Originally posted by finnmacool1

Sorry but sounds like this is the only game you played where a complete lack of skill for rvr was ok, which is probably why you enjoyed it so much. There are skilled players in daoc just like every other game out there but no game rewards lack of skill as much as daoc.

Any true pvper will tell you a good pvp game values skill over level, daoc doesnt. Any true pvper will tell you cc should play very little role(strategic only), daoc is built around cc.

Your ridiculous comment on wow casters "spamming" a button as if movement/kiting for casters is unique to daoc shows just how clueless you are. Of course a well played and organised 8 man can crush larger groups of random players. That is no different than any other game. A gaggle of ungrouped solers not communicating or working towards the same objective is easy picking in any game. The fact every 8man squad revolves around a speed class + insta ae mez class really tells you all you need to know. Nevermind the fact that each realm has many classes that wont be invited to that squad because they add little to nothing and are dead weight/filler/fodder for rvr.

I enjoyed daoc when it came out, there are a lot of interesting classes and abilities. The additions of style chains,positionals,reactionary abilities was awesome. You can have fun in rvr but that isnt the same as being a good pvp game. The pvp/rvr in daoc has been horrible since release and is hands down the worse of any game ive played by a longshot. They did away with one of the only redeeming aspescts(realm pride) when they merged all the servers and allowed one account to have chars for all 3 realms.

lol at lack of skill in DAOC... that's why it's so widely regarded as the best PVP MMO of all time... 

noone competent ever died to instant mez, rofl...  

i've played every major mmo (and some minor) since and including UO...

level made zero difference in DAOC because everyone in the frontiers was 50...

another reason why DAOC's PVP is so great is that it had less gear disparity than most...

Originally posted by finnmacool1

I would love to know where the author came up with daoc long being heralded as having the "best" pvp. Of course the die hard daoc fanatics would say that just like the die hard vanguard players claim that game to be the best game ever despite reality.

The reality is daoc has always had the worse pvp. Level is more important than skill(mitigated these days by bgs with about a 5 level spread). CC has always been ridiculous. Absolute horrible casting system for any pvp game. Lets see some guy 3 football fields away is looking at me funny so it interrupts my spell? really? Now i cant even attempt another spell for 5 secs? really?

Assaulting/defending keeps is the only semi fun pvp in daoc. Every other encounter goes one of two ways:

1. Zerged

2. Drive by mez,focus fired down while you cant fight back.

Neither is fun,neither involves skill,and neither is remotely rewarding.

DAOC PVP took tons of skill, i think you're only criticising cause you didn't have any. simple things like breaking /stick to spread and position properly on inc made CC not that big of a deal. Hard interrupts on spells, again, required a little more brains than wow-style just keep on spamming the button, you actually had to move/kite and reposition.

One of the best things about DAOC PVP that noone's mentioned is the fact that a well-organised & played 8man group could wipe whole zergs of crappy players, which meant the side with the biggest zerg didn't always win.

Plus i am yet to find an MMO - ever - that comes close to the thrill level of a pitched lords room battle, or the rush of darkness falls changing hands, or an 8-man battle that's still going after 10 minutes...

awesome game. it's still hard to fathom why they wouldn't make a daoc2.

To be perfectly honest, I dislike all of the races... I find them all fairly unimaginative.

I prefer monstrous races, but Charr as the only monster race doesn't do it for me.

Originally posted by DerWotan

Bioware stated that even 5 elementarists could complete a so called exploration dungeon. 

I'm speaking exclusively about PVP. I suspect 5 monkeys could complete an exploration dungeon. 

let's just say it's something i've heard.

it isn't all that surprising that the best PVP team is based around the best dps, crowd-control and support/heal classes.

Granted that noone has really seen the mesmer in action, but without the energy denial and game-changing interrupts of GW1, it's hard to see him being a major factor.

Turns out GW2 does have the holy trinity, instead of tank-heals-dps, GW2 has warrior-guardian-ele. those are the only 3 classes you need to succeed in PVP.

When you have an extremely large pool of energy (typical of most MMOs), and it's only the extremely long fights that you really have to worry about your energy, is it really dumbing down the game by just removing the resource completely?

you clearly didn't play GW1. energy management is GW1 was a big deal as it was a fast-renewing but highly contestable resource (as in, full regenation in seconds, not minutes), and there were many skills to both buff and debuff the amount of energy available to players. energy denial was a big part of the GW1 mesmer for example.

energy is good because it prevents mindless spamming of abilities, and it makes combat more interesting than just deducting hitpoints from each other and using skills on cooldown refresh. intelligent use of abilities should be a feature of combat.

