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All Posts by Muntz

All Posts by Muntz

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324 posts found
Originally posted by Burntvet

Another game that was not good enough to warrant charging a sub fee...

This is a surprise? This is news?


Not really.... that is the fate of "meh" MMOs these days.

Not saying WS is the be all end all but what MMO would be good enough to sub? 

MMO seem to need time to mature rarely is everything available or perfect at launch. I can see where there is more toleration for this in a F2P game. After all you and download it and try it for free. When all MMOs were P2P players were more tolerent of a rocky launch with missing content. All I'm saying is the bar seems pretty high for a game released now as P2P. Seems like there are quite a few quality F2P games out there, yes many started as P2P but now that they are F2P they set the bar. WS has had a year to mature. From comments here and other threads it is a much better game then when it launched but that hasn't helped it attract players. So does a P2P game have to be better then any F2P game out there at release? Where is the bar set for warranting a sub fee? It certainly is much higher then the MMOs of nostalgia. 


pong then solidified with rogue
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

You're most likely not a "filthy degenerate", but your post doesn't make any sense, since all the people saying they would be ready to pay more insisted on the high quality of the game and/or the services offered for the price.
 Silly exagerations don't make an argument.

In what way is such a cost realistic in value though? It seems a silly exaggeration in and of itself to me.

It seems to me the up front cost to build such a game would be astronomical. Even then there is no guarantee that it could deliver a high quality experience out of the box. A single bug or glitch could spell doom because the consumers feel cheated. At more then twice what they paid for their last MMO and it's not a complete rock solid game. 

Originally posted by Kilrain
Originally posted by Distopia

What exactly do those screens tell us on the subject? Fail indeed.

A large organized group of players following specific rules in order to overcome an objective vs throwing as many players as you can at the enemy because numbers will win regardless of organization.


The problem with this argument is that they're nothing alike. In EQ this is a group or raid of players teaming up to take down an NPC that REQUIRES this number of people and lots of organization to overcome. In Black Desert this is a pvp .. um.. arena area where they are pitting 100 vs 100 players against each other. Neither of these are actually zergs at all. IF in Black Desert this were open world PVP and one side gathered 100 people to fight against 10 just because numbers win, then that is a zerg.


What I believe the OP is trying to convey is the utter disastrous mess that ends up happening when having an arena pvp of this magnitude. Some people might like it. I personally find it pointless and not rewarding in any way.

That's really apples and oranges isn't it? Most MMOs I've played with open world PvP have zergs. Most MMOs I've played with instanced PvE raids have required coordination.  The sky is blue and the grass is green. 

I know GW2 was brought up and early on because you could infinitiely rez and there were multiple rez spots  you could keep dieing and joining a fight in the dungeon. In effect you could zerg it. They changed it and at least up until I quit playing there were plenty of dungeon encounters that required so coordination to complete. Sure it didn't take an hour up front to describe but then again we are talking about 5 players vs 20+ so I would hope it would be easier. Sorry I don't know the current state of affairs and you just face roll dungeons in GW 2 now? 

Originally posted by VikingGamer
And this is why discussions about trinity combat mechanics crash and burn over and over again.

Of course, IMHO most threads turn into an argument over definitions. Since there is no agreement on them most threads crash and burn. This one just started with a definition. 

Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Nightbringe1
Originally posted by Quirhid

Does it matter what it was originally?

How can you define something you do not understand?

Well technically that is what the "neither, I will explain" option is for

Not sure you need the history to define the modern use of the term. Can we not agree the modern context is Tank, Healer and DPS?

The history lesson is  nice but  really seems  to muddy the water and give folks something to argue about. 

Originally posted by Archlyte
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by Kaladin

These threads....


Trinity is best because I like it.

Trinity sucks because I don't like it.


Criminy, can different games with different combat styles just be seen as different and neither being better or worse?  Just more of the same old filth of "if you like what I don't like, you are wrong, you are bad, and should feel bad."

I agree there, trinity is one game style, 'alternatives' are different styles of gameplay.  Different game styles for different audiences (or even audiaeces that like both)  no brainer.

I think the problem occurs when you are interested in a game but it only offers one combat style that you hate. Now you have a dilemma.

I've said before that I hate the trinity but in thinking about it I hate any overly simplified system. The trinity doesn't have to be that but in many games it is. If all it boils down is some tanks, some healers and a boat load of dps with the strat being tank and spank for the most part. Then that is atrociously boring. I agree that a zerging alternative is also bad but it is an extreme often presented to discredit anything that isn't the trinity.

So no I don't like tank and spank and I don't like zerging. 

For me the system should make everyone or most everyone critical to the fight in some way. No one should be able to hide trinity or not.  

Originally posted by mazut
Originally posted by Muntz

Thought this one was kind of lame, Grenth in GW was better -


Its actually Dhuum, not Grenth :)

You are correct, my bad. 

