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All Posts by Disdena

All Posts by Disdena

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hey look it is one of these threads.

This is indeed backwards logic.

I play F2P games occasionally. I never pay anything for them (with one exception) but I also don't complain about them. If playing the game for free is not fun, I stop playing.

If someone plays an F2P game for free and complains that it is Pay To Win, I would encourage them to do what I do: uninstall. Don't gripe about it, don't insist on the forums that they change it, don't run to the window and bellow the developers' flaws to the world. Just leave, without a grudge.

You're suggesting that someone in that situation should not only continue to play the game, but should begin paying for it, with the intention of changing the entire paradigm of how game companies charge for their services. Uh uh, nope. There are too many games out there to bother with this tactic. If the game you're playing doesn't have the type of fiscal model that you like, go find one that does. There will ALWAYS be Play To Win games, because there will ALWAYS be players who want to pay for power. Why think that you can undo that? Why even try?

I seem to have interpreted the topic in a different way.

Let's say you're reading a novel. Two of the main characters are talking in a shopping mall. The chapter ends, and the next chapter begins with a minor character at her apartment. But wait! What happened to the mall? Does it still exist?

It doesn't make sense to answer that question with "yes" or "no". It's a meaningless question because "existence" doesn't have a meaning in this context. The mall and the characters don't really exist even when you're reading about them. Why even ask? It doesn't make sense.

Approach an online game from the same angle. You're the only person in a dungeon. You walk out. Does the dungeon still exist? Are the orcs and goblins still scurrying around the corridors while no one's there to aggro them? In a sense, those goblins don't exist even when you are fighting them. Still, you could answer yes with some justification if the servers work that way. But you're better off realizing that it doesn't matter. The idea that When I leave this world, it's still there is pure illusion. It's not there. There is no there, it's a fictional world. And there is really no use in begrudging the game server for not continuing to run a simulation with no audience just for giggles. We don't expect the novel to go on continuously describing the mall for the entire remainder of the book just because the characters went there once.

It's different if the game's draw is its persistence. If, for example, you leave the game and think to yourself "When I come back, things may be different. The fence I built might get knocked down. The acolyte I met might become head priestess, or might leave to become a traveling missionary." Farmville is a great example of an online game that is built entirely around persistence. The fact that things change in the time that you're gone is vital to the game's core mechanic. The entire game depends upon this. If you don't care about what's changed while you were logged off, the persistence is completely going to waste.

And I think that's perhaps the message that was intended. Focusing on the persistent aspect of MMOs means missing the point. Persistence must serve a purpose or else it's just a feature for the sake of having that feature. If you necessarily exclude any game from being called an MMORPG because it is lobby-based, are you sure you know what the genre is all about?


Food for thought: Despite the supposed importance of a persistent world—even to the extent of keeping empty areas "running" with no players inside—how many MMOs keep the player character in the world when the player logs out? If lobbies and instances break the illusion of a fictional world so easily, how do you rationalize a player character ceasing to exist whenever the player stops playing?

Originally posted by Arglebargle

Auction Houses tend to make games more fun for one type of player, and less fun for another.   Know your target audience, and prepare accordingly.

Quoted for truth.

Hmm, that makes more sense. I realize now that I was sidetracked by what Fenistil said, and thought you were trying to make the same point. I guess you're just saying that simpler is better, and while I don't think that's true for every type of game, many kinds of games can deliver a satisfying experience with a simple combat system that isn't bogged down by complex mechanics. If you want the focus to be on the experience and not the challenge of mastering the combat, simplifying the system is the way to go. That's not what I prefer in an MMO but obviously everyone has their own preference.
Originally posted by Renoaku

I am not posting this to be racist, but I just discovered this today while looking on Lyte's Twitter.

The question now is if all these developers are from Foreign Countries perhaps it is the reason the community isn't doing so well becuase they do not understand gaming especially when it is in the U.S, and how U.S gamers act and respond.

Based on the fact that that's just a link to his twitter and not a specific tweet, and based on the fact that he's said nothing in the last several days that pertains to this topic, I can only guess that you're posting that link to point out his profile picture.

