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All Posts by Disdena

All Posts by Disdena

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Originally posted by Dewm

But the point of my OP was, expectations have not risen. if anything we expect less from games.


In the old days, we expected player housing

we expected in-depth crafting

we expected a good varity of classes

we expected a large world days the newer games rarely have any of those features, and if they do its touted as some great accomplishment, some feet that was really difficult, that no game has ever done before.

I'm still waiting for some examples of this. Can you name an MMO from the old days that did poorly because it lacked one of those features? You can't say people expected those features if they were happily playing games that lacked those features.

Back then, MMO developers could put whatever mix of features into a game, and people would play it as long as it appealed to them in some way and was polished at least to the point of being playable. Over time, as more and more MMOs came out, some of them had a large world but bad crafting, some had good crafting but no housing, etc. As people saw a more diverse playing field, they no longer had to put up with games that had features they didn't like or lacked features that they cared about.

Originally posted by Dewm
Originally posted by Disdena

Did you play FFXI at the start of the Chains of Promathia expansion?

Did you like it?

Then why can't you play it now unless the graphics are better? Higher expectations? (I'm asking this as someone who played FFXI for a few years at release and then resubscribed last year.)

I played FFXI from the start of the NA launch (I think it was 2003?), and I played untill around 2006 where I quite because of school...and it was just taking to much of my time, (literally 5-8 hrs a day)"

I came back in 2010 (I think thats what it was) and with the Abyssea expansion the whole game changed (and not for the better IMO), I tried to play for a while, but the new expansion + the really small population + dated graphics + FFXIV announced, I just had a hard time staying interested.


I still loved going back and doing the old school stuff, (grinding in the dunes, exploring area's and what-not), but the population was so low in those areas you just couldn't get a party. Most people just leveled to max in a week or so with the Abyssea leveling system..


...anyways it still makes me kinda sad, but it doesn't change the fact that we have moved backwards options/complexity wise in the last 10 years.

We're in roughly the same boat there. I also played from launch til about 2006, and my main mode of play now that I've returned is "doing the old school stuff" with a small group of friends rather than doing a fast-track powerlevel on the content designed to do exactly that.

But here's where my view differs from yours. I remember back when the game launched, people had a lot of things to gripe about. Jobs were imbalanced. Parties took too long to form because they were too job dependent. Quests and missions required walkthroughs because they were too vague or required unreasonable leaps of logic. The easiest and most accessible camp spots were overcrowded, because faraway difficult zones weren't feasible for pickup parties. High level parties often fought the same exact models of enemies (not even palette-swapped!) that they fought in the newbie zone, which only added to the monotony of the grind. Travelling from place to place was inconvenient even when it wasn't hazardous. New abilities came far too infrequently for non-mage jobs. Inventory space was very limited. Travelling around was inconvenient even when it wasn't dangerous. The interface was clunky. Alt-tabbing and windowed mode weren't allowed. PlayOnline made logging in take forever, and made billing confusing. I'm not even scratching the surface with this list.

Now, most of these things are things that I don't mind. But there were people who did. They minded them a lot. And they kept playing anyway. That's what I mean when I say that expectations have risen. Back then, you could make a game that had all of these... "frustrations", and people would still flock to the game and stick with it for years. That doesn't happen so much anymore. You'll see someone on these forums cry "Why don't they make a game where you can do X, Y, and Z!?" And when someone responds "Well, Such-and-Such game has all of those features", they just say "Oh, the characters aren't customizable enough in that game" or "I don't like the anime-ish art style" or "The housing is instanced" or "I don't like that you can't swim." If a game doesn't have EVERYTHING you want, it's not worth playing.

Can you imagine if people felt that way in 1999? If people were unwilling to settle for a game that had some features they didn't like, how many subscribers do you think EQ would've had? 50? 20?

Originally posted by Dewm
Originally posted by aktalat
Originally posted by Disdena

Expectation is subjective. Your opinion on the expectations of the community is doubly subjective. What's your reasoning for saying that expectations have not risen?


