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All Posts by CrazKanuk

All Posts by CrazKanuk

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1902 posts found

So, basically, to sum up, nobody should spend any money on video games at all. Period. Right? We should just give all our money to charity. 

 

That's a very noble and just cause, but you're making the assumption that none of us donate to charity as it is. Also, your assertions about the level of government funding is completely out of line. Government funding represents about a 5-10% portion. For instance, the government support for the United way in 2015 was $270M compared to $4.3B in funds raised. So, basically, the amount raised by the United Way, alone, is more than double what is raised through Kickstarter. 

 

Also, those people actually creating products could be creating jobs, for all you know. Star Citizen currently has 250 people working on it. Also, if you think that the "poor" don't get any donations you're flat out wrong as well. If that was the case, there wouldn't be professional beggars. You've seen them, come on. 

 

Here's the fact. I don't view Kickstarter as a charity, I view it as a pre-order and I WILL play my games and order games, in general. If the time comes when I put money into a project that DOESN'T get released then I guess I'll have to deal with that, but to date I haven't had that happen to me. Until then, I've got $20 burning a hole in my pocket since I only spent $25 on Pillars of Eternity (that ACTUALLY costs $45). What should I do with it? Hmmmmmm, idk, maybe I'll give it to a charity, maybe I'll buy a game. One thing I can tell you is it won't get dropped into some crusader standing on the corner thumping a bible, telling me how horrible a person I am and how I need to give him money to avoid eternal damnation.

This isn't the solution, sorry. I've said it before and I'll say it again, what I see as one of the best systems currently is Destiny. You serve up 15-20 hours of content and then you simply open up the gameplay and let people do what they want. It definitely has it's own downfalls, things that could be overcome with PC, such as ACTUAL communication with people, but the concept, the framework is sound. 

 

Sorry, OP, I'm definitely not up for models with artificially-inflated progression models specifically designed to have me paying for the next 10 years. I think that the problem is that we look back fondly on some of the older games like vanilla WoW, EQ, SWG, and we think, "MAN!! That was so epic" therefore that MUST be what's missing right now. I really don't think that's the case. Anyone who remembers those days clearly remembers complaining and lamenting at length about the grind. The main difference is that you were usually whining about it with friends. 

 

The biggest issue with levelling systems, in my opinion, is that you create an ever-increasing gap between you and your friends. If you play more than them then you'll, ultimately, be chasing a bigger carrot and you won't look back, leaving them behind. Create story content where everyone is at the same level in 15 or 20 hours and that is removed. Gear-based progression is still there, the developer will need to be more dedicated to new content creation, but it's a step toward re-creating community, which is what's missing. 

Originally posted by Flyte27
Originally posted by CrazKanuk

I think it's more about the individual than the game, to be honest. I've gone through similar cycles, and they actually come more frequently now, too. The worlds may be a little diluted and the stories may be more generic, but the fact is that you KNOW it's going to take you 2 or 3 months to get to the end game, and that's a drag. Shoot, I even put down Dragon Age Inquisition because I was fed up with the artificially inflated storyline. I find that fewer and fewer people really give a crap about the story or world they're playing in, so it's merely a race to the "end".

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can see the formula changing. I can see more games going the way of Destiny. 15-20 hours of story content and then you just play with friends. Not saying they got it "right" but I think that's probably where we'll see things headed. Sort of a 180 in the time time investment model that's out there now. 90% endgame and 10% story. 

I think when you start playing just for the loot then there isn't much point anymore.

I don't believe old MMOs had great storytelling, but there were a lot of RPGs that did.  There is a lot that goes into story telling and I find it is a bit of a lost art.  It is a lot more then just writing good text.  You need some good music to set the tone for the scene and you a variety of characters with varying different personalities.  You need good emotes and scripted events that trigger different emotions.  You also need some kind of conflict of good vs evil.  I find most people want to do away with good vs evil, but it really is the main driving force of these types of games (RPG).

Totally agree on the loot. I'm not necessarily talking about looting alone, though. I'm saying that most games throw up a 300 or 400 hour barrier before you can play with your friends. I think that's a big turn-off for many. I think there's so much more than can be done, like with the good vs evil idea, by reducing that initial barrier and letting people play with their friends, than having them solo grind for a few hundred hours, which seems to be the prevailing way to do things now. 

 

Story can be extended at the endgame, as can conflict. It's just that time investment I think is difficult for many to overcome, or care about for that matter. 