Thought this one was kind of lame, Grenth in GW was better -


Are you asking that if in a world where there is massive uncertainty about development deadlines and actual cost coupled with marketing that has to say something to sell a game that has yet to be developed with good sums of money on the line, did lying occur? 

Of course it did, I'd say in every game to some extent. 

We can argue over how intent maybe. 

So, if I understand in a F2P game (I'll asume you consider B2P just another form for the sake of argument) you feel obligated to keep up with the Joneses through the cash shop. 

In a P2P game, however, you wouldn't dare spend anything outside the Sub. Even though, almost since there begining gold and items have been availible in markets outside of the games control. There were/are plenty of Jones that will go that route but you don't feel competative enough to violate the EULA.

You will only spend like a drunk sailor if the game legitamizes it. And therefore F2P MMO are way more expensive for players like you. 

Originally posted by vandal5627
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by vandal5627
Every game ever created that had a subscription model merits a subscription to SOMEONE.  No justification needed.

I was never looking for justification. Nor was I looking for whether you would personally sub a game. And I really don't care about whether someone is entitled to this or that. 

The real question I was trying to ask was about viability. In context of ESO and WildStar the two latest AAA games to attempt subscription. With ESO going B2P and WildStar rumored to possibly go. Neither of these games was a polished product at launch but they were far more advanced then any of the successful games of the past. Those games had much more time to grow. Is it even possible to launch a subscription game in todays market? 

FFXIV is an interesting case. It had a horrible launch. They suspended the sub and I'd say doubled down on the investment re-launching as realm-reborn. So, after two development efforts they have something that seems to be worthy of a subscription. That took balls, funds to pull off and a dedicated fan base. They must have invested amost twice the amount of money they originally intended.  But it's a pretty unique case. I  don't think you can typically launch, suspend the subscription until you have developed a game that is worthy of one. Then tell everyone hey your going to have to pay a subscription to keep playing. 

The real question should've been asked in the first place.  You asked a question, it was answered in the manner it was asked.

Also, if the real question about viability of subscription then why turn around and talk about a game being worthy of a subscription or not.  Looks to me that I responded to the real question after all.

The question was asked with respect to a game meriting a subscription with respect to viability that was clarified in the original post text. You certainly can feel I was not clear in my explaination, thats your call, not going to argue that further. 

Originally posted by Dullahan

The inability to stay profitable under a subscription is the result of casual game design and choosing to emulate rather than innovate.  When games were unique, this was not an issue. 

It wasn't just about there being less competition, there were still 10+ big name games 10 years ago, yet all of them found success in the subscription because they all offered something a little different.  People argue that today theres "soo many options" but in reality there isn't for most people.  Anyone that takes an objective look at the long list of games on this site knows there might be 10 games that are relevant and still have something to offer the average player today.  Its really no different than it was 10 years ago.  The vast majority of people are still playing 5-10 major titles and then maybe a small fraction are outliers playing something you've probably never heard of and wouldn't want to if you did.

The second problem is casual design.  When you choose to make your game casual friendly by offering convenience and accessibility, you generally eliminate the need for players to commit to a long term investment in your game.  Its the classic case of fast food gaming where players come and go after devouring the shallow content you had to offer.  Maybe you can keep producing enough to keep them coming back down the line, but maybe you can't.

If a game comes along that using an older design model, I believe the subscription will work just fine as it once did.  For instance, if a traditional mmorpg was released today with virtually no competition, people who enjoyed the game would pay the sub because theres simply nothing else remotely like it.  People interested in that type of game are not easily tempted by modern mmos.

I would argue that games today launch with more to do then 10 years ago, well for me 14 years ago, is that the nature of a "casual" game? Granted that isn't necessarly innovative and I'd rather not get into an argument over what is and isn't innovative. Been there on this site, nobody will agree. I'll just leave it at that things have changed such that there is more to do then there was 14 years ago. The content does seem to be consumed faster then ever purhaps the casual design is too throw away and doesn't repeat. But in the older games there wasn't really that many options so you repeated because you had to. 

For older games, the leveling curve was longer but that didn't result in greater game play just tedium. I can appreciate what kind of social environment of shared pain that created, that certainly has been missing in the newer mmos. I don't think anyone has captured that with what you call "casual game design". 


Originally posted by Nightbringe1

The funny thing is: F2P games tend to be the most expensive.

Games designed around a subscription don't require the endless (and expensive) micro-transactions to get anywhere.

I support 4 gamers playing GW2. Granted it's a B2P game but many on this site don't see a difference between that and F2P. We don't spend real money in the cash shop. It's not more expensive then a sub game it's far less. 

If you see a difference between B2P and F2P then disregard. I certainly couldn't affort a micro-transaction F2P game that bled me dry. 

