Trending Games | WildStar | Neverwinter | Star Wars: The Old Republic | Elder Scrolls Online

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,640,226 Users Online:0
Games:681  Posts:6,074,816
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Everquest Next: Landmark Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

All Posts by Muntz

All Posts by Muntz

14 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last
268 posts found
I can pay the 15 and I understood in the distant past that this money was needed for gear / bandwidth. That's no longer true, if it ever really was, so what do I get for my 15. I'm not just giving it away on the perception that I get a better game. In reality I don't. As a consumer want something for my money. 15 dollars is 1/4 of a game. Do I get 1/4 content every month? Or alternatively one complete games worth of content every 4 months? I have yet to see this amount of content happen. I think companies should make money but I'm not giving my money away so that they can do so. So are my choices right now are I'm a Cheapskate or a Fool? 
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by Muntz

Originally posted by Ender4  

Originally posted by Muntz Combat-wise not much but will both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player. 
  I hope you are trolling because your opinion is completely absurd.
Not really. Go to any game forum with a PvP section. There will be build discussion and how to play that build. There will be questions on how to defeat a certain type of build. There are some players that can think and work outside the box but really not that many. The question was "fighting a player" I took that to mean the typical PvP player. 

 

People aren't robots. While they might use the same general strategy they won't use the same exact strategy and there is no single strategy even in say arena. Players react to what the other side does, mob AI just follows its scripts. Players constantly go off script. You fight the same person 10 times and most likely all 10 fights will go differently. You watch some high end arena play and you see something different every game. They might start the same but the results decide what the next step is.

Players are in no way shape or form close to AI in predictability so I fully stand by my statement.

As to PvP players I don't think I'm disagreeing with you especially when you say "high end" we must differ in how many of those are encountered in a game.  I only have empirical data. 

We certainly differ what a "great AI" could do. A computer AI does not have to be so linearly predictable. The AI can process more variables and react much faster then a human player. Typically the AI is dumbed down so it's easier. The question says "great AI"  Most mobs do not even come close to having a great AI. 

Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by Muntz
Combat-wise not much but will both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player. 


 

I hope you are trolling because your opinion is completely absurd.

Not really. Go to any game forum with a PvP section. There will be build discussion and how to play that build. There will be questions on how to defeat a certain type of build. There are some players that can think and work outside the box but really not that many. The question was "fighting a player" I took that to mean the typical PvP player. 

Combat-wise not much both will typically have cookie cutter builds with a predictable strategy that is published on a website along with how to counter it. Even a great AI will be as predictable as the typical PvP player. 

Aside from verbal the interaction difference others have pointed out there is another difference. The NPC isn't so driven that it will exploit every possible game weakness to gain an advantage. Nor will it buy third party utility programs. 

Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Muntz

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

Here is the problem; if your game has a million players, it has a million "yous" each of whom has different wants.  The companies job is not to pick a specific "you" and try to give him/her a perfect experience, it's to figure out how best to invest resources to keep as many "yous" spending money on the game as possible.  Often, that means content that doesn't make any particular you extremely excited, but manages to keep most of the people playing and paying in some form, which is the goal.

This is all true whether your pay system is purely sub, all cash shop, or a hybrid.  Cash shop and hybrid just mean a wider variety of options for the developer on how to make people want to stay.

Certainly, it is not to the point where I am individually marketed to so the wants are not specific to me but the customers as a group. Are you saying that they don't pretend it's just something that isn't marketed to me? That really hasn't been my experience more promise of something that leads to the delivery of something less or nothing at all. 

I agree that the payment method is not the deciding factor that was my main point. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Muntz

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

If you cannot make something they want to buy, how do you get their money?

 

One way is to make promises you really can't deliver on, delay and stall and/or provide something based on those promises that satisifys most but really isn't what you promised.  

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Muntz

Artificial Gills: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread992866/pg1

Limited slip differentials exist in pretty much all cars, and so do air bags and they actually save lives.

You can rent water jet packs: http://www.jetpackamerica.com/

I can't see what that little light thing is.

