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All Posts by Muntz

All Posts by Muntz

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281 posts found
I like crafting when it enhances the game. The potential needs to be for crafted items to be on par or better then what is dropped. Crafting then gives me a reason to go to areas and aquire crafting resources, unique resources and recipes. I don't like to craft if it is meaningless. 
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by seafirex

Lol OP, i think you never played the old day's mmo's. In the old days leveling up was a challenge.

nah .. i wouldn't call camping static mob a challenge. Tedious, yes. Challenge, no.

 

Funny thing is there was some fun in trying to figure out how to solo these mobs. 

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Azoth
 

I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

In a coded program, there is nothing random.

Come now, unexpected happens in programming all the time typically we call them bugs. The more complext the program the greater number of bugs exist. It is far from a new concept for a programmer to pass a bug (unexpected behavior) off as a feature. If indeed they were suprised by the out come it is more then likely no one person was responsible for the code that made it happen. 

Even bugs aren't random, you can easily reproduce bugs as long as you know how to reproduce them. Programming truly isn't random. If said orc goes to create a village there will be limited locations as to where that said village will be placed. otherwise you'll end up with some very... interesting issues.

How do you read unexpected as random?  It's not a matter of reproducing them or being random it's that bugs are unexpected. If you knew about them ahead of time you wouldn't code them in. The "as long as you know how to reproduce them" can be a large issue.

Agreed the space is bounded but It doesn't have to be as simple as "if-then." The code could be made adaptive allowing the orcs to migrate to some where dare I say unexpected but not outside the bounds of the game. That would move it from a "feature" to a bug. 

It's possible it's still too complex for an MMO. At any rate I hope it is more complex then some of you would make it out to be but certainly is could be very simple. Guess we will have to wait until it's available. 

Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Azoth
 

I don't think everyone in here sees it that way. Some people think that NPC will do stuff that is totally unexpected even by the people designing the AI.

I suppose that means by what one "means" by unexpected.

For instance, I don't think the AI is going to become sentient and start wondering about it's existence.

However, in (I think it was) Oblvion, one of the npc's needed a weapon and ran "next door" to get one which surprised the developers.

Now, I believe this was earlier in their development where their "radiant AI" actually did more than what it did during release.

So "sure" the npc's might do some surprising things that the developers didn't foresee.

But aren't looking at an AI that will truly "learn" from it's experiences like a human would.

I doubt it was a surprise to the person that did the coding. There might be nice outcomes, but it is all in the boundries of what is in the code.

Orc have in his likes ''wealth''

ways to acquire wealth might be stuff like : mine gold, kill and rob merchants, ask toll to cross a bridge, sell crafted items and on and on. But all the outcome have to be coded somewhere, if it's not coded, and orc won't go grab an NPC and ask a ransom to the king.

Every possible paths must be written somewhere, sure you might not tell the orc exactly where to put down his settlement, but there are still parameters that make him choose a spot.

In a coded program, there is nothing random.

Come now, unexpected happens in programming all the time typically we call them bugs. The more complext the program the greater number of bugs exist. It is far from a new concept for a programmer to pass a bug (unexpected behavior) off as a feature. If indeed they were suprised by the out come it is more then likely no one person was responsible for the code that made it happen. 

I guess my point wasn't clear using a heavy gear oriented game may have clouded the main idea. You can essentially take gear away from the game and still make it more complex for the player. Take Guild Wars 1 hardly a gear progression game. It had skill captures. Skill progression although not as complex as AO(and not even mid-level content but end game). Content beyond PvP and PvE Raids but that could aid in doing both. No I don't think gear progress is the be all end all to MMOs it was just an example. 

I played AO for two years and never reached level cap, ok I was close. In today's games you go so quickly that there isn't an intermediate game to be played at all. AO had a complexity to it that allowed for game play to be meaningful while leveling. The slow leveling curve was only part of it. I would not relish a modern game if it contained the kind of grind AO had. Too much time spent for very little fun. But I would like meaningful levels prior to reaching max. All games now seem like a race to the end. I don't think you can have a meaningful level experience if it only takes a week or even a couple of months to get to max level. Certainly part of the problem is the customers, they want to "win" and one way to do that is to get to max level. 

