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All Posts by CrazKanuk

All Posts by CrazKanuk

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2136 posts found
I don't think so. Why dilute it. Think about RPGs. We had isometric RPGs, turn-based, real-time, yada, yada. I don't think that the core game itself differs, you're talking about the combat mechanics, I think, not necessarily the type of game. 
Originally posted by collekt
Originally posted by Hedeon

the payment model doesnt matter, the communities are the same.  You find as many "toxic" people in P2P as in F2P, and yes have played all of them.

60$  + 15$/month wont keep out people you do not like - unless you dislike asians I guess, which is always annoying if there is too many of those, since they blah blah in their own native languages.

It's not a question of keeping out every single person of that type, it's the fact that a game you can jump into for zero charge is inherently going to attract MORE of those people. Not necessarily referring to "toxic" individuals, as gaming communities usually have a degree of toxicity by nature. It does attract plenty of hackers, cheaters, spammers, etc. though since they don't lose anything at all if they get banned.

It also promotes the way the game is going to be maintained. A sub model entices the company to churn out good content that the players want and enjoy. A f2p model entices them to come up with something new to sell in the cash shop, since most of their players will be gone and replaced with new ones regularly anyway.. why focus on real content?

Lol, well as far as sweeping generalizations go, that pretty much takes the cake. First of all, Honorbuddy people just got bans from WoW and there were something like 200K HonorBuddy Subscribers which accounts for about 3% of the entire WoW population, which is pretty damn substantial. And that's just one "type" of person. There were actually 3 people in my 20-person guild (back in the day) who got banned for cheating. It's not as uncommon in P2P as you'd like to believe. It's just hidden better. Why? Well, because if you get caught, it's a bigger deal. I really don't think that there is a great difference between the two models. Spammers, maybe. 

 

As for your other assertion about content updates. I think that just about every P2P MMO works on 6-month update cycles, and then WoW will pump out a new, paid, expansion every couple years too. In actuality, F2P tends to be more front-end heavy with content updates. Maybe because games aren't entirely finished? Maybe because getting people onboard early is best for business? Then the regular releases seem to taper off. That's just my experience, though. 

Originally posted by Vee4240
Originally posted by greenreen

hehe

I always talk about how bad free to play is for community. Sometimes I think I may be repeating myself now but at least I have a big cabinet of reasons it wrecks community. Even if some of it is about the exploitation of ill people like those with gambling tendencies or those whose brains haven't fully developed simply because of age.

I don't think people like hearing about realities like that because there is usually someone who gets testy when I mention those things.

It's like they want to imagine that all the people who overpay so that they can play for free are all trust fund babies, rich by birth. Then there isn't an impact if you hurt the greedy one percent who didn't earn anything but were given things - what a load of malarky.

They don't seem to want to face the fact that people can be exploited psychologically or the blatant way it's done and that can even hit our less cognizant citizens. They don't like the reality of others being hurt in some way or it affecting them negatively because that triggers their guilt about riding for free.

Instead they focus on how liberating free games are and how they can play so many without that nag about HOW that can happen.

I mean, I don't kick puppies but I don't watch people kick puppies either or excuse someone for doing it because they offered me a piece of candy to be quiet about it. 

If you consider free to play something unworthy of payment (and many do who play it cautiously for their spending averaging less than 5 dollars a month), why do you watch it happen to others and avert your eyes.

That's the darkest community problem to me. The one people don't like to face. Someone is being exploited for them to exist and they don't have any sense of empathy for that person's affliction.

Such is human life tho. It's not ok for racists to hate based on race but it's ok to hate racists based on their beliefs, humans - amirite. We can justify any old thing we like to make ourselves sleep better.

Sometimes I get tired of repeating how horrible free to play games are so I shut up about it, don't worry, I'm still thinking it.

*claps*

Lol, I'll second the sarcastic clap. 

 

First, you act as though MMORPGs haven't been psychologically mind-effing people for over a decade, which I find funny. People literally kill themselves over MMORPGs. Yet you're still, I'm assuming, supporting P2P MMORPGs. It's nothing like racists at all. If anything, it's like all MMORPGs are racist, but P2P is somehow better because they say "they have a black friend, so it's ok." 

 

How about casinos? I'm assuming you are standing out front of a casino right now with a picket sign? Protesting how people spend their money? How about cars? These days I see more and more people driving more and more expensive cars. The car probably costs as much as their house, but they'll pay for that damn car. How about hobbies? I've got friends who are in car racing, motocross, sky diving. That is EXPENSIVE!!! We should probably take a look into outlawing that, too. Actually, a buddy of mine owns his own motocross team and holy frak!! I'll just say, he doesn't make money with it. 

 

Exploitation? EXPLOITATION?!? Oh gawd, I hope you're not an American. America was founded on this sort of "Exploitation" as you put it. Maybe even worse. AND!!! On top of that, when the economy failed, the government bailed each and every one of those MFers out!!! (Looking at you Fanny Mae). 

