I agree for the most part, when it comes to most things that require instructions, and true instructor is best. With the above example, a real instructor can see your entire body, and postion.

 From what I understand the kinect more or less sees a 2 dimensional stick figure.

As for other forms of training, such as the lower less complex forms of yoga this gizmo would be pretty cool, for the dancing games, sounds like a blast.

I think this "controller" is built to be fun, not educational, although it certainlly has some great potential in that area too. Wouldn't it be cool if you could be in a fighting game, or an mmo and your avatar does exactly what you do, and not some preprogrammed movement.

What if I am pairing up against subzero, and he misses me, I might just want to stick my tounge out and say "neener, neener, neener".

Originally posted by dadown

I was in the original DDO beta and decided in wasn't worth paying for. This summer I was in the F2P DDO beta and enjoyed it (they had made several significant improvements since release). Because it is now F2P, I'm continueing to play it after release and having fun. I haven't spend any real money on it yet, but I'm seriously considering it.

It will be interesting to see how DDO fairs as a F2P game. Maybe it will set a new trend. I definately like having the choice between subscription and F2P. I guess we'll see how well this model works by next year.

One of the interesting things about this, is when you are a subscriber it is almost as though you are leasing the content that is normally stuff you would buy.

 If you buy the extra content via the store, you more or less have it for as long as the game is running.  Someone added it up and I think they said a little over 1 year of subscriptions spent on the DDO store instead would end up buying all of the content, or close to.

I also tested the original beta, and thought it was fun, but wouldn't last. After testing the F2P beta it was much improved. So I kept playing. I have actually spent $30 or so dollars on the DDO store, some for fun, and some for new things to do, or wanted to join some guild members on a quest that is a pay to play line. I haven't regreted any of it. I would have spent that same $30 on the monthly subscription and probablly not gotten anything more out of it, and if I ever cancelled the sub to go free to play, I would have lost all of the content I was already enjoying.

I have been playing DDO from Turbine since it went free2play. And I have to say that kind of game free to play appeals greatly to me, and obviously many others.

  The way they did it may add to the great amount of people logged into the game daily too, because they have a subscription base, and a free2play base that has quite a few limits, but you can but just the parts of the game you want to play. 

 Following the release of the F2P version someone on the DDO forums posted his method for getting to max level for less the $20. And this just made it easier, you can still get to level 20 without paying.

Originally posted by nekollx

Originally posted by lordtwisted

 Also I think being able to lower graphical standards so that laptops can run a game is a must, I bought a new laptop this year because my old laptop wouldn't run my MMO of choice, I got stuck out of town on bussiness for a week, and had awesome internet via the motel, but no game due to no graphics card in the laptop.

 My current laptop runs it, but only on medium to high graphics. and it runs hot doing it.  Not saying they should scrap graphics, but honestly the game play/mechanics are more important then the graphics to me.......

Am I getting off track again? Oooops!

 

i call shnanigans. If you buying a low end laptop of course it won't play games. Sorry but you pay a price for portability. For 600 bucks you get a moble office or a decent gaming rig in a desktop. My laptop is 3 years old. Has a current street value of $600 bucks and had a dedicated gpu. And it can run City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, and Lord of the Rings on max, Champions in medium.

 

You can game on a laptop, especially mmos but not if your buying a net book.

so what are you calling me on?   I already said my new laptop can run pretty much the same as what you said, and my laptop cost me $750. You are talking about a 3 year old laptop that has a current street value of $600 <street value?> which would equal out to paying what? $3500 for it new? because you can buy my 3 year old $2000 dollar desktop for about $499 now.

  And as I said newer games, you can only run on Medium at best...so whats the point of the awesome graphics if you can't use them to their potential until the next generation of video cards come out? When EQ2 came out only one of the people in my guild managed to run it on max settings, and then only got like 20fps. and we all had video card bought with in the year. He was the only one that spent $300+ on a card.

 I say stop increasing graphics for a year and work on story line, a lot of todays MMO's last a year or so because the graphics are great, but the game sucks.

Originally posted by rgdelta

Originally posted by lordtwisted

Originally posted by rgdelta

 This is just a new trend in moving games away from the PC when in reality it might be a good short term economical plan but in the long term it will hurt.  Reason I say that as the Everquest console MMO did not do well and from what I last read most of the FF MMO players are PC over console.  PC's have a longer ability to grow because unlike a console you can upgrade a pc.  Alot of game companies are forgetting PC's when alot of pc gamers would rather spend the money and upgrade thier PC then buy a console.  

