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All Posts by Disdena

All Posts by Disdena

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Originally posted by Daranar

Sorry, perhaps my word choice was poor, how about dividing them up into "Immersive" and "Surface" players?  I chose "Hardcore" vs "Casual" just because thats the common division on any issue, this looking a few specific.   But I'd also like to say I think people who complain about nerfs are from both camps I am attempting to establish.  The Immersive player gets upset because his character who he has become attached to is becoming weaker by no doing of his own through adventures, while the Surface player is upset because the character he chose now can't consume as much content with as much ease and it becomes perhaps more of a challenge.

I have to say, i love how all you take out of that is what defines the words Hardcore and Casual.  Perhaps you are a "Surface" reader? :P

Well, pretty much any time you divide MMO players (or gamers in general) along a line, you usually do not end up with a situation where each side "thinks that what each other wants in an MMO is retarded". Most of the time, the disdain is fairly one-directional. At least that's my observation. For example, I've never heard the word "hardcore" thrown around as a pejorative. But "casual"? Absolutely.

The way that you've described them, the "Immersive" player sounds far more likely to look down on the "Surface" player. I mean, just look back through your post at how positively you described the hardcore/immersive player and how negatively you described the casual/surface player. I don't think this is just because you're biased towards the side that you happen to fall on. I think that any split inevitably involves one side feeling superior to or even feeling disgusted by the other side, and the feeling is rarely mutual.

I think the difference between hardcore and casual is not that clear-cut. The concept of your character being an avatar you control vs. your character being "you" doesn't strike me as a dividing line. If it were, I would definitely put casuals on the "you" side of that line. I think hardcore players are more likely to abandon a less-than-viable character, for example. Like, "2H barbarian got nerfed (or didn't turn out as powerful as I hoped) so I'm ditching it for another class." The character is a tool to achieve a goal rather than an extension of self. This is certainly true for competitive games; choosing a particular character because you like them or identify with them (instead of picking from among the tier 1 characters) is the epitome of casual.

That doesn't apply to all hardcore gamers but the term "hardcore" can mean too many things to really nail down a good definition. To some, hardcore vs. casual is purely a matter of how much you play. People who play 10 hours a day are hardcore, people who play an hour or two a day are casual. For others, it's a matter of their preferred difficulty. Or their level of skill. Or their playstyle. But "casual" already has strong negative connotations attached to it. It's a mistake to pile on "wants rewards with no effort" and "views character and setting as bits and bytes rather than a person and a world" too.

Very informative thread, thank you for it. I fondly remember Aardwolf from my pre-EQ days. :)

Roleplay and positive interaction with other players were certainly the norm back in that era. I sort of want to say that the good community was a result of the focus on roleplay but maybe that's a little bit presumptuous of me.

Originally posted by Renoaku

Over the past years I got 3 suspenisions on my account for no reason at all by a TROLL Tribunal, I asked riot to review these suspensions all they did was Copy-Paste messages to each incident same message everytime refused to review or lift false suspensions

You've posted about your suspensions before. They were deserved. You were not falsely banned.

Let's recap the safeguards that prevent false bans. By claiming that you're an innocent who didn't deserve a ban, you're implying the following:

  • In a large percentage of your games, someone chose to falsely report you even though you broke no rules.
    • Note that reports from untrustworthy players are given reduced weight or ignored. So these are people who typically file valid reports but chose to illegitimately report you.
    • The vast majority of players never even come close to the Tribunal threshold by hitting an unlucky streak of trolls, even if they play very frequently.
  • The majority of Tribunal judges voting on your case were highly-evasive trolls who falsely voted Punish even though you broke no rules.
    • Again, votes from judges who only spam punish or regularly deviate from the community consensus are ignored. So these are judges who vote normally in order to fool the Tribunal algorithms but chose to illegitimately punish you.
  • A member of Riot's Player Support team reviewed your case and, through incompetence or carelessness, upheld the Tribunal's faulty judgment.
    • This was not confirmed until recently, but Riot reviews every Tribunal case before approving a pardon or punishment (source). They have only very recently decided not to review unanimous Tribunal decisions anymore because they are virtually never wrong.
  • All of these things happened to you 4 times: once for the initial warning, and 3 more times for your 3 time bans.
Rather than accepting that you are exhibiting unacceptable behavior that you're unaware of, you choose to believe—against IMPOSSIBLE odds—that you are an innocent who is being successfully framed by trolls, while millions of other innocent people are able to play the game normally without ever getting so much as a warning.