Are claiming I have no point? The technologies is available, hell it was in 1969 but we are not going to work in jet packs in 2014. Nor do we have virtual worlds with ecosystems in MMOs.  There certainly is an expectation of where technology will take us and how fast we will get there. Sometimes it meets expectation - slip differential sometimes it don''t. 

Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by dave6660
This debate also brings up another question in my mind.  If you are the sensitive type (being killed by another player bothers you enough to shout "sociopath") then why are you putting yourself in a situation where this can happen?



I don't think this really happens all that much. I think the scenario is actually a forum thing, not an in-game thing. The people who aren't interested in that type of game play aren't likely to play those types of games.

 

Reading this thread made me wonder if some of the people making these ridiculous claims realize it is a "video game" we're talking about here.

Video games lol

When I was kid, I used to play chess with my dad almost every day.  And he would beat me every day for quite some time.

Was he (a) a sociopath, or (b) better than me at chess.

Yeah, I think it would help if some players got out of house more and gained a little prospective.

Right but you and your dad were on exactly an even playing field. For some of this behavior it would be if your dad gave you a pawn and he had his full set and played you every day that way. 

I have not played an MMO that has not offered an alternative. I tend to play the hybrid classes that don't quite fit the trinity roles as well as the "desired" classes do. In any MMO there is usually a small set of players who enjoy doing something different. But for the most part players gravitate to the familiar and easy and the trinity offers that in spades. Although I don't think GW2 hit on perfection they did break this to some degree so that for, in most cases, all classes have value. For me being able to play the class you want the way you want is as desirable as wanting to fill a role. Maybe someone will merge these ideas so that they provide the most fun for the player. 

In my experience I see no real difference in payment model and community. The sub payment model has some effect on some people but really in both directions. Money isn't the only way for a player to invest in a game and feel committed. Money doesn't, in my experience, reduce the number of ass-hats. 

Originally posted by Frostvein
Originally posted by Muntz

I can't think of an MMO I've played that hasn't had growing pains i.e. been buggy, incomplete and unfinished. They are large complicated pieces of software and bugging, incomplete and unfinished are very difficult if not impossible to avoid. I don't really know of a game that was perfect at launch but I also don't expect them to be. I don't think they would ever launch a game if they waited for it to be perfect. 

 

Never said I expected a game to be perfect, but there was a world of difference between GW2's/Teras launch (endgame was a bit lacking) vs Tabula Rasa/SWTOR (buggy out the wazoo, unfinished, engine was crap, etc)

Oh I agree there are degrees. It's just that reading some of the other threads there is an expectation of higher quality in a P2P MMO. Initial releases have their warts how many will these games be allowed? I think just one big one even if it is short lived could turn the whole thing sour. 

Originally posted by Frostvein
Originally posted by MadDemon64
Originally posted by Frostvein
Originally posted by nariusseldon: (snip) History shows that sub-only p2p are likely to turn f2p.

History also shows that most of those games were buggy incomplete and unfinished messes.

 

What a shock that games that were released missing features with little to no endgame content buggy as all hell didn't do well and were forced to transition into F2P.

 

its like releasing a flip phone in 2013 that doesn't have internet access, email, wifi, or a touch-screen and then acting surprised when it doesn't outsell the iPhone or other Android devices.

 

 

So Aion, TERA, SWTOR, Rift, and CoX, all were buggy, incomplete, and unfinished messes?

 

I didn't play a few of those games, so I can't comment. But SWTOR was buggy/unfinished/lacked endgame content, Tera lacked endgame content (its original launch in Korea was more of the unfinished type, but they polished the release for NA)

Not to mention some of those have horrible IPs. 

 

The issue has been and always will be that people are willing to pay a monthly sub for something they deem worthy. WoW, EVE, and several other old school games are still going strong as sub only. The problem has been that most recent releases are not worth the monthly sub, mostly because they are critically flawed in multiple ways, or just don't have the advantage of a strong IP that will carry them.

 

We can argue semantics, but at the end of the day most F2P MMOs are usually just P2P games that couldn't hack it and changed their payment system to stay alive.

 

 

I can't think of an MMO I've played that hasn't had growing pains i.e. been buggy, incomplete and unfinished. They are large complicated pieces of software and bugging, incomplete and unfinished are very difficult if not impossible to avoid. I don't really know of a game that was perfect at launch but I also don't expect them to be. I don't think they would ever launch a game if they waited for it to be perfect. 

