Originally posted by Varny

 I choose whatever is good but the problem with sandbox games is there aren't any good ones and they always release buggy with no content. Like frigging put quests in them so I have something to do please! Like SWG when that launched I loved it to bits but everyone stood around in cities because there was no content.

LOL? Did you actually try UO at some point? I highly doubt that there ever will be a sandbox as good as UO was in the past (and still is on several freeshards).

Originally posted by Darkholme

Originally posted by tro44_1

Who owns the ip for UO? Why hasnt they tried to make a updated sequel? Anybody ever wonder about this?

If there was a updated sequel to this classic Sandbox Fantasy based MMORPG,,,,, What new features would you like to see added to the game's past traditions? 

EA own the Ultima IP. They have tried to make a sequel to UO twice and have failed to launch both times. They got really close the second time. They have ruined Ultima Online well past the point of redemption. The game we have today is absolutely unrecognizable as the game I loved early in it's life. Even after Renn I still loved the game, but the closer they got to Age of Shadows the more it changed for the worse. Then when AoS hit it really cemented the direction they were going to go from then on out with the game, and changed the core of the game to the point that it was really unrecoverable... 

Yeah, EA changed the game, and not for the better. I fully agree. But I doubt that UO would actually be running today if they hadn't change the system. There are too few nerds like us, playing the same game over and over for years. They had to make the game more "accessible" and "wowish". Lots of players still like it. I still have an open account and can confirm there is still LOTs of activity.

I do not like the changes, but I see the development of one ot the biggest freeshards, Defiance. That shard still is a blast! Try it and you will nearly feel pre-ren. But nevertheless, they had to implement lots of changes and had to add a lot of stuff to keep people interested. Glady, most of that stuff does not change game mechanics and is purely decoration.

And honestly: I you loved UO, and miss it, you CAN NOT waste your time with any other MMO around. Even EA's UO is so much better than all the other crap. Not to mention the freeshards.

Tell me: is there any other game around, where you can experience stories like that one: http://uothief.com/misadventures/ep229.html

I am replying to the post above (too long to full quote). Honestly, m8, you CAN NOT compare WoW to a sandbox game. It's ridiculous, really.

Is World of Warcraft a good GAME? Yes, it certainly is! It kept my attention for quite a few months, and even today I like to PvP from time to time. But I never ever compare WoW to games like Ultima Online. I simply take WoW for what it is (in regards to PvP): kind of Battlefield or Counterstrike with fantasy gear. I do not expect anything more from the game.

Is World of Warcraft as good as a sandbox MMO? "Roflcopter", to quote they typical WoW-Community-Member. WoW is limited in every aspect of the game. Everything I experience in WoW is kind of premade from the Devs. There is nothing unpredictable, it is always the same. Always! And that does not change because of some addons enhacing the level cap, enlargen the world etc.

In a sandbox MMO is so much more to do, to experience... It's hopeless trying to convince a WoW fan boy that there are other, far better MMOs out there. He won't understand unless he try's for himself. But if WoW is everything you have ever dreamt of, you should certainly stick to WoW. Nothing bad about it. As I said, it's quite a good game.

Nice, Microsoft!

Best way to deal with this pirating scum!

Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

I felt the same way after leaving UO and at the time, when the environment took a nose-dive for an artificial emphasis.  I've made the rounds in about every mmo since then and not one has kept my attention for the player-driven, open, and player accessible environment of pre Trammel.  WoW kept my attention for 6 months, and several mmorpgs since then.

 

Right now, the best mix of very well blended pve and pvp, imho, as well as the exhaustive depth and bredth of player-involved game-play is Aion.  At the same time, I am watching Mortal Online for its more exemplified player-emphasized environment, and their departure from the emphasis on pve whack-a-mole grind.

Yeah, I know how you feel! Still playing UO for more than ten years now. Had a couple of breaks and tried other MMOs. Well, I don't have to mention that nothing even comes close to UO. Even EA-UO wipes the floor with all MMOs out there.

But: of all MMOs I tried after UO, I liked WoW best. Not because it has a good gameplay, or good graphics: it simply is "working" and done professional.

@ original poster: So do not try any other WoW-clones (which are in fact EQ-clones) out there. Just stick to WoW because it is the best

- when it comes to PvE content, I highly doubt, that there is another game with that many options. Even LotRO will not come close!

- when it comes to PvP and balancing: WoW is best. Period! Warhammer is awful (and its all about PvP), not balanced and highly repetetive. AoC is even worse. Aion I will not even mention. EQ2, Vanguard, FFXI - there is no PvP worth to mention.