Fears/Dislikes?

1) Total segregaion of PVE & PVP. This makes it a more carebear game than even WOW. As dynamic as they claim, sooner or later, you ARE going to get bored of the same "dynamic" public quests. Battlegrounds will get boring super fast. Yes there is RvR, and that will probably be great, but they forgot to include the things that made DAOC RVR so engaging - reward mechanics like control of high-end PVE/PVP (darkness falls), relics (realm bonuses/bragging rights), RPs/realm ranks/realm abilities.

2) Shallow gameplay. There are no energy/mana resources to manage, only HP and cooldowns, which inevitably means a more button-mashing, arcade style of gameplay. I fear GW2 is more of a multi-player online arcade game than a MMO.

3) Shallow world with minimal/no immersion. GW2 won't lead you by the nose from quest hub to quest hub, instead you wander around from quest hub to quest hub yourself, and the quest hubs can morph into a different quest hub. The world is basically a big collection of public quests that have no impact on the larger world or the relationship between races/factions. It is the same sh1t all over again.

4) Cutscenes. Do not belong in an MMO. The players themselves should create the stories of the game (hello EVE), not some static cutscenes of a pre-written, scripted story. If I can turn off or bypass cutscenes completely, i will.

5) Underwater combat. So players magically acquire oxygen breathing masks and a new set of weapons/skills just by going underwater? One of the most arbitrary & worst design decisions/features in an MMO.

6) Visually noisy interface & effects. Skill animations overly animated and make the combat look like a B-grade asian arcade game. Weapons are almost ludicrously oversized in some cases. Target selection/mouseover halo effect is too garish. Even 2v2 PVP encounters are a mess of garish, overdone skill effects. GW1 was visually clean and elegant, GW2 is a dog's breakfast.

I still think the complete removal (read: dumbing down) of resource (energy/mana) management - while initially fun - will dumb the gameplay down to a point where the people who enjoy the deep strategic complexity of GW1 PVP and other MMOs will get bored.

I worry that GW2 will be little more than an arcade game with persistence.

Thus far I prefer the GW1 mesmer. In practise it's hard to see how clones/phantasms will measure up to the power of the GW1 mesmer hexes. Also I can't see clones contributing much in the way of defense, compared to eg: an Ele's earth attunement. Unless GW2 mesmers come with a lot more mobility & defense options than what we've been shown so far I can't see them having the requisite durability to be all that effective.

 I don't understand why they wholesale removed hexes. I get the "in-world DOT" aspect of what they are trying to do but it still seems very arbitrary and primarily motivated by wanting to dumb down combat mechanics, not make them more interesting. Case in point, removing resource (energy) management/attrition. That was a stupid design decision... unless you want your game to play like an xbox arcade game.

Hate it. Cutscenes don't belong at all in a MMO, it should all be happening *in the world*.

I wish they saved the money and spent it on making the gameplay better.

Guns and rifles do not belong in a fantasy MMO. Just killed all my interest in the game.

Originally posted by korkrm

Originally posted by Polarisation

Originally posted by korkrm

DF doesnt need classes. May be new combat skills or spells but not classes. Classes will destroy this game and will make it not better then WoW or LA2 or other clones.

If you can change your class at any time I fail to see the problem. Lack of classes/roles/specialisations debateably has already destroyed the game. Classes would bring some much-needed tactics and roles to combat.

you can change your role in pvp without "class" so lack of skills didnt destroy the game. Guys who are playing DF love it and guys like you always crying and wanting something more. Try to find it in another game may be?

You mean the <1000 Darkfall players that are left? The last time I played Darkfall, a couple of months ago now, the servers were virtually dead. Compared to how the server was at release I'd guess the game has lost ~90% of its population.

If that doesn't show there is a problem, I don't know what does.

And seeing how the forums have been asking for proper roles/specialisations and more sandbox features since beta it is hard to work out why Ave are spending a year remaking the world when players were not even saying it was a problem.

Classes add more to the game than just roles, they can also add class-specific skills, and a real sense of specialisation and character development that armour never can.

There is a reason why every MMO to date has had either skill caps or classes. It's because making everyone the same, single class that can do everything sucks.

Originally posted by korkrm

DF doesnt need classes. May be new combat skills or spells but not classes. Classes will destroy this game and will make it not better then WoW or LA2 or other clones.