 

Sorry, it's a bit of a stretch to say that F2P games are horrible when games like SWTOR, Rift, AC (and more) exist. Sure, there are some games that are crappy, meat grinders that are churned out what seems like every other week, but I don't really see that as being sustainable, either. Oh, and I spend more on WoW in a given year than I ever have on an F2P title, even though I play F2P titles extensively. Maybe I'm not the crowd you're talking about, but I also don't think that this "issue" is pandemic. Just as with everything else, there will be people who take it to the extreme. In those cases, they'll suffer, sure, but oh well. Maybe we should just ship those people off to an island somewhere. Maybe let rich people hunt them for sport. 

Originally posted by delete5230
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by delete5230

The community here ARE MOSTLY PLAYERS LOOKING FOR A FREE GAME TO PLAY.  After all, if you have no money and your a struggling collage student, or a teenager where dad will not fork over the credit card.....Well, they have no choice but to play games that are FREE.

When our forum polls indicate that most here are over 30, I have have to ask - what data are you basing that on? Have you really reached the point of just making stuff up to insult people who like something different than you? If so, that's pretty sad. :( 

 

FREE-TO-PLAY IS KILLING OFF MMO'S.....It's a fact get used to it !!!!

There is no data on anything....Get use to that too !!!!

You can't run a poll here, because most here are looking for a free game.....That's something you'll have to get used to also !!!

Wow, so many assertions, so few actualities. 

 

You should probably take a peek out the window and make sure the sky isn't falling. 

Originally posted by shalissar

Archetypal limitations in 2015? Oh it's certainly not OUR way! Okay, I get it, yeah yeah excuses excuses. I've heard this before from a game called wild star.

NEXT!

I'm the opposite. I think it breaks immersion if it's a classless system. I mean let's say I go my entire life being raised to be a warrior. Then my adventure begins!!!! Then halfway through I say, "nah! I wanna be an archer!" or "I think I want to be a druid! Whoa! Just like that, I can shape-shift!"  It's just not that simple.

 

Another thing that irks me is we just get these flavour-of-the-week builds that everyone migrates around to. Classless systems simply don't take the time to balance. Why? Well, if something's unbalanced then people will simply switch classes. 

 

It's a horribly broken system and I think it's not really how classless systems were intended to be played, either. 

Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Adjuvant1
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by sludgebeard

Why does no one talk about how F2P negatively affects Game Communities?

 

I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.

The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.

F2P is terrible for communities.

 

F2P games are not something we should be celebrating

 

Indeed.

What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality. 

 

Are the parent's never to blame then?

EvE is a unique animal culturally because of various reasons. I never use exceptions to examine rules.

 

F2P isn't the only factor in creating toxic communities, I should have said that, I usually do, but is is an important one. A huge one.

Simply put, it helps to destroy peer policing.

 

I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers. 

 

You say that we can't measure it in any way in an effort to discredit my point, then you end on telling me that we'd probably find very similar numbers, even though you clearly admit that you have no basis to say that, to support yours.

Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:

Marker WoW EVE STO LOTRO TERA LOL
threads 7420000 4550000 1710000 436000 450000 11000000
idiot 19000 23300 7470 1620 7610 69500
retard 3940 4260 1 1 2300 7170
dumbass 3390 1000 2320 133 815 10700
Total 26330 28560 9791 1754 10725 87370
Ratio 281.8078 159.3137 174.6502 248.5747 41.95804 125.9013
 
This data was generated using Google site search, and the indexes represents the raw (no term) pages indexed. WoW is, also, only the US wow forums. The Ratio is the number of posts per "toxic marker". So WoW really isn't too shabby. TERA is, by far, the worst, but could be anomalous. Some of the longer-standing games are more tame. I added in LOL as a baseline community that most people would agree is toxic. 
 
Anyway, as you can see, the type of game has little bearing, it would seem. Obviously the data isn't conclusive, but anyone wanting to continue and expand is more than welcome to. 

I like your style.

edit: Your graph is missing "fanboi", though.

I'll get right on the graph. First, though, I've got to figure out how I can move this into a python script so I can scale this. Then we'll worry about graphs. Maybe even plot the decline of human decency. 

The chart is a cute idea and I think MOBAs bring nastier words just because their gameplay is combative, of course their speech will be - that's their sense of community is competition. The person who responded to my request for community building qualities only listed those "features" from free to play games for building communities, hosting tournaments and being competitive. So yeah, we know that some of the MOBA people aren't really MMO people, they are FPS people who have lost their way. They think MMO means online and that PVP MMO is the same as MOBA. Community to them is aggression and competition and a cash shop in a free game ties right into buying power or beauty. It's a keen fit. 

I too look at forums to watch player sentiment or general intelligence around the groups. Many free to play forums have a derrrr factor - like Archeage. When I go there I expect to not encounter words over high school English. When I go to ESO forums even though they went buy to play, the posters do have college oriented discussion often. Long drawn out thoughts which take time to read and more "big words".

The problem though in this test is that they aren't all moderated by the same staff. And some have unmanageable amounts of participants so I would expect firstly that the higher the population - the more prevalence of snide that goes through unnoticed by a mod making it into search results.

