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All Posts by Jimmydean

All Posts by Jimmydean

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1129 posts found
Originally posted by Quirhid

I think you are sightly misinterpreting the success off Dark Souls. Dark Souls is a hard game first and foremost. It provides a good challenge and a good adventure. Hardcore MMORPGs on the other hand simply demand attendance not skill: It takes ages to do anything, but it is rarely anything hard.

It doesn't have to be that way. EQ for instance.  Ever try to split Triplets in NTOV? Pull the wings in Vex Thal? Pull the Coirnav Event in PoWater? Etc...

Granted my scope is limited to the class I played (Monk), I'm sure Warriors and Enchanters and Clerics all had their versions of difficulty.

Every single pull got my heart beating because I knew if I messed up my job it would make a direct impact on the rest of the raid.

Sometimes difficulty can also be about management, planning, and strategy. Hardcore guilds in EQ ran like well oiled machines. 72 player raids were set to go at exactly the start time, people listened to directions and performed their roles flawlessly. It was very easy to tell which guilds had the better players, whether it be class mechanics or overall raid / social skills.

Question in the title.

I honestly think it may be time. The usual argument against these types of MMORPGs is that there are far more casual players than hardcores, which is absolutely correct. However, I think it's time to look at the market share. Every other month it seems another huge MMO with the exact same premise but set in a different world is being released.

Recent/Near Future releases include: FFXIV: ARR, TESO, Wildstar, and the WoW Expansion.

What do these all have in common? They are all built to draw in the casual crowd over all else. That's 4 different "new" games pulling all on the same pool of players, and that's not even considering the current distribution of that player set within games such as LOTRO, GW2,  SWTOR, and so on.

On the contrast, a Hardcore MMORPG would be only competing with near ancient games. What was the last truly difficult MMORPG we got, Eve? EQ Players are a committed bunch, but even that game is beginning to jump the shark hoping to get a share of the casual market - a market spread so thin it's no wonder they can't sustain.

With the recent release and reception of Dark Souls 2 I think people are coming around to wanting their games to be engaging, difficult, and thought provoking.

This type of game would absolutely exclude some players. I won't deny it, if you want the entire game to be soloable and to attain the absolutely best gear in a raid finder group - this type of game probably wouldn't fit your playstyle. That's ok. Not every game has to cater to every type of player.

So I guess the real question is : is the casual market so much bigger that it can sustain the 100s of MMORPGs that keep pulling at the same player pool? Or is it maybe time for a Hardcore MMORPG to pull from the significantly smaller pool of players that aren't spread anywhere near as thin?

Originally posted by Xstatic912
Originally posted by Xiaoki

Will see how it goes.

Blizzard ditched 40 man raids for a reason.


Highly doubt the trend of half the raid doing all the work and the other half being dead weight will change though.

 

Dont worry, there taking a similar path to blizz.  Next up, person will start ditching becuase the see the best gear is from 40man raid which the masses will start to feel left out then start to jump ship.. The devs will make a solution of smaller raid sizes and say the game needed the adjustment as persons, didn't have the commitment that 40man raid demanded..

How i long for the day when the best gear doesn't come from raid, sure you can still keep raids in for person who like that content but gating the best of the best to one feature is just sooo outdated.. Why cant there be a best of the best solo or 5man group content that takes 2weeks to complete (a stage each day) and at the end you get a armor or weap choice that just the same rarity as raiding provides (not less, not more powerful).. sure you can still do raid as it would probably be the faster way to gear up.

Reward the person who raid the faster gearing process.. 

I think people are forgetting why we even get gear in the first place.  Gear is obtained in order to progress your characters stats to the point where they can take on the next highest level difficulty of content. If you aren't raiding, then you don't need raid gear.

I would bet all the tea in china that the next truly successful MMORPG (2 million + Subs maintained) will launch with approximately 0 instances, and maintain this level of instanced dungeons.

 

Instances are a lazy developers crutch.

Originally posted by karat76
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by jusomdude

I guess it's good for some people that they're making end game catered to hardcore raiders, but doesn't seem very wise from a business point of view.

I want to see how long it takes them before they start to bleed subs due to most players being shunned from end game raids and cave in and start to nerf things or make some form of raiding for not so hardcore raiders.

On the contrary, hardcore raiders have not had a game to go to in what, 10 years? If they do it right, it could be home to all of those players.

I know some people think we don't exist anymore, but we do. We are lurking in the shadows, waiting.

Just look at the reception that Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are getting. While not MMORPGs, they show that some people actually enjoy their games to be challenging.

Not every gamer is casual, and we are starting to get antsy.