These are businesses and they are trying to make a profit not pander to some noble cause. All this strange talk of cash grap, freeloaders and socialism in the healthy highly competitive capitalistic market that is MMOs. Sure if they feel they can make more money they will go down the F2P road. There is no committing to anything, companies survive and some of the conversions from P2P to F2P were done for survival other profit. I'm sure if they feel that committing to P2P will get them more subs they will do it but I have no doubt they will go back on it if the only way they see to survive is F2P. As a customer for me payment model is a factor but not the sole factor and I don't believe it makes a game good or bad. 

At this point in time a subscription will have to be a whole step better then any B2P game or it will have a very difficult time staying as a sub. I think that is a pretty tall order. It is way too earlier for those that want sub only games to celebrate. The trend is there, none of these yet to be released games has bucked it yet. That is you start as a P2P you transition to a B2P or F2P. There is no question for the game developer that the sub model has the potential of a better income stream but there is no guarantee that you will get it. 
Originally posted by eric_w66

BUY THIS GAME, THEN KEEP PAYING TO BE ABLE TO PLAY IT!

The MMO industry has gotten away with highway robbery for years!

I feel the same way about my phone service! And my cable service! And all the restaurants I eat at! How dare they charge me again and again! I already bought their product once!

A restaurant is a bad example it's not a service. You view an MMO as a service and that is fine. I know you don't watch TV for free because that is paid for by someone else money and you wouldn't freeload like that. I bet you would never use free WiFi or at least you put a $20 in the tip jar if you do so you feel like your paying for it. 

Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by mrputts
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by mrputts
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by mrputts

I feel P2P games can and will survive the modern era. The thing that appeals to me about P2P is everything in the game is unlocked. No pay to unlock weapons/classes/bagslots/ etc...

 

The thing is with games like WOW charging 15 bucks a month you get all that content. When a new game is buggy, content lacking, and full of development short cuts (instancing zones, balance issues) but they charge the same exact amount as WoW  you are not getting the same amount of content/quality for the same price.

 

That is what I feel keeps P2P games looking bad right now. F2P if it sucks "whatever it's free right?" P2P if it sucks "Fuck that I am not paying for some half finished beta bullshit!"

 

But thats just it isn't it? I can not think of a game P2P or other that wasn't "half finished" in that some aspect of the game needed more fleshing out. It seems like comparitively they all have some degree of suck at the beginning. 

FFXI wasn't half finished. Tera wasn't half finished(tho it did have bugs all through launch that were around since closed beta so meh). Rift definitely wasn't half finished. I'm willing to bet money that FFXIV: ARR won't be half finished otherwise, some japanese people will need to commit seppuku.

FF11 was around before wow and held a good bit of subs (WoW raised the bar on what was excepted) Tera was unfinished there were no raids (or endgame really at all) at launch. Rift never played can't comment.  Couldn't remember my log in details so missed out on the beta for ffxiv. But the first incarnation of it was broken and fail else it would not have been redone.

 

The point is if the value is not there neither will the subs. 

 

Also I think what makes P2P games fail is the quick time it takes to reach endgame. If there was enough to do and it took you 6 months to reach the endgame not 6 weeks. Then there would be people paying for longer. 

I agree with you on endgame although I have little interest at this point in playing a game that takes 6mo to level because for the amount of time I can commit to play that would be x10. If a game could make the journey fun instead of putting so much emphasis on end-game it could be worth it. Hell I might reconsider and play such a game if the journey was actually fun. From past P2P games I know that there are huge gaps in the journey that weren't that fun.  The thought of having to stretch those out over a longer period of time makes me avoid these hard leveling grinders. 

 

And this is a good reason why games that are P2P fail. No offense to you intended, but really and truly you are the reason P2P fails devs cater to you. So the rest of the MMO world burn through the little leveling content there is quickly. Then get bored and hang out in that game's version of orgrimmar being bored because the content was burnt to fast. So they go "Fuck this game ain't worth 15 bucks a month." and bail.

I disagree for his very next sentence is the actual reason why games that are P2P fail(in addition to making us level way to fast).