The second issue is of course that intelligent people can be insulting and childish in much more proper or dignified ways. If I call someone dull instead of an idiot - that can slide by because I wasn't ghetto about it or used a clinical term. My brother and I used to play a game called make me cry. You could only insult each other without using curse words. It became pretty creative because your goal was to tear the person down without using such mundane easy words as stupid. You had to get to the heart of their inadequacies and really tear into them personally. That's why people can overlook generic insults like *itch or *unt, that's not personal enough to hurt someone. You want to hurt someone you tap into what they think they are doing right and show them it's wrong and an illusion in their head when they call it right. I blame that game on watching too much Comedy Central lol

Popular too can mean popular for different reasons. WOW is like a rite of passage. Everyone plays it or has played it. If you call yourself a gamer at some point someone will suggest that you should have played WOW. Minecraft I think is reaching that status too though I haven't played it. That's why MS bought it, they saw that mass appeal.

I like to search games on pay to win too. That I think has given me insight on sentiment. I believe that people have to want to stop liking free to play games for them to go away and that means they need to see why they are detrimental.

 

Still though. I've yet to see people point out ways that free to play games build community. The only person who attempted to address that suggested that they create competitive communities, exactly what I say is detrimental. If I look at everyone as my enemy in the real world I'd be called paranoid. If I do it in my MMO all of a sudden it's a community?

Also too, all those MOBA / FPS lovers who try to convert MMO games to be more competitive with cash shops negate all the things lots of us liked about playing the games. Things like entering a secret world and exploring it. Maybe catching someone role playing in a corner - that's the real player generated content. It's like you encountered Frodo right there and that mofo is going on a mission right about now. They are planning it out. Sure, no one will make a blockbuster movie about it but there it is happening in front of you, live on the screen. That sort of community versus this tourney stuff is miles from each other.

Who forgot that these games have RPG in them. If I people watch someone on the street living their life I'm nosy. If I do it in a game, I may just get an invite sent to me. That's the best way to join a guild I think is to have adventured together and found the company enjoyable. If I'm not hustling in a competitive game, I'm not winning.

Smelling the roses and logging in to do nothing but chat - yeah that's something for the sub games because the people already paid to be there, not for the free games where you play so many that you have to decide what to play based on competitive goal setting. Smelling the roses isn't going to happen because you have too many to play and get to. That games list up there is showing over 800 games right now. Imagine if you tried to play them all. Free to play says - sure play them all. I say still that you are spreading yourself thin. Your personality, your ability to contribute and all the things you used to give to one game now go to more. It's like polyamory - how can you equally love 10 people romantically because if you have 10 pieces of your heart in 10 places, everyone only gets 1/10th of you.

I have never understood those people who say - when I paid a sub for a game, I felt like I had to login to get my monies worth. Wait... you didn't WANT to login? Why are you playing an MMO again?

We know ways sub games built community. It's what made free to play games become rampant. They stood on the shoulders of giants - those sub games. They even took from sub games and said - you want to grind - fine, you play for free - you want to buy and bypass grind - fine, you pay. Free games stepped in and found community from those playing sub games. What I want to see is how they nurture that because sub games did. If they don't nurture it and instead their goals are to pit everyone against each other in price based competition buying these games in pieces then it's not wise to keep acting like they have no impact.


If you destroy a building one brick at a time instead of hitting it with a wrecking ball, you still tore that thing down. I keep seeing free to play / aka cash shops tearing this whole thing down. And people are just saying back, well it's just a brick, not a whole building getting destroyed. It's the concept that if you aren't building you are either stagnant or destroying a scene. The same way we think of ourselves and building ourselves personally like constantly learning or saying I know enough I'll just stop thinking now. If you neglect shearing a yard and maintaining grass, doesn't it turn back into a forest.

What is free to play "building" I'll throw out for the upteenth time. What does it bring positive to any community because what I note repeatedly is competition based on social classes or addictive personalities. How can we continue to be party to what exists in the real world and call it "something to explore" or "something different" than real life. If I want to compete with people over what I buy, I don't have to enter a game to do it. I can live real life for that. What about all those moral things related to MMO questing and the lessons like the end of a cartoon. How does all that stuff dissolve away when the cash shop comes a calling. I never knew a hero to be the person who bought their fame. Yet, it's for sale these days.

You wanted to know a game without a cash shop - Ryzom is one. Go look at their forum and see how community based they are in comparison to others. There is a striking difference in niche games and their communities compared to popular games. I think we all know that trolls need attention so yeah, mo' people - mo' problems. http://app.ryzom.com/app_forum/index.php?page=forum&show_shard=103&language=en

 

Nice post! It actually reads well. 

 

I don't think that F2P necessarily does anything to "build community". However, I don't think that P2P games do anything, either. Actually, I'm not certain that it's the fault of the games or the communities themselves, either. I think it probably has more to do with time. I'd go as far as to say that people aren't interested in communities. Remember, back in the early 2000s there weren't things like social media. At least not the way people do it today. I feel like MMORPGs filled some sort of gap, a social void. Now, well, we just don't need that. So, stripped down, MMORPGs are really just time wasters wrapped in a social networking blanket. Always have been. That's not to say they aren't compelling. Some lore is also better than others. However, there isn't that same expressed interest in the social aspects. Us "old timers" might find it fun to play with others, but I feel like the 30+ crowd is the last bastion of the social MMORPG crowd. Basically, everything is horrible now, not excluding P2P. If I went one evening in WoW without seeing "anal [something]" in general chat, it would be rare. 

