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All Posts by Disdena

All Posts by Disdena

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Originally posted by pit101

Id run through the whole beginning tutorial. VERY very basic, but it does help lay some groundwork on the general idea of the game.

Then set up some custom matches with you+bots vs bots. do a few of those until you find a champion you think you could stick with a while, then head into "co-op vs ai".

I would do those so you can practice actual teamwork and communication (as theres none of either with bots). Its also good for still figuring out champions.

But I would jump into pvp earlier than what some others might be saying. Not doing them all the time, but just a couple maybe for the experience. It is different playing against  other players for sure, and its good to start while your amongst other lower levels.

Dont worry about runes until you can get tier 3 (which unlock at level 20 I believe).

And my final bit of advice would be to try and always stay positive. Things can get..intense in some games, and staying positive can help keep the team on track when you'd otherwise start falling apart.

Hope i helped some :).

Best advice of the thread. Before PvP, do some Co-op vs. AI matches. But even before those, play Custom games where it's just you and nobody else but bots. This will allow you a sterile environment to at least figure out which way is up, so to speak. You should be comfortable with absolute basics like using abilities and buying items before you start playing with strangers. However, you don't need to hang out too long in AI Land because it's not the end of the world if your team loses the game due to a couple mistakes from you. It's something everyone has to learn at some point. And it is best if you get in some practice against other humans while you're still among low level players.

For those who don't know, League of Legends uses a community judgement system called the Tribunal. If a player gets reported by other players several times, a Tribunal case is built against them and reviewed by volunteers from the LoL community. These volunteers vote to Pardon or Punish, depending on whether or not any of the chat logs contained conduct that is in violation of the game's code of conduct. The reported player receives a warning or temporary ban if the majority of the Tribunalists vote to Punish, and with their punishment they receive a link to their Tribunal case page. Repeat offenders get reviewed by Riot for the possibility of a permaban. Players are encouraged to share this link with the community if they don't agree with the decision.

There are many safeguards within the system to minimize abuse. Account names are hidden so that Tribunalists don't know who they are judging. People who falsely file reports gradually lose reporting power, as the system trusts their reports less and less. People who vote irregularly in the Tribunal (dissenting from the majority too often) also have their voting power reduced. And Riot constantly audits the system by checking cases and overturning Pardons or Punishes as necessary. Overall, they are fairly satisfied with the Tribunal's accuracy in determining a reported player's guilt. I think it's pretty fair to say that this is a lot more justice than you can expect from a standard MMO, where you could email customer service about an offensive player but have little reason to think that someone would actually look into it and take action.

For what it's worth, this guy posted his reform card to the Tribunal forum (thread here) and not one single person responding to the thread said that his actions were reasonable or that the ban was undeserved.

If you're unfamiliar with LoL terminology, what's being said in the case might not make sense. But anyone who knows the game will tell you that his teammates did nothing wrong and he had no business refusing to communicate with or cooperate with them. He calls everyone who disagrees with him a troll and mutes his entire team without cause at the drop of a hat. While doing this, he does things in-game that defy all common sense, like (Game 3) starting with no items or (Game 1) jungling as Katarina or (every game) not choosing Flash. None of these things are reportable in and of themselves, but they paint a larger picture of someone who acts in a way that they expect will upset their team, and has no intention of changing the way that they play or attempting to cooperate. That's a violation of the rules.

Like pretty much everyone who posts their reform card, he's just placing the blame on the system and refuses to take responsibility. Rather than listening to people that tell him what rules he has broken and improving his conduct, he just says that anyone who voted Punish or agrees with the verdict is a great big troll. He's one of the players who will end up getting banned for good eventually. I hope that his rant doesn't discourage anyone from playing this game.