An example would be Age of Empires Online (what a way to kill a franchise)


But anyways, AoEO is really just a RTS with a lobby system. You have your "home city" which is just a lobby to either do, solo quest, or play multiplayer with up 2-4 people... how is that a MMO?!!?


But by todays standards.. it is.

That's a completely different topic. I'm talking about what you created this thread to discuss: whether or not MMO players have higher expectations now than we did back then. The looser criteria for being considered an MMO is moot.

Originally posted by Dewm

And thats exactly why I've been waiting the last few years for AA.. its not everything I want.. but it does look to be the closest thing.


What I would LOVE is an almost exact remake of FFXI start at the Chains of Promathia expansion, with updated graphics. Thats what I had hoped FFXIV would be... but instead it was just a horrible horrible car wreck. (but they are coming out with FFXIV 2.0) maybe....

*turns blue holding breath*

Did you play FFXI at the start of the Chains of Promathia expansion?

Did you like it?

Then why can't you play it now unless the graphics are better? Higher expectations? (I'm asking this as someone who played FFXI for a few years at release and then resubscribed last year.)

Expectation is subjective. Your opinion on the expectations of the community is doubly subjective. What's your reasoning for saying that expectations have not risen?

Originally posted by c0exist
Not sure if anyone has posted this or if this is available in other mmo's but I think a good idea would be to have different types of servers.  Instead of just the usual PVE and PVP servers how about a "hard mode" server.  And by hard mode i mean less exp per mob kill, mobs are more difficult so forced partying is in play, and of course since the world is harder there will be better drops and exclusive drops to the harder servers. 

Why is this necessary?

Creating two separate servers means that those two groups of people will never meet. So why would you need to make sure that people on the easymode servers don't have access to certain drops? They cannot possibly influence your enjoyment of the game; they're on a completely different server.

Originally posted by g4m3sh4rk

As the title suggests this thread is about the current state of mmo gaming. After reading through countless hours of threads, the general theme seems to be why game x sucks. As it also occurs to me, there are more then ample posts dipicting peoples loss of interest in the genre as a whole. Some, even, went as far as to say that recent MMO's fail because of a lack of enginuity. Well I say we could do better. I say we, the gamming community, could in-fact create an rpg that can be shared by all with an epic lore, septuple phase boss fights that last for longer then the usual time, and a great method for which to deliver both story and challenge. Best of all, we as a community could do it with out falling prey to the common short commings of our predisessors.  


So... if you could make an MMO how would you do it and why?

Epic lore? Boss fights?? Story??? Challenge????


You there. The one reading this post on this forum right now. Why aren't you exercising? Don't you know how good it is for you? Stand up, do some jumping jacks, some push-ups, grab a dumbell and do a few curls. Throw your shoes on a jog around the block. It only takes a few minutes! The health benefits are astronomical. Work out for a few minutes and you're potentially adding another day to your life expectancy as your risk of heart disease and obesity go down.

But you're not stopping to exercise right now. (Maybe you are... kudos to you, I wouldn't do that just because an internet guy pretended to address me directly.) You can't see the effect it has on your body, so there's less gratification involved in doing so. You don't get clear and immediate feedback saying that your health has improved as the result of 20 push-ups.

That's the main draw of gaming in general, if you can believe it. It's why it feels fun to jump on Koopas for an hour but not fun to bag groceries for an hour (even though the paycheck at the end of the week is a far better reward). Video games give you immediate positive feedback for your accomplishments in a way that real life usually does not. Even though the rewards are not "real", we feel more rewarded getting those fake rewards than real rewards like money and long life.

And that is why we have levels to measure progression. "You gained 1400 exp" feels immediately rewarding in a way that levelless progression usually does not. You might be able to say to yourself "Killing this enemy put me a tiny bit closer to the end of this dungeon, which will have a treasure chest, that might give me a piece of the Haste spellrune which, when combined with 9 other pieces, will allow me to cast spells 5% faster." But that reward is too far off. Even if you gain power at the same rate using this method (compared to getting exp and levels from the mobs you're going through), the individual kills will feel less rewarding and you'll feel less of a sense of progress.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

They also break the level disparity problem as most MOBAs start you at level 1 and you level up through the match. While the balance of power can start to swing heavily to one side in a match, the next match starts again with a level playing field.