 

Also the way tools for developers are you can make a PC and console game more easily.  That was the WHOLE purpose of Microsoft and XNA the ability to create X-Box 360 and PC games more easy.  Yet companies will develop the games only for the X Box and forgot the longevity and lucrative PC gaming market like Lucas Arts.  I hope this is NOT the new MMO trend.

 

This is a great argument...lets take a failed attempt at moving the MMO genre to the console via EQ...umm 8 years ago I think? On the PS2? Give me a break.   And Final Fantasy was a pretty successful MMO, and it actually ran better on my PS2 then  it did on my computer at the time.

 And another point of interest, the reason some people are moving to consoles and away from PC's is because of the developers need to add the newest greatest most impressive graphics engine. With a PC I find myself upgrading my $150 to $300 dollar video cards on average of about 18 months, only because the newest and latest game won't run on anyhting more then medium graphics.

With consoles I have to upgrade once every 4 years or so, minus the occasional additional component. 

I hate to say it, but the day that one of these developers successfully pulls off a good MMORPG on a console, then the fight will be on. Hell my phone can do damn near as much as my computer shy of gaming, so when the next generation of consoles come out, I will imagine they will more or less be a hybrid of computer and console.

 

Those are good points but don't get me wrong this is not a console vs PC thing tbh games should be released for both right now there is not many games I cannot play on my PC and in the end alot of games look better and play better on a PC.  I think the trend of console only games is the problem same with PC only games. 

Financially it would benifit them to release it on both consoles and PC as good PC games last longer then most console games and thus they are losing out on millions of dollars a year.  Heck with a MMO I know friends who have pc's and consoles and they have told me they would love to be able to play them on both depending on the mood or thier RL.  I have nothing against MMOG's going to console but my issue is the market of PC Gamers that prefer to put money into thier PC then buying a console and they should not be left out for short term sights.

 They would never abandon PC's. As you said there is too much money to be made there. In fact I don't doubt if developers get a kickback for useing an engine that would force most people to upgrade video cards.

 And I also have to say, you are correct on the people that own both, PC and console. I for one have a PC in my home office. My laptop that travels the house, and my Xbox360 in the bedroom for my "quiet time"  I would love to have the option to play an MMO on my office PC, my living room with my laptop, and my bedroom on the 360.  As you said, then no matter my mood, I can play somewhere.

 Also I think being able to lower graphical standards so that laptops can run a game is a must, I bought a new laptop this year because my old laptop wouldn't run my MMO of choice, I got stuck out of town on bussiness for a week, and had awesome internet via the motel, but no game due to no graphics card in the laptop.

 My current laptop runs it, but only on medium to high graphics. and it runs hot doing it.  Not saying they should scrap graphics, but honestly the game play/mechanics are more important then the graphics to me.......

Am I getting off track again? Oooops!

Originally posted by rgdelta

 This is just a new trend in moving games away from the PC when in reality it might be a good short term economical plan but in the long term it will hurt.  Reason I say that as the Everquest console MMO did not do well and from what I last read most of the FF MMO players are PC over console.  PC's have a longer ability to grow because unlike a console you can upgrade a pc.  Alot of game companies are forgetting PC's when alot of pc gamers would rather spend the money and upgrade thier PC then buy a console.  

 

Also the way tools for developers are you can make a PC and console game more easily.  That was the WHOLE purpose of Microsoft and XNA the ability to create X-Box 360 and PC games more easy.  Yet companies will develop the games only for the X Box and forgot the longevity and lucrative PC gaming market like Lucas Arts.  I hope this is NOT the new MMO trend.

This is a great argument...lets take a failed attempt at moving the MMO genre to the console via EQ...umm 8 years ago I think? On the PS2? Give me a break.   And Final Fantasy was a pretty successful MMO, and it actually ran better on my PS2 then  it did on my computer at the time.

 And another point of interest, the reason some people are moving to consoles and away from PC's is because of the developers need to add the newest greatest most impressive graphics engine. With a PC I find myself upgrading my $150 to $300 dollar video cards on average of about 18 months, only because the newest and latest game won't run on anyhting more then medium graphics.

With consoles I have to upgrade once every 4 years or so, minus the occasional additional component. 

I hate to say it, but the day that one of these developers successfully pulls off a good MMORPG on a console, then the fight will be on. Hell my phone can do damn near as much as my computer shy of gaming, so when the next generation of consoles come out, I will imagine they will more or less be a hybrid of computer and console.

Funny thing is, I just watched a similar lawsuit between a specific form of lighting.

