stuff to resuply myself.  The is no significant difference between what I just described and Mortal Online.

 

Again, this isn't a permadeath sucks thread.  It's a, there is no permadeath in a game that has no character development thread.  You're not attached to the character, you're attached to the items you collect.  It's the exact same thing in MO or DF, and in fact MO is harsher, because you can actually lose skills if you PK and then die.

Let me again put it another way.  If removing the need to create a new character doesn't change the fundimental penalty of death, then how is it permadeath?  If the modder made you spawn in a new plaace in the world every time you died, it wouldn't change anything that's already happening in the game.

If removing the need to make a new character doesn't actually alter the game in any way, I don't think it's really fair to call it permadeath.  It's attaching more significance to the mechanic then is deserving.

 

Or let me try it another way.  In a permadeath system, the threat of losing the character is supposed to be the driving force behind death.  What are you trying not to lose in DayZ?

Originally posted by exdeathbr
Originally posted by kanezfan

You want real perma death? You're really so hardcore that you believe it's a good game mechanic? OK then do this. Play a game, any game. Once you die, you never play the game again. You uninstall the game and never, ever play it again. That is true permanence. If you can just go and create a new toon, you're still playing the game. Yeah you'll have lost your stuff but you can get it back, you'll still be "alive."

Creating a new char is not ressurection. Its a new character, and so its realistic.

 You don't create a new character in DayZ, you make a new inventory.

When everyone pretty much looks the same, and there is no character development, the only thing you lost were items and the time needed to make the same character and enter the game again.

 

There was nothig realistic about seeing a game over screen in an atari or old NES game.  And no one ever got attached to the "character" in those games or called it permadeath because you had to start over from the beginning.

Originally posted by 5thofFikus
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by mrw0lf

That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.

Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.

Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.

 I don't think of DayZ as having permadeath, not sure why people even consider it as such.

It's full loot, with the need to remake your character.  You're just a walking inventory.

Without character development I don't see it as permadeath, the only thing lost are items.  The real test would be for them to put in some form of character development, and then see how much people enjoy it. 

But then it is also only a mod.  I don't think people are being fair with the whole, "Dayz proves that permadeath would work".  It doesn't.  It only shows that in a mod, were there is no character development, and therefore no real attachment to THAT character, people don't mind if they lose some items they may have scrounged.

FFA full loot pvp MMO's have a hard time attracting people to play them, throw in the ability to lose all character progress you've made and it would have even a harder time attracting players.

As a mod for a realatively cheap shooter simulater though, yeah it works fine.  But in no way does that translate into what people would accept in an MMO.

What it means is immersion is king.

 I'm almost certian that the point of my post was completely lost on you.

If the mod had you respawn in a random location when you died, it would be the EXACT SAME THING you're already doing, minus the need to remake a character. 

There is no permadeath in DayZ, it's only full loot.  Permadath implies you lose more then just items, you lose character progression or development.  When there is no character progression or development the only lost are items, and therefore it's ONLY full loot.

If the modder removed the need to make a new character, it would not change what is happening when you die.  You never lost a character, only the items you have.  The only thing that it's doing is making the time between dying and reentering the game take slightly longer; that's not permadeath, nor does it improve immersion in DayZ.

 

 

People aren't getting emails from blizzard about being hacked.  Those are phishing attempts.  Just because the link "looks legit" doesn't mean it is, there are ways around that.  This is the probably the most common way people get there account comprimised, it happened to, I'm not ashamed to admit it.  I had no idea at the time what was happening.

If you ever get an email from blizzard about your account being hacked or anything along that line, and that you need to visit blizzard to "verfiy" that it was hacked, you need to delete that email and CALL blizzard to verify that your account is ok or not.  Or in the least, open your browser, go to Bnet or WoW directly, enter your account info.  The first clue you'll get that your account is compromised, is you won't be able to log in. 

