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All Posts by Sanisar

All Posts by Sanisar

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18 posts found
Originally posted by negativf4kk
Originally posted by mmodanno

Anarchy Online had the worst launch ever... by far.

Game was unplayble due to lag and crashes.  Took them months to straighten it out.  By the time they did, everyone left.

Too bad, it was, (still is), a really fantastic MMO with lots of fresh, (for its time) ideas.

Swtor had a VERY smooth launch in comparison...  but, and this is a big but, :) , they waited too long to merge servers when they started to lose subs.  Within 2 months most servers were ghost towns, which led to more cancelations, and so on and so on...

If they had been agressive with server merges, I am confident in saying the game would probably have at least double the number of subs it has now.

Oh, btw, Mnwild, the reason I posted this was so that new people wanting to try SWTOR wouldn't give up trying.  Us vets know how bad ...really really bad.. the crew they have is at managing updates, so more of an FYI to newbies.  I think someone needs a nap.


Never played it. So can tell. From my experience its SWtor.

All will be judged when servers  go online. From my 5 month experience with SWtor i dont expect much.

This guy nailed it btw.  I bought AO the first day and couldn't actually play the game till weeks later.  You probably shouldn't make absolute statements like 'ever' when you have virtually no experience (from what I can tell) with MMO launches.  Not to be overly rude but you sound like you are parroting tag-lines from post launch forums.  SWTOR wasn't even in my top 5 worst launches ever (and I haven't played nearly every game at launch).

AA has huge potential IMO to revitalize the sandboxy market and at least wake developers up to the potential of stepping outside the 'comfort zone' of modular themepark design.

I would love for these guys to get a publisher soon; the right publisher.

I do hope that they don't overdo it with the hype though.  I would hate for the trolls to infest this game, though they generally shy away from sandboxxes.


On the other hand it will be great to read all of the 'Ohhhhhh. . . this is what you meant when you said sandbox. . . ' posts.

Originally posted by Souldrainer
Originally posted by nachofoot
Originally posted by Dredphyre

Let's apply the OP's logic to other industries, shall we?


"A successful rocket launch by NASA will be bad for the space industry"

"A successful comic book release will be bad for Marvel/D.C."

"A successful board game release will be bad for Hasbro"



This is the sort of innane logic we're left with in this country: If something is successful, it's a failure.






What the op is saying is more like:

"A successful gas-guzzler will be bad for the car industry"

"A successful bank bailout will be bad for the economy"

"A successful WoW-clone will be bad for future innovation"

Not seeing the bank bailout connection.  The rest of it, I totally understand the ideas, but it has proven largely untrue.  Both gas guzzlers and hybrid cars are growing in popularity these days.  Rift and Minecraft both released in proximity to each other, and both did quite well.  Dredphyre's post makes sense.  The success of one type of game does not inherently block out other types of games from succeeding.  If it did, the only games any of us would be playing right now would be Super Mario Bros 3 clones.

The point you are missing is that MMOs cost tens if not hundred of millions of dollars to develop.  If Nintendo games cost that much to develop then there would have been like 2 of them and the second would have been a Mario clone.

It's not about what the market will bear, it's about what investors feel confident in investing in.  Currently the only MMO's that can reap anywhere near the level of funding to produce any semblance of quality are themepark clones.  The rational behind this is twofold: investors don't truly understand the market or its' potential and sandbox games are percieved to be more likely to fail (even thought the vast majority of themepark clones also fail).

The issue/concern of the OP is highly relevant.  If the analogies are confusing to you then don't use them.  The MMO market is not directly comparable to the vast majority of other markets.

Originally posted by sr7olsniper
Originally posted by ropenice

Originally posted by precious328

I can think of about 50 more weaknesses.

This read is very biased.


Can you skip at least one TOR thread? Never seen such dedication.


I am really getting tired of this dude with a hidden agenda going on Themepark mmos talking about Sandbox. Newsflash big buy no one in here gives a flying crap about Sandbox and the mayority of the MMO market doesn't either, why do you think no one is making any big budget sandbox mmo's? BECAUSE NO ONE GIVES A CRAP!!

My two cents.

I give a crap about sandboxxes.  I'm pretty sure a lot of other people do too.  Maybe you should qualify your statement by saying something like 'People with IQ's under 100 probably don't give a crap about sandboxxes'.  You know qualify your opinion with some other statistic that reflects the same proportion of the population.