 

That being said, it's the same reason I feel like games like P99 are going to be really good social experiences. Nobody wants to play a game that old, except people who played it back in the day. 

 

As far as cash shops go. I think it's a necessary evil for games these days. Take a look at the latest P2P releases. Even blockbuster games (like SWTOR or ESO) would have been dead within a year or a little over that. Personally, as long as the don't throw best in slot gear behind a payment barrier, I think it's fine. They need to make money. People complain about these things being available in cash shops, but fact is it's always been available.I remember when you could buy in-game items on eBay!!! Powerleveling, gold, items, entire accounts!!! All available online and are just a search away. So why the big fuss? What? Now that money can go towards the ACTUAL game? I'm cool with it. 

 

edit: oh yeah, and Ryzom is actually interesting. I looked at it a while ago because I heard it was open source development. Interesting idea. With that and P99, we might actually begin to see these types of things open up! Never know!

Originally posted by Adjuvant1
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by sludgebeard

Why does no one talk about how F2P negatively affects Game Communities?

 

I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.

The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.

F2P is terrible for communities.

 

F2P games are not something we should be celebrating

 

Indeed.

What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality. 

 

Are the parent's never to blame then?

EvE is a unique animal culturally because of various reasons. I never use exceptions to examine rules.

 

F2P isn't the only factor in creating toxic communities, I should have said that, I usually do, but is is an important one. A huge one.

Simply put, it helps to destroy peer policing.

 

I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers. 

 

You say that we can't measure it in any way in an effort to discredit my point, then you end on telling me that we'd probably find very similar numbers, even though you clearly admit that you have no basis to say that, to support yours.

Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:

Marker WoW EVE STO LOTRO TERA LOL
threads 7420000 4550000 1710000 436000 450000 11000000
idiot 19000 23300 7470 1620 7610 69500
retard 3940 4260 1 1 2300 7170
dumbass 3390 1000 2320 133 815 10700
Total 26330 28560 9791 1754 10725 87370
Ratio 281.8078 159.3137 174.6502 248.5747 41.95804 125.9013
 
This data was generated using Google site search, and the indexes represents the raw (no term) pages indexed. WoW is, also, only the US wow forums. The Ratio is the number of posts per "toxic marker". So WoW really isn't too shabby. TERA is, by far, the worst, but could be anomalous. Some of the longer-standing games are more tame. I added in LOL as a baseline community that most people would agree is toxic. 
 
Anyway, as you can see, the type of game has little bearing, it would seem. Obviously the data isn't conclusive, but anyone wanting to continue and expand is more than welcome to. 

I like your style.

edit: Your graph is missing "fanboi", though.

I'll get right on the graph. First, though, I've got to figure out how I can move this into a python script so I can scale this. Then we'll worry about graphs. Maybe even plot the decline of human decency. 

Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by sludgebeard

Why does no one talk about how F2P negatively affects Game Communities?

 

I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.

The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.

F2P is terrible for communities.

 

F2P games are not something we should be celebrating

 

Indeed.

What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality. 

 

Are the parent's never to blame then?

EvE is a unique animal culturally because of various reasons. I never use exceptions to examine rules.

 

F2P isn't the only factor in creating toxic communities, I should have said that, I usually do, but is is an important one. A huge one.

Simply put, it helps to destroy peer policing.

 

I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers. 

 

You say that we can't measure it in any way in an effort to discredit my point, then you end on telling me that we'd probably find very similar numbers, even though you clearly admit that you have no basis to say that, to support yours.

Well, based on that, and the fact that I knew you'd probably say something like that, I did some searches of some popular P2P and F2P MMO forums. Here's what I found:

Marker WoW EVE STO LOTRO TERA LOL
threads 7420000 4550000 1710000 436000 450000 11000000
idiot 19000 23300 7470 1620 7610 69500
retard 3940 4260 1 1 2300 7170
dumbass 3390 1000 2320 133 815 10700
Total 26330 28560 9791 1754 10725 87370
Ratio 281.8078 159.3137 174.6502 248.5747 41.95804 125.9013
 
This data was generated using Google site search, and the indexes represents the raw (no term) pages indexed. WoW is, also, only the US wow forums. The Ratio is the number of posts per "toxic marker". So WoW really isn't too shabby. TERA is, by far, the worst, but could be anomalous. Some of the longer-standing games are more tame. I added in LOL as a baseline community that most people would agree is toxic. 
 
Anyway, as you can see, the type of game has little bearing, it would seem. Obviously the data isn't conclusive, but anyone wanting to continue and expand is more than welcome to. 
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by sludgebeard

Why does no one talk about how F2P negatively affects Game Communities?

 

I have been talking about the wasteland effect that F2P has on communities for years.