 

I do have an issue with Blizzards security though, it's the same issue I have with pretty much everyones security.  The email you get about a change of password, rarely ever requires you to actually verify that you changed the passworld.  More often then not the email is just tellin you it's been changed and to ignore it if you did change it.  They should require verification in the email if you change account info. 

 

So I follow the link like  an idiot, log into my account.  Few minutes later I get an email that my Bnet password was changed.  Odd, I didn't change it.   First and last time I ever clicked a link in a email "that blizzard sent me".

Other time I got hacked.  Again, my fault.  Used the same email and password as my WoW account on Curse. Curse got compromised, I thought nothing of it.  Unfortunately, that same password was used for my email.   Wouldn't you know it.  The same day my WoW account is a stolen, my email accounts password was also changed.

 

All the cool kids hate blizzard, why would anyone expect these people to admit that it was their fault.

DayZ isn't permadeath. 

If the guy that made the mod removed the need to have you remake the character after you died, to just having you spawn in a radom location in the world, it would be the exact same thing as you're experiencing now. 

I'm in no way making a statement about permadeath.  I'm only pointing out that there is no difference between making you recreate a character or having you respawn in a random location with the same character, because the only thing you're losing are items.

If it had some form of character development, then I would say that it's permadeath. 

Originally posted by mrw0lf

That's not a permadeath mechanic, that's just 2 servers with different death rulesets.

Imo on paper, many people who complain of permadeath haven't actually played a game with it. It's a prime example of many people not having a clue about rulesets and how mechanics actually play out in reality as opposed to what they conceive in their heads.

Look at the DayZ mod, that's a form of pdeath with ffa, fullloot, pvp and the reality of the mechanic is some of the most thrilling game play available, despite some of the most buggy assed gameing available people are still flocking to it.

 I don't think of DayZ as having permadeath, not sure why people even consider it as such.

It's full loot, with the need to remake your character.  You're just a walking inventory.

Without character development I don't see it as permadeath, the only thing lost are items.  The real test would be for them to put in some form of character development, and then see how much people enjoy it. 

But then it is also only a mod.  I don't think people are being fair with the whole, "Dayz proves that permadeath would work".  It doesn't.  It only shows that in a mod, were there is no character development, and therefore no real attachment to THAT character, people don't mind if they lose some items they may have scrounged.

FFA full loot pvp MMO's have a hard time attracting people to play them, throw in the ability to lose all character progress you've made and it would have even a harder time attracting players.

As a mod for a realatively cheap shooter simulater though, yeah it works fine.  But in no way does that translate into what people would accept in an MMO.

Did the guy in the video scare anyone else or just me?

The tech looks pretty cool.  I read an article somewhere that a kinect type system had been developed for the PC now.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by keitholi
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Right now I'm playing EQ2, this is one of the only games out there I've seen that actually lets me build a house using brick and board style.

I'm building a huge monster castle with a throne room, small hall, kitchen, dining area, crafting area, servants quarters, storage, mage tower, main bedroom, guest bedroom, treasurey room, barracks, armory, stables, tavern and a courtyard with three gardens.  Pretty darn fun actually.

I know atitd does this as well but EQ2 also has adenturing.  Istaria comes close by allowing my a couple thousand items to place but in EQ2 I get to actually design my own house, not choose between one of 700 or so styles.

 

 

When did all that go in? Last I played, you basically rented a room or house from the main cities and they were already pre-planned. You basically got to redesign the interior as well as totally customize it with all your trophy loot and such, but totally customized built-from-the-ground-up now?

I actually don't know when, but I read it on the EQ2 forums 2 months ago, so thats when I started playing again.]

There are still the houses/apartments but you can now build stuff in them.  Or you can do what I did, and bought a huge flat floating island (Tenebroush Island) and just start building.

Here are some quick screen shots.  I'm still buidling so don't be too harsh :)

I love this staircase.  Took me forever to get it the way I wanted.

 

 

 WTF!?  Is this the dungeon thing? 

Can you do this as F2P.  I would be willing to load up my old account if I can.  Already pay for 2 EVE accounts, and I'm not willing to cancel either of them.  So that answers the OP.  EVE.

Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by jpnz
 

 

There is just no evidence that the demand is there.

 

I agree.  Demand has to be generated.  In most cases, products don't sell themselves.  Generate a need, generate market image and awareness, position the market image as a solution to the need.  That's how demand is created.

 

McDonald's, Coke, Pepsi, and even President Obama are clear examples of this in action.  Mass marketing creates market image and awareness.

 

When's the last time anyone saw a major advertisement campaign for a sandbox MMORPG?  I'm guessing Star Wars Galaxies.  I can't recall ever seeing anything significant from any of the Indies.  Most can barely afford programmers let alone $10 million (small on today's terms) for their advertising budget.  A few even manage to botch their own word of mouth campaigns because of poor PR and low customer satisfaction averages.

 

I'm not disagreeing that the current market is small-ish.  However, that doesn't imply on its own that the potential market isn't significant.

 The last part especially.

If it's not offered it can't be judged, and what is usually offered is pretty bad compared to what else is released.  If all it took was "being a sandbox" I would have continued to play MO instead of playing Rift alongside EVE.  And a lot can be said about offering quality product, even when it's generic quality product. 

And it's easier to emulate the standard model then it is to create something new.  

Most people playing WoW don't even know what else is out there.  When they're done with WoW, they move on from MMO's.  When was the last time you saw an article on Mo or DF in Game informer or PC gamer?  Damned if they didn't run Rift and ToR articles though. 

Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Uhwop
 

 And once again.

Lineage 2 had near 12 million subscirbers, and was the only mmo that was ever able to compare to WoW in the number of subs.  And yet you keep on saying there isn't a demand for sandboxes.  Why do you keep ignoring this?

And I do support a sandbox MMO, EVE.  All the other simply suck, and not becuse they're sandboxes, but because they're crappy sandbox GAMES.

So we are counting 'accounts' made in a F2P as subs?

Cool!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage_II

 To date, the game has been played by more than 14 million users, mostly based in Asia.

 

 No, that was prior to the F2P, and I even stated that they were mostly Asian.

Guess who MOSTLY plays WoW? 

The US is the SMALLEST percentage of MMO gamers.  That's a well known fact.

 

Do you not realize that you, and everyone else, are basing an assumption on the exact same fact?  There hasn't been a good sandbox MMO made, outside of one that puts you in the role of a spaceship.

Or if you like.  How many people play second life?

LoTRO, F2P

DDO, F2P

EQ, F2P

EQ2, F2P

VG, going F2P

AoC, F2P

WAR, F2P

Aion, F2P

In what world does almost every AAA themepark mmo going F2P constitute overwhelming support or an indication that people would rather play them.  Especially when no one's even attempted a AAA sandbox. 

How do you explain that?

Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by XAPGames
 

One factor to this could be the lack of AAA sandboxes.  If there was a clear leader it's critical mass could increase exposure of the sub-genre.

 

UO is ancient.  SWG lost most of its sandboxiness in expansions.  What's left?  A few examples are DF, MO, Xsyon, and Wurm.  All of them together probably had less of an advertising budget than "Hello Kitty".  They simply don't have general market* penetration.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the _potential_ market for an MMO sandbox is quite large.  The current market is not.

 

* the kind of people who know MMOs exist but have no clue about the diversity since they play their own game and seldom leave it except for other big name titles.

Meh, it is just the market working as intended.

There is just no evidence that the demand is there.

 

Fun fact, I always ask these 'sandbox mmo' supporters if they play any sandbox MMOs and very rarely do they say 'yes' to it.

Which is just sad. So you 'support' it by saying you do but don't actually support one? 

Best thing these supporters can do is to actually support a sandbox game and prove that yes, there is a 1M+ sub sandbox MMO!

 And once again.

Lineage 2 had near 12 million subscirbers, and was the only mmo that was ever able to compare to WoW in the number of subs.  And yet you keep on saying there isn't a demand for sandboxes.  Why do you keep ignoring this?