 

Originally posted by Renoaku

2. Riot Games first made the ELO change in solo/duo ranked games, there is no point in playing SOLO/DUO anymore because if you dodge a quene due to trolls trolling like this http://pastebin.com/ixpTGFTP then you loose 10 points from what I was told I do know you loose points though or loose your series game for it. If you loose games due to trolls in any reason you get demoted or possibly get demoted it is stupid it should be based or player K/D/R and stats not just win/loss of a game, in Premade 5v5 Teams it works but in solo it doesn't.

If you show that chat log to ANYONE who plays League, they'll tell you that you were the worst offender on the team. You demanded a lane and refused to play any other, even though two others called that lane before you and you were at the bottom of the pick order. Let me be clear: neither pick order nor call order is absolute. Even in ranked, you should not feel like you are obligated to play support just because you ended up as last pick. (Many players disagree but Riot has my back on this one.) However, that is a situation that comes about because of people with your attitude.

Here's an astonishingly simple test: If I made an exact copy of you and secretly put the two of you onto the same team, how would you get along? Would you work things out or would you mute and report each other? I think the answer's quite clear. As hard as this might be for you to believe, most people would get along just fine on an entire team of self-clones and would manage to play the game without raging at each other...(themselves?) even though some of them wouldn't get to play their preferred champions or roles. If you absorb nothing else from my post, take this one idea to heart. If you, Renoaku, encountered yourself in game, you would want Riot to ban you.

You were insistent and combative from the very first line you typed, and threatened to use the mute tool as a weapon against people before anyone even gave you reason to think that they would harass you. If this is the way you always act, you're on your way to another ban.

Originally posted by Renoaku

3. Riot Just recently fixed it so if you mute a player you have to endure 40 minutes of ping spam, lets say a team mate is trolling just pinging the bush randomly and there is really no one there I need a way to silence their annoying pings all together I do not want to play hearing them I can play better without them

This change was for the players' benefit. League has a good number of toxic players who make offensive and undesired comments towards their teammates. Many players do not want to read what their abusive teammate is typing, but still want to be able to see strategic advice from that player in the form of pings. This places them in a difficult spot: either leave the abusive player unmuted and continue to suffer their rage, or mute them and risk making misplays by failing to rush to a teammate's aid or failing to fall back from a dangerous position. Leaving pings unmuted gives us the best of both worlds. At the same time Riot's making this change, they're also throttling pings so that it's not possible to constantly spam them.

As someone who does not want to see muted teammates' pings, you are in the minority here. Most people do not see map ping as something that is routinely used for trolling, like you do.

 

Originally posted by Renoaku

I am seriously thinking about quitting league because of the annoying ping spams and ear aches I have to endure almost every game first game today, first game yesterday I had to put up with it for 40 minutes of just ping after ping.

Being spammed with pings "almost every game" is an obvious exaggeration unless your definition of ping spam is 2 pings in a row. Here is an interesting exercise for you. Go to http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/League of Legends and start watching a stream. Don't pick anyone well-known, just hop into a channel by some random guy with a few dozen viewers queueing solo. Watch him for a whole game and see if his game has "annoying ping spams" by your definition. See if he reacts to pings in the way that you would react. In time, you will realize that nobody is annoyed by pings to the extent that you are. At worst, you might see someone mutter "geez, enough already" if someone's pinging is really excessive. We don't get upset about it and we don't mute people or turn off our speakers because of it. As I've been pointing out, the issue is with you, not the people you're playing with.