The model creates a transient non invested player base with a tourist mentality, and this of course creates toxic no consequence behaviours.

F2P is terrible for communities.

 

F2P games are not something we should be celebrating

 

Indeed.

What is EVE's excuse then? Sorry, but you're basically using the whole "blame the parent" mentality. Sure, there are cases where F2P might create a disconnect, non-consequential environment where people feel less accountable for their actions because they can simply create a new account. However, the game type and attitude towards the game is not mutually-exclusive with the model. Remember that WoW just dropped the ban hammer on a metric ton  of users (this past week or so) accounting for probably more users than most sub games even have. The WoW community is, also, very toxic. If you played WoW at launch versus now, it's extremely different. I don't attribute that to F2P, either, since you could see it beginning to turn even before F2P was really popularized. If I was to attribute toxic communities to anything, it would be the Internet. You are right that it's an attitude that there are no consequences for their actions, but that's bred on forums, like this, and other social sites where people aren't being held accountable for their words. Blaming it on F2P is a cop-out.

 

I'm not even sure you could measure this in any sort of objective way. First of all, there are so few P2P games that the sampling isn't even valid. If you did find a way to actually measure that, though, it might be interesting and you'd probably find very similar numbers. 

Originally posted by sludgebeard

Seriously, take STO for example. Even though STO never had strong reviews, and even had kind of a weak start as an MMO, there was still a very budding community for it, in a very niche way.

 

Then upon the F2P transition, and the Tier 6 Ships being locked behind a pay-wall, the community has all but abandoned the game citing it as a quick cash grab.

I remember seeing the steam reviews for it back in the day saying "Mostly Positive", and now its a darker shade of red and the word "Mixed" in its place. 

 

The community is torn on the game, mainly for a love of the trek franchise, but the F2P transition made the game into a much less competitve game unless you wanna spend money on the PVP ships.

 

Lets think about Arche Age now, a game which I played for a good time in beta in loved, and payed money for and it didnt matter, it was worth it. 

 

Now out of beta the game is just even more pay for this-pay for that, the community hates the way they monetized the game, many people would even perfer just a buy-to-play method, just so they didnt have to worry about their competitive PvP game being ruined by people with more money. 

 

 

These are huge issues, because look, maybe im naive, but to me, the idea of squeezing out a few extra thousand a year by seperating content into micro-transaction's, it just isnt worth a game community, a beloved IP, or even the right to call itself an MMO.

 

F2P games are not something we should be celebrating, if anything we should be looking into the value these companys make by detaching content and selling it for smaller intervals and quick-money transactions. 

 

MMO fans need to take a good look in the mirror and ask if they really want this invading their games for the rest of this generation. 

Lol, ok, so first of all, you realize that STO died right? Like a year and a half into the game? It was dead, like stick a fork in it dead. Now, because of F2P it has lasted 3 additional years, and still going. Also, I believe you're still welcome to subscribe, aren't you? Sorry, I'm not entirely familiar with the model they adopted, but believe it was a 3-tier model. Not certain whether this still tucks those T6 ships you talk about behind a pay wall or not. That being said, I would say that the lifetime sub offered was as big a problem as anything else. Since F2P extended the life of the game, the lifers are actually a severe drag on the system. Initial cash infusion for a lifetime of pain. Now lifers think it's great, though. They definitely got their monies worth on STO. 

 

Also, if you think that microtransaction revenues are giving them a couple extra thousand a year, you're kidding yourself. Again, due to lifers, microtransaction revenues are supporting this game. 

 

As far as B2P goes, what's the difference? B2P=B2P with heavy cash shop monetization. Why? Simple, MMOs are designed to be persistent, never-ending games. So why the hell do we think that buying a retail box for $60 is going to somehow pay for an eternity of updates? Would you pay for quarterly updates for a game? No, probably not. If AA made you pay $30 per quarter for "Expansions" you'd have the same gripe, and probably also complain about the lack of content for $30. 

 

Sorry to say, but F2P provides much greater value than a subscription game. Period. There is nary a single game I have seen where a free player could not be competitive with someone else in the game. That is, there hasn't been a single game, to my knowledge, where you can buy something in the cash shop that cannot be obtained, free, within the game. You're saying STO is, but I'm certain that's not the case. 

 

Oh, and BTW, there also isn't a single P2P MMO that I'm aware of which doesn't have a cash shop, either, not that many of them exist any more anyway. 

Originally posted by Veexer_Nui
Well deserved. Too bad they use scaleform ui that kills fps in 20v20 bgs.

Yeah, but scaling your UI is sooooooo nice and it's done so little. 

Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Sukiyaki
Originally posted by doodphace

They didn't give a specific number, but they sure did state that "subscriptions have increased".

What was the figure before the "stabilized at just under half a million"?

 

Unless someone finally manages to find that figure or proof if was anything less than "just under half a million", your quote of David Tach author of Polygon who claimed that Gibeau said it

The real question is whether subs even matter. When you're doing over $100 million per year in revenues, do subscriptions even matter? Who cares if it's 3 subs or 300,000 subs.