If we're talking about immersion in the sense of "losing yourself in the experience", showing me the numbers doesn't worsen it in any way. They're like watching a movie with captions/subtitles on. I don't sit there and think "Well OBVIOUSLY this isn't real life, because in real life you can't visibly read what people are saying!" It's just information. And the less information I'm given about the mechanics of a game, the more I have to think about them... or worse, look them up.
Originally posted by Panther2103
Or they will just report you. I never understood that, why can you get reported for not being good at a game, then I have heard that you can actually be temporarily banned from being reported for playing bad. Now since I haven't actually performed the reporting before I wonder if they report you for physically being bad, or if theres an option for intentional feeding of the opposite team and everyone just abuses it.

That's a common misconception. When you report someone, if you mouse over the "Unskilled Player" option on the dropdown, the tooltip informs you that it is not a bannable offense. If a player receives numerous Unskilled Player reports, it will slightly affect their matchmaking in unranked games so that they play against worse players. Riot hasn't released information on how many reports are needed or how much of an adjustment it gives. I suspect that it's very slight. It probably exists as a way of letting off steam, so that when someone is upset at a teammate who did poorly, they can report them in a way that does no real harm.

Unskilled Player reports don't go to the Tribunal, but Intentional Feeding is another story. However, if a player does their best and gets reported for Intentional Feeding anyway, they're very likely to get pardoned. We don't see a whole lot of posts in the Tribunal forum for people who were wrongly banned for feeding.

Riot puts more effort into discouraging bad behavior than any other online game I've ever played in my entire life. It's the nature of MOBA games to have ragers and trolls; their continued existence in LoL is not because Riot is slacking.
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I think this difficulty choice should be highlighted more, and make it into more games, so no one can complain the game being too easy or too difficult.

There is really no way to make a game good for everyone with one difficulty setting.

Heck, difficulty setting is almost universal in single player games. MMO should take more good ideas from single player games.

Actually, I'd argue the exact opposite! There is really no way to make a game good on multiple difficulty settings.

Taking an existing game and making it harder by doubling the number of enemies or the damage they do—or reducing the enemy's numbers or damage—leaves you with a game that had very little thought put into it. It takes a lot of balance to come up with a challenge that feels good when you overcome it. Nudging the numbers up or down to create a new level of challenge can't compare with making a new challenge from scratch.

I guess I could use class design as an example. Imagine if an MMO creator made a bunch of classes and put a lot of work into balancing them and making sure they worked well and were fun to play. Now imagine that they need to create one more class for tanks, so they take an existing class like Monk and create a spin-off tank class that is identical to Monk in every way except that it takes 33% less damage and deals 33% less damage. The class would feel like a total rip-off; it wouldn't be as balanced or fun to play.

That's how I view scaled difficulty as well. The encounters are designed around a certain intended difficulty (whatever the default is), and you risk creating a sloppy and inconsistent experience if you just push the numbers around. On the other hand, if you actually do spend the necessary amount of time balancing each of the 1-10 difficulty levels, you've effectively created the same content 10 times, and it won't be anywhere near as good as if you'd spent all that time on just one difficulty level. In the end, you can create a much better game by saying "Here's the content, take it or leave it" and accepting that only the people who have the appropriate skill level will be 100% satisfied with the experience.

Originally posted by Quizzical

For example, the first time a bot is initalized, it could roll a random number and store that number forever.  (I.e., check to see if there's a saved random number, and if not, then roll one and save it in a file where it will be found in the future.)  Each time the bot program is loaded, it rolls a random number and then stores that one for the duration of the session, but a new random number the next time the program is loaded.  And then each time the character has to move, it rolls a third random number.  And then any time the bot has to move, the distance it moves is the "ideal" distance (what it would be with no randomness) plus the sum of the three random numbers.

I don't think you understand, or else you're underestimating the power of data analysis (or overestimating the usefulness of a random number generator). Summing 3 random numbers does not make the regularity any more difficult to detect.

In the example you gave, let's say that one computer has a permanently stored value of 2709 (milliseconds). And its random number for the duration of the session is 1370. And each time it moves, it rolls a third number between 100 and 3000. The sum of these three numbers determines how many milliseconds it moves in one direction before changing directions. Over the course of the session, it moves a few thousand times. The recorded values of how far it moved each time form an almost perfectly distributed set of numbers between 4179 and 7079.