Almost nothing on that list is applicable to MMOs. Interactive fiction adventure games were almost entirely about figuring things out. That was the main mode of gameplay. That doesn't translate well to a genre where thousands of other players share the gamespace with you. I feel like you understood neither the original list in the text document nor the updated list on the blog.

I was 19 and a sophomore in college. A few weeks before it came out, my friends mentioned that they had been reading up on Everquest and that everyone should get a copy ASAP and all play together. For my first character, I made a Human Monk. I remember that my justification for this was that only Humans could be Monks, and I had a habit of deliberately choosing questionable race/class combinations in MUDs. So for this game, since we were all going to play for a long time, I wanted to make sure that I had a viable character.

I remember that there was an /ooc channel and pretty much everyone could be counted on to use it for out-of-character conversations. I would correct people if they used /shout to ask about game mechanics, and I wasn't alone in doing so. I also remember being disproportionately upset about people making new characters and outfitting them with high level equipment. To me, this was no less cheating than using a hack program or a dupe bug, since there's no legitimate way that character could have gotten that weapon themselves.

The issue is that what you are describing is a match. There's a time limit, a goal, and parameters get reset in-between in order to wipe out your accomplishments and failures.

I'm sure you understand that the draw of a permadeath system is the feeling that "If I mess up here, I could lose everything I've worked for all this time!" In a match system (wish I had a better name for that), the draw is the feeling of "If I mess up here, I could lose everything I've worked for since this match started!" It's just like permadeath but on a smaller scale. The consequence for failure is still there, but what you stand to lose is limited to the length of the match. That is the system you described, if I understand it correctly. A smaller scale match where you only stand to lose that which you gained during that week. You lose none of the effort you invested in your "real" character.

So my two questions still stand. What is the appeal of having this take place over the course of a week rather than an hour or two or twelve? And why the obvious oversight that people must log out in order to work and sleep? (Or is the risk of staying online and being killed while you sleep part of the challenge?)

Originally posted by Sephastus

General idea is to have a duplicate world, instanced, where people can play with truly hard perma-death style gameplay & PvP, without having to worry about being at a permanent disadvantage in the ongoing world.

If that's the general idea, what's the reasoning behind having it last a whole week? You're talking about plopping a copy of your character into an alternate battlefield server where—even if you have no out-of-game responsibilities of any kind (school, work, eating)—you lose in 6 days if you log out to sleep for 8 hours. Who does this appeal to? Couldn't you get a lot more people interested by making these Highlander matches last... an hour, tops?

The only time I can recall seeing the term PvPvE was in Aion. It was used to describe combat in the Abyss, which was a territory control war between two player factions (and their guards) and one NPC faction.
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

1) Buy boxes until they eventually got the 1 out of 10 unlocks.

2) Sell the "Force" unlocked accounts, increasing traffic through sites like Gold Farmer sites in China.

3) If you didn't get a 'special' account, you'd feel cheated. This isn't a fun way to start playing the game.

Agreed, especially number 3. The gambling element can be applied to many things in game (loot tables, chance of items breaking, etc.), but it would be a mistake to tie it to the purchase of the game itself. When something incorporates random chance, the draw is supposed to be that after losing, the player feels driven to try again because "maybe next time I'll get lucky". That doesn't apply here.

For me, an economy that involves other players is enough of a draw. Even without having a face-to-face interaction with them, the other players provide a benefit that I couldn't get from a single player game: unpredictability that doesn't come from a random number generator.

If I want to buy a Mythril Greatsword, someone has to have one for sale. Sometimes no one does. And other times, someone does but they're charging more than I want to pay. Other times, I find one for much less than the going price; lucky me! Same goes for selling. If I put an Astral Ring up for sale for a certain price, it might sell quickly or not at all. Someone might undercut me. If there are a lot already for sale, I might hang onto it until the supply dwindles.

If I were playing a single-player game, I would get no value from this randomness because it would be coming from the RNG. And I don't want to be told "No Mythril Greatswords for sale today. Why? Cuz I rolled a 3 lololol" It means more to me if that economic element is merely unpredictable and not purely die-roll random.