If you can change your class at any time I fail to see the problem. Lack of classes/roles/specialisations debateably has already destroyed the game. Classes would bring some much-needed tactics and roles to combat.

Originally posted by mikethk

I dont think we will ever see prestige classes. . . It will be the armor that counts.

 

And dont wish for prestige classes. Its to hard to balance. If everyone can go in the same direction the balance will not count so much. They need to add more armor, more unique armor for specific stuff like, Tank, Melee, archer, mage.

Ave have been talking about prestige classes for YEARS now, and confirmed they were going in sometime last year, so if they have pulled them at this late stage after so much work IMO that will also make them look a bit stupid.

I also HATE the whole concept of being a different "class" just because you're wearing a different set of armor. It's just plain stupid. It should be possible to specialise in something at a more serious level than a different set of armor. Like an earth mage, who gets +20% to all earth spells but cannot use any other elemental school.

Originally posted by Fearmeirl

Originally posted by Polarisation

There's still no skill caps or specialisations - everyone is the same, and you're still forced to skill up every magic school, archery and at least 1 melee weapon just to be minimally viable.

you have no idea what darkfall is, probably never played, and i'd appreiciate you not commenting on things you know nothing about. thank you kind sir.

I have been a subscriber. I unsubbed because of the insane grind, the lack of sandbox depth, and the fact that everyone is the clone of everyone else -- you are forced to train the exact same magic, archery and melee that everyone else has, no exceptions.

I love the concept of Darkfall but I have grave concerns for the ability of Aventurine to follow through with their original vision of the Darkfall sandbox. I will keep waiting, like everyone else.

They've been working on this expansion for 6 months already and it won't be out until Q2/3 2011 but we already know it  is going to be mostly a visual/audio reworking of the current game with no major new gameplay mechanics. Any desire I might have had to resub to Darkfall is now totally gone... don't they read their own forums? people have been crying out for more sand in the sandbox and character specializations for as long as I have been following the game... what are they smoking?

They just don't seem to get it. Thoroughly disappointed.

There's still no skill caps or specialisations - everyone is the same, and you're still forced to skill up every magic school, archery and at least 1 melee weapon just to be minimally viable.

Originally posted by Greymoor

Originally posted by Polarisation

Originally posted by Greymoor

The only thing you've said which is currently true in game is the progression system is repetitive at times.

You can learn all the skills but to be uber in melee / archery you sacrifce Necro/arcane/elemental magic, to be uber in magic you must wear lighter armour and have put in a lot of game hours, to be uber with archery you've got to have great aim and an expensive bow.

Wepons are all different, sure whirlwind, knockback and anti-block skills all do the same but each weapon is an entire different gaming experience in melee.

Hybrids are common but unless they are veterans or have great FPS skill they're not uber at it all.

Untrue. You don't need to go destroyer to be uber in melee, and you sure as hell don't need to wear light armour to be an uber mage. Most will wear a mix of infernal (plate!) armour with bone. And then there is a spell that removes the (small) encumbrance penalty that's left to nothing.

Darkfall has the most shallow, least complex class/melee/magic system design of any MMO I've played, and I've played a lot. It's more like persistent Quake than a sandbox MMO.

Merely adding the FPS element is no excuse for bad/shallow design.

You're right, you don't need to be a destroyer to be good in Melee. It's very nice however. Yes mixing 1-2 heavy pieces with an entire set of light pieces with an expensive encumb enchant is perfectly fine, the mage risks more. And that spell lasts 3-5 seconds allowing you a heal or two max, so yeah.

It's the least complex because it allows you to potentially gain everys skill? There are specialisations, special moves, spell addons. That right there is more complex that any game with mere skill-trees that are predefined for their class.

Don't be so naive/fanboi. There are no special moves, and the specializations they have are terrible and pointless. 

It's the least complex because there is only 1-2 "classes" - hybrid and destroyer. That's it. There is more complexity in how you spec in Team Fortress 2 than there is in Darkfall.

Let me repeat: there is more specialisation and build complexity in a FPS game (TF2) than there is in Darkfall, an MMO. Class/skill caps introduce a whole new metagame/layer of tactics that doesn't exist when you can cast every spell in the game and use every weapon and every weapon attack. 

There's a reason why every other MMO has either a class system or a skill-based system with caps - it's because do-it-all-be-everything is boring and incredibly grindy. and anti-social. Economy is terrible in Darkfall partly because everyone skills up their own crafting and makes their own stuff, no need for social/trade interaction.