 Oh! And BTW, I can verify unequivocally that the Polygon writer was correct 100% and that Gibeau did in fact say that SWTOR subs had stabilized just under half a million. I'd love to give you the link, but I'm afraid I've done enough of your homework already. 

You may spent less focus writing all this nonsense and more focus on reading.

No one denied the "stabilized just under Million" statement was made in this entire mess of excuses and denial to defend delusions about SWToR. Your/others conclusions from that statement and some other stament was in discussion. The Polygon writer made and quoted half a dozen statments. All correct except for one claiming Gibeau said subscriptions have increased since it went F2P in the 7 May call. That was not a quote and in fact no such thing was even implied during the call.

Your input is not needed. EA's transcripts and recodings and Tachs article are sufficient and the "discussion" over, since once again no one was able to point out this popular but false claim in the records. Usally people would assume an error, poor choice of words for his personal interpretation or a slip of thought, talking about an earlier similar phrased statement from Gibeau claiming an increase of subscriber, however refering to sub conversion from non-subs, given Tach received no special treatment.

But if you want to grasp for straws you can complain to Reuters and EA why they left such critical metrics from the transcripts and its revision and muted the mic for a few seconds or sue Gibeau for exposing company secrets to random game reporter in the mens bathroom. I can care less about diving into conspiracies or anyones irrelevant personal anecdotes or endless pondering on indices feigning ignorance of the facts at hand.

I think that the focus here is specifically on numbers and the fact that nobody has any sort of suitable numbers. I quoted a company that said SWTOR made $165 million in 2013 which was laughed off stage. However, data supporting the popular theory that SWTOR is dying is bumped because it came from a "reputable" analyst who works for some company who doesn't even specialize on metrics for one specific industry, let alone games. So how is that analyst reputable? I want an effin' resume! Why? Because he writes articles he's all of a sudden reputable? 

 

Anyway, SWTOR is still living, so whatever, it doesn't even matter. Think what you like to think and we'll see how long it takes to shut down. If you feel like you're somehow an expert, though, feel free to toss out a date as to when you think SWTOR will die. If you're +/- 3 months then I'll send you a big shiny nickel. 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

with so many f2p games out there .. they are competing for whales by being fun. It is erroneous to assume just because something is free, it is no good. That is true if there is no competition.

But now f2p games are competing for my time.

In fact, why would i waste my time on something if it is not fun? So by definition, any f2p game that I play must be fun ... for me. And that extents to everyone.

 

Agree 100% 

 

BTW, air is free, and it's pretty great. 

Originally posted by Skuall

ps4 is smooth , xbox isnt

ps4 is running at higer res right? 1080 , XO at 900 if im not wrong.

 

still..

 

:P

I bet Glorious PC Masterrace cannot tell the difference...... It could be like the genetic cleansing of the Glorious PC Masterrace. We'll create a sampling of videos from each of the consoles, and also PC (both 1080p and 4k). If you guess wrong on which is PC then a man comes to your house and takes your computer because you disgrace the masterrace.

Originally posted by kenpokiller
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Dizazterz

There seems to be a pretty big misconception in this thread that backers are somehow 'duped' into "paying to do their job" for them.

 

As someone who has backed CF, as well as other games, it has nothing at all to do with being fooled by some shinies leading to my paying to do their job.  It's really quite simple.  I want the game to be made.  Thus, I pledge some money to help make that a reality.

In many cases, it's a simple as effectively buying the game before it comes out (i.e. the lower tiers of backing).   Sure, if the game fails to ever be released, I'm out the $40 or whatever it was.  So long as the game is released, I'm getting my monies worth of value.  The producing company simply got the money for the sale ahead of time and was able to use it during development.

As you get higher in the tiers, the value becomes significantly more subjective.

While you get the game, and usually X months of free game time (or free 'premium subscription' time) which has a direct monetary value associated with it (i.e. cost per month), you also start getting into things that are more subjective, i.e. badges, titles, in-game rewards, stickers, statues figurines, etc.  To some people, those things are worth the money.  To others, they are not.

Then you get into the REAL intangibles, i.e. Alpha and Beta access.  Yes, theoretically you are paying to do someone's job for them.  Except, many people consider Alpha/Beta access a privilege and enjoy it immensely.  Some consider it an opportunity to help shape the game.  Some simply consider it a tactical advantage to have early access, giving them a head start on the competition by gaining experience with the game prior to it's release.  Some probably have other reasons I am not considering at present for why they want the access bad enough to pay for it.

Some people also just have more cash to throw around and things they want. 

 

I backed CU at an Alpha Level because I believed the game was worth backing, and I wanted to get my hands on it at an early level and watch the growth of the game through the process. 

CF requires a $500 pledge for Alpha Access which is simply outside of my price range of what I consider worth it.  Apparently a number of people have a higher value associated with it than I do.  That's fine.  It's their money.

 

Simply put, I highly doubt many, if any AT ALL of the $500 backers were "fooled" or scammed into anything.  They simply placed a value on a package that was higher than what you feel it was worth.  That's why they backed it, and you didn't. 

