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All Posts by Muntz

All Posts by Muntz

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Originally posted by Howbadisbad


Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by Howbadisbad  

Originally posted by MisterZebub Why cheat? To win.
  This was basically the obvious answer from the start, why this needed to be asked or written about is beyond me. Life and games are often a competition, if you are playing to win and you believe that you can get away with it you should obviously be cheating. I know I have cheated in many things, especially school (and got away with it).
I play to win (not just games) but I want to do it off of merit not anything goes because I can get away with it. 


Well if you are choosing the hard way when you know you could pick the easy way and get away with it then you really aren't playing to win now are you?

I am I'm just choosing a different way one that I get more enjoyment out of. 

Originally posted by Howbadisbad


Originally posted by MisterZebub
Why cheat? To win.


This was basically the obvious answer from the start, why this needed to be asked or written about is beyond me.

Life and games are often a competition, if you are playing to win and you believe that you can get away with it you should obviously be cheating. I know I have cheated in many things, especially school (and got away with it).

I play to win (not just games) but I want to do it off of merit not anything goes because I can get away with it. 

Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

the most devistating part of cheating is when developers like Funcom ignore it exists. It not only destroys the community but it empties servers because of the lack of action.


Age of COnan is a ghost town since the mergers because of the cheating, it is really ssad.

At this point I accept the fact that Funcom is one of the worst enforces of there games.

So the question was "why cheat" well to gain advantage/"win" and if you do get caught well I'm sure a week away from the game will teach you a  No real deterent not to. To be fair Funcom isn't the only one, if you start perm a banning everyone cheating you might not be able to pay the bills.  

Originally posted by Foomerang


Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Dreamo84 It's funny that GW2 is clearly doing really well yet there are some who insist it was a "failure" at every chance. I suppose defining failure is key here.
I enjoy the game, I still play it. It's a lot of fun on and off and I love the class designs. But I still have my issues with the game and will criticize it where I think it deserves it. Every game needs improvement. So when some say it failed, you are absolutely correct in saying you have to define failure.


Go watch the GW2 manifesto video. It made for a great goal to strive for, but IMO, they missed it on every mark.

"I swung a sword. I swung a sword again, HEY! I swung a sword again......We just don't want people to grind in GW2"



That's why no matter how successful this game gets, it will still be considered a failure by the standards they claimed. 30+ mini games at launch. Are they even close to that number yet or did they just give up on that whole selling point?


If this is the measure of success I doubt too many major software products are successful.  The original GW2 manifesto was very ambitious. They certainly failed to produce everything in the manifesto. Then they turned away from it and went in other directions such as living story. I got my moneys worth of fun from the game and don't play it anymore. Even though they failed to deliver on there initial goals I still don't see why it can be counted a success. Locking themselves into delivering the manifesto may have resulted in monitary failure.

For me, the thing I think they only scratch the surface with was the dynamic events. They were simplistic compaired to what they had described in the manifesto.  So it seems they made a judgement that making more complicated dynamic events was more epensive then developing living story. They adapted. Personally if there were some really complex dynamic events I think I might still be playing. I don't like the decision but I don't think it's failure. 

Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by AlBQuirky


Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Really? I choose to make 10 mil a year. Why am I not?

I guess you are mistaking a choice for wish - you wish to make that money but you choose not to make an effort.

I'll give you that. But what can I do "effortwise" to guarantee/choice I make 10 mil a year?


It doesn't matter, because it's an irrelevant extreme example in the first place.

Think it though:

You could apply the same tactic on the other side and say "I choose to live in the White House with the Buckingham Palace as summer residence, but I can not"

So if we stick with using extreme examples as valid arguments, your "everything is a choice, but money isn't" premise becomes obsolete. 

If you agree that using extreme examples is bad in this case, the 10 mil argument from above just fell flat.


Wait, what about marring a royal and becoming president ? I can choose to try. Problem with any of this is it wont guarantee success. 

Yep, exactly. It's just like his 10 mil per year example (he could try), but applied on the other side of the argument.

We have to apply the same standards on both sides, which in this case kinda renders his basic premise moot if we go by the standards he used against the other side. That's all I am saying.



Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by AlBQuirky


Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Really? I choose to make 10 mil a year. Why am I not?

I guess you are mistaking a choice for wish - you wish to make that money but you choose not to make an effort.

I'll give you that. But what can I do "effortwise" to guarantee/choice I make 10 mil a year?


It doesn't matter, because it's an irrelevant extreme example in the first place.

Think it though:

You could apply the same tactic on the other side and say "I choose to live in the White House with the Buckingham Palace as summer residence, but I can not"

So if we stick with using extreme examples as valid arguments, your "everything is a choice, but money isn't" premise becomes obsolete. 

If you agree that using extreme examples is bad in this case, the 10 mil argument from above just fell flat.


Wait, what about marring a royal and becoming president ? I can choose to try. Problem with any of this is it wont guarantee success. 

Originally posted by AlBQuirky


Originally posted by nariusseldon
There is no way in hell that everyone can play 10 hours of games everyday, particularly for those who have 8 hours job. Are you seriously telling me that there is a choice of not going to work and play games?

Of course there is a choice. If you choose to flip burgers for 4 hours a day, you can easily play games for 10 hours. But most do not choose this way. EVERYONE has that choice, though, unless they are physically or mentally unable to flip burgers.


You said it yourself: Some are able to do so. Why not you? Because you chose to focus on work instead of play. But now, you want to "catch up to" to those who chose to focus on play. Your loss. Live with it instead of "demanding" equality.

Since some players focus on play, should they "demand" that they be compensated the same as players who focus on work? The true test: reverse the situation. Kind of silly put this way isn't it?

Some how you think that time is more valuable then money with respect to games. I'm quite sure that companies that sell the games do not share your view. So no you don't have to "live with it" because money talks. No real demand is needed just the quite suggestion that you will pay more for the service. 

Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Enbysra

"Pay to Win" exists as soon as 1 single item within a cash shop can be purchased and traded in-game. It is from that 1 point, that if I were making an MMORPG, I would be concerned with what repercussions are involved and how to deal with it. That is why I already came up with a real approach to such the issue, while the rest of you are still dawdling over definitions. But you can continue to believe or spew whatever you would like and-or want others to believe as well.

Well I appreciate that you actually gave a clear and objective definition of where you stand on P2W. Now we can actually discuss it from that level instead of the broad, vague, void that you were outlining before.  

Well, it is I that appreciate at least some base point from which to actually begin a real discussion. However, I am not certain you will appreciate the wall of text that is likely to follow from this point. I do apologize in advance, but the subject of "Pay to Win" is far more in depth and important, than most people debating about it even care to recognize. 


To begin with, 3 key points beyond just defining "Pay to Win" are necessary, in order to attempt to move forward on this subject.


-- The first key point stems from the reality of business models. Whereas the "Subscription" model (without cash shop) seemed ideal a decade ago, the only MMORPGs that can pull off a subscription model today are those of a known company and-or known series / title, whereas said MMORPG would already have a following. The majority of MMORPGs are not likely to meet this criteria, inevitably forcing them to use the "Free to Play" business model. 

-- Extending from this first point, is the fact that an optional subscription can be hoped for as well as should be offered, but it must be recognized that the majority of a "Free to Play" playerbase will not subscribe. Let us also recognize, such the subscription option needs to be worth the players' money, but at the same time can not lend itself to "Pay to Win." And there is no reason to argue this point, as there is plenty more.

-- Extending from this point, is the fact that a "Cash Shop" becomes mandatory, in order for a company to run and expand such as an MMORPG. I suspect it is many of the "Old Subscription" model players, that state a "Cash Shop" is fine, so long as nothing bought from it is tradeable. This, in fact would completely deny "Pay to Win" solely dependent on what is sold. This also is the simplest solution.

-- Extending from this point, is the fact that much of your playerbase would likely ragequit if they could not get these items through a "Free to Play" method. Some would likely call this "Pay to Win," although this would not be the case, again dependent on what items are sold.

-- Extending from this point, "Tradeable" cash shop items become mandatory, obviously also making "Pay to Win" inevitable no matter what items are sold in the cash shop.

-- Extending from this point, and our final thought from our first of 3 key points... How should we deal with "Pay to Win"?