And I do support a sandbox MMO, EVE.  All the other simply suck, and not becuse they're sandboxes, but because they're crappy sandbox GAMES.

Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Drakxii

This is a stupid thread.  The OP's and his supporters arugement isn't vaild.  You can't say that there isn't a market for something because no has buys it, when no one is offering it.  It's like saying town X doesn't like tacos when no sells tacos in that town.  

 

That say it is true that the the market for a hardcore FFA PVP sandbox isn't that large but other then SWG there hasn't been one  non FFA PVP sandboxy game I know of.

Plenty of companies offered, I don't see 1M+ sub for any of them though.

EVE, Wurm Online, Earthrise, Tale in the desert all are sandbox MMOs.

It is funny how a 'themepark' player like myself knows sandbox titles than suppose 'sandbox MMO' supporters.

 That doesn't make them good.

Wurm?  Seriously?  Have you played wurm?  I know some people like it, but my brother also like NES emulators on his 2k dollar PC, doesn't mean I will. 

Earthrise? 

Tales of the desert?  Isn't that that one that has no combat in it at all?  That's the sandbox mmo that's all about crafting right? 

You're using one MMO (edit, mised up earth and beyond with eathrise.  this game isn't even out), and two others made by small studios and what most people wouldn't even consdier to be a good game. 

With EVE as the only exception.  The one that's sub based, and seen overall growth year in and year out, while themeparks left and right are losing subs and going F2P. 

 Bit Edit:  Earth and beyond, not earthrise.

Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Dewm

I'm just not convinced there is this giant blanket called themepark and games like WoW or RIFT actually fit under it.

 The giant blanket is created by the individual person demanding everyone use what they deem the word to mean.

The ACTUAL word, either sandbox or themepark has a far broader meaning than many are willing to admit.

As for Skyrim being sandbox or not, all you have to do is a search for "is skrim a sandbox game" and look at the dozens of links to dozens of gaming websites calling it one....or go to one of several extremely popular TES modding sites with 100,000s of TES game players members of talking about how great the games sandbox features are.

 No it doesn't.

The term sandbox was around long before any game ever allowed you to build anything, and even longer before there was ever anything called an MMO. 

It was a feature in some very old RPG's, or released as a mod to others, that allowed you to disable the objectives of the game and still play it without limitation. 

Sandbox MODE.  That's were it comes from, that's what games like UO set out to do, and what the TES series entire development philosphy is based on. 

NONobjective based gameplay.  That is all it means, that's all it ever means.  It's simply been forgotten or ignored, but it is the bases of every sandbox game ever made.

This is not what I THINK it means.  This is what it has always meant, from the very first time I ever selected the option in a single player RPG to active sandbox mode.  It is how every single sandbox game I've ever played since, has allowed me to play.  Without any developer defined objectives. 

Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by TheCrow2k
 

The remarkable popularity of DayZ right now shows us that there definitely are a lot of gamers interested in Sandbox games and since DayZ is at its core a fps persistant world not dissimilar to an MMO it is attracting players from the MMO community and is even covered on this site.

No one is saying 'sandbox' games are not popular as Minecraft (put in other sandbox games as you see fit) sold millions.

However, MMO Sandbox is a niche. They have smaller subs than themeparks.

To companies who are looking to invest time/$$$ into making an MMO, the 'massive' (1M+) sandbox crowd is a myth since they  see no evidence of it.

 

 CCP would like to inform you that your wrong.

CCP has as many subs as most subscription based themepark MMO's do. 

The only difference is, there's very few GOOD sandbox MMO's out there to play, and lots of themeparks. 

MMO themeparks are just as much a niche if you take WoW out of the equasion, because most MMO's don't get over 500k subs using the subscription format. 

BTW, let me say this once again.

LINEAGE 2 had near 12 million subscribers at one point.  Most all of them in Asia.  Guess were something like 75% of the WoW playerbase is?

I didn't know EVE had 1M+ subs. (fun fact, it doesn't)

Aion was pushing 2M+ before the F2P switch this year.