Originally posted by Torval

For me, it's not whether a game is worth a subscription. I'm paying a sub for LotRO and ESO right now.

The point is that I'm not going to play a game that has a mandatory sub. I'm not going to rent my games anymore, at least not as a standard practice. I just hate doing that.

In the larger picture, again from my perspective, it's not whether a game merits a subscription, but that I don't think most games benefit from locking themselves behind a sub service. They can do better financially and engage more players by dropping the subscription requirement and either selling access to their game (B2P) or just going straight F2P. Nearly every game on the market, and certainly any major title has multiple revenue streams (cash shop, subscription, rmt conversion, DLC, etc). I just don't see the overall benefit for a company to require a sub.

The exceptions:

WoW is always the exception. ActiBlizz does what it wants with WoW and its users accept that. That's true not just with monetization, but their game design, server structure, graphics, etc. Rules and paradigms that apply to most games don't apply to WoW the same way. So that should just be excluded from the equation for what works for other games.

FF14 is another one. They own the IP. They develop and publish the IP. They aren't beholden to many external forces and can run their games, not just FF14, any way they want, and they do. They are more concerned about their PR image and corporate culture than they are about maximizing profits, at least with their MMO. It's the same logic they use to decide what platforms a game will support and release on. They could make more money releasing everything on PC or making HD remakes, but they choose not to arbitrarily at their whim based on their corporate philosophy. Any company in this position, like Nintendo, does the same thing.

A few older moldering legacy games. Some games like Ryzom have their audience. Their audience isn't going to grow dramatically and they are happy paying how the game offers itself. It's not worth the money to add a cash shop or drastically change revenue models. It could hurt them a lot more than it could help.

That's my five bucks.

Fair points, particularly, at this point in time why lock your game into a sub model or even a b2p. Why don't games launch with multiple options including a subscription option? There are games with multiple options out there but they went to it over time. Why not just start there? I can't think of a game that did. 

Originally posted by vandal5627
Every game ever created that had a subscription model merits a subscription to SOMEONE.  No justification needed.

I was never looking for justification. Nor was I looking for whether you would personally sub a game. And I really don't care about whether someone is entitled to this or that. 

The real question I was trying to ask was about viability. In context of ESO and WildStar the two latest AAA games to attempt subscription. With ESO going B2P and WildStar rumored to possibly go. Neither of these games was a polished product at launch but they were far more advanced then any of the successful games of the past. Those games had much more time to grow. Is it even possible to launch a subscription game in todays market? 

FFXIV is an interesting case. It had a horrible launch. They suspended the sub and I'd say doubled down on the investment re-launching as realm-reborn. So, after two development efforts they have something that seems to be worthy of a subscription. That took balls, funds to pull off and a dedicated fan base. They must have invested amost twice the amount of money they originally intended.  But it's a pretty unique case. I  don't think you can typically launch, suspend the subscription until you have developed a game that is worthy of one. Then tell everyone hey your going to have to pay a subscription to keep playing. 

Originally posted by Viper482
I will take a good sub game over a game built around a cash shop any day.

I understand the sentiment. 

In the grand context of MMO's is ESO a good game? Not great but good. I understand everyone will not agree but objectively I think it is good. It could not stand as a subscription game. I'm saying it couldn't buy enough time with the subscriptions to evolve into a game where enough people felt it merited a subscription. 


Look at the past, the turd that AO was at release had much more time to evolve as a game.  The developer could ride the subscription money  while they did so. That luxury does not exist today.

I think to survive as a sub game from release today a  game would have to be great out of the box. Further, I think it is close to impossible for that to happen. 

I was looking at it in context of ESO and Wildstar.  From an outside observer (I don't own the games) the launches were far and away better then any of the game I played when sub was king. There was more to do in these games too. The both seemed committed to being subs. I'm sure we can all point to issues and dislikes but as both these game are evolving; they are getting better. In the past a sub game had time to do this. Now it doesn't look like that is true. Sure there are too many options but I also believe the bar is too high. 

WoW and Eve are much older games and were launched in the sub era. They had time to evolve. 

FFXIV maybe is a different case. Square Enix seemed to put an over the top effort in to keep it from being a bust. I doubt many developers can do what they did. 

The games of the past I played all had subscriptions that was what was done in those times.  So, a bad release or even a decent release with a smaller then expected amount of content wasn't the death knell of the subscription. There simple was only one payment model.  It seemed like companies had years to fix everything and add the appropreate level of content. Not true now a days. I don't wonder if the standard required for a game to merit a subscription is too high for a newly released game to meet. Even if your supported by deep pockets as time goes on there will be a great deal of pressure to release. For such a complex piece of software your done basically when you need cash flow. That isn't going to be a fully completed game. 

GW1 - Necro 

Before the capped minions, as long as you created the bodies you could have as many as you liked. 

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