-- The second key point stems from truly defining "Pay to Win", specifically to it being only one of at least a few "Player Advantages," and specifically in order to understand "how we should deal with pay to win." As being only one type of "Player Advantage", what other types are there? (and I will try to keep this short)

Skill Advantage =>> Players with more skill with their chosen class than other players.

Time Advantage =>> Players with more real life time than other players.

Social Advantage =>> Players with more social ability than others, thus more likely to group.

Coordination of Others Advantage =>> Players that are able to coordinate raid parties.

Financial Advantage =>> Players that have more real life money than other players.

-- The third key point stems from really looking at these "Player Advantage" types, and recognizing that all but the "Financially Advantaged" will always exist within any MMORPG no matter what (minus time restriction mechanics that have made their way into China's or possibly Asia's MMORPGs). It is in this light or with this understanding, that "how we should deal with pay to win" truly surfaces. Whereas "Unrestricted Pay to Win" becomes an issue among the majority of the MMORPG Industry playerbase (yes, that means most MMORPGs are losing the majority of potential customers they could have right now), some form of "Restricted Pay to Win" almost seems mandatory, on the basis of adding another "Player Advantaged" group.


[ PAUSED ] too tired to continue tonight. I'll get back to it before friday night is over, if not earlier.


So, if we're speaking about cash shops, specifically, and we're talking about MMORPGs then, again, I would have a VERY hard time finding a game that is NOT P2W. Are you able to give me a handful, or even 3, MMORPGs that don't have some sort of cash shop? It's becoming increasingly difficult to find modern MMORPGs which do not. I'm entirely ok if we say that P2W refers specifically to the cash shop of a particular game, but it needs further disambiguation because, otherwise, every single MMORPG is P2W, which is just silly. So we either just call MMORPGs MMORPGs or we create sufficient disambiguation surrounding the term (which carries seriously negative stigma with it) and make it suit the "crime". P2W should be a term that, when associated with a game, should cause a game to fold and die. It's something that should be a death sentence for a game, not something that describes the operating "norms" of a game. Otherwise, it dilutes the intended meaning of it. 


Disagree with you on Financial Advantage. Financial Advantage has almost always existed in every MMO. Players have always found a way to use rl money to get what they want. It might violate the rules of use but that really hasn't stopped it from happening on a rather large scale. I used to think I never was involved in using it. In a pre-cash shop era game as a member of a rather large guild it turn out that at the higher levels they were buying gold. So indirectly I gained a Financial Advantage as did everyone in that guild. 

Originally posted by Enbysra
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Enbysra

To understand "Pay to Win", consider the original Nintendo Super Mario Bros game. Imagine you could buy coins (If I remember correctly, 100 coins gave +1 extra life), one ups (automatically gave +1 extra life), stars (gave temporary invincibility), mushrooms (made you bigger, and thus 2 shots to die rather than 1), plugs or bridges for pits (which falling into would automatically result in death), a fireball flower (allowed you to shoot fireballs to kill the creatures)...


Realize, there is no competition in this scenario, just YOU vs the Game.


Realize, these items are all entirely possible to reasonably acquire through gameplay.


Realize, THIS IS PAY TO WIN. Period. WTF else would you call such purchases? 

Realize that P2W in MMO means buying an advantage over another player. Companies need to make money and if they are F2P with a cash shop, the cash shop needs to have items players will want to buy. So to be fair to the company and to players you need to draw a line where buying items in a cash shop excludes the non paying customer from content. So if you have 2 tanks that want to join your team. One has a sword from the cash shop that makes him a much better tank so you would always pick him first, then you have P2W. Having pots that can be used in competitive PvP that give you an edge, again is P2W.

We love games and as gamers we need to be fair to the companies as well or they wont make money and we wont have games.

Hold on, but the scenario I delivered outside of an MMO is in fact pay to win? Or is it not? If it is in fact pay to win, then it too is in fact pay to win in all other scenarios. That is simply one of those silly little study of logic aspects defined about a "truth". For something to be "true" it must be "true" for all cases. One "false" scenario renders it "false." As a matter of fact, even the fields of both mathematics and physics (which is the study of nature, you know, reality) recognize the same thing.