I feel you have three alternatives:

- Stick to WoW

- Play a WoW-clone (but don't do that ;)

- Play a good MMO like UO or Eve Online

I like to log into WoW from time to time to PvP with my rogue, make some duels etc., but after that I simply log out and log into UO again. I tried Mortal Online. But why should I play that? Its simply a clone from UO with modern graphics. So I will stick to the original.

@ Cik_Asalin: Get yourself on one the bigger UO-Freeshards like Defiance or Hybrid. Its almost like in the old times. Even when it comes to playerbase (especially Hybrid). Great faction battles, lots of O/C and of course: no Trammel.

As it was already said: We are still talking about games! The scenario you are describing reminds me of the medieval. A Full Loot System was "implemented" in the medieval, but turned out to be no good :)

But why the discussion? You WoW/War/LotRO-Loot-System-loving-people have so many games to choose from, so just leave the few games out there with Full Loot to us. There's no point in trying to convince you about the benefits of a Full Loot System as you certainly won't  understand them (just like I do not understand what people get out of other games). 

You could also check out Warhammer Online. It has a lot of Battlegrounds (=Scenarios) and is not so item dependant as WoW. In fact, you get most of your gear by PvPing and Leveling to 40/80.

But on the other side: I think WoW works much more smoother than WAR, and I surely consider it to be the better game.

PvP without Purpose: Take WoW for example: PvP in WoW has not the slightest influence on the "Warcraft-World". Its always something that you could also do, besides Raiding or...? (is there something else to do in WoW??). Battlegrounds or Arena is like Counterstrike or Team Fortress only with fantasy gear. Agreed: Its much more fun because I can play with my char which I geared up and leveled for months. So there is a larger connection to my char than in Shooters like CS or TF2. But the principle is the same. 
Wether you win or loose: nobody cares. There is nothing to loose and hardly anything to win besides some "abstract" points, which you have to farm, in order to get some better gear.

PvP with purpose: Take Ultima Online for example. 

Faction wars: Faction Wars are much more fun, because there really is an impact on the world (set taxes, set up vendors, craft faction weapons etc.)

Champions: Shortly: Kill the champ and get some powerscrolls which enhance your stats or skills permanently. You can not get them otherwise:

And perhaps - up to now - the best incentive for OPEN PvP: IDOCs!

IDOCs are player houses which are In Danger Of Collapsing (because Account wasnt payed). You can estimate the time when house will collapse. Once the house collapse, EVERYTHING inside is free for all to loot. You can imagine, there are quite large batlles when it comes to large houses full of stuff like castles or keeps.
-> Best OPEN PVP-System ever! (And keep in mind, UO is from 1997; Up to now noone was able to create something similar!

Originally posted by girlgeek

1.) Player Housing

Yes, I know a lot of people don't care about it, but I do, and so do a lot of other people. It gives a sense of "belonging and permanency" in a game world. And I don't mean CRAP housing like in RoM or LotRO.  I mean HOUSING...like in Everquest 2, where you're not so ridiculously limited. By the way....a lot of people have been asking Blizzard for this...for YEARS now. Their lack of caring...is pissing me off.  Also....guild halls...where guilds can display the "spoils" of their labor. (More on that later.)

 

2.) More and BETTER crafting

Again....see EQ2. I want crafting that feels like more than just pushing a button, for one. Secondly, someone needs to make furniture and rare items for those houses. So I want to see an addition of lumberjacking and woodworking, at the very least. Hell...there could even be a profession for BUILDING HOUSES or interior design, for those of us with that "flair." I don't know. Something NEW that actually requires paying attention and not just having the right mats and hitting a freaking button. That is NOT crafting...that's...hitting a button.

Crafting really shouldn't be something that "easily appeals to everyone because it's SO fracking simplistic." That defeats the entire roleplaying PURPOSE of crafting. It should be a little challenging, and take some time and effort, like the mini game version of crafting EQ2 uses. THEN...not everyone would do it, and crafters would become a viable ROLE in the game, as they should be.

 

3.) A couple of ALL ADULT servers where your age has to be verified by credit card that matches your name and address, and hell...even photo ID, for all I care...it would be WORTH THE TROUBLE to mess with sending them anything they'd NEED to verify. And no...this isn't age-ism....they could also have Children Only servers, for all I care. I'm just sick of playing with 16 year olds. (No offense to the more mature 16 year olds, but I have CHILDREN much older than you, and I don't want to spend my personal recreation time playing with THEM either!)

 

4.) If they're going to continue to have PvP...then I want MEANINGFUL PvP.  BGs are nothing more than a diversion for people with short attention spans, imo. I have no problem with them continuing to have BGs and even Arena (which is really just Unreal Tournament dressed up in fantasy armor, with fantasy weapons instead of guns, so far as I'm concerned). Those things are fine, BUT...there needs to be an option for people that want PvP that.....a.) MATTERS, and b.) is open and not instanced, and c.) maybe...just maybe is based on lore and reason.