Company "A" developed and manufactured a suitable light for it's intended purpose.

Company "B" comes forward and says, we already patent the "idea" of useing such a light for that purpose.

Courts ruled for Company "B".

Company "A" went out of business, only to find out later that the internet had a "how to" discussion about if this lighting would work for such an application before company "B" filed the patent, making the patent void due to the idea being introduced to the public for free by a third party.

 So goes to show, if you have an idea, keep it to yourself until you actually patent it. Ofcourse this knowledge was too late to save Company "A" but hey, maybe they should sue their lawyers for incompetence?

 I think it's a tad too late for an EQ movie, but I would sadly probablly still go watch it.

 As far as DDO made into a movie. Just because a couple of people managed to get the rights to make a movie based on DnD and failed very badly. Doesn't mean someone else couldn't come along and do it right.  I think if I did it myself, it would end up being mostly action and a little story.

Too many of you are taking my post and applying it to their experiences.

 In my experiences, especially in EQ, and EQ2 where in the begining of the game forming a good group could take more then an hour.  Then just when you get together, all find eachother and start the quest, someone has to leave. 

 That really puts a bad image to that player that just made this group stop, and have to find a replacment, then wait for that replacment to get to them, and in some cases, go back and help the replacment do the preceding quest so they can do the current quest.  It really turns into a hassle.

 And the accusation that I just use these things as an excuse to solo, because I also said it is my quiet time...don't try to play it into something it isn't. There are times I want a break, and just beacause I call it quiet time, doesn't mean it has to be quiet. Sometimes I will go out with friends, and sometimes I will log into a game.

 But if my family is still in the house and I log into a game, I make sure I am in a psotion to log off asap if someone needs me, without creating a bad reputation for myself for abandoning groups.

 If my family is out of the house, and I know I will have an hour or more, I will jump into a group, or create a group in a heart beat.

 I'm still not sure what the complaints are about, I do both, solo, and group, and I don't tend to complain about either one, some days it's easy, others it's a pian in the butt.

 I prefer to have the ability to solo in a game, but only because I don't want to sit there picking my nose waiting for a group when in some games that can take over an hour.  But if I can go grind some mobs, or knock out some easier quest while waiting for a group, why should it matter to anyone else?

 And for the record, I still think the main thing people are missing about making a good community...it requires a small community, and PvP. but that a whole other issue...

Actually originally MMO's were designed without grouping.  MEridian59 and Ultima Online did not have grouping options.

 If you wanted to play together you just ran together like a pack of dogs. 

Once MMO's started getting more popular, we started getting the kill stealers, gankers, hackers, etc....

So then EQ came along, and added grouping, and eliminated PvP.

 So now you just took all of the butt wads we didn't want to play with in the first place and made us need to group with them. How fun is that?

 To be honest, I solo most of the time, for reasons beyond what you mention. I play solo most of the time because I have a wife and three kids, which all come first. So when I find a quiet time to log in and play I do so, but I do so knowing that a member of my family may need me to log off and help them with something at any time.

 Is that fair to my group? In most games looking for a group can take a long time, so if you spent the last hour putting together a group, and I said, "oh sorry, my baby is crying, gotta go!" are you going to be, happy with that? or is it going to frustrate you, because now you need to find another person?

Originally posted by gestalt11

I dunno, my highest level character is a level 10 Wiz/Rog Warforged.  Since he is warforged I would have to pay to play him.  So I probably will just stay not playing.

If I could play my original guy without paying I would seriously consider it.  But they are essentially holding my favorite guy hostage.  So on principle I will probably just stay away, rather than come back.  

From what I understand subscribers will get a certain amount of free points each month to use in the store. And on top of that, subscribers, and non-subscribers can currently in the beta earn store points by earning "Favor"  I did this in the beta by mearly completeing the starting quest.

  So honestly worst case scenerio, use the money you normally pay for the subscription and buy the points needed to unlock the warforge.

In the current beta <NDA is lifted> Warforge, and dark elf are the only races you have to buy with points. And the Monk and Favored Soul are the only classes you have to buy with points.  The cost is really not very big as long as the numbers stay the same at release.

 Weapons, armors, etc... like someone else said, mainly just small twinking abilities for a starting toon. Nothing major.

Potions of healing, and spell points will most likely be the money makers for the store, as well as ammo, and spell components.

You can also buy hirelings in the store, or from an NPC in game, so you can buy the same hireling with real money, or play money.