I think it's more about the individual than the game, to be honest. I've gone through similar cycles, and they actually come more frequently now, too. The worlds may be a little diluted and the stories may be more generic, but the fact is that you KNOW it's going to take you 2 or 3 months to get to the end game, and that's a drag. Shoot, I even put down Dragon Age Inquisition because I was fed up with the artificially inflated storyline. I find that fewer and fewer people really give a crap about the story or world they're playing in, so it's merely a race to the "end".

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say that I can see the formula changing. I can see more games going the way of Destiny. 15-20 hours of story content and then you just play with friends. Not saying they got it "right" but I think that's probably where we'll see things headed. Sort of a 180 in the time time investment model that's out there now. 90% endgame and 10% story. 

Well, apart from tools, I'm assuming that human resources is the single most costly expense to making any sort of game. If you're doing it in your mom's garage, then it might be the only expense. So I really, really, really hope that when I donate to a game, they do spend the money on themselves. 

 

Oh, and it should also be noted that if you donate to the game where there pitch is, "Hey there community! My name is Chad! I've never done anything like this before, but I've loved games forever!!! I've been playing video games for the last 10 years and now it's time for me to develop one!!! I've seen all the mistakes being made by these so-called 'designers' and I'm here to fix those problems. I have plenty of great ideas that I KNOW people want to see in a game. I plan on having lots of systems in place. I plan on having innovative gameplay. I plan on having an open world. Also, I will be doing away with this crappy cartoon WoW art-style and going with pure, 4k photo-realistic graphics. 

Backers! I need your support. I know that with your help, we can make this happen. That's why I'm asking for $20,000 today. I know we can make this dream a reality, so join me today and say yes to change!" 

 

If you throw money at that, I've got a few good ventures I could use your help with. For the most part, though, these people never get funded. In addition, Kickstarter campaigns are becoming much more mature and people are wanting to see more before they invest into anything. Shoot, even CU was in trouble for a time, they were trending towards failure. 

 

 

Originally posted by MadFrenchie
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Arawulf
Originally posted by Rusque

Kickstarter has been great for single player games imo, we've gotten some good stuff.

As far as MMO's . . . I see a 0% success rate so far, what good (released) MMO's have come from kickstarter? PoE was crowdfunded but not through kickstarter.

If you're talking a full-fledge AAA themepark MMO, I would agree since those are massive projects (that are going the way of the dinosaur, by the way illustrated by Blizzard cancelling Titan, Bioware cancelling Shadow Realms and the uncertainty behind EQNext). 

Crowdfunding CAN work for more niche MMO's that don't require the massive expense or manpower to produce. These are the type of MMO's we're going to start seeing since going for mass market in this business hasn't been a very profitable endeavor (unless your title has Warcraft in it).

Yes, that's the idea behind kickstarter. I'm not asking for AAA themeparks, I'm just asking what good MMO's have come from this process? And yes, released. It's an important distinction, everything is amazing while it's in development because people can project their desires onto an unfinished item. I can't think of any, doesn't mean there aren't any, but from my perspective it hasn't been very useful for MMO's.

Well we didn't really have any professional projects that would fit the KS+MMORPG bill until recently. (I could have missed something ofcourse)

So for me the verdict is still out until this new batch of games actually releases. Some of them seem to be shaping up nicely.

 

Yeah, I think I've come across maybe 20 or 30 doing a quick search (some actually released). That being said, probably half them are low-concept, simple projects that I wouldn't consider having any real risk to begin with. Obviously the bigger projects like The Repopulation, SC, CU, SotA, City of Titans, are all still outstanding. That's the group of games that I'd gauge how effective it is, though. Can this really be done? I don't even know if I'd lump The Repop in there, only because it's basically an unproven studio. That being said, it speaks a lot to their resilience and dedication that The Repop is where it is. 

Kickstarter has proven it can support the development of a great game.  However, MMORPGs are a unique breed of game, presenting many unique challenges you won't find in other genres.  I'll be very disappointed if CU and City of Titans turn out to be duds.  DAoC and CoH were two of my favorite MMORPG experiences.

Yeah, Shards Online will be a big one for me. Biggest difference is that I feel like CU and CoT are much more grass-roots KS campaigns. They were much more conceptual in nature than Shards, or many other bigger titles (Crowfall included). So I think it's a testament to KS that games are going further these days to show us something compelling in order to get our money. 

Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Arawulf
Originally posted by Rusque

Kickstarter has been great for single player games imo, we've gotten some good stuff.