This looks nothing like the data that would be generated by a human player. In a single session, a human player might move in several different directions per seconds, then run in a straight line for over a minute, rapidly change directions again, then run for 3 minutes with only a few turns, then afk for 15 minutes. There's nothing regular, nothing robotic about the way a human being moves around.

If bot creators could collect a lot of data on how real players move, it would be possible (but still difficult)  to make a bot that couldn't easily be distinguished from a human player. But A.) they wouldn't be able to collect that data, B.) they wouldn't even know that straight-line distance was what was being tracked, and C.) there are dozens of other values that could be tracked at the same time.

To stop bots, you don't have to make it impossible to bot, you just have to make it not worth it. A high enough success rate on immediately finding and banning bots means that gold farming operations won't be able to keep accounts running. It also means that players won't be tempted to risk botting for even one quick session. It just makes so much more sense to identify and ban bots rather than getting into the arms race of preventing them from working at all.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

How many different heroes should you be good at in order to be successful.  I mean, can you just pick say 6-10 heroes to master and still be competitive?  You obviously have to learn how to deal with the other heroes when they face you.

 

I have a hard time with the support classes and it's harder to judge my own effectiveness in them if they aren't designed for PKs.

 

Also, what is the status of cheating.  Are maphacks impossible in LOL?  They always worried me in DOTA in WC3.  Does LOL hide other player movement from the client until the fog is lifted? 

Honestly, for PvP Normals you can get away with just having 1 champ that you play as. If someone else takes that champ, or if that champion really isn't what your team needs, just exit the game and try again in 5 minutes. Nobody expects you to be able to be competent with half a dozen champions for your first PvP game. Even after 500+ wins in normal and a few dozen in ranked, so far there are only 11 champions that I feel comfortable playing.

There are many reasons why it's hard to gauge your effectiveness with supports in bot matches. Bots don't engage intelligently and they don't back away intelligently, so the zone control skills that you should be practicing are just going to waste. Also you don't have to ward, and your 0cs (0 creep score; the support isn't supposed to kill the minions) also goes to waste because your ad carry isn't terribly dependent upon getting creep kills—they can kill the bots over and over fairly easily for gold.

The only cheat I've heard of is loldrop, which does a DDoS attack on a specific game server in order to crash a game before you lose it (and it shouldn't work anymore, they changed something about the way servers keep track of games). Spectators get all info on the players but they're on a 3 minute delay to avoid cheating. I'm pretty sure there is no way to map hack.

You know, I would actually like to see someone take the Riot Games approach to detecting bots: heavy-duty data mining. Riot's done a lot to identify certain types of behavior in League of Legends, and for the most part they identify the worst troublemakers by just analyzing the data across all the millions of games that are constantly being played.

They found (and temp banned) the people who were abusing the reporting tool to bully other players with false reports; all they had to do was check out what group of people were filing the most reports against players who had never been punished, and then narrow it down based on other similar data. They found (and temp banned) the people who were abusing the queue system by trolling their teammates into leaving the game before it started; all they had to do was check out how which players had the most games fail to start due to a teammate queue dodging, and then narrow it down based on other similar data. The data generated by these players made them a dead giveaway because of how different they act compared to a normal player. They were significant statistical outliers, and that made them easy to spot.

Bots would be several orders of magnitude easier to spot. While troublesome players act in a way that's somewhat different than other players, bots act with a predictability that no human being could possibly match. Given enough data, it wouldn't take more than a few minutes to sort out the players from the bots with a shocking amount of accuracy.

Let me give you an example. When you're moving in an MMO, about how far do you run in a straight line before changing directions? After defeating and looting an enemy, about how long do you wait before moving again? How often do you jump? These numbers vary from player to player and from session to session. If there are 5000 accounts running bots, all of them should have virtually identical values for all of these because their movement is governed by the same set of instructions. On a bell curve showing the mean, median, or mode for all players for any one of these statistics, the 5000 bots would appear as a glaringly obvious spike.