You want Riot to lay off Jeffrey, an American employee living in Santa Monica, CA, because he is of asian descent and therefore counts as a developer from a foreign country who does not understand gaming in the US.

I was about to point out that this is mind-bogglingly racist, but then I noticed your disclaimer that you were not posting this to be racist. If not for that warning, I would have made a terrible mistake. Thank you for taking the more mature stance and not being mind-bogglingly racist.

Originally posted by zekeofev

Puzzle games are not fun if you just look up the answers.

The problem with google and its relation to puzzle games is puzzle games cannot be competitive anymore. If there is a puzzle involved and there are multiple people in competition to solve something (such as a quest for quick leveling) and it can be looked up then it will be and it is foolish not to.

An example of a puzzle based system destroyed by information technology: Tapers in AC has certain combinations that would unlock spells. Once the forumlas were figured out it was foolish to not look up the spells rather then burn up countless mats in experimentation. Would you really grind for hours to get the materials so they could be consumed as you try to figure out the recipies for your next tier of spells?

Myself, as someone who likes to be competitive and enjoys puzzles will never again be allowed to fufill both desires at the same time. Which is sad.

If you are glad that everything it can be looked up its because you either dislike puzzles or you had some bad design thrown at you where it was needless complexity. But please be able to see it from the other side that puzzles basically cannot exist anymore.

This is just what I was going to post. Playing through a game without looking anything up is fun, but in an MMO you're implicitly in competition with others. I enjoy being competitive and I enjoy puzzles, but I don't think online games are a good place to combine the two. As you say, it's foolish not to look up the answer. You're stuck with the choice of either ruining your experience or handicapping yourself into oblivion.

With Google and YouTube and game-specific wikis being so pervasive, the only way a puzzle could work in an MMO is if it's a one-time thing so that there's a strong incentive to not share information. And then you're stuck mostly catering to uberguilds with the resources to throw 80 people at a zone to hunt down a rare wotzit.

For anyone who is too used to the WoW formula to understand how a quest could be hard or why you might need to Google it, FFXI is still up and running and has some bizarre leaps of logic that you're supposed to make for most of its quests and missions. For example, I just did the second mission from the Crystalline Prophecy expansion the other day. The previous mission ends with someone saying to you: "The Seedspall Roseum, the Seedspall Caerulum, and the Seedspall Viridis... We must recover them, and quickly. Before they fall into the wrong hands... If those nosy Goblins were to stumble across them, one can only imagine what effect the power of the crystal might have..." From just this hint—and nothing else anywhere in the game pointing you in the right direction—you're supposed to go to Rolanberry Downs and fight goblins until one of them drops a Jug of Greasy Goblin Juice. (This is by no means the only place that goblins can be found; they are present in very nearly every zone in the game.) If you then examine a nondescript question mark spot elsewhere in the zone, a goblin spawns who drops one of the Seedspalls. Then you go to two other zones and repeat the process, killing goblins for an item and examining a ??? spot to fight a boss. In each of the zones, the ??? is up on a hill that you can't climb up, so you have to pass through a high level dungeon zone to get to that part of the zone.

It would be possible to play the game for weeks or months without ever stumbling upon the Goblin Juice, especially because Rolanberry Downs is an unpopular low level area. And even if you did, you'd have no reason to suspect that it was related to this mission. And again, even if you thought it was, it might be months more before you ever figured out where to go with it. This might as well have been a one-time event, because the only players who had any fun with it were the ones solving it back when every chat channel was ablaze with conjecture on where you get the seedspalls. In other words, for the couple of hours after the expansion was released. For anyone playing the game long after that point (like me), there's no way I'd just try to figure it out on my own. It would be a futile effort, and it wouldn't even be what the developers intended. They made it fairly mystifying on purpose so that it would be a fair challenge for a whole server, not for one person. You're supposed to either have a whole server backing you up, or a wiki walking you through it. It's only the second mission of that storyline too, so it's not as though they want you to get tripped up on it and fail to solve it for months.