Level disparity AND equipment disparity AND (outside of instanced battlegrounds) body count disparity. Not to mention the skill disparity that is solved by most MOBA's ranking and matchmaking systems. It is a rare thing to have even a 1v1 fight in an MMO that feels fair, let alone an unorchestrated many-vs-many fight.

I think there are very valid ways for a game to present a challenge that feels good to overcome even though there is no threat of losing. In fact, I might even say that the best kinds of challenges are the ones where losing is synonymous with "haven't won yet."

Probably the best way I can explain this would be to point to the adventure games made by LucasArts and Sierra back in the day. Both were basically the same type of game. You walk around picking up items and using them on other items or on objects in various locations. But in Sierra games, you could die (forcing you to reload from a save) or even worse, you could make a mistake that resulted in an unwinnable game. LucasArts games didn't have either of those. You couldn't accidently miss or misuse a vital item, and trying to do something fatal resulted in a funny message instead.

If a game's meant to test your puzzle-solving ability, games from both of these publishers did that adequately. But Sierra games were also testing your frustration levels, making you replay from a save or start over from the beginning when you (inevitably) screwed up. I don't think that going through that test makes for a better victory. If you find out the answer to the puzzles, that's where the sense of victory should come from.

Where MMOs are concerned, the question of whether you should be beaten often and whether it should sting COMPLETELY hinges upon what kind of core gameplay experience the game is trying to deliver. And wanting to give players a "challenge" is NOT the only prerequisite for invoking frequent defeats with harsh death penalties. You don't need to be defeated to be challenged.

Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Disdena

How many times have you played a game like GTA or Saints Row and decided not to break the law because it would result in a totally effing sweet police chase potentially ending with your magnificent death? That's how effective a bounty system is at stopping ganks.

Well if by death you mean fail and die, for good, no reloading from a save....then that is a good deterent and in a single player game reloading is part of the game design. It is not in an MMO so you can't use a single player game design to justify the deisgn of a multiplayer one.

The only real comparrison would be if you couldn't reload from a save in GA or SR...would you still break the law for that car chase if you knew getting caught ment you would have to stat the game again from the start? If you had to think about it then that proves the point.

I would, if I didn't care about beating the game. That more or less proves my point. Since it is only a game, there is very little reason to care about the consequences, especially if having a high level character with a bunch of cool swag is NOT your goal. Haven't you ever turned on an old SNES game (the kind with limited lives and continues) and done a bunch of goof-off stuff rather than playing the game seriously? Did the Game Over screen make you feel bad after all your lives were gone?

Even in single player games with one life and no saving, it would still be absurd to call police surveillance a deterrent. It would be part of a system where you weigh one risk against another. Gotta get downtown in 2 minutes: drive my car or steal a faster one? I've got 1 cop chasing me: try to lose him or stay on target? You would design it to test the player's decisions, not to punish them for making a morally wrong choice.

How many times have you played a game like GTA or Saints Row and decided not to break the law because it would result in a totally effing sweet police chase potentially ending with your magnificent death? That's how effective a bounty system is at stopping ganks.

Time and time and time again people bring up this notion that "Open world PvP is great, but the reason some people don't like it is that they can be killed for no reason by someone they have no hope of defeating. Let's try to fix that!" It's not fixable, because it's the point of playing the game. You get killed a bunch while becoming stronger and smarter, and your efforts pay off as you get good enough to defend yourself or even attack others.

If the point of bounties and jails is to prevent other players from attacking without cause, then WHY allow them to attack other players without cause? Why build it into the game? You don't have to; most games don't. You are quite literally stating that a feature should be added to the game—one that is not present in most games—and then the players who use that feature should be punished in the harshest way you can think of.