There are other reasons I want to play in a game with a massive amount of people, but even setting aside all other kinds of interactions, there is still this and it alone is sufficient for me.

I think the commonly accepted MMO concept that bugs me the most is offering a choice of quest rewards with only one correct choice. Did this start in WoW? It's all over the place now, or at least in every game that has quests with rewards. Rather than just going "Here's some leather gloves, Mr. Thief", they always say "Do you want the Cloth gloves with +Int, the Leather Gloves with +Dex, or the Plate Gauntlets with +Vit?" You can't sell or trade them, so there's no reason to choose a reward that is inappropriate for your class. And it's almost never a toss-up. There are usually choices that you're not allowed to equip. Sometimes, you can't equip ANY of the incorrect choices.

Does this keep getting put into games because picking the right choice from the list makes some players feel smart? Or is it something that gets copied from game to game purely because "the other MMOs do it so it must be a good idea"?

As someone who ran GM/Guide events in EQ, I can vouch for what Loktofeit was saying. It is incredibly difficult to get such an event to run smoothly in the first place—no technical mishaps, no griefers or spammers trying to sabotage it—and even when you do, very few people get the experience that you were shooting for, and the majority walk away confused and/or disappointed. It is not a stretch to say that a good number of player have a more negative than positive experience with those kind of events.

On the topic of putting 1000 devs on a game in order to constantly update it, I will say only this. Despite what you might think, a rather small minority of players experience endgame content. Even in WoW, which has been out since the 1960s or so, only a small fraction of the players currently playing have consumed all the content that the game has to offer. If you factor in all the people who have ever played the game since its release, the number of people who finished everything are the figurative drop in a 50-gallon bucket.

Hiring hundreds of content creators to churn out new items, dungeons, and abilities would only serve the interests of these people who surge to the very front of the pack to take on every last challenge that the game has to offer. To the rest of us, what good is an expansion's worth of content every week if we only put in 10-20 hours in a week? The overwhelming majority of players don't suffer from a lack of content, so everything that those 1000 people crank out would go to waste.

It doesn't fit exactly with the concept you're talking about, but in EverQuest, there was only one Crystal Claw of Veeshan. It was given out once on each server in a GM event; the person who received it also got a unique title added to their name. But it was NoDrop, so they didn't have the option to sell it or give it away. I believe there were other items like this associated with large events that advanced the game's storyline.
Originally posted by torabi1010

Characters start to look the same. Hell, the games start to look the same. The weapons and armor are compartmentalized to a point where you get these items based on unlock system. That is what any tiered system will be. An armor or weapon unlock system that allows all characters to upgrade their items based on a series of parameters, usually including level of avatar, level of item, or class-based distinctions. 

Looking at this paragraph, I'm having a very tough time figuring out what you think "compartmentalized" means. The context is unclear. Do you mean that choice of what equipment to get is too easy? Or that the choice is less interesting because you are too informed about all of the options? Or something else entirely?

Mmmm, it is a good start but could use some improvement. If the objective is to provide an incentive for players to keep their party members alive (and by association, to make them feel good about keeping their party members alive), then you can do this a lot more directly by just applying a death penalty (xp debt or whatever) to the whole group when someone dies. No need to make up a new synergy system.

But then the first obvious question is "What if someone in my group dies and it's not my fault? Why should I get punished?" This question is relevant whether we use your system or mine, but it stands out more in my system because the penalty is applied so directly. When you think about it, this is just a reversal of a common gripe (from tanks, mostly) about traditional death penalties: "What if I die and it's the fault of someone in my group? Why should I get punished?" Before trying to tackle any of these questions, you want to figure out what purpose parties serve in your game. How do you want party members to feel about each other in terms of their shared responsibilities and rewards? Is that feeling different for pickup groups compared to groups of guildmates? You've got to give these things some thought before you come up with a new system.