No wonder there is such a big focus on end game but this means there are fewer options for game play. Take low level or mid level dungeons. I think it is a waste of time in modern games to have them.  By the time you have farmed the unique items in the mid-level dungeon they are totally useless to you. You can run it once for fun but it seems like a lot of effort for one off content. Continuing with AO there were actually reasons a higher level might want to run a low level dungeon one reason was to get gear that would help you fit into other gear. Another was pocket bosses a sort of treasure hunt, craft, kill, and farm for gear mechanic. I think this type of complexity could be build into a modern game. 

Originally posted by maji

I just think that it's depressing that people are not equal in MMORPGs anymore, since subscription MMORPGs died out.

When there were still non-cash shop MMORPGs, people were equal. It didn't matter whether you were a rich kid in real life or a student scrounging up some coins each day, people in the game were the same. Not anymore. The guy next to you has a mount that looks better than yours? Buy one in the cash shop. You are gaining XP not quickly enough? Buy XP boosts. You keep dying in PvP? Buy equipment with stats.

 

It was never equal though was it, if you had more time you could be more powerful. I would argue that because of that there has always been people looking for ways to even the playing field.  Gold selling, exploiting, and hacks far pre-date F2P. Because they see the need and they could never stop it companies have come up with a way to make money off it now.

I don't not believe the payment model has any real tangible effect on quality of product. Not sure why socialism is always equated to f2p. I blame the current popular boogie man use of the word. Neither the government nor any other group owns a f2p MMO as far as I know. They appear to me to be highly capitalistic. The current MMO climate has boat loads of competition making it healthy capitalism. Will this always produce quality? Well, no companies will try and max profits because the investment isn't made to produce the ultimate MMO it's made to produce profit. What are you asking for some kind of self imposed regulation on the MMO payment model? Because you decided that is the only way an MMO can have success? 

At the end of the day if you believe subscription == quality then only buy subscription games. You are correct in saying others will disagree, we can see that in the MMO market place. 

Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by DamonVile
 

box+ sub games don't mean quality, regular updates or anything else you just tried to attach to it. If anything the f2p game that didn't collect $60 a player has more at stake when trying to get it's development costs back.

Depends on the game really. I can point to LOTRO as a game where quality of expansions suffered once they went F2P compared to what it was in the first couple of years of subscription and look at SWTOR where they said at launch they'd  be extending class stories but haven't presumably because F2P=not enough money. Then you look at a game like Path Of Exile which releases a good deal of new content without a sub or a big budget so it can go either way. Although if I really want to play a game a sub still makes me feel more secure.

Another factor to look at is how long people stick with these games. If the average person plays 3 weeks and then quits isn't it hard to call that a good game compared to older  games that could retain many players for years?

 

 

 

 

The examples you give are for games that survived not thrived. So of course they scaled back from what they planned on doing because the revenue they were expecting wasn't there. It wasn't there when they were subscription based. It's not F2P that doesn't generate enough money for them it's the game itself no mater what payment option used doesn't make enough money. The question is if LOTRO stayed P2P would it have made enough money to pay for the content rate it had planned. It seems like because they went to a F2P model to survive that no the P2P was not going to make any difference. Something was going to give. The last 6 months I played AoC there was amost nothing for updates, why, they were not making enough money. GW2 has constant updates, it is a sucessful game it is also B2P. 

It seems like the dynamic event system in place is capable of more. I wish they would invest in longer more complicated chains that span weeks or perhaps months depending on how they get steared by the players actions. I think they only scratch the surface. 
 
Time vs money argument. Time is more valuable or available to some players so they would like to eliminate the influence of money. But really it's always been there.  Yes it used to be against the game rules but the cottage industry of gold sellers didn't arrive because there was no demand.  I don't blame companies for filling the need. Seems like a no brainer for them. The answer to your question is simple the MMO crowd as a whole has always had players that have accepted this exchange.  Game companies, rather then fight these customers have accepted this and make money off of it now. 
Originally posted by Blaze_Rocker

A good article with many good points, unfortunately it was very painful to read in places. You might want to put some additional work into proper sentence structure and have one or two others do some early editing before you post future articles. This thing reads like you dropped out of english class, or at the very least you wrote it up at the last minute.