Here's another example: people with APMs under 40 (also people who have no idea what an APM is) probably don't give a crap about sandboxxes.

Then your argument starts to make some semblance of sense. . .

My two cents . . .

Got a good laugh here.

Yes, nostalgia is a real thing.  Nothing will ever be as great as the first game that hooked you, but's it's not like I can't enjoy Skyrim because it wasn't Final Fantasy, or Oblivion, or whatever.

Also the arguments you make about what makes an MMO make you look like you have been playing them for a few years tops starting with WoW and ending with clones of WoW.  You should apply for a job on one of these cookie-cutter craptastic MMOs, they all have the same mindset.  MMOs are the most versatile platform a developer could wish for, people (understandably) rage when a genre with so much potential and a studio with so much time/money put out a complete turd like TOR.

Of course the mechanics are old and dated.  Developers need to learn to stop cloning the same exact systems from game to game, no amount of story will make up for stale mechanics.  Even older console RPGs (like FF) changed battle systems every iteration to stay fresh; it never seemed to hurt their sales.

Stop apologizing for professional developers.  Telling them it's ok to sell mediocrity is part of the problem.  They don't need you to apologize for them, they need you to honestly criticize the things you dislike so they (and future developers) can honestly try to improve the genre.

Yes, I'm nostalgic about older games.  But I also recognize quality, imagination, and innovation in design and implementation and TOR has none of the above.

Yeah, it was like a movie.  The end-game was like the credits, and now I feel like I'm sitting in an empty theater with a box of popcorn staring at a blank screen waiting for the next showing (xpac) of the same movie again.   has the most accurate data that I know of.  Most of the figures I see tossed around are pretty accurate though.


@OP  You are right on the money, and I have been preaching it for years.  MMO's are no longer 'virtual worlds'; they play like single player games for the most part with coop elements at level cap.  It is incredibly lazy design and IMO the genre is at an all-time low.

The genre is either going to evolve into something deeper or titles are going to be designed to be F2P from the onset.  There is nothing in most modern MMOs to keep me engaged in a world longer than a month or two.  I think TOR is a huge step back for the genre, stripping even more MMO elements (meaningful worlds, noncombat progression, economies, player choice, etc.) and replacing them with a single-player leveling experience with a subset of 'rides' at level cap to hopefully keep you subbed.

There is no mystery, excitement, or imagination involved for me.  Everything I'm going to do in game is a foregone conclusion when I make my character at level 1.  Am I supposed to pay BioWare $15 a month for the few twists and turns I encounter in the class stories?  Do you know how much Dostoevsky I can buy for the same money?

TOR should have been sold as a B2P game with DLC plain and simple.  That is what the genre has evolved into sadly: 'MMO's' that are SPRPGs + dungeons/raids/battlegrounds . . . at $15 a month.

Originally posted by precious328

I'm very burnt out on Theme Park.

The AAA MMOs of today are no different than buying CoD MW1, MW2, MW3...      It's all the same steak with different seasoning.

I also relate it to buying CoD MW1/2/etc because I keep buying every new one hoping the next one won't be total shit.


I stopped giving IW (or whoever makes CoD these days) my money before black ops.  I'm about to stop giving my money to MMO companies too.  Too much of the young talent in the MMO industry grew up with WoW and can't fathom an MMO that isn't the same themepark cookie-cutter.  They should force these guys to play some 'legacy' MMOs for a year or so before they let them develop this garbage they keep spewing out.

This just in: Company who has only ever made single-player games develops MMO paced like a single-player game.  MMO players 'bored' before the first free month is up.  More at eleven.


Too.  Many.   People.  Blaming.  Players.  For.  Not.  Liking.  Game.


Just a little FYI.  The reason the arguments here don't seem relevant to you is because they are a year and a half old.  There have been a lot of changes I'm sure in that time so the argument is pretty meaningless at this point I would say (maybe not, I don't play WoW currently).