Even if the bot makers knew that you were specifically watching for this, they would be hardpressed to come up with a way around it. Since all of the bots are moving according to the same instructions, they're always going to be the same and thus appear abnormal. Even putting in deliberate randomness (wait for a random period of 1-20 seconds after looking a mob before moving again) wouldn't help because such regular randomness still doesn't look human. As long as the heuristic you're using to sniff out these bots is smart enough, you'll always find them.

But the even better part is that bot makers DON'T know specifically what you're watching for. If they don't know you're tracking straight-line distance and post-looting behavior, they don't even know that's where they'd need to add randomness. And that's far from the only option available... that's just movement alone. Trying to nail harvest bots? Track how long a node was spawned before the player harvested it. Track how often the player visits a node that wasn't the closest to him. Track how full his inventory is before he leaves the zone or logs out, or track how long he remains in the zone once his inventory is full. Combat: How often does his HP go below 1/2? How about his MP/energy? How full is his HP when he engages an enemy? How often does he rest? How long did it take him to hit level 20, how many items did he vendor in that time, how many quests has he done, how much damage has he dealt? All of these things expose bots as outliers, and you can even have a detection system that flags or bans as soon as it notices a player with values equal to those of previously confirmed bots.

You can't ensure that no one can ever bot in your game, but you can make it so that it's impossible to have a bot empire or a popular bot program. Heuristically identify behavior that doesn't match how human beings are playing your game.

Originally posted by strangewizard

 

If however, you added perma-death, and the ability to loot a player for everything on their person, it would fundamentally change the dynamics of the game. Killing someone now would actually mean something

No. It. Would. Not.

There's this maddeningly persistent idea that a permadeath system could cause people to treat death and murder as they do in real life. There's no precedent for it, and no logic behind it.

It is wrong to kill a person. It is not wrong to kill a character in a video game, especially if the whole point of the game is to go around killing people. So none of the usual tropes that apply to death in real life and in fiction—mourning, vengeance, fear of dying—can apply to an MMO character's death. Killing is nothing like real killing. It's closer to stealing. Except, no, it's not even that! We put systems into place to discourage people from stealing from one another; if we could wipe it out entirely, we would. But a FFA permadeath MMO puts it right on the front of the box as the best feature of the entire game: kill and be killed by anyone at any time, full loot your enemies and make them start over at level 1! It's the entire draw of the game.

Killing and stealing are wrong and you're not supposed to do them. Killing in a game, even one with permadeath, can never have the same effect on the virtual society because it is not something that you're not supposed to do.

"I have an idea for a game."

^ This right here represents about 0.001% of what goes into making a game. It's why no one will hire you just because you have good ideas for games. Almost nothing about what makes a game great comes from the idea that spawned the game, and almost everything about what makes a game great comes from how that idea is implemented.

IP is one more step removed from "I have an idea for a game." It's "I have a world or story about which one could come up with an idea for a game." No matter how good the IP is, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the game.

It's the death of the Spades, man. The internet killed the Spade player archetype. There's no value in being a guru who knows a lot of obscure secrets or who has mathematically analyzed various builds. Information on "how do I beat this quest" or "which spell should I learn" used to be passed around through in-game chat. Finding something else and then relaying it to other people that you knew was part of gameplay. Now it's something you do outside the game, on forums and wikis.

I think it's something we just have to let go of. Puzzles and secret crafting recipes may have a place in other single-player or multiplayer games, but they really don't belong in MMOs anymore.

I would not, but that's mainly because I think it makes sense to judge a game based on the experience that the creators intended. So, I don't want a high level character or a million gold because I want to play through the game from start to finish normally. Starting out as a level capped human warrior (just because I have a level capped human warrior in some other game) would mean missing out on the entire experience of progressing through the ranks of this new game as a human warrior, and would leave me unqualified to comment on what I think of the game as a whole.
Originally posted by Dewm

 

Reason number 1,298,312,343 I like FFXI..