 

 

Oh, and to one of the original points of the thread, backer dollars used for advertising... Crowfall secured private investments and began development a year before opening the Kickstarter.  They already had money on the books to advertise.

I agree whole-heartedly EXCEPT for the part about alpha and beta testers doing someone's job for them. No.... just no. Alphas and Betas are basically the equivalent of distributed computing. There REALLY is very little meaningful "work" that goes on by these so-called alpha and beta "testers". The fact of the matters is that, the majority of the time, the alpha and beta crowd end up CREATING more work for the actual testers, because incoming bugs need to be manually verified internally. Many of these issues are difficult, or impossible, to reproduce and, since the average alpha/beta tester is your average user these days, you'll be lucky to be able to get them to copy/paste something for you, let alone get them to run any sort of diagnostics, tell you what they've got under the hood, etc. 

 

The rest of the post is great, just thought I'd chime in about that bit. Sorry, but the alpha/beta crowd is about as useful these days as sitting a monkey infront of a computer and having him bash on the keyboard. 

 

Not a single alpha/beta i've been in has given directions to:

 

Which bugs are known

What to look out for

Which part of game programmer is focussing on

What is tried and tested

 

No, everything has to be discovered yourself and when you do give legitimate feedback they don't respond to forumposts months on end. A simple "noted" or a button they can click which informs me that they've read it would be sufficient.

 

There you are, giving feedback, endlessly. Do you think that's rewarding?

When they ignore the bug and just release game?

 

I guess doing whatever action it is i'm testing over and over doesn't constitute work for you and that's fine but as aspiring programmer I feel differently. I want to LEARN

but I get it, it's their child, god forbid we may have an inside look.

 

Notable game developers who aren't like this:

Fortnite, friendliest people i've met in awhile.

 

Bingo!!! Honestly, the way you know when you're in a "real" alpha or beta is when:

1) You haven't paid to get into it

2) Devs are responsive and actually communicate with their community directly

3) They request more information!!! 

 

Many times, now, they don't have a standard form or best practices. Also, since you're paying, they don't generally kick people out of betas. Used to be that if you weren't contributing, you'd be replaced. THAT is when people were doing a "job" for a company. It was also more exclusive, though. 

 

Honestly, though, if you want to be a programmer, then take notes on things that piss you off in these current betas and re-fix them. It really doesn't need to be this way. At some point you'll get sick of hearing the same bug over and over, though :) 

Originally posted by Mavolence
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Mavolence
Originally posted by Stuka1000

Another gripe which many have pointed out is with the graphics that have been degraded so that the consoles can handle them.  Would it have been really so difficult to have the game auto-detect if it was being played on a console and then adjust the graphics for the platform?  That way the PC's superior capabilities could have been utilised.

 

Why!? Why do they do this? It kills me inside. Is there a fix out for this to make the graphics better on PC?

 

Here you go:

 

http://cdn.overclock.net/f/fe/fe851a3c_lie1.png

Man, thats just disgusting. I would be willing to pay more for a PC version of a game that released at the same time and had graphics to match the PC's strength. Makes me sad

The question is does it matter? I would bet that 99 our of 100 people would not be able to watch an HD gameplay clip and be able to tell what format it was on. Fact of the matter is that there is a whole lot of "disgust" for things that simply don't "matter" to the vast majority of PC gamers. 

 

To run the game on Ultra settings (1080p) you're looking at needing at LEAST a GTX 980 which will set you back $500-600. Even with that, the frame rate could be questionable until you start tuning it down. If you want 4k Ultra? Better pony up and drop $1200-1500 on a Titan X because anything short of that, I don't think, will cut it. 

 

Unfortunately, W3 is just as horribly optimized as W2. However, for anyone who wants to play W2 at ultra, you might be able to use your brand new computer to play it on Ultra :) 

I got it on PS4. Had some download issues myself. I couldn't get damn preload going, thought it was PSN traffic. NOPE! Checked release day and all I had to do is download Singstar first, I guess. Yup.....There must be a singstar dependency.....or Sony just really wants to hear my angelic voice. Thanks PS Forums though!!! 

 

Anyway, once I started the Singstar download it allowed me to download it. Like you, only a couple hours in, but it seems pretty solid. Definitely deserving of high marks. So happy with the control scheme. I hated the DA:I controls. I was hoping for something a little more along the lines of KoA, which I think we got. Everything is pretty fluid and prettier than what I'd get off my aging PCs. It's too early to say, but it definitely seems immersive. 

Originally posted by Dizazterz

There seems to be a pretty big misconception in this thread that backers are somehow 'duped' into "paying to do their job" for them.

 

As someone who has backed CF, as well as other games, it has nothing at all to do with being fooled by some shinies leading to my paying to do their job.  It's really quite simple.  I want the game to be made.  Thus, I pledge some money to help make that a reality.

In many cases, it's a simple as effectively buying the game before it comes out (i.e. the lower tiers of backing).   Sure, if the game fails to ever be released, I'm out the $40 or whatever it was.  So long as the game is released, I'm getting my monies worth of value.  The producing company simply got the money for the sale ahead of time and was able to use it during development.