Next time you search for a subject (only way I can imagine you fould this) make sure to check the date on the last post (nov of 08 on this one).  At least you did use search =D

I am an old school gamer, no doubt about it.  Yet I don't necessarily hate any modern MMOs on principle.  In fact I freely admit (and have for years) that WoW is technically the best game ever made IMO.  The controls blow away any game I've played (I do have problems with things like GCD and spell-pushback), the fluidity of controlling your avatar is unparalleled, I don't have a problem with the graphics since they are at least crisp and clear, the world design is interesting, so many other things I won't bother to list them.

But I also have problems with things in WoW just like I had problems with things in UO, DAoC, LOTRO, AO, and pretty much every MMO I've ever played.

To me the main difference is that there has been a trade-off over time in the MMO development cycle.  Developers now mostly focus on recreating the WoW model with an interesting twist.  I can hardly blame them since they are out to make money and this practice has proved successful time and time again in other markets.  In the past when the market was young, before there was a gold standard, there was a huge amount of variety in every aspect of MMO's that just doesn't occur any more.  How many more cartoonish graphic, two faction, trinity class, quest grind to level cap, group dungeon plus endgame raid, PvP minigame, etc. type games can the genre support?

The problem IMO is that all major MMO games (besides Blizzard games) are funded by venture capitalist investors who know nothing about MMO's other that what can be quantified on a quarterly report.  This combined with the fact that the MMO market is still young enough that nobody (with the possible exception of Blizzard) truly understands the driving factors in players subscribing long-term to a game.  This gets compounded by the fact that indie companies don't have the resources to produce games at a quality level on par with AAA devs.


I had a little hope for a while that SW:TOR would buck the trend to some degree, but that hope is long gone.  It will be a wow-in-space-with-story borefest IMO.  My hopes now lie in FFXIV for the short-term since I know that it will be significantly different from this model in areas at least.  Long term I am very impressed with the comments of R.A. Salvatore on "Copernicus" (especially in regards to death penalties and risk/reward) and always have high hopes for Warhammer 40k.

Don't get me wrong, I really did enjoy WoW.  Hell, I played it 5-6 years on and off from launch and have done everything the game has to offer many times.  I'm just ready for a change.  The same classes/mechanics/styles in a new skin just isn't going to do it for me.  I want innovation, I want new approaches to progression, I want a world that feels more cohesive not just a linear path through zones, I want some company to finally figure out how to design crafting well, I just want something new that isn't a rehash of the same old.  IMO it won't be very long before companies realize that there are many players out there who feel the same.


No matter how great WoW was/is it still gets old after six years, I just miss the days when developers tried to innovate from the ground up, not just re-skin a game and add a twist.

I think you are missing the point, or refusing to see it.  If the game is produced identically on both platforms (one for one as you say) then obviously the PC version isn't going to be any more 'intelligent'.  The phrase generally stems from the severely decreased demand of independent actions within a short window of time; this type of activity is possible on PC yet not on consoles (due to button limitations) so the mechanics have to be 'dumbed-down' to facilitate this limitation, which in turn negatively impacts PC users who would be capable of more actions.

I'll give an example.  In most MMOs i use around 40ish hotkeys per character on a regular basis, even with complex 2-3 button combinations (modifiers) on a standard controller you quickly hit a wall with the possibilities.  Another example, professional RTS players average from 200-400 APM (Actions per minute) on the typical keyboard/mouse setup, this just isn't possible on a controller and while you can port a RTS to console you can't play it anywhere near as effeciently.  This is why every game you mentioned is played professionally on PC and not consoles.  As far as I'm aware only Halo is played professionally on consoles and it's just a tiny blip in the pro FPS scene.

Also, as far as MMOs go the hardware becomes a limiting factor when you are talking about rendering hundreds of players at a time and constantly upgrading technology over the years.  The only solution is to limit how many players appear at a time on screen (presumably through instancing) which most players feel is another form of 'dumbing-down'.


I guess the real answer to your question is that because of the limitations of controllers versus keyboard/mouse and the limitations of hardware that will never be upgraded (in this gen consoles anyhow) games consequently have to be designed within these limitations that wouldn't be present with a PC only version of a game.

Even simpler:  Dumbed-down = limited by console technology where a PC only version wouldn't be.

I use a death adder and haven't had any real problems.  I had an issue one time that was probably the result of me slamming the mouse into my desk, but it magically corrected itself.  The issue here was that at times I couldn't click on the open window and I never really discovered the cause.  I do believe it was the mouse though.