Think back to the GTA example I gave. The point of the Wanted system in that game is certainly not to discourage players from breaking the law. I hope that is obvious. The feature exists in order to create gameplay. You'd have to be a pretty poor game designer to look at GTA and say "The Wanted system needs to have much harsher consequences because right now it's definitely not doing enough to prevent unlawful behavior."

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

I applaud your passion, but...

Nexon America
I have played Vindictus since the start of Closed Beta and over the years the quality of the game servers have plummeted to various lows, and i am fed up with it.

But because i enjoy the game so much, i am not going to simply abandon it like others have.

[Your name]

Can only closed beta testers sign this petition? That kind of limits those who can sign, doesn't it? Otherwise they are liars if they sign it.

If they cared, would this be a problem?
Are you paying them money or playing for free?
How about all the other signers?
What are you threatening them with if they don't comply with your demands of them?
What are you offering them if they do comply?
Do you think they are aware of the problems or not?

Nexon America is a business, not a Government agency that caters to special interest groups. Just like NCSoft (with the CoH closing petition), it does absolutely nothing. *You* have no say in the way they run their business, other than not playing their games. They don't answer to *you* or however many sign this. They answer to their board of directors and investors.

I have been in customer service for many years and know that customers that demand things from a business are the worst customers a business can have. They end up costing the business much more than they give back.

This reminds me of a "hot topic" awhile back in my community. Rush Limbaugh said something offensive. *gasp* Like that isn't to be expected. All these left wingnuts who never listen to the show, nor patronize his sponsors, threaten the local station that carries his show with what? To not listen and support the advertisers with their business that they don't even do now anyways?

Petitions have their place. And when used correctly, they can work wonders. Usually in letting the Government know that the populace so terribly represented by people they voted for is not happy. Petitions have NO place dictating to businesses how to run their show. None of them answer to *you* (general you, in this case).

I have quoted your post, and highlighted all the parts I agreed with in green.

If charged 50 cents to make an account, they could pay for the hosting off of this guy's payments alone.

I think this issue is more closely tied to the concept of "endgame" and a level cap. In any given MMORPG, there may be quests, there may be special dungeons, there may be activities you can do for improved faction standing or money or some alternate currency. But one thing remains the same across virtually every single MMORPG in existence: if you go out and hit ANY sufficiently difficult enemy until it dies, you will gain a discrete amount of progress. Might be in the form of your sword skill improving, might be in the form of an xp bar filling up. Whatever it is, you get measurably stronger in some way. The ANY is bolded because that's the key word. It doesn't matter what you fight as long as it's strong enough.

At some point, this stops happening. You're no longer allowed to go out and hit ANY monster with your sword. You may have a dozen different things you can do to progress your character—raid dungeons for better gear, perform missions for quest points, farm valuable materials to sell, camp a rare spawn—but from that point on you can never again progress in the way that you were able to for the entire game.

Players pay a lot of attention to where this point is, and how much you can do after reaching this point ("endgame"). I would really like to see some discussion about why endgame exists as a deliberately different mode of playing. Why are you allowed to achieve progression in one way for so long (potentially months or years of play) and then told you can't earn progression that way anymore? This is basically just what the OP was asking, but with the focus on XP vs. no XP rather than solo vs. forced group.

What's happening here (and in a lot of other threads) is that the OP has a particular experience in mind. "Wouldn't it be fun if I were in a game and yadda yadda yadda happened... let me think of a way to design a game around this imagined experience." The end result is a simply awful idea for a game, because it was designed with just that ideal scenario in mind.

Even though it's not an MMO, I'll use Arkham Asylum as an example. Imagine the best, most epic experience someone could possibly have in that game, the kind that makes you jump up and fist pump, and tell the story to everyone you know for weeks afterwads.

Hmm... Batman goes into a room, and there's 9 guards, armed with a variety of weapons, and he beats them all with a flawless full combo.

No, go more epic than that. Okay, uh, one hit will kill him, so there's a huge amount of pressure to make sure he doesn't get hit.

More epic than that. Um, there's a really short time limit? So at the same time he's trying not to get hit, he has to beat them as fast as he possibly can, and there's just barely enough time to pull it off.