As far as MMO's . . . I see a 0% success rate so far, what good (released) MMO's have come from kickstarter? PoE was crowdfunded but not through kickstarter.

If you're talking a full-fledge AAA themepark MMO, I would agree since those are massive projects (that are going the way of the dinosaur, by the way illustrated by Blizzard cancelling Titan, Bioware cancelling Shadow Realms and the uncertainty behind EQNext). 

Crowdfunding CAN work for more niche MMO's that don't require the massive expense or manpower to produce. These are the type of MMO's we're going to start seeing since going for mass market in this business hasn't been a very profitable endeavor (unless your title has Warcraft in it).

Yes, that's the idea behind kickstarter. I'm not asking for AAA themeparks, I'm just asking what good MMO's have come from this process? And yes, released. It's an important distinction, everything is amazing while it's in development because people can project their desires onto an unfinished item. I can't think of any, doesn't mean there aren't any, but from my perspective it hasn't been very useful for MMO's.

Well we didn't really have any professional projects that would fit the KS+MMORPG bill until recently. (I could have missed something ofcourse)

So for me the verdict is still out until this new batch of games actually releases. Some of them seem to be shaping up nicely.

 

Yeah, I think I've come across maybe 20 or 30 doing a quick search (some actually released). That being said, probably half them are low-concept, simple projects that I wouldn't consider having any real risk to begin with. Obviously the bigger projects like The Repopulation, SC, CU, SotA, City of Titans, are all still outstanding. That's the group of games that I'd gauge how effective it is, though. Can this really be done? I don't even know if I'd lump The Repop in there, only because it's basically an unproven studio. That being said, it speaks a lot to their resilience and dedication that The Repop is where it is. 

Originally posted by Muke
Originally posted by DeSadeWhirlfist

 

Sincerely,

31 year veteran gamer. Atari got played at the age of 4, hooked on NES/Arcade at 5yr old. Gamer of more hours then any employee at Frontier Development.

Serious, if you haven't played original Pong, original Pacman/Space Invaders and the like, Magnavox-ves-Spectrum-Atari 2600-C64 then you are not a veteran. :P

Pong? How about a pong console?!??!? Now THAT is hardcore. 

 

Sorry, but I find it VERY difficult to believe that you were alt-tabbed for 23 hours. Oh! On top of that, I would definitely try taking a console game back to Wal-Mart or Gamestop after you've only played it for 23 hours and tell them you just didn't like it. Sorry, they won't take it back. Maybe buying games without a trial isn't the best idea for the OP. 

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by Kiyoris
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

The link in my signature

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/172837/Kickstarter_success_rate_for_games_even_lower_than_initially_reported.php

 

That's all games, not just MMOs

so how much money is needed to make a indie MMO without crowdfunding?

It's not about money, you could make a small scale 2D MMO

the projects fail because they don't have any control, ppl run off with the cash, most good developers aren't on kickstarter, etc

making a successful game takes MORE than just money, it takes things like oversight and professionalism, neither of which can be found at kickstarter

besides, there are enough MMO to choose form, I don't know why people waste their money on kickstarter just to play an unfinished MMO

 

for every 1 succesful Kickstarter project, there are 1000 like these:

You arent really good at percetages. 43% is how many out of 1000?

"Successfully funded game projects have so far raised $26.4 million on Kickstarter, one of the highest totals out of all the categories, behind design, music, and film and video." (June 21, 2012)

Thats much less than 1 AAA game cost. If you delve into AAA MMOs thats only a fraction of those cost, and you can nicely see how those did (with only 1 exception)

And if you take Titan into consideration, just 1 publisher game lost more than if ANY game from KS never releases (as this also includes board and card games not just video games) lol

By your logic there are no good MMO developers anywhere.

But if we take smashing hits from KS like W2, POE, DOS (among others) KS is actually doing great

 

Totally agree, 100%.

 

And as far as the link being quoted, IT WAS FROM 2012!!!!!! I've done a sampling of over 10% of the projects on KS and last updated at the end of 2014 and the delivery of projects to day was at around 66%. Oh, and maybe I'll do a sampling to see what the success rate is for projects which actually matter (like 100K or more). I'll bet it's pretty high, although even Chivalry was funded at 50K (as was Shards Online). Again, it's more about education than anything else. Some people might be surprised when their kid gets lead poisoning from a metal toy made in China. Others might say they expect it. As KS matures, people will become more educated on what's realistic and they'll make more informed choices. 