I love Dark Souls and have ordered Dark Souls 2 but i feel end game raiding is the worst thing ever added to mmos. In the mmos I have played since 99 there have been a grand total of  3 guilds in which I have found the players remember that raiding is not life and remember people do have jobs and kids. Maybe it is not the raids themselves that are horrid it could be have just have a track record of running into the worst people in all of creation.

Well luckily for you, there are about 100 times the amount of MMORPGs that focus on collecting puppies, kitties, and soloing compared to the actual mmorpgs that require you to be social and invest a little bit of time and effort into your hobby.

Just because the raiding is hardcore, doesn't mean that the entire game will be. There are plenty of things to keep non-hardcore players busy besides raiding. WoW started the trend of forcing raiding down everyones throats even if you didn't necessarily want to partake in that portion of the game.

In games like EQ it was an option that some players chose to partake in at varying levels. It doesn't even have to be as linear as it is in games like WoW. A modest raid guild could do just find raiding for Epic weapons and such in EQ, even if they couldn't necessarily beat the most recent progress raids.

Originally posted by jusomdude

I guess it's good for some people that they're making end game catered to hardcore raiders, but doesn't seem very wise from a business point of view.

I want to see how long it takes them before they start to bleed subs due to most players being shunned from end game raids and cave in and start to nerf things or make some form of raiding for not so hardcore raiders.

On the contrary, hardcore raiders have not had a game to go to in what, 10 years? If they do it right, it could be home to all of those players.

I know some people think we don't exist anymore, but we do. We are lurking in the shadows, waiting.

Just look at the reception that Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 are getting. While not MMORPGs, they show that some people actually enjoy their games to be challenging.

Not every gamer is casual, and we are starting to get antsy.

FFXIV:ARR is probably the best of the remaining Holy Trinity games. It is fairly new, so content isn't as vast as a game such as EQ2, but the development team is extremely aggressive.
You know the old saying.... "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 6, 7, or even 8 times, shame on me!"
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Lobotomist
Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

 

 

Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)


 

Playing a certain game that shall remain nameless, I can already see patterns in its "action combat" down to waiting 10 seconds then position myself correctly to interrupt a mobs aoe then back stab.

You are fighting AI. You are bound to face patterns whether the game has twitch combat or no (duh).

Notice how he was replying to a post that stated twitch combat was more or less unpredictable.

No, I agree with Lobotomist. Twitch combat does make things somewhat more "unpredictable". Non-twitch combat is more predictable and set in patterns in comparison.

Quite the opposite, in fact. Non-twitch combat is based on die-rolls based upon statistics. Even if you have a 99 percent chance to rol a 1-19, you can still roll a 20. Whereas in a twitch based game, every time that monster gets big and red, and you dodge it, you take all unpredictability and chance out of the equation. 100 percent of the time that you dodge an attack it will miss. Predictably.

1-80 was pretty terrible. But if you stick with it, and push through the pain, you'll get to 80... which is surprisingly even worse.
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by Lobotomist
Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

 

 

Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)


 

Playing a certain game that shall remain nameless, I can already see patterns in its "action combat" down to waiting 10 seconds then position myself correctly to interrupt a mobs aoe then back stab.

You are fighting AI. You are bound to face patterns whether the game has twitch combat or no (duh).

Notice how he was replying to a post that stated twitch combat was more or less unpredictable.

Originally posted by Pivotelite
Originally posted by Jimmydean
Originally posted by Pivotelite

I'll never understand why EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY MMO that releases currently doesn't have PvP and PvE servers and potentially even HARDCORE servers.

 

It's not hard to implement and it ensures you satisfy all your players. GW2 and ESO not having OWPvP is the reason so many people didn't play the games or want to play them. I thought ESO was good but without OWPvP or dueling there's no long term PvP so it's not worth my purchase.

Not sure if people aren't reading, or just not comprehending. They are talking about EQN: LANDMARK, not EQ Next the MMORPG. Landmark is basically a crafting environment. EQ Next will be the "real" game.

Landmark is the testing grounds for the real game, they are also adding PvP and combat and all that typical MMO stuff so clearly it's not just a crafting environment and should be treated that way.

 Well then it's basically just an Alpha version of the game, and serves no purpose whatsoever besides delaying the actual EQ Next game. I'm going to stick with the actual description of the game from SOE, which is that they are adding Monsters and Combat to provide some resistance in gathering your materials to, you guessed it, craft.

Originally posted by Pivotelite

I'll never understand why EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY MMO that releases currently doesn't have PvP and PvE servers and potentially even HARDCORE servers.

 

It's not hard to implement and it ensures you satisfy all your players. GW2 and ESO not having OWPvP is the reason so many people didn't play the games or want to play them. I thought ESO was good but without OWPvP or dueling there's no long term PvP so it's not worth my purchase.