Here's wishing you all the best for the next one.

Sorry couldn't resist - 

We are entitled to a well written article on MMORPG.com. 

So the theory goes that the wolves need sheep. The problem is unlike the distant past the sheep have grazing ground that don't include wolves. So the question is how can we attract the sheep to where the wolves like to hunt? At the moment you can't there are too many options for the sheep to opt out of the wolves hunting grounds. 

Even if you make a game where the "carebears" have options they (we) always have the option of not having to deal with all the crap that comes with FFA. I doubt you can make it so attractive that the "carebears" will put up with the crap simply to provide you with the sheep you desire. Why the hell would  the "carebears" play that game when there are so many alternatives that don't require you to put up with bullshit? 

I can pay the 15 and I understood in the distant past that this money was needed for gear / bandwidth. That's no longer true, if it ever really was, so what do I get for my 15. I'm not just giving it away on the perception that I get a better game. In reality I don't. As a consumer want something for my money. 15 dollars is 1/4 of a game. Do I get 1/4 content every month? Or alternatively one complete games worth of content every 4 months? I have yet to see this amount of content happen. I think companies should make money but I'm not giving my money away so that they can do so. So are my choices right now are I'm a Cheapskate or a Fool? 
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by Ender4  

Originally posted by Muntz Combat-wise not much but will both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player. 
  I hope you are trolling because your opinion is completely absurd.
Not really. Go to any game forum with a PvP section. There will be build discussion and how to play that build. There will be questions on how to defeat a certain type of build. There are some players that can think and work outside the box but really not that many. The question was "fighting a player" I took that to mean the typical PvP player. 

 

People aren't robots. While they might use the same general strategy they won't use the same exact strategy and there is no single strategy even in say arena. Players react to what the other side does, mob AI just follows its scripts. Players constantly go off script. You fight the same person 10 times and most likely all 10 fights will go differently. You watch some high end arena play and you see something different every game. They might start the same but the results decide what the next step is.

Players are in no way shape or form close to AI in predictability so I fully stand by my statement.

As to PvP players I don't think I'm disagreeing with you especially when you say "high end" we must differ in how many of those are encountered in a game.  I only have empirical data. 

We certainly differ what a "great AI" could do. A computer AI does not have to be so linearly predictable. The AI can process more variables and react much faster then a human player. Typically the AI is dumbed down so it's easier. The question says "great AI"  Most mobs do not even come close to having a great AI. 

Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by Muntz
Combat-wise not much but will both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player. 


 

I hope you are trolling because your opinion is completely absurd.

Not really. Go to any game forum with a PvP section. There will be build discussion and how to play that build. There will be questions on how to defeat a certain type of build. There are some players that can think and work outside the box but really not that many. The question was "fighting a player" I took that to mean the typical PvP player. 

Combat-wise not much both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player. 

Aside from verbal the interaction difference others have pointed out there is another difference. The NPC isn't so driven that it will exploit every possible game weakness to gain an advantage. Nor will it buy third party utility programs. 

Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Muntz

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

Here is the problem; if your game has a million players, it has a million "yous" each of whom has different wants.  The companies job is not to pick a specific "you" and try to give him/her a perfect experience, it's to figure out how best to invest resources to keep as many "yous" spending money on the game as possible.  Often, that means content that doesn't make any particular you extremely excited, but manages to keep most of the people playing and paying in some form, which is the goal.

This is all true whether your pay system is purely sub, all cash shop, or a hybrid.  Cash shop and hybrid just mean a wider variety of options for the developer on how to make people want to stay.

Certainly, it is not to the point where I am individually marketed to so the wants are not specific to me but the customers as a group. Are you saying that they don't pretend it's just something that isn't marketed to me? That really hasn't been my experience more promise of something that leads to the delivery of something less or nothing at all. 

I agree that the payment method is not the deciding factor that was my main point. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Muntz

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

If you cannot make something they want to buy, how do you get their money?

 

One way is to make promises you really can't deliver on, delay and stall and/or provide something based on those promises that satisifys most but really isn't what you promised.  

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

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