Perhaps the various faction leaders could send you on covert operations quests where you have to infiltrate enemy territory to bring back battle plans, or w/e, but OPEN PvP, where a raid on Stormwind would be EPIC (like it used to be before BGs and Arena, back in vanilla WoW when people raided the other faction because we HATED them...and it was FUN to just kill them because we were at WAR with them). And for rewards....let's bring back officer ranks and tabards that show your "position" in the Horde Military, or w/e, and give some love to the open PvP idea instead of herding people into instances....BLECH.

I know this idea is half-baked, but couldn't they do SOMETHING to make PvP less....idk....BORING, while still making it somewhat optional? I mean...if you don't attack the raiding faction players...you don't flag. It's already got "optional" built into it, but why not give some sort of rewards FOR participating? You know...like "fame" and "fortune" and guild crests to hang in the DAMN GUILD HALLS we STILL DON'T HAVE.

 

 

/end rant

I could easily continue, but this already is at TL:DR status, so....these are only a FEW of my gripes.

 

 

I loved your post, really! Pretty much sums it up. Personally, there are a LOT more things which I would miss in WoW, when I was still playing.

One think I really liked about WoW and Blizzard: everything they did, they did it professional. The game still feels "smooth".  I can't remember a single bug in WoW and I hardly had any connection losts or things like this.  Everything seems to be working! Wish I could tell the same about other MMOs.

Tell you what: I am currently playing UO back on the official shards, after playing for years on Freeshard Defiance.

Even in its CURRENT state, UO still beats every other MMO I tried (which were quite a lot). That throws a very sad picture on todays MMO-market.

Easy one: Ultima Online. Either OSI or Freeshard.

As always, I will try a lot of other MMOs during the next 2 years... and as always I will return to UO after a few weeks, because I found out that the new MMO sucks.

Originally posted by Torik

Originally posted by Kalvasflamm 

With "winning" I mean, that I can not play a game, where death has hardly no consequence. Why?  Because I could not get ANY thrill out of it. I love the idea, that whatever I do, there could always someone behind the next corner, kill me, and take all my things. "Winning" is the thrill I get out of game. Jesus, in UO I shit in my pants every time some red pops out, while I am hunting, fishing, Idocing, etc.

This is the real 'great divide' in this debate.  To someone like me what you described sounds weird and borders on a mental problem.   You seem unable to derive pleasure from basic game features without adding a masochistic element to it.  Rather than getting enjoyment from the challenge you enjoy the artificial fear that is generated.  It reminds me very much of the college kids who seem unable to have 'fun' without getting blind drunk.

 

Hmm, to be honest, I think the real problem is what you define as "challenge". It is no challenge for me doing some PvE-Stuff, Quests etc. There is nothing unpredictable in it. Same goes for raids. Although I do understand what some people "get" from this (achieving a "greater" goal with the guild for example), I really can not stand it. I am simply bored to death. I miss the "unpredictable"-factor that only comes from playing against other humans. I mean, why do people play games like Counterstrike, Battlefield etc. instead of just playing offline Unreal 3 or Half Life 2? Humans always act unpredictable. Its much more fun. And if you refer to PvP without Death Penalty, I do have the same opinion as already was stated: I do not like meaningless PvP.

As you may have already noticed, I LOVE Ultima Online. Let's take an example from UO: I remember farming Earth Elementals in the dungeon Shame, back in the days when my char was weak. I killed those things for hours, getting better and better in swordsmanship. I had a backpack full of gold and magic items. I knew it was time to get out of the dungeon and recall to Britain to bank this stuff. Suddenly a bunch of red guys came riding into the dungeon and saw me. I rode as hard as could, these murderers always on my back. Somehow I managed to get them off, and suceeded to hide a screen away. My heart was *BOOM BOOM BOOM*, Pulse about 200 I think. I recalled to Britain, banked that stuff, and was very very happy! 

On the other side, I do remember mining in UO; had a full backpack with valorite stones, a red guy pops up, boom I am dead. What I mined for hours - Gone. I sat in front of PC, sreaming and yelling. After I while I settled, my pulse went back to normal and I had to laugh:  I loved about a great game, which enables me to participate in all those emotions!

And exactly these emotions are the reason for me to not play games like WoW, War, etc. (I do have tested them for some months, but quickly bored me to death).

Originally posted by Yohanu

Mortal Online is good on it's way to the same dept. Awesome crafting system, player housing, animal taming and a surprisingly fun way of riding!

Sorry, but I can not agree at the moment. Although I like what I see (basically a 3D-UO), MO has to walk a looooong road before release. ATM there isnt hardly any content in the game except for pvping and very basically crafting.