Not sure if people aren't reading, or just not comprehending. They are talking about EQN: LANDMARK, not EQ Next the MMORPG. Landmark is basically a crafting environment. EQ Next will be the "real" game.

Originally posted by LagKingBong

Ill just end with this: anyone who can't see the merit in both combat styles should seriously take the wool outta their eye sockets.

Let the delusional people continue to offer shallow biases and oversimplifications to discredit each style. I'm gonna play chess then start up Coil again on this super hard FFXIV game. (lol)

 

 

All twitch combat is just jumping, dashing and hitting. 

All turn-based/slower combat systems don't allow for any skill to play into factor.

Both statements are shallow and untrue. However, people should not expect a whole genre to commit to a less actiony style because "RPGs are catering to FPS players". SRPGs combat systems are probably the closest to my taste of action combat (Dragon's Dogma, Dark Souls, Kingdom of Amalur), but we all have our own opinions. Don't try to put down others for having a certain preference.

Edit: If some people find Final Fantasy 14: ARR hard, power to them. It's like getting high without smoking as much. I wish I could keep my buzz forever but unfortunately the combat system leaves me wanting more after maxing my SMN and clearing all the content. Not gonna happen 4 everyone, but I'll be damned if I settle for combat similar to FFXIV for the rest of my gaming career. 

I enjoy FFXIV's combat. It certainly isn't twitch based, but you still have many abilties to use and situations to react to. FFXIV isn't currently that difficult outside of Turn 5, but not many people have turn 5 on farm yet and it's been out quite a while so obviously not the easiest game either.

I'm pretty sure at this point we have made a switch from MMORPG players playing MMORPGs, to FPS players playing MMORPGs. They are the wave of the future, and would probably be happier if MMORPGs were just reskinned FPSs with swords instead of guns.
I was pretty sure they made it very clear from the start that Landmark is basically just a tool. You are building, creating, harvesting, and designing the world of Everquest Next.  Now if in EQNext they said there would be no possible way for others to interact with you negatively, we might have a complaint. But Landmark is completely different, and stifling creativity in a game like that is not where they want to be.
Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Quizzical

Why, indeed, should your success in a game depend on what you do in that game?  Surely the answer to that is obvious.

Now, twitch combat isn't the only way to prevent combat from being completely stupid and boring, but it is probably the most common.

That depends on exactly what it is you do. In his example, his success in the game would depend on how he built his character vs the other being learning to get the timing of certain visual queues memorized.

And as far as non-twitch combat being boring.....Have you played WoW lately? I stopped recently because I couldn't keep up with the need for raiding. It wasn't for boring combat. In fact, the most popular mods downloaded in WoW are to assist with combat rotations since it's actually more difficult that probably 95% of the people in this forum will admit do.

Doesn't that make it easy then? 

Easy? I never thought of WoW's combat as easy. Not in the sense or context it's generally referenced here at MMORPG.COM. But if by easy, you mean giving me more information as to help me make a better decisions, then yes.

But here is how to succeed in WoW - it's as easy as 1,2,....3 Just follow these three steps to become a legendary raid champion

1. Know your rotation, gear specs

2. Memorize the fights and move accordingly, you will know when to move because you have the fights memorized and therefore there is no need to react in a "twitch" manner

3. Execute your rotation as best you can and yes addons make that easier but addons are part of the game.

World of Warcraft - Easy peezy lemon squeezy

As opposed to twitch based gameplay, where you aim in the general direction of the Monster you are fighting and left click.

I think there needs to exist both.  Some people just enjoy that style of gameplay. While it's not for me, I can certainly see the appeal especially in PVP environments. You are already bunny hopping and running in circles, might as well aim at the same time.
Originally posted by time007

To those players who are disappointed and say this game is a Solo/Single Player MMO, please read the below:

 

Elder scrolls has a 20 year history of great lore, great questing, and great storylines.  That's jut the bottom line of the franchise.  That's the core makeup of the game.  Most of the previous MMOs that have come out the last 5-8 years have bad lore, stupid quests, horrible storylines/plots AND are single player MMOS AND 2 sided pvp

 

BONUS:  It has 3 sided RVR!!!!!!  Dude its cake WITH frosting AND ice cream!!

 

This game has, to recap for you:

1.  GREAT LORE

2.  INTERESTING QUESTS (voice acting, rich text, etc)

3.  INTERESTING STORYLINES/PLOT

4.  BONUS:  3 sided RVR

-1.  Downside: Leveling can be single player (like every other MMO released in the last 8 years!)

 

Dudes, its an ELDER SCROLLS game.  Its about LORE & QUESTING & STORYLINES.  Know what you are buying and playing.  Do some research. 

So what you are saying is it's a single player game with a subscription fee? Got it.

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