I really liked FFXIV's implementation about 3-4 months after release. You could set up 2 NPC vendors in one of several instanced merchant zones. Anything you were selling that fit the theme of that zone (Jewelry, Ammo, Crystals, etc.) was tax free, everything else had a small tax on all sales. People looking for a particular item could specify that item, and all NPCs selling that item would light up. But you still had to go from zone to zone checking each marked vendor if you wanted to be sure you were getting the best price. If you were in a hurry (or knew at once that the item was priced fairly), you could just grab it from the first one you saw. Since the 3 main cities each had their own set of market zones, it mattered where you went to buy and sell certain materials or intermediate items. I thought it was a perfect compromise between convenience and player-based economy.

It was universally hated. There's no chance whatsoever that the FFXIV reboot will have anything but a super-generic central auction house, and the crafting will inevitably suffer as a result.

"Who said anything about the masters being among the players?"

Then you're just talking about going to an NPC to learn a new skill. Nothing revolutionary about that. The part that you put in about having to compete against other PCs for the right to advance is interesting, but it came out of nowhere. The discussion was about whether hiding the mechanics is a valid way of making the game more difficult and rewarding.

"For some reason many people are more interested in having the control of their skills than understanding what are they for... what do they mean for you.

I hope you get it now

Edit: when you are selecting a weapon or a class you should understand it and I dont mean knowing how to control them more efficiently, but learn what kind of things they promote..."

Theming is a good thing, I agree. The more characterization you can imbue in the character classes, the better. If players view a Ranger and a Mage as pretty much the same class, you're not doing enough to differentiate them thematically, and players who generally pick Mage because they like what it means to be a Mage will probably not enjoy your game's Mages. But I would argue that strong characterization and visible mechanics are not mutually exclusive. More to the point, hiding mechanics does not automatically improve the game's theming or any other aspect.

Originally posted by Psy410

This doesn't mean that players would always have to discover everything by experimentation, this means that if you want to learn how to use a different tool you will need a master to teach you all its different possibilities and the true meaning behind it (or what, do you think they should be defined solely by their practical implementations?).


A master. So, you mean the internet, right?

That old romantic master/apprentice notion is long dead. We will never go back to the days where a handful of gurus within the game have extraordinary knowledge, and only pass it on to people they deem worthy. This was possible back in the days of dial-up, because the only convenient way to pass off information about the game was inside the game. This is the Wiki age. Anything that a "master" could teach you in-game, a wiki page and YouTube video can teach EVERYONE out of game. The cat's out of the bag. You can't go back.

Originally posted by Psy410

Hey, isn't that more interesting than the typical shorelist we get in mmos, everyone would have a bigger purpose than leveling up and getting all the good stuff, (understanding that the way of doing things is more important than the end result) there would be different ideologies and not everything would be about who is more capable and who has all the answers. You would see a group of pacifist players that defend each other and learn ways to disable instead of killing and they would probably consider themselves superior to a group of pillagers that burn everything and attack in the middle of the crisis. 

That is a fantastic leap of logic. How exactly did you get from "hide the mechanics of combat" to "everything would be about who has all the answers, gangs of pacifist monks would learn to disable without killing, everyone would have a bigger purpose than levelling up"? You lost me.

Originally posted by fenistil

Seems I am one of that few then.  I don't like when all mechanics in game are uncovered. I like when significant amount of them are hidden.  That is something that was preety common in old single rpg's and even if I remember correctly in first mmorpg's. 

I liked it.   Makes a experimentation, thinking and assuming / risking not knowing exact output a core gameplay and that is fun.

When all or almost all mechanics are uncovered, 'optimal' calculated and mathematically proved without any uncertanity builds pop up much sooner which is not fun.


Thinking, experimenting, uncertanity, making decision based on unproven assumptions, experiments and intuition, surpise, figuring and looking and so on are all very nice things in game imo.

I also enjoy using experimentation and intuition in games. Regardless of what kind of game I'm playing, I refuse to look up anything about the game other than the controls, so that I'm going through the game being surprised, experimenting, and using intuition. I feel that I can get the most authentic experience that the developers intended by going through the game with no knowledge other than what I discovered myself. Except for multiplayer.