 

As far as the number from Kiyoris, I suppose we could exaggerate about any number. I hear people, almost on a daily basis, telling others about how they "LITERALLY ate a billion bags of chips on the weekend." Unfortunately it seems that exaggeration wins out over reality and logic these days, THANKS INTERNET!!

 

Originally posted by artfulpain
'All aboard Hype Train express, NEXT STOP don't fail me now city!' 

Well, every game has a hype train. Therefore there is absolutely no differentiating between a game being good or bad based on the press. It's kinda like saying "Ooooo, GTA V hype train!!! Toot! Toot!! Next up! Fail City!!" 

 

Sorry, I just hear the word "hype train" and giggle, like some people believe that there are these games that simply materialize out of thin air. 

First, let's me completely clear. There's absolutely no evidence that SC is what people want. Oh, and I say this as a backer of the project. 

 

You shouldn't forget that EVE tried Dust 514, which failed miserably. Did it fail because it was horrible (which it was) or because it just wasn't something that EVE fans wanted? Well, they're giving it another shot, so they must feel like this is something desired, but we really can't say for sure. 

 

As far as games following SC, let me say this, I'm excited for a new Chris Roberts game. That being said, even at the pinnacle of space flight sims, I was playing Privateer and X-Wing vs Tie Fighter. There are definitely voids that can be filled beyond SC. I think that the worst thing that could happen, though, is SC is regarded as WoW and everyone tries to start creating SC clones. As many have found trying to mimic WoW, it's more than the sum of parts that make a game great. 

Originally posted by Iselin

And all of this for less than $2 Mill? I have always gotten the impression that the game could have been made easily with or without the KS and that the KS in this case is being used simply as a pre-order tool in a fashion that is somehow more acceptable to gamers than just laying out a series of tiered special editions as pre-purchase options in their website without calling it a KS campaign.

Would you rather something somewhat hashed out? Or would you prefer something that's simply in the conceptual stages? I personally want to see something. I want someone who's already invested. True, they may have been able to make the game without the money, but it's also entirely possible that they have people working for free at the moment, too. Would be nice to pay salaries. At least they had something to show, not just a dev talking about how great it's going to be. 

Originally posted by Nevulus
do u know the difference between publishers & developers? Seems like u don't.

*ding ding ding*

 

As far as accountability goes. Who actually has some? I remember this time I bought Diego backpack for one of my kids (cuz that's what kids wanted at the time). When I opened it up there was a FREAKIN' KNIFE IN IT!!!! Not like a plastic one, like a F$#@ING SHARP and REAL packing knife.

 

I immediately called the company and they took down my information and acted mildly concerned before telling me they would definitely look into it. 

 

Unfortunately if a lack of accountability is a big deal for you, then life is going to be a real let done. That being said, if you're someone who actually IS accountable for your actions, good on you! That's a great trait to have and more uncommon that you'd believe.

29. If you have a really, REALLY cool weapon, don't throw it. It'll be gone for real! 
What makes you think that they don't have any money to start with? Do you believe that the gameplay footage seen during the KS campaign simply materialized out of thin air? This is how a KS should be run. Another title that comes to mind is Shards Online. Lots of tech already done. Gameplay footage throughout their campaign. Playtests being streamed. It's all about committing to your product, and if someone is showing that they're already heavily invested in the project, then it does nothing but make me want to back it that much more. 
Originally posted by Rusque
I disagree, so I guess we'll just have to fite IRL, 12 noon at the O.K. Corral.

I'd prefer Denny's. They we could pick up some pancakes after. 

Originally posted by Kazuhiro

Being able to purchase ANYTHING with real money that gives an advantage in the game is Pay2win in my definition. Even if it can be obtained in the game, your still able to purchase something that lets you "win" even if you can also win in other ways.

Sparkle ponies /= P2W

Costumes (Without stats) /= P2W

Pretty much anything cosmetic (dyes/skins/appearances/emotes/etc) /=P2W

Gear with stats on it = P2W

Potions that make you stronger (even briefly) = P2W

Any item that lets you skip grindy content (Though I personally am not bothered by xp boosters.) = P2W

 

So which game do you think isn't P2W then? I'm having a hard time thinking of one that doesn't fit your classification.

Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Gruug

This is becoming the "new" form of the free to play scam. Now, if you don't pay a certain amount up front you won't get something you want. Really, are we game players (consumers) this gullible that we fall for so-called "f2p" payment models and now this "tiered crowdfunding" as well?