Currently there are XP potions in the store, I think they were 20% XP gain for 3 hours, or for 6 hours. Those were probablly the biggest item in the store that would give someone spending real money an edge over a player that chose to spend no money.

 There are also cosmetic things, hair dyes type stuff.

 I liked this game when I played the beta when it originally was comming out, but I didn't buy it because friends were haunting me about playing something else at the time.

 I will be playing now in this free version, atleast until something better comes along, and I will most likely spend real money on points here and there, just because. If I spent $5 or $10 dollars a month here and there on store points, it still saves me money. and I don't have to spend the money to keep playing it.

You are backwards. East Coast is 3 hours ahead of the West coast. So it would be...

Noon PST

and 3pm EST

Originally posted by sudsboy 

Railroads take you between servers, and are player created and owned (AI operated). Require lots of resources to build, and a partner on the other end.

 

This line right here might get you in trouble with the Chinese...didn't they get forced to build most of the railroads back then?  So far we run the risk of upsetting three "minorities" and thats before we even discuss Mexico.

One of these days I am going to get off my behind and finish putting down all of my ideas from my experience in MMO's/RPG's/FPS games and do a kinda work sheet on what elements a MMO is going to need.  Then sell it. Because I know I don't have the ability to build it myself.

 But back to topic.....One of my biggest things about current MMO's is that the community is way too big. You don't know, or get to know anyone.  In the early days Meridian59 had like 300 people on a server at it's peak.  When you logged on and said hello in the OOC channel, people responded, and you have played with most of them for a long time.

 So I am wondering....with the wild west theme, can we have player built towns seperated enough that it actually took a lot of effort to get from one town to the next.  This would build small communities. These communities would most likely help eachother build up the town to defend it from outlaws, indians, etc...

Originally posted by Dana

---

Originally posted by Dana

 

But still, how fast someone draws, is based on their reflexes, not some statistical modifier and die roll.

---

 

You lost even much more as very few MMO players want combat based on reflexes.

 

There's a thing that's missing in a western MMO it's monters. Players will be bored pretty fast to kill humans, wolves and serpents only.

But I agree it could be a Fun Game.

 

Perhaps, but in my opinion, we've seen that gun-based RPG games have a tough time catching on. See case Tabula Rasa. If you make this a pure PRG in that sense of the word, I think it's just in that grey area where it could be so much neater. If you're going to have guns, FPS is the way to go IMO.

Tabula Rasa was a heap of steaming..well, leave it at that, with or without guns. The game itself was the failure.

 Look at a game like AO, it had guns and it ran well for quite awhile.

Also lets see how something like Huxly works out. 

I honestly think that a wild west game could be great, I am a fan of RPG and FPS, and I know they will have a suitable combonation eventually.

 Doesn't Planetside have a small following too?

More or less take a game design like the original Ultima Online and make it an aold west design. You pretty much went out and cut down trees, mined ore, etc...

 The biggest problem I see....well, most fantasy MMO's have ogres and goblins running around to kill. What will a western have? Coyotes? Indians? <Sorry, Native Americans, with all respect!> Will we be able to buy and sale slaves? Build railroads?

 I honestly think that I would play an old west MMO in a heartbeat, but we need to have plenty of things to do. like maybe for every 100 acounts on a server there can be 25 bad guys, that way it's a 3 to 1 ratio of good vs bad, and would add some excitment.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by lordtwisted

  If you played out every quest, every piece of the story line, and worked on the other fun aspects of the game that didn't lead to the fast track to the end game, people would enjoy these games a lot longer.

 

That's because, in many MMORPGs, most of the quests are dull and generally suck monkey balls. I don't care why you need those ghoul tongues! How many do you need for only one potion?! Why don't you go and pick those flowers yourself?! Can't you just send one of your own privates to send the message or use a goddamn pidgeon or something?! Why send us when you got a whole army?

-I feel like a hero already. Not.

Good motivation for bad quests don't make them good BUT good quests with bad motivation are still good quests. Why bother reading a wall of text? 90% of the time it's some lame excuse like "We need a small group to inflitrate" or "my back is hurting" or "there's monsters everywhere." Quest lines might be more interesting than "quest bubbles".

There's also the curse MMOs: static world. Nothing changes. I have no impact on the world whatsoever. I save the child - he'll need another savior in few minutes. How can I feel a sense of accomplishment if everything I do doesn't last? Atleast there's a ding every once in a while.

 

If I want questing and lore, I stick to SP RPGs for now.