I have long since abandoned this rule for multiplayer games. Competitive experimenting, or whatever you want to call it, doesn't appeal to me. If I have an advantage over my opponent because I understand something about the game that they don't, I would tell them what I know rather than continuing to beat them. I don't consider myself more skilled just because I know something they don't, and I don't think that losing to me repeatedly without understanding why is a good way to learn or a fun way to play a game.

And even a purely PvE MMO is competitive in a Keeping Up With The Joneses kind of way. You want to be as high level as the other people in the game, you want abilities that are as strong as theirs, you want equipment that is as cool-looking and powerful as theirs. It's a competition of a.) who has to most time to spend, and b.) who makes the best use of their time. I consider myself skilled at an MMO if I can make better use of my time than other people... if I can earn more money and experience in less time, if I can die less often, if I can get around quicker, if I can avoid obvious wastes of time. I don't consider it cheating to look up how the system works because I don't value competitive experimenting. I don't think someone who is better at digging up answers about the mechianics through experimentation is more skilled, so I don't like the idea of a multiplayer game turning that into an important skill by obscuring the mechanics.

Originally posted by Renoaku

For those who are not aware over my last suspension which was due to trolls I contacted Riot Support, And they told me pretty much two copy and paste automated responses copy and pasting the summoners code to me which was completely useless.

I asked Riot what they were going to do about the people in my games who broke the summoners code, and the TOS cursing at me and other people in the game, and their answer was an automated response twice, Absolutely nothing.

But here is something even better which can be proven since its on their own forums.  Based on the Tribunal there is no reason this person should have been punished simply for having some bad games. Meanwhile Lyte the GM comes out and claims that it was deserved but I have yet to see by the community that this is true or proof that this person actualy has done what lyte has said behaving badly in PreGame chat?

IF lets say Lyte was telling the truth then Riot themselves should have suspended his account, not the tribunal.

This proves right here that the Tribunal is run by trolls, and it has major flaws which need to be fixed, I have told Riot Games many times as a company my concerns for the players who are under 18 and are playing the game, and my concerns about the tribunal.

I have not got a single response about any of it by Riot in other words I do not think they are planning on improving the tribunal.

This game needs new management, and is remind me of Mortal Online.

In that very same thread, Lyte said:


This is an example of a case that the Tribunal is not extremely effective at resolving because the player is extremely negative in more subtle ways such as in pre- and post-game chat.


In the last ban, the one that you posted a link to, he didn't deserve a guilty verdict from the Tribunal. There simply was no evidence of deliberate wrongdoing. Lyte investigated and said that while the Tribunal was probably mistaken in voting to Punish based on those logs, he chose not to rescind the ban because his investigation revealed evidence (not present in the Tribunal case) that showed the player was frequently trolling in subtle ways. Essentially, the Tribunal came to the right conclusion but for the wrong reason.

Whether you agree or disagree with what happened in this situation, this is WAY more justice that you would get in another moba or an MMO. Anywhere else, you'd file a report if someone broke the rules and you'd have no idea whether anyone would ever read it. Or, if you got a ban, you could beg and plead for someone to take a second look and you'd NEVER get anything but an automated response*. If you posted on th forums for either reason, your thread would be closed without comment because the people running the game won't talk publicly about the suspension or banning of a particular account. With Riot, if nothing else, at least you know that your reports are being reviewed and that people do end up being punished for breaking even minor rules. With Riot, if nothing else, at least you know that you can post about your ban on the forums and get feedback from the pool of people who vote on Tribunal cases.

The guy you linked complained about the fact that he was banned unfairly. Even though he's just one guy, and even though he's someone who has received multiple bans in the past (making it pretty unlikely that he was innocent), one of the highest ranking guys in the company looked into his case to make sure it wasn't an unfair ban. Tell me honestly that you think that's on par with Mortal Online.


*and I know what you're thinking: "But all I got was an automated response!" That's most likely because of what you were asking and how you asked it. I've spent time on the Tribunal forums and can tell you that some people who submit Support tickets do receive actual responses written by real people. If all that you have to say to Riot is that the Tribunal sucks and they're run by trolls, why would they dignify that with a real response?