I have heard at times that the internal boards for Razer mice are cheap, though I haven't cracked mine open to see.  Your problem however seems to either be some kind of hardware incompatibility or a surface issue.  The likelihood of two separate mice glitching in the same way just seems too unlikely to me.  Have you tried it on a variety of surfaces?  Have you installed the latest drivers? (I know this all seems obvious, just checking)  If so then you might need to research compatibility issues with your specific hardware.  Have you checked the mouse on another machine to isolate the problem to either the mouse or compatibility issues?

Hope some of this helps if I don't check back in.

To this post in particular: 

I would guess that Warhammer probably spent no more than 50 million, but that's pure speculation on my part.  I just love when people comment on how much money these companies are making using what? 4th grade math?  when do they even teach multiplication these days?

This whole line of logic is ludicrous, companies don't purposely tank their entire reputation, years of development time and effort on a game they have no hope of succeeding.  You know these games are funded by investors, right?  Investors that unfortunately have moved far beyond 4th grade multiplication unfortunately.

A few quick things to note before you jump on the 'screw these devs, they are making shit games on purpose to rip us off' bandwagon:

1)  No game is ever going to reap the cost of production in initial box sales.  These games cost a LOT of money/time/effort to produce.

2)  In order for it to actually be worth it for companies to try this they would need to recoup way more than the development cost alone.  They are also sacrificing years worth of opportunity cost where they could making much cheaper more profitable games (see console market).

3)  When you are doing all this 'math' you are forgetting a ton of costs.  You fail to calculate the phenomenal overhead of servers, customer support, dev teams, web teams, and all the existing salaries that still have to be paid before anyone reaps any profit.

4)  The first month of playtime is free

5) Only 2 games ever have really followed this mythical 'tank on purpose' model:

One was Warhammer, which Mythic genuinely thought would rival WoW; it should also be noted that in addition to losing this MMO (soon enough), money and jobs they also destroyed a very prominent reputation which was worth a considerable ammount (just look at the hype it generated).  Yea, they totally tanked on purpose to lose money, I can buy that.

The other was Age of Conan that Funcom spent a ton of money making, and similarly thought would rival WoW.  They wanted it to tank so bad that they hyper-polished the early game experience to scare players off at launch.  They developed a beautiful graphical engine to scare them away.  Get real.  Not only that, but they are constantly updating and improving the game and making a genuine long-term commitment to the game.

The only other game I can think of that has been named here is Aion, which had a similar launch.  I will however remind you that Aion was already developed and very successful in Asian markets.  If you bought into the hype of this game, don't blame NCSoft or whoever imported it for trying to sell you a box.  In this case it may be more true than in the other cases since they have virtually no development cost for bringing it over.  Seriously though, blame yourself for this if you fell for it.  I mean there was so much information available on this game from youtube videos, to word of mouth, to whatever.  All I needed to know was that it was an Asian import MMO to avoid this disaster. . .


Honestly, what games are you playing out there that had these mythical 'smooth and polished' launches?  I've played MMOs since UO and I have bought many of them from day 1 (DAoC, AO, WoW come to mind immediately) and they were nightmares.  If anything I think launches are getting smoother.  Where did people get these unreal expectations from?  Is this the social backlash of the kids who 'grew up' playing WoW and expect crying on forums to automatically lead to your every desire magically fulfilled?

If these companies really wanted to try to rape box sales from you it would be brutally obvious way before they sold you the box.  It would also probably be grounds for a class-action fraud lawsuit.

P.S.  It saddens me that this actually needs to be explained.

This year has the potential to see 3 new MMOs that actually have a strong chance to succeed and thrive.  SWTOR is going to be a very polished game made by a development company with one of the best reputations in the industry, perhaps the best as far as pure RPG.  Guild Wars 2 should be a huge upgrade to the original Guild Wars experience and with their B2P structure (which many players love, and non-p2p models are gaining more traction apparently) combined with their existing player base that will most likely carry over this game is sure to be a success.  Also, FFXIV is a huge upgrade over 11 and again will likely carry over their existing player base which alone is enough to make it successful.