It's also worth thinking about how you want people to think about death. Sacrificing yourself to save the party is a pretty noble thing to do. Should it be punished? To tell you the truth, even though the game as a whole doesn't appeal to me, I like what GW2 did with death. When you "die", you're just knocked down. You become a liability to the party because now you can't really contribute much to the combat and someone needs to stop performing their role if they want to get you back on your feet mid-combat. This allows players to die strategically, as in "I got downed, and it was the right thing to do so we could win the fight" or "I let this party member get downed, and it was the right thing to do so we could win the fight." Having players die and feel good about it (while still feeling bad when they're actually defeated) is a difficult thing to pull off.

Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by Disdena

especially when nearly every single one of those games is still running but has almost no players.

I'm only going to comment on this part because it's a clear fallacious argument I see often. Games get stale specially with the rise of new technology. It doesn't matter if it has all the bells and whistles people moan about. There's several factors that apply. One being people like to play the latest and greatest following the flock. Another being, once you have grown tired of a MMO people rarely return. If they did then the oldest MMOs would obviously be competitive in player numbers.

 

Games have changed but so have the generation of gamers. They don't have the same expectations as the first generation of MMO gamers, because they weren't around then.

No, I think we're more or less on the same page. It's true that MMOs are bound to lose players as time goes on, as players leave for a variety of reasons and fewer players join the game to replace them. No question. But those MMOs are unpopular today for more reasons that just the fact that they're not the newest game. You could not get today's MMO players to embrace one of the granddaddy MMOs just by slapping a fresh coat of paint on it and rereleasing it as a "new" game.

Originally posted by Dewm

Just like my post was my opinion, your post is your opinion. But either way its fun to discuss.

 

You say that we have higher expectations now... I would ask you how? what features/options do we expect now that are so much more then what we had 10 years ago?

We might be arguing past one another. I'm not saying that there are specific features that we expect now that we did not expect then. Each individual has their own list of things that make an MMO good or bad. Would intolerance be a better word than expectation? We are less tolerant now than we were 10 years ago. People who didn't like corpse runs played EQ anyway. People who didn't like item decay played SWG anyway. People who didn't like being unable to jump played FFXI anyway. All of these things are now dealbreakers. People will disregard a game without a second thought just because it lacks one single thing that they want in an MMO. And yet, these are not features that are universally good. One man's trash is another man's treasure; there's someone out there who refuses to MMOs just because they lack one of those features.

Originally posted by Avison

That has nothing with us being to smart for mmos. The mystery and exprimentation of mmos was killed by us being 'too smart'. We designed these huge databases of information that help you make the most informed and usually best decisions possible. Too smart for our own good I'd say.

Without old players becomming loremasters to help the new the community never really solidifies like a real community would. Since you don't need anything from anyone else you never form proper relationships.

I'd argue designing an mmo that naturally opposes being able to be out in wiki form somehow would be the next step. Some kind of system or dynamic content system.

This is very relevant. It's not just about databases of information existing now that didn't exist back then. It's also about how game designers must keep the existance of these databases in mind while designing their game. You cannot design a 2013 MMO the same way you would design a 1996 text MUD. You must keep in mind that the average player will have at most 1 degree of separation between themselves and a wiki with in-depth information on every aspect of the game. (Either they themselves will frequently use the wiki, or they will speak directly to someone else who does.)

It's hard to put mystery and experimentation into a game for an audience like that. When someone finds out how to make a wikiproof MMO that people want to play, they'll have an phenomenally successful game on their hands.

Originally posted by Dewm

I would reverse that arguement and say that we have forums because games are bad, trust me we had forums 10 years ago.. I was even a part of one for FFXI, but I was rarely on it.... why? because I spent all of my free time IN THE GAME!

the reason I'm on the forum now instead of playing a game? because none of them hold my interest, its become more fun to talk/argue about a game, then actually play it. THAT should say something about the state of gaming.

 

What THAT says about the state of gaming is that people are less content with the games... because they have higher expectations now. I don't know how you can say it's because games are just objectively worse now, especially when nearly every single one of those games is still running but has almost no players.

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