 

When you crafted a item it had a chance of being Normal quality, High Quality +1, HQ +2 or HQ +3

and it changed the stats of the item. So a NQ wax sword was worth pennies, but a wax sword +3 could be worth millions.

 

plus they had a crap-ton of items to build...

and it was actually worth making middle level items, because it took long enough to level that if you paid a bit for a level 20 sword it was ok, because you would use it for 2-4 levels...which equaled maybe 2 weeks play time?

Are you sure you're not thinking of FFXIV? FFXI doesn't have multiple qualities for crafted items. You can get normal or +1, that's it. Crafted consumables can go as high as +3, but not equipment. The +2 and +3 equipment pieces that do exist come from the Trial quests, not crafting.

Glad you're enjoying it so far. :)  Which champions have you tried?

While there are a lot of complaints about the community, the system for reporting players has had a lot of thought put into it. People really do get banned pretty quickly if they go around dropping racial slurs or intentionally dying a dozen times just to piss their team off. The bigger problem you'll run into is playing with and against skilled players on smurf accounts. But because of the matchmaking system, anyone who gets that many wins in a row will start getting matched up against higher level accounts.

Generally, once you get to higher level games, one person (the jungler) will have the role of exclusively running around killing the neutral mob camps so that they're not taking experience and gold from a lane. This doesn't happen as much when you're low level because runes and masteries have an effect on how easily you can clear those camps without taking a lot of damage. Around level 20 it will become more common than not to see a jungler on both teams.

Originally posted by Lissyl

Imagine having the -entire pool- of traps available in the entire game randomly determined for each and every room as you enter it.  So you could (very very rarely) come across a -real- death-trap of a room...or more commonly, there will be no traps at all. 

This is a pretty huge problem with games that go beyond the event horizon of excessive randomness.

One of the ways that games appeal to gamers is that they offer a sort of enforced fairness. Every obstacle that you're given can be beaten somehow. There are no obstacles that can't be overcome unless the challenge is to figure out that you can't overcome it and you need to find another way. You're never going to get to World 8-2 of Super Mario Bros and find a huge wall with a large pit in front of it, making it impossible for you to ever get to the end of the level and the end of the game. It's never going to happen.

That's one of the ways that video games comfort us where real life can't. Later today, a bridge you're driving across might collapse and there will be no action you can take to save yourself. Tonight, you might wake up in a burning building and there will be no path you can take that will get you out alive. Life is unfair like that, and games aren't.

Even when people talk about really really difficult games or difficult sections of games, they're always talking about something that can be beaten. A section where nothing you do can possibly get you past the obstacle isn't hard, it's stupid. (Again, not counting obstacles that you overcome by making sure you don't encounter them.)

If a game kills you in a situation where there's no action you could have possibly taken to survive, it's generally recognized as a very bad game. A room that randomly ends up with a certain-death combination of traps is one example. Another example would be a monster that does a random attack every 4 seconds, and one of the attacks is a highly-damaging 4 second AOE stun. If there truly is no way to avoid or cancel the stun, there's a small chance that the monster will use the stun a few times in a row in wipe the whole group.

So one of the dangers of randomizing a world, dungeon, or encounter in too many ways is that you lose control over whether it is fair or not. And gamers go into games with the understanding that there is fairness on some level... that the game will not present them with an unwinnable challenge unless it's a challenge that is unwinnable by design for a reason.

Originally posted by Master10K

Worst thing is that you should not buy any runes until you are level 20 and can get Tier 3 runes. Tier 1 & Tier 2s are a waste of IP.

 

Agreed. It's best if you do not spend any IP on Tier 1 or 2 runes. When you do get access to Tier 3, this page makes a very good reference. Most runes are not worth using; stick to the ones that he designates S-Rank or A-Rank.