I mention all of this because while I think that cataclysm will be a commercial success (I almost certainly will buy a copy even though I hope to be playing one of the previous games) the market will not be very forgiving to a 6-year-old MMO that much of their player base has fully exhausted.  I expect initial sales to be as spectacular as always followed by a shift of a portion of the WoW subscription base to these new games, even if they are worse games than WoW, just to be playing something new, meeting new people, and experiencing a new world.  I'm not saying that WoW is going to die or that cataclysm is even going to negatively affect the game at all, I just thing that this expansion is going to offer at most a few months (to level a new alt for most players) of 'new' player experience before player realize that it's just more of the same format.  I have to agree with many here, I believe that mainly this expansion (though it was intended to reinvent the game) is really just going to hold over Blizzards most loyal player base for their next MMO or Diablo 3.

On a personal note, this expansion looks to me like it offers absolutely nothing worthwhile to the game and actually promotes even more grinding than before via the path of the titans and the new secondary profession, both of which appear mandatory to the WoW min/max success stratagem.

The problem with the F2P model versus the P2P model seems pretty obvious to me.  Pay to play games attract players through marketing, charge you a sub fee, and then develop content specifically aimed to keep players happy/progressing/paying.  IMO this is a win/win situation.  The F2P model however revolves around the idea of developing the game to encourage future MTs and not necessarily with the players interests in mind.  Even if a F2P model game became very successful eventually it is going to peak in numbers and the game developers have to devise enough ways to milk those same customers to pay the bills every month whereas P2P devs are just trying to figure out what you are actually going to want to do within their game and creating that content to the best of their abilities.

This is the reason that there is a western stigma against F2P games.  Remember, you get what you pay for; in the case of these games you get very little of a gaming experience for free (and IMO not much more for paying). 

Games like Guild Wars and Diablo 2 are not free to play games BTW, they are buy to play games.  You purchase the game and get unlimited playing time.  Those games become profitable by selling you the initial box and future expansions, not trying to milk you through an item mall for necessary items (though GW does offer some MTs nowadays as well).  And frankly even for a B2P game I felt pretty disappointed by GW:  2.5d world, very little meaningful character progression, very little meaningful endgame content.  Frankly if you didn't just purely enjoy living out the GW story over and over or you didn't PvP 100% of the time then I can't imagine how anyone could play more than a couple of weeks of that game, though I suppose the masses are out there title farming.  /rantaboutGWoff

I think the vast majority the existing western MMO market echoes my sentiments, if you don't believe me look up some of the MT threads on the SWTOR forums.  95% of the posters say they wouldn't even try the game (or any subsequent Bioware releases rofl) if it went with a non-sub MT model.  Maybe peoples minds will open more to the F2P model when the gaming industry stops spewing out trash WoW-clones that execute every aspect of development and managment worse than Blizzard and would probably cost you more than the $15 a month Blizz charges for you to actually enjoy the game.

Yes this article just looks like meaningless propaganda.  Every add on this site is from one of these scrub F2P companies, god it almost looks like a porno site for hopeless development companies, but they have to make a living too eh?

The answer you are looking for has been stated over and over to this point I'm sure, but just in case I'll toss my opinion out there.  The game becomes easier on a daily basis mainly to allow casual gamers greater access to content.  The examples are abundant: the last 4 5-man dungeons take 15-20 minutes each on average, blizzard doesn't gate raid content anymore they just give "hardcore" (read: actual raiding guilds) heroic versions of the same raids that they hand everyone else, and now they actually hand out entire tier sets just for badges (which you can get faster/easier than ever).

The day the servers came back up with 3.3 people on my realm were PUGging ICC 25.  The reason guild raid progression looks similar now to how it did months ago is that you don't need a guild to do anything but heroic modes.  People PUG 98% of the game content.  I haven't considered rejoining a raiding guild since Naxx25. . .there is absolutely no point unless you really feel the need to do heroics.

The WoW evolution has been very interesting to watch though.  The game is at a point now where content is so accessible to casuals that hardcores progress through it in a week and Blizzard is forced to spew out new (and progressively shallower) content faster and faster to try to maintain interest.  Let's face it, chasing gear is the entire point of WoW; that pursuit used to be a long arduous journey ending in brief moment of elation when you actually got that coveted item.  Now it's practically handed to you.