Originally posted by Helleri
All, that and people still hang out at the Grand Exchange all day (our version of an AH). I can remember lotro having a lot to supposedly do...still every one hung out at the AH. A game like AIka...not so much there, and only one major city, though one can argue there is a lot of gambling and things to attend to... people still spend a large part of their time at the AH/banking area.
I think that is just how people are, changing things in games to force them to go against what is already their strong tendency when the alternative in most cases is provided and they ignore it would sap some of the fun, imo.

It's more than just how people play games, it's about how people interact even in real life. You used to have to see someone face-to-face to talk to them, then phones became popular and you could call them as long as you were in your house and they were in their house. Then cell phones became popular and you could talk to anyone anywhere. Then texting became popular and you could talk to multiple people anywhere, anytime, even asynchronously, and even if you were talking to someone face-to-face at the same time (as rude as that may be to some). Can't be helped though... face-to-face interaction has been greatly devalued.

It took us a long time to get to where we are now, but MMOs have always been like that. You can talk to anyone, anywhere, even multiple people at once. Standing ten feet away from them has little value in terms of communication. Outside of some emotes with animations, there's nothing you can communicate to a character standing next to you that you couldn't communicate to a character at the bottom floor of a distant dungeon.

Socialization doesn't require proximity but transactions do, so that's why everyone hangs out at the location where you buy, sell, and store items. You would have to try very hard to give people an incentive to meet face-to-face to socialize, and even more of an incentive to do it in a location where they can't perform other necessary transactions. It'd be a hell of a challenge, and not something that a ton of people would even appreciate...

How then do you determine where a player gets hit?  Roll randomly?  So instead of taking a fixed number of hits to die, a player has a random chance of dying or not on each hit after the first one?  That could be a huge nuisance unless a game lets you dodge most damage.

If the foe feels like bitting you and you dont move when it jumps for it, then you get bitten in the neck and start loosing red but if you hold a blocking key in the right momment or move then you only get stunned or tackled at the very much. When you say nuisance I say excitement, this will make you actually feel something when you think of attacking something scary. It suddenly becomes important, the real nuisance is to have it all frivolously calculated and without any real worry but the lazy burden of respawning with an insignificant penalty in a near location or waiting for your skills to load again.

Most of the things you wrote aren't appealing to me, but I especially wanted to address this point because it does come up fairly often. The argument you're making—if I'm reading you right—is that revealing the mechanical minutiae behind a game goes hand-in-hand with making the game easier and less exciting.

However, I think that complex mechanics are necessary for deep and satisfying gameplay, and it's an enormous mistake to try to hide a complex mechanical system from the player. It just leaves them feeling as though they don't know what to do to improve, or don't understand the advantages and disadvantages of a particular choice.

As just one example, let's say that a player in your hypothetical game has a choice between using a two-handed sword or a sword and buckler. Your game's mechanics do differentiate between these two equipment styles in some way; it's not just a cosmetic change. A player can tell that things tend to die sooner when he uses the two-hander, but he can't figure out what the advantage is of using the sword and buckler. Maybe the timing on the block is a little more forgiving, or the stun duration on a block is a little shorter, or there's a chance to block attacks on some areas of the body even without hitting the block key. But since the game doesn't tell him, he doesn't know. The only way he'd know is through a lot of experimentation.

Let's extend the example just a bit further. This hypothetical player decides to just go ahead with sword and buckler. Some time later, he finds or makes a large shield. Now, is this a straight upgrade in every way, or is it a tradeoff? Maybe the larger shield makes his aim just a little bit worse. Maybe it makes run just a little bit slower, or tire just a little bit sooner. Or perhaps the larger shield is superior to the buckler in every way and there's no advantage to sticking to a buckler. Again, a lot of experimentation would be required to find out, and even after that he might not know for sure.

Hiding the numbers means that players have to spend more time thinking about and talking about the mechanics. You just made a game that has digging for answers about the combat mechanics as a core gameplay element. Few people are looking for that in any game, let alone an MMO; MMOs tend to revolve around progression and socialization. That's why they put all the numbers right in the tooltips... because they're not making a game that's about digging for hidden numbers.