Make it more epic. He only gets one chance at the fight. Either his save gets erasd for losing, or it's a special bonus fight that you can only ever attempt once.

More epic. The enemies are unique enemies that he's seeing for the first time, so he can only rely on his reflexes and not memorized patterns or tells.

Put all of this together, and you have gamer nirvana. Can you even picture it? You walk into a room and 9 brand new enemies assault you. In 30 seconds, you have to beat them without taking a single hit and getting your save erased, despite having to figure out their unique abilities on the fly. You pull it off just barely in an absolutely amazing display of skill and coordination with just a split second to spare. It would probably be the best 30 seconds of gaming in your entire life.

It would also make an amazingly bad game, because the planets would have to align for that to have even a chance of happening to a single person. 99.9999% of the people who played the game would have a much worse experience trying to play that game. You shouldn't ever design a game completely around the best possible thing that could happen, and I think that's the mistake being made here. Frankly, I think that most people with big design ideas for sandbox MMOs make the same mistake. As they describe their dream game, they're planning it around the 1-in-a-million epic experience they would love to have rather than considering what the average experience or worst-case experience in the same game world would be.

Originally posted by Siveria

Actually its more wow-clones that is killing the indistry, since wow has come out name one AAA mmo that hasn't just copy and pasted most of its gameplay from wow. Only one I can name is FF14. WoW was only as successful as it was due to a classic case of perfect timing on its release. If the gameplay was all that good and how the game flows, then all these wow-clones wouldn't be crashing and burning in less than 6 months. They do poorly because people who aren't playing wow anymore and are looking for a mmo, aren't interested in bascally play the exact same game with a new skin (rift, tsw, swtor etc all suffer from this).

Why name-drop FFXIV as a counter-example, then turn around and immediately say that WoW clones crash and burn in less than 6 months? XIV crashed faster and harder than any of the WoW clones. DC Universe Online is another example of a AAA MMO that was pretty substantially different than WoW but suffered a mass exodus shortly after launch and went F2P in 10 months.

You can't say that AAA WoW clones are doing terrible because they copied WoW. AAA MMOs that are not named World of Warcraft are doing bad in general, and the ones doing especially bad are the ones that were major departures from the WoW formula.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Onomas

Ill never play anything with a cash shop.

And if you google it, americans spend more on cash shops in a month than your average gamer with 1 year sub for 15/month. I mean seriously, is this an issue? 50 cents a day?

But main problem i feel, is no good games worth the money. If you havent noticed the newer mmo's are kind of slacking in all departments now.

"Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs."

"When zooming in on transaction data for a single month, the ARPPU for individual titles in May 2012 was $17 compared to $27 in October 2011"

So yes, you are right, the paying ones spent $17 .. a bit more than $15. But note two things:

1) A majority (27 out of 50m) did NOT pay.

2) The amount spent by those who pay is decreasing (from $27 to $17 in two years)

"Free-to-play or subscription MMOs" may encompass more territory than you think, based on the group that study's coming from. Does that include MMOs like Farmville, The Sims, and Magic: the Gathering Online? We consider those substantially different than real MMOs, but they have the potential to all get lumped together into the same market by surveys like this.

I came back to FFXI earlier this year after a 7 year break. I recommend it, but only if you're into that classic slow MMO. Even with greatly increased exp and a lot more options for getting around the world quickly, it's still nowhere near as streamlined as [insert modern WoW clone here]. That's what I enjoy about it.
Originally posted by XAPGames

People who play free are built into the business model.


They make the game world more lively by increasing population.  (an empty game is a dead game)

They often bring in other players, which reduces advertising costs and increases revenue because people they bring in might pay.

They provide fresh meat for PVP.  (in a game with all whales in top-shelf gear, the whales wouldn't have an advantage)

They might end up spending money.


Dev / publishers don't give out free access because they want to lose money on them.  They give out free access because they want to use the player as a way to make money.

Agreed. I don't know how there are so many people talking about online gaming who can't understand this concept.

The people running the game want free players. There is no company anywhere that celebrates when "freeloaders" leave their game.

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