I would not say that playing with an unlocked camera is absolutely necessary, but it grants you a major advantage. If you can get used to it, I highly recommend it.

Getting dozens of kills against bots is somewhat influenced by runes and individual champions, but it's mostly a matter of confidence. When you know everything about the capabilities of your enemies, and the capabilities of the champ you're playing, you can simply commit to every fight that's going to end in your favor. A human player can get "zoned" by a skilled opponent: they will stay a certain distance away from that opponent, because they know that they won't escape alive if they get any closer. Bots have no concept of staying away from a fight that they're guaranteed to lose. So it's easy to rack up unlimited kills once you know that you can beat them in a straight up fight.

Originally posted by Homitu

I don't disagree with the proposal for varying difficulties in MMOs, but I do have a fundamental objection with this specific approach to it.  This just farts in the face of character progression.  It would make every upgrade one receives while playing on a harder difficulty feel utterly pointless.  What's the point when I could just as easily boost myself to higher stats by turning down the difficulty?

Even when one understands that progression tredmills during leveling or post-level cap are all arbitrary, the illusion still exists that our characters are actually getting more powerful relative to the rest of the world.  This proposal would evaporate this illusion and make it all feel worthless.  

Instead, I'd suggest something like full servers with different difficulty settings, and then perhaps a feature like GW2's Guesting where you can temporarily play any of your characters on another server so that you wouldn't have to reroll completely every time you tried a different difficulty.  

It would just feel much better from a progression standpoint to increase the power of the enemies you face rather than nerf or artificially boost individual players' characters.  

My sentiments exactly. Progression is a key element of RPGs, both MMO and non-MMO. Anything that says "you can be more powerful right now if you want" runs counter to the core mechanic of the game.

Originally posted by cheyane

I tried Sona cos she was free and all and I really am bad at playing her was a disaster died like 4 times in a bot game then I tried Garan the melee guy also free and did way better , even managed 6 champ kills . So I bought Master Yi instead of a support champ. 

 

I really like the game .

I actually came into the thread to recommend Sona, it's a shame that you didn't have a good time playing her. It is helpful to learn the abilities of all of the characters so that you know what to watch out for. Playing a tankier champion (instead of a fragile champ like Sona) gives you a more little leeway to make the mistake of getting too close to an enemy champion who is dangerous enough to kill you. After you get a little more used to the game, I hope you do give support another try.

One very very important thing to remember is that kills and deaths are not a good indicator of how good you are at the game, especially when playing a support role. If your death is a sacrifice that allows someone else on your team to get away or secure a kill on the enemy carry, that's a trade in your team's favor. Support champions shouldn't be getting kills—in fact, it's not a stretch at all to say that a 0/6 Soraka is probably doing a better job than a 6/6 Soraka.

If you ever want to quickly find out the abilities of a champion that you're playing again, search for Champion Mini on Ciderhelm's YouTube channel. Among other things, he does these mini 30-second videos that quickly explain how to play against a certain champ.

Okay, I have never played EVE but I feel as though this is too blatantly obvious to mention. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're in space in this game, right?

When you execute a crazy flying maneuver in a video game (whether in a plane or as a person with flying powers), you feel like you're zooming and diving and taking tight corners and whatnot. The reason for this is that your surroundings provide a frame of reference. There's the ground ahead of you, and it's approaching fast; that means you're diving. There's a sideways skyscraper above you and to your left, and it is rotating; that means you're banking left around a skyscraper.

In space, there is no frame of reference other than the distant stars millions of light years away. Without something to compare your ship to, there is no way to convey the fact that you're moving. Picture Sonic the Hedgehog without the background. Just a nondescript grey square behind him. No matter how fast his little red feet spin, you wouldn't feel like he's moving. Same goes for space. There's no way to add the feeling of moving unless there is an environment with things in it, which space kind of lacks. If they let you control the ship with airplane-like controls, it would feel wrong.

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