Originally posted by aWRAY
Originally posted by jpnz

It always amuses me that people expect only 'nice' people when there are 70 Million accounts.

That's 10x the amount of people that live in Los Angelos.

If I go to LA do I expect only to meet 'nice' people? No.

So why would anyone expect that in a game where there are 10 times more people?

I don't get the logic.

People just like to come on here, stand on their little box, and complain. And then they say "Wah wah the community" instead of putting the blame on the individual who upset them. This thread could apply to ANY online game. LoL is just an easy target due to its popularity.

Not really, it's more than that. You don't interact with people as intimately in MMOs. If someone's bothering you, it's nothing to disregard them or mute them. You interact much more closely with strangers in a moba so they have more opportunity to get under your skin.

There's also the team aspect behind it. If your team loses, you lost, so you look bad. But if you can blame someone on the team for the loss, then that means you didn't necessarily do bad. And if you do anything wrong, you've got incentive to blame someone else proactively, before they can start blaming you. There isn't as much of a focus on "winning" in other massively multiplayer games, so this situation doesn't happen as often.

P.S. As an aside to willy123096, opinions are fine and everything but Evelynn was faaar from OP at that time. In fact, prior to patch (July 19, one month before Rengar's release), Evelynn was considered the worst champion in the entire game, hands down. Eve was the pick of choice for trolling your team or forcing people to dodge. She was absolutely worthless for anything other than stomping noobs (which you can honestly do with just about any champion). She was completely remade in patch to be MUCH stronger, and received more buffs to all of her abilities in the two patches that followed. At absolutely no point leading up to Rengar did they Riot announce "We're giving Eve a nerf and it's necessary because she's OP."

Originally posted by joonkp1976

Yay~!  An agreer~!  Well I would make alliance with the enemy for more profit since offering such multiple games package subscription WOULD indeed increase the subscription volumn I think...  :>:>:>

How many people out here would subscribe to the game just because of this deal? I mean, if you've got someone who has accounts with multiple games, you're losing money on them (because they would have paid for both subscriptions at full price, and now you're charging them less). The only way you'd make more money is if there's someone who is subscribed to one game, and thinks "I'm playing Game A right now, and I would also like to play Game B, but I decided not to and the deciding factor was money." There are so few people who are in that position. For most people, the reason they're not playing 2 (or more!) MMOs at once is because of the time commitment, not the cost.

Games are designed to engage you in some way, to allow you to experience something, to fulfill a desire to experience something. That 'something' might be a challenge, or an interesting story, or pretending to be somebody else. It might be a chance to show an aspect of yourself to others, or a chance to show others that you're more skilled than them.

There are many things that a game can offer you. It can offer you an experience based around discovery, if that's what you're looking for. Or expressing yourself. But you gain nothing by saying "Well, I don't want WoW or RIFT because those are games—what I want is a world." The thing you want is also a game! It's a game designed around core aesthetics that aren't even that uncommon. You may as well drop the act that there's something special about games that don't have any game in them.

Because—and think really hard about this, now—what are you accomplishing by badmouthing games in favor of so-called worlds? All you're trying to do is the same thing people did to gamers in general before video gaming went mainstream. You're name calling. The thing you're asking for is no less of a game than Black Ops or Borderlands or WoW; those are just designed to deliver a different experience (challenge, grinding, narrative). Describing your preferred game as something other than a game, something more than a game, is just pretentious.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Not everything needs to be an MMO. LoL is a good game not because of the storyline, or world (there is none) design. It is a good game because of good e-sport gameplay.

I agree. Little of the gameplay would be preserved in the translation from MOBA to MMO. Without the gameplay, all you have left are the characters and setting. As much as I like LoL, I would have no particular inclination to play a completely different game with Malphite, Graves, and Sona in it.

Why would there ever be a gaming company anywhere that didn't value the opinions of the people who play their game? That's laughably absurd. "Let's not pay attention to what people are saying about our game unless they pay us." I dare you to find a marketing class that teaches that.
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