In an MMO, it is not that P2W from a non-mmo scenario should hold any difference in definition... The actual "difference" is that an MMO having multiple players, said players will have a tendency to point out and emphasize said P2W points that they do not approve of. Usually this means P2W aspects that work against them, thus giving them a disadvantage, and thus the P2W player an advantage (for whom else would be paying to win but other players? Certainly not the npc encounters.). This "difference and resulting tendencies" are what people are confusing with being "subjective" surrounding any definition of P2W.


This is the same lack of ability to pinpoint actual problems with other terminologies as well. Consider the terminologies of "Free to Play" and "Cash Shop." Many players know they do not like "Free to Play" and-or "Cash Shops," while they fail to see neither of those are actually the issue at all. The real issues are in the way such have been implemented thus far by games they have seen these in. I myself have not seen produced any implementation of these that I consider proper, thus, I can understand their confusion and ignorant disliking.


Again, no one is saying "companies do not need to make money", or even a boat load of money when speaking of MMORPGs especially. And such point is completely irrelevant to properly defining a terminology of "pay to win" for what it is, with the only exception being for propaganda purposes. 


There are ways for companies to make money, and I have stated this countless times by now. Obviously "Free to Play" is the mandatory path to take, with the only exceptions are companies and-or titles that already have followings. Obviously a "Cash Shop" becomes necessity, as it is the only real way to fund an MMORPG, as optional subscriptions just will not cover it. But none of that says "Pay to Win" should continue "Unrestricted."


The thread I posted in the Developers forums is specifically about Pay to Win Reduction Methods (In the F2P Business Model). Perhaps people do not agree with exactly what I have made as points in order to reduce P2W, but at least it is a damn good beginning to a good direction to head in. Those that opposed such concepts entirely are certainly not the thinking types, and it is the thinking types that said thread needs in order to expand the base idea to a point that people will recognize as good. The first issue with such a concept, ironically, is the definition of "Pay to Win." "Subjective" as a definition would have no results to said end.


So just to refresh people's memories, take a real close look at the Super Mario Bros example... THAT is PAY TO WIN

I think your definition relies on any paid advantage over the game.  Where as many others feel within the context of an MMO it's any paid advantage over other players. Bring in console games is problematic as in many cases there are cheat codes to get the items for free; it's read to win. 

Seems odd to me this obsession with rl money some how being different then any other advantage. The fact is rl money has been a part of MMOs for a very long time. There was only a very breif period of time where the early P2P games were "pure" We can argue about violation of EULA but all players that used gold farmers did not get band. I'd say the addition of money into games was a direct result of players using gold farmers. If this is what players want why not give them a legit way to do it in game? If I can earn the same thing that can be paid for it' has never bothered me. 

On a related note I think i dislike RNG to win most of all. Based off pure luck someone can gain a huge advantage over others. In some cases, many of the most powerful items are bound so to get them you just need to be lucky. No money, no time (although you could increase your odds), no skill. 

The sub model is the most economically viable model no doubt. In the begining time MMOs needed the income to keep the lights on, not provide ongoing content. The expense was much greater back then. It's still expensive but obviously by the number of F2P games it is not a necessity to charge a monthly fee. From a developers stand point that constant predictable source of income is attractive. Hell, any company would like a product with an on going fee.

 I think the real question is does it benefit the consumer? Personally, from a consumer stand point I don't see a game out there that is worth a sub, to me. If I'm going to pay $15 I want $15 worth of content a month not once in a while or a crappy bone thrown my way to show your trying hard. (Of course I take $30 worth of content every 2 months or however it has to break down). I have not seen the quality of players any different in a sub verses a non-sub game that some claim. Nor have I seen a company bend over backwards because you have a sub. 

Originally posted by Zarf42
Is GW2 dead or something? 

Sure ever since release some have said it is dieing, losing money and not sucessful. Like most things on this site you have to define terms in this case - "Death"



For some the definition of death is an MMO that I don't like. 

i'd probably still be playing if

They had taken more lessons form GW1.  For example a more complex skill system then GW1 rather than simpler. When it comes to skills they were much better at balancing them in GW1 then GW2. Even acquiring skills was more interesting and a game within itself. And speaking of games within the game it always seemed to me GW1 had more of these to choose from then GW2. 