Also, people seem ever so apt to praise Blizzard for making the gear so accessible to casuals, when the truth of it is that making things more easy and accessible to casuals generally makes those same things more pointless and boring to hardcores.  Another interesting thing to note (at least in my experience) is that casuals are kind of like the sheep and hardcores are more like the shepherds.  When gaming companies manage to alienate the hardcore players, the casuals tend to follow them.  It's true that most hardcores do the things they do for status and prestige, but it's also true that casuals just do their best immitation of hardcores.  Everyone wants to be elite and great, everyone wants to be important somehow.  But what Blizzard is actually doing is trivializing gear completely, which we all know is the entire point of the game.

Let's all hope that Cataclysm has some fundamental changes to the gear escalation/progression and that Blizzard actually offers it's players something besides the current trivial progression (which they have already stated they intend to do).  Let's also hope that they don't lose too much player base in the meantime because most players will blaze through this latest content faster than ever and might realize that after they get that dream item set they have been chasing for years that there is absolutely nothing interesting left to do.

Wow (no pun intended), I feel like the OP and some of the other posters here and I are kindred spirits.  After reading this entire thread I just felt the overwhelming need to make an account and reply.

First of all, I think the OP's argument has been somewhat skewed or misunderstood by many here.  He isn't just spewing nostalgic longing for the games of his glory days, a fundamental premise that MMOs were founded on has been lost in the "new generation" of games.  It's not a matter of questing versus grinding or casual versus hardcore; it's a matter of choice.

MMOs were founded on the idea that you could make a character in a virtual world and live his life as you saw fit, not just follow some scripted story the Devs handed you.  In DAoC I was member of some of the most accomplished guilds in the entire game.  On a given night I could say a word and command dozens if not hundreds of well-trained discipled soldiers.  Not some zerg of NPC drones, but real people.  And we didn't fight some instanced pitched battle scripted to make us feel like we were playing some part in a greater conflict; we were the conflict, we wrote the script and the war wasn't just something some quest-giver mentioned in his fluff text, it was an organic entity that evolved on a daily basis.  I don't say this to stroke my epeen but to make this point:  I was a general for years in the most epic 3 fronted e-battle ever waged, how could I ever be content to play out some reinactment of a skirmish over and over where the only possible difference between victory and defeat is 2 badges and a little bit of honor?

In UO my main character was a miner. . .that's it.  I mined ore for weeks and weeks and made enough money to buy a tower relatively close to a moongate.  I decorated it to my liking (many times over), placed vendors/crafting facilities, and generally loved the life of a property owner.  I made other characters as well after and had many other adventures throughout the world, but that is my fondest memory.

The point of this being that those games (just as examples from the 'old school' era) offered a character ways to truly become a part of the world they lived in.  Not only that but games from that era offered players dynamic ways to impact the world, to truly become something important to their universe.

Before I get flamed as a hater, or the WoW people attack me.  I have certainly logged my share of time in WoW (3 80s, 2 70s, 1 60 ATM and my account is still active).  I have had BiS gear, top rated arena teams, been on the cutting edge of raiding new content, you name it at one time or another I did it.  Knowing all that I can easily say that the power I felt winning high-end arena matches, or with BiS gear sets was nothing compared to the power I could command at a word in DAoC. . .with the same gear everyone else in the game had.  It's almost insulting how truly insignificant you are in WoW, though it's kinda hard to convince yourself that your tier27 is utterly meaningless when you spent so much time grinding it eh?  The day I bought my tower in UO was phenominally more rewarding than anything I ever achieved in WoW.

Chasing the cliche 'carrot-on-a-stick' may seem rewarding (and maybe to some people it truly is) but if you say ginding mobs in the forest to level up is boring and pointless then I say that WoW is the exact same thing, it just seems like it's more.  You have no power to actually afftect the world, you have no power to direct the course of events, you are just a passenger on the story blizzard is telling you.  I could write a short novel about my exploits in DAoC and the sad reality is that I can sum up my WoW characters in less that 1 line:  class, race, gearscore, and a relevant number from a damage meter.

The OP and the other advocates of his ideas here aren't just reminiscing about the days of old and yearning for the same games, they are pleading for an idea, they are pleading for choice.  They desire nothing more than to decide for themselves who their character is, where it fits into the world, and to have the possibility to do anything that might matter for more than 3 months when the next patch hits.

P.S.  I truly hope I haven't misrepresented the OPs intent or any others in this thread, this is just my interpretation of what I read.

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