 

The red is the major reason why p2p mmo's of late have been failing, along with the fact that they let us players level to cap insanely fast and we consume what little content they have released because we reached max level within just days of purchase and we're done and bored.

 

The journey to end game isn't even long enough to be called a journey. It's just a skip really. If the leveling process is where the bulk of the funds of a game is spent to improve and 'end-game' was just a bonus for people who made it that far, then the mmorpg genre would finally be in sight of the pearly gates.

 

But until a dev studio realizes this, we'll have to do with shit game after shit game, with the occasional shined and polished gem but still even thoughs gems aren't worth that much, what we really want is gold but we settle for now.

No offense taken, MrPutts. I understand that folks like me have a role in what games have become. But developers would only cater to people like me because we are a big enough source of revenue to go after. It's not that I want a pure endgame only game it is that it's the path of least resistance for the developer.  If you think about it if your a developer there is a big down side to making the journey more complete if your trading that off of making endgame.  The journey is one-off (ignoring alts) content for the player where as endgame provides a more lasting content.  If you focus on the endgame and you feel you need to appeal to players like me so you shorten the leveling curve. (I say "feel" but I'm sure there is plenty of market research for you to make a decision off of) 

Originally posted by mrputts
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by mrputts

I feel P2P games can and will survive the modern era. The thing that appeals to me about P2P is everything in the game is unlocked. No pay to unlock weapons/classes/bagslots/ etc...

 

The thing is with games like WOW charging 15 bucks a month you get all that content. When a new game is buggy, content lacking, and full of development short cuts (instancing zones, balance issues) but they charge the same exact amount as WoW  you are not getting the same amount of content/quality for the same price.

 

That is what I feel keeps P2P games looking bad right now. F2P if it sucks "whatever it's free right?" P2P if it sucks "Fuck that I am not paying for some half finished beta bullshit!"

 

But thats just it isn't it? I can not think of a game P2P or other that wasn't "half finished" in that some aspect of the game needed more fleshing out. It seems like comparitively they all have some degree of suck at the beginning. 

FFXI wasn't half finished. Tera wasn't half finished(tho it did have bugs all through launch that were around since closed beta so meh). Rift definitely wasn't half finished. I'm willing to bet money that FFXIV: ARR won't be half finished otherwise, some japanese people will need to commit seppuku.

FF11 was around before wow and held a good bit of subs (WoW raised the bar on what was excepted) Tera was unfinished there were no raids (or endgame really at all) at launch. Rift never played can't comment.  Couldn't remember my log in details so missed out on the beta for ffxiv. But the first incarnation of it was broken and fail else it would not have been redone.

 

The point is if the value is not there neither will the subs. 

 

Also I think what makes P2P games fail is the quick time it takes to reach endgame. If there was enough to do and it took you 6 months to reach the endgame not 6 weeks. Then there would be people paying for longer. 

I agree with you on endgame although I have little interest at this point in playing a game that takes 6mo to level because for the amount of time I can commit to play that would be x10. If a game could make the journey fun instead of putting so much emphasis on end-game it could be worth it. Hell I might reconsider and play such a game if the journey was actually fun. From past P2P games I know that there are huge gaps in the journey that weren't that fun.  The thought of having to stretch those out over a longer period of time makes me avoid these hard leveling grinders. 

Originally posted by mrputts

I feel P2P games can and will survive the modern era. The thing that appeals to me about P2P is everything in the game is unlocked. No pay to unlock weapons/classes/bagslots/ etc...

 

The thing is with games like WOW charging 15 bucks a month you get all that content. When a new game is buggy, content lacking, and full of development short cuts (instancing zones, balance issues) but they charge the same exact amount as WoW  you are not getting the same amount of content/quality for the same price.

 

That is what I feel keeps P2P games looking bad right now. F2P if it sucks "whatever it's free right?" P2P if it sucks "Fuck that I am not paying for some half finished beta bullshit!"

 

But thats just it isn't it? I can not think of a game P2P or other that wasn't "half finished" in that some aspect of the game needed more fleshing out. It seems like comparitively they all have some degree of suck at the beginning. 

14 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last