I hope that MO holds what it promises in the end.

If you're pushing the realism angle, why not just delete the character on death?

I agree with someone above, that it would be too hard. It sure would be the most realistic, but still, companies want to earn money, and not even I would play a game with permadeath. At least not when it still takes weeks, if not months to skill out your char. And cutting the time to skill out char is not an option too, imho.

And in most games you can simply die too quick due to lags, due to cheaters using speedhacks etc.

With "winning" I mean, that I can not play a game, where death has hardly no consequence. Why?  Because I could not get ANY thrill out of it. I love the idea, that whatever I do, there could always someone behind the next corner, kill me, and take all my things. "Winning" is the thrill I get out of game. Jesus, in UO I shit in my pants every time some red pops out, while I am hunting, fishing, Idocing, etc.

For me, instances are responsible for the loss of lots of atmosphere in a game. I can't spend hours in an instance, knowing that the worst thing that can happen to me, is to get killed by some monster. Drop the instance and WoW-System and suddenly, while my guild could be doing a PvE boss, the worst thing that could happen, is to get raided by some "Red" guild while loosing all your stuff. I get bored in games like WoW, War, LotRO etc, because I can not expect any emotion besides pure boredom.

I find it hard to describe (especially in English while coming from Germany ;) and perhaps its a bit OT too. Everyone has a own opinion. And tbh: I kind of envy you. If you love instanced based games, you sure have a lot more games too chose from than I do :(

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

Maybe the sandbox format isn't as popular amongst the masses as the vocal minority that inhabit MMO forums would like to think.  Maybe the sandbox games that get released are pure crap.  Maybe the IP isn't interesting enough.  Maybe design decisions like FPS combat or full loot or too much PvP turn off the masses.  Lots of potential reasons to pick from.

Anyway, things go in cycles...maybe a few more years of no MMOs other than WoW breaking a sustained sub mark of over 300k will get one of the big boys to risk big bucks on an old school sandboxy MMO. 

LOL, I think, this post comes close to the truth. Let's face it: We - who are inhabiting all these forums concerning MMOs - are NERDs. We like Sandbox MMOs. SURE! But the usual Player is like a Popcorn movie. If he doesn't get his action, if he doesn't get a real real simple story which he can follow, he is not satisfied. I think that applies for MMOs too.

Why do has WoW sooooo many players? Because most of them do not care for great game depth. They want quick action, they want others too show what great gear they possess, they like spending years in the same instance, they do not like to lose their stuff, shortly: They do not like Sandbox MMOs.

Look at UO: What do you think why OSI puts Trammel into the game? Simply because most people didn't like to be killed and loose their stuff. Only a minority of players like Full loot. Only a minority of players like to actually "PLAY" the game without taken by the hand from one quest to another.

Do I have to like this system? NO! But I can't change it either! I will appreciate every MMO that decides to follow another path (the UO-path perhaps). But as long as I do not find a GOOD sandbox MMO, I will be playing Ultima Online.

What is the deal with Darkfall Online and Mortal Online? Imho they are just copying UO without reaching the same level of game depth? If it isn't for the modern graphics, why should I bother to play this instead of just playing the original?

Look at Darkfall for example: It strives to be like UO: But where is the Taming? Where is the Stealing?

Simple: I can't imagine a better Death Penalty than Full Loot Drop. Why? Its kind of realistic, I think. You die, people take your stuff -> just like in RL ;)

I do not like these abstract ideas like skill loss, less experience etc. And I really hate the Wowish-games, where there is hardly any penalty to death. Imho, you can not win, if you are not able to lose sth.

Well, for a game like UO I would pay up to 50 bucks a month. But I would need some kind of guarantee, that the game remains in its original state (and not EA begins to mess up the whole thing).

But on the other hand: I AM playing UO and it costs me only about 10 bucks a month :) 

Ultima Online is - hands down - the best game I ever ever played (and still playing for more than ten years). And hitting 37 in a couple of months, believe me, I played hundreds (if not thousands) of games since the early 80s.

Would I have to rate UO on a scale from 1 to 100 where UO is getting the 100, the second place would not even get above 50.

UO still - in its current state - wipes the floor with all those wannabe MMOs out there.

Personally: I consider all other MMOs out there totally crap (although I can not speak for Eve Online).

Sure, there are some nice games out there, e.g. Vanguard, Darkfall Online (do not believe the bad rating of that game), Mortal Online somewhere in the future, but all of them come not even close to UO. Theres great crafting in Vanguard, but where is the PvP? Darkfall Online as being a copy of UO has not implemented all parts of UO: where is the taming? Where is the stealing?

I honestly doubt that there will ever be another game with the same game depth as UO.