Another huge one for me is to Invest in DEs over Living Story. Make DEs more complex over a longer periods of time. Additionally have DEs that are both hard to find and hard to get to. Have DEs tell the story. 

On a side note two things that get complianed about I really liked: 

Personally I like the lack of progressionj. I think they sold out on that to some small degree when it was perfectly fine in GW1. Casual is not - "I'm powerful because I put in more time."  Never missed it in GW1. 

As for the trinity I find it a rather boring mechanic. I will say they needed to make sure what got implemented didn't devolve into everyone goes Berserker. Variety I miss but trinity not so much. 

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

In my experience, dynamic content in MMOs is fun the first few times. After awhile, it seems that players can no longer be bothered with them, like GW2.

"Oh man! That caravan is getting attacked again by the Centaurs? I just saved them yesterday!"

I did not play Rift past beta, but the rifts became a "chore" after awhile.

What makes dynamic events work, in my opinion, is a world that acknowledges the events and their outcomes. GW2 kind of, sort of does, but not really. There is no way you can wipe the Centaurs out of the game. They will ALWAYS come back.

When I left GW2, dynamic events were pretty much a solo activity as other players were either not present (outleveled the areas) or just did not care anymore. On paper, dynamic events look awesome, I agree. In reality, they are like any other "hook" that can get annoying after awhile.

This^^^ Till dynamic events are not on 5-20 cycles and we as gamers can feel like we have effected change I dont think Dynamic events have much replay. EQN says they are heading that way. Cant wait to see if t hey pull this off =-) Most times now when a dev says dynamic content I flinch in pain. 

So what in an MMO has big replayability?

If I look at say quests or raids they can be repeatable as well but are typically just as static if not more so. 

I don't disagree that dynamic content could be done better. Certainly what was talked about at one time with respect to GW2 sounded much more grand then where they ended up be that a technology issue or game direction choice.  I believe the potential is there. I would like to see the concept pushed further maybe EQN does it. 

Was Robertson just  possessed by Rona Jaffe?
is it p2w
General Discussion « Rift
11/20/14 10:40:10 AM
Everytime p2w comes up there are many different perspectives on what it means. So It depends. Give your definition of p2w and your question can be answered. 

Most fun I've had raiding was with a small guild that didn't have a bunch of formal rules setup. We were good enough to get through the content but not so great as to be competing for firsts. It changed as the guild grew and all those rules and point system and junk, to me, made it more of a job then a game. 

I like crafting when it enhances the game. The potential needs to be for crafted items to be on par or better then what is dropped. Crafting then gives me a reason to go to areas and aquire crafting resources, unique resources and recipes. I don't like to craft if it is meaningless. 
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by seafirex

Lol OP, i think you never played the old day's mmo's. In the old days leveling up was a challenge.

nah .. i wouldn't call camping static mob a challenge. Tedious, yes. Challenge, no.


Funny thing is there was some fun in trying to figure out how to solo these mobs. 

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Azoth

I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

In a coded program, there is nothing random.

Come now, unexpected happens in programming all the time typically we call them bugs. The more complext the program the greater number of bugs exist. It is far from a new concept for a programmer to pass a bug (unexpected behavior) off as a feature. If indeed they were suprised by the out come it is more then likely no one person was responsible for the code that made it happen. 

Even bugs aren't random, you can easily reproduce bugs as long as you know how to reproduce them. Programming truly isn't random. If said orc goes to create a village there will be limited locations as to where that said village will be placed. otherwise you'll end up with some very... interesting issues.

How do you read unexpected as random?  It's not a matter of reproducing them or being random it's that bugs are unexpected. If you knew about them ahead of time you wouldn't code them in. The "as long as you know how to reproduce them" can be a large issue.

Agreed the space is bounded but It doesn't have to be as simple as "if-then." The code could be made adaptive allowing the orcs to migrate to some where dare I say unexpected but not outside the bounds of the game. That would move it from a "feature" to a bug. 

It's possible it's still too complex for an MMO. At any rate I hope it is more complex then some of you would make it out to be but certainly is could be very simple. Guess we will have to wait until it's available. 

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