Excellent counter points!  While I agree the , "I need 10 bear hides" type quest are extremely pathetic, and just puts a quest to a grindfest, they are nothing more then fillers, and could easily be made more creative, and even more optional.

  Such as, "Hmm, I could make you this awesome bear skin cloak if you bring me 10 bear hides and some threads." First you have to figure, WoW does this in some quest line...but! The "awesome bearskin cloak" is by far inferior to half the mob drops, and most of the stuff you can buy on the auction house for less then a gold.

   So what is the developers options? He could make the quest a bit harder, and the rewards better, but no matter what it's still a grind quest.  I have hundeeds of ideas on how to counter this, but until I get paid for my ideas, I won't release them :)

  Another great point you made, you have no real effect on this persistant world. Some games have made the attempt to change this. Wow had a couple of quest where only one group could actually finish the quest per server. Did this have any kind of an impact on them? Well, I think they were proud of thier very rare mount they got, other then that nothing.

 I can see this as been extremely hard to accomadte from a developers point of view, I mean how do you make it where thousands of people can have an impact on the community? Well you really can't. That would be like trying to take everyone in Los Angeles, and have them make some great contribution to the world, or some tremedous impact on the world.

  I will post one of my ideas for a fix for this, and any developer is free to use it, but to get any of my other ideas, or learn from my 15+ years of MMO experiences, you will have to start writing some checks. I am available for freelance consulting work, but I will not relocate.

 I think our online worlds need to have a reduced population. Look at one of the earliest MMO's Meridian59. I think at peak a server had 300 people, and that was a busy server.  The perks of this? Well when you have played awhile, you know everyone on your server, atleast by name, if not by playing, or talking with them.

  With only a few hundred players per server, you can also attempt to organize events easier, and do other things to include the players in parts of the game that a large population just can't do. 

 Again I can, and will easily give a developer a lot of ideas, yes, a lot of my ideas came from a few other games, but they were great ideas, and could easily be expanded on to make them personalized for any game. Some of my ideas would require the game to be PvE, with a PvP element.  but also includes many ideas to prevent rampant PvP problems that rampage other games.

Originally posted by liddokun

This isn't a problem with just WoW, it's an industry wide problem that affects most MMORPGs. It seems most development houses have pidgeonholed mmorpgs in certain basic "must have" features namely: the "grind" in order to prolong the subscription to their game as they worked on more "content".

I can only partially agree with this statment. You still have to understand the grind they put in to slow you down while they work on new content, wouldn't need to be put into the game if the players played the game as an RPG and followed the quest line, rather then playing it as an action rpg <aka hack n slash> grind fest to see who can reach the end game first.

  Too many people are concerned with being the first to get the cool new shiny object, that they all miss big chunks of the game in the race to the end.

  If you played out every quest, every piece of the story line, and worked on the other fun aspects of the game that didn't lead to the fast track to the end game, people would enjoy these games a lot longer.

 It took me five years to reach the end game of the original Everquest, while some guildmates did it in less then a year. Due to them finishing it so fast most of them quit playing it with in the second year after they had done all the main dungeons to death. I played for 6 years, and they usually raised the level cap, and added tons of new content before I was even there. It was kind of nice.

Well like I said before. Most people, and that doesn't point fingers at anyone. Don't play an MMO.  Most people power level thier way through the game, by gold on internet websites so that they can twink thier toon to level at the fastest possible rate in order to play the end game.

     Then those people complain about how bad the end game is.

 I can not say anything about the end game from experience, I played WoW for about 6 months and was in the level 60's. But I did all of my own harvesting and crafting. I leveled Fishing. I traveled back and forth across the map for the current quest I was on, rather then useing a guide to tell me what quest I can stack to get the most XP from a travelling spot.

 I pretty much solo'ed because I leveled so slowly nobody wanted to play with me other then pick up groups.

 So back to my original observation. Those people that feel they need to race to the end of an MMO, not only ruin the game for themselves, because they don't get the true experience of the game, but they leave us, the ones that prefer to experience the game in time, behind with no  one to enjoy the game with. The true RPG gamers are a dieing breed due to the cheats, hacks, trainers, gold sites, etc... available to the community these days.

I think a large part of the problem with MMORPG's these days, is that everyone is in a race to get to the end game, and not enjoying the actual game.

  How many of you have a level 80 in wow, that actually built him/her all 80 levels, and maxed a couple profesions, and fishing, etc... more or less did everything you could do?

 That goes for all the other games?

 Why are gold sellers doing so well? Because no one wants to play the game, they want short vuts, they want end game, then they get there, and realize, oh, this sucks.....