LoTRO/DDO had 500k+ (larger than EVE) before the F2P switch.

The total number of subs for themepark is higher than sandbox mmos. That's just fact.

Like I said before, for various companies, these 'sandbox mmo' crowd exists but are not 'massive'.

 Were did I say EVE had 1m+ subs?

Pretty sure I said that most sub based MMO's dont' have over 500k.  How many did you say LoTRO had before it went F2P?  Curious how you know that as well.

Aion?  Say it aint so, 2m subs before it went F2P?  Were did you get that number again?  And would you like to guess were all those subs come from?

Pretty sure I also said something about there being lots of themepark MMO's to play.  Also something about there being very, read VERY, few sandbox ones.

Funny.  I keep pointing this out.

LINEAGE 2 had near 12 million subs.  L2 wasn't a themepark.  It was nice that you took the time to adress everything else i wrote incorrectly, but didn't bother to address this little bit.

Guys, the US is like the SMALLEST factor in MMO subs.  That's just a fact.

PS: BTW, Aion, Lineage 2. Both of them have the same developer.  One is a traditional themepark, the other is not.  One had only a fraction of the subs the other had, and it wasn't the one that wasn't a traditional themepark. 

Hmmm.  

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Uhwop
 

 Because at no point am I required to achieve an objective laid out by the developer. 

Which is the only thing that seperates a themepark from a sandbox.  The lack of structured goals, otherwise known as an objective, that can't be ignored. 

But I can see from the tone of your post that the only reason you have this absurd idea of what a sandbox is is because you have some sort of issue with sandbox gameplay.   You're last sentence clearly shows that you would prefer to chase carots instead of growiing your own.

what? using that logic, all Themepark MMO are now Sandbox, because I can run off and do whatever I want to instead of endgame raiding 24/7....

 

HEY EVERYBODY RIFT AND GW2 ARE SANDBOX MMO!!! SPREAD THE WORD!!!!....

 

 

/end sarcasm

 

 

addressing that last part of your post.

sorry but Carrot on the Stick, is only in the head. You can have fun regardless. in Skyrim, you could say, getting stronger was your carrot on the stick. logic applies here. its alll in the head. I can play the way I want to. thats not what makes a game themepark or not.

Sandbox are known for player made content. Skyrim's only Sandbox element comes from the open PC version of the game's modding. thats it.... nothing gameplay wise about Skyrim is sandbox. its themepark.

 Therein lies your problem.  You're not actually using any logic.  You're entire arguement apparently boils down to, I don't like it therefore it is.  Which would also explain why another poster wouldn't be in the same reality as yours. 

Two of my nephews are staying the night tonight.  Instead of arguign with you, I can go argue with them.  When they stick their fingers in there ears and start with the "nyah, nyah, nyah, I can't hear you!!!!"  I can gently smack them on the back of the head and tell them to go away.

Having that same arguement with a 31 year old adult is just pointless. 

Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by TheCrow2k
 

The remarkable popularity of DayZ right now shows us that there definitely are a lot of gamers interested in Sandbox games and since DayZ is at its core a fps persistant world not dissimilar to an MMO it is attracting players from the MMO community and is even covered on this site.

No one is saying 'sandbox' games are not popular as Minecraft (put in other sandbox games as you see fit) sold millions.

However, MMO Sandbox is a niche. They have smaller subs than themeparks.

To companies who are looking to invest time/$$$ into making an MMO, the 'massive' (1M+) sandbox crowd is a myth since they  see no evidence of it.

 

 CCP would like to inform you that your wrong.

CCP has as many subs as most subscription based themepark MMO's do. 

The only difference is, there's very few GOOD sandbox MMO's out there to play, and lots of themeparks. 

MMO themeparks are just as much a niche if you take WoW out of the equasion, because most MMO's don't get over 500k subs using the subscription format. 

BTW, let me say this once again.

LINEAGE 2 had near 12 million subscribers at one point.  Most all of them in Asia.  Guess were something like 75% of the WoW playerbase is?

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