I once thought kickstarter would be a good thing. Not anymore. Now, you put up your money under promises of getting something that glitters. If the game is going to be good, don't dangle some trinket in front of me....give me a great game instead.

 

First of all, tiered crowdfunding has always existed. It's been that way since they began. Secondly, what's the difference between buying a standard version versus a collector's edition? Would it make you feel better if they simply called it that? Unfortunately, the article focuses on some very petty stuff, in my opinion. Crowfall's campaign is actually one of the least aggressive, as far as added value for higher tiers. 

The difference is this. A standard and collector's edition are known entities, you are purchasing something where you know what you will get in return. Now imagine if the game sold well and made $10 million and the developers announced that everyone who had purchased a collector's edition would get some more bonus items while those who bought standard editions do not. That is the problem.

Both pools of revenue are contributing to the overall success, but one is being rewarded retroactively by an undetermined future event. In order to reach that stretch goal on kickstarter a certain milestone must be met, did those at lower price points not contribute to reaching that milestone? Why not? As far as I can tell, it takes all the money together to achieve it, not just those who contributed a certain amount.

If it wasn't retroactively applied, then it wouldn't be an issue. If they simply added a new tier and said, "this tier unlocks once stretch goal X is reached and you may then purchase this tier to get XYZ rewards." But to give some people rewards while not giving them to others after the fact is kinda messed up. Both/All groups helped you get to the stretch goal, you wouldn't have gotten there at all without them.

But it's not, really, retroactive. Retroactive would be like if they were to add something and only make it available to higher tiers AFTER the game was released. So, if we want to get that granular, you could say that it's like a Pre-Order of a standard or collector's edition. So, last minute, I add something like a mount to the collector's edition. I'm sure there's probably a real-world case of it happening, too. As a standard user, I still have that option to order the collector's edition, do I not? If a mount is that important to someone, they could just as easily have upgraded their pledge to the $100 pledge level. It's not like they are locked it. You also have the option to cancel your backing of it, which the author did. Remember that these rewards aren't rewarded at time X, it's something that will be rewarded following the funding campaign. So I believe you're incorrect in your assertion that someone doesn't have the option to upgrade their tier. 

 

Also, I'm fairly certain that the mounts will be available to everyone in the game, correct? Sorry, I'm not a backer, so I'm probably not as up-to-date as some. Sooooooo, what's the whining about? Because you need to work for it in the game? Sorry, just seems like a spoiled child taking their ball and going home. 


Originally posted by snoocky

Goodbye MMO's....Here is the real deal!!




Ahhhh the nostalgia.....



Not goodbye, this should be like a huge, blinking arrow to all the MMOs. HELLO STORY!!!!! I mean, damn! I think maybe I had become a bit numb to it, but story really is what's missing in MMOs. Think about all the clicking through quest text, bypassing cut-scenes, etc. Actually, it's like a kickable offence to watch a cut-scene during a dungeon or raid. 


 


Gawd, I really hope that it's not the last time we'll see a strong story in a game. Torment is coming this year too!!! :)


Originally posted by Ludwik
Some of you are trying to add the 'within a reasonable amount of time' tag and that's wrong.

What's reasonable to you may not be reasonable to me. Who's to set that point and even then it's still arbitrary.

It has to be all or nothing otherwise it's not truly defined. Either accept DMKano's definition that everything obtainable in game is fair game or accept the definition that anything placed in the cash shop that affects gameplay is p2w.

I lean towards the latter but accept and understand that most players lean towards the former.

I can appreciate your problem with "within a reasonable amount of time". It is kind of a subjective measure. 

 

I would agree more with DMKano, though. The problem with a definition that bins everything selling any sort of advantage through a cash shop, is that it would, effectively, make very game P2W. Even with ESO, even if you're selling a cash shop potion that is no better than what can be made, I could drop $10 real money into the shop and get a bunch of potions that might take you 10 days to farm. So that's an advantage, at the very simplest form.

 

The PROBLEM with this definition is that the granularity actually trivializes the term Pay to Win. So, now, it doesn't matter if I sell a potion that is no better than anything craftable in game, or if I sell the Sword of Instadeath, every game is P2W. I often see these P2W crusaders out there trying to reign in the developers. Fact is, they've got to make money and they will make money, but the crusading against the masses will simply lead to much, MUCH heavier P2W in the end. 

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