As you get higher in the tiers, the value becomes significantly more subjective.

While you get the game, and usually X months of free game time (or free 'premium subscription' time) which has a direct monetary value associated with it (i.e. cost per month), you also start getting into things that are more subjective, i.e. badges, titles, in-game rewards, stickers, statues figurines, etc.  To some people, those things are worth the money.  To others, they are not.

Then you get into the REAL intangibles, i.e. Alpha and Beta access.  Yes, theoretically you are paying to do someone's job for them.  Except, many people consider Alpha/Beta access a privilege and enjoy it immensely.  Some consider it an opportunity to help shape the game.  Some simply consider it a tactical advantage to have early access, giving them a head start on the competition by gaining experience with the game prior to it's release.  Some probably have other reasons I am not considering at present for why they want the access bad enough to pay for it.

Some people also just have more cash to throw around and things they want. 

 

I backed CU at an Alpha Level because I believed the game was worth backing, and I wanted to get my hands on it at an early level and watch the growth of the game through the process. 

CF requires a $500 pledge for Alpha Access which is simply outside of my price range of what I consider worth it.  Apparently a number of people have a higher value associated with it than I do.  That's fine.  It's their money.

 

Simply put, I highly doubt many, if any AT ALL of the $500 backers were "fooled" or scammed into anything.  They simply placed a value on a package that was higher than what you feel it was worth.  That's why they backed it, and you didn't. 

 

 

Oh, and to one of the original points of the thread, backer dollars used for advertising... Crowfall secured private investments and began development a year before opening the Kickstarter.  They already had money on the books to advertise.

I agree whole-heartedly EXCEPT for the part about alpha and beta testers doing someone's job for them. No.... just no. Alphas and Betas are basically the equivalent of distributed computing. There REALLY is very little meaningful "work" that goes on by these so-called alpha and beta "testers". The fact of the matters is that, the majority of the time, the alpha and beta crowd end up CREATING more work for the actual testers, because incoming bugs need to be manually verified internally. Many of these issues are difficult, or impossible, to reproduce and, since the average alpha/beta tester is your average user these days, you'll be lucky to be able to get them to copy/paste something for you, let alone get them to run any sort of diagnostics, tell you what they've got under the hood, etc. 

 

The rest of the post is great, just thought I'd chime in about that bit. Sorry, but the alpha/beta crowd is about as useful these days as sitting a monkey infront of a computer and having him bash on the keyboard. 

Originally posted by Kyleran
The tourists are leaving the genre, soon we'll have it all to ourselves again.

The only problem with this is that when tourists leave, so does their money. As soon as these tourists "move on" do you really think that things are going to get better? The big complaints right now are about innovation, but will less money make that better? Meh..... The biggest innovations will be about how lean a dev team can be and still get work done. With reduced budgets, MMORPG development is going to be like pissing through a pinhole, super messy, mostly pointless, and it's just something you really just want to try. 

Originally posted by Malabooga
Originally posted by CrazKanuk
Originally posted by Malabooga

And you have absolutely no proof that its accuarte and its worth exactly same as any random internet number.

And they said it stabilized UNDER 500k. Which means 0-500k. See, ive done your homework for you.

Seems you need a history lesson:

1m was lowest acceptable number, anything below that was fail and anything below 500k was disaster. So when their projections showed they will plumment below 500k very quickly it resulted in massive layoffs, massive server mergers as means of reducing expenses and change of financial model that could actually support those reduced expenses.

There you go, you can thank me now.

And yeah, WS threads similar path, but has few disatvantages: its not SW and doesnt have huge company like EA that can just write off millions upon millions of $ of debt and hide it in random finacial categories.

NCSoft gave CoH a chance with F2P, seems that WS will get same chance, but just like CoH, if it doesnt take off seriously, well, ask CoH players.

Actually it says JUST under. The just is very important because it literally means barely, by a narrow margin. Simply by having that word in there means it's nearly 500k, not somewhere between zero and 500k. If it was a poor choice of words, then that's unfortunate to EA. However, if that it resulted in a downgrade of their forecasts as a result then there could be a class action lawsuit because of it. So, no, it's nowhere near zero. I would concede that it rests somewhere between 400-500k.

 

As far as history lessons go, check any MMORPG after release and you'll find layoffs and doomsdayers come out of the woodwork. Lesson 2, SWTOR actually exceeded expectations  after launch, had 1.7 million subscribers, and did over 2 million box sales (Some sources would say closer to 3 million). So, again, you're wrong. BACK TO CLASS!!!

Q1 2013 Electronic Arts Inc. Earnings Conference Call

John Riccitiello - Electronic Arts Inc.- CEO

"The disappointing results of Star Wars-The Old Republic"

Frank Gibeau-Electronic Arts Inc.-President, EA Labels

"First, the game many of you have been tracking closely, Star Wars-The Old Republic. Although it launched well, subscriptions have been on a declining trajectory and have now slipped below 1 million. Last year we announced that the breakeven point was roughly 500,000 subscribers. While we are well above that today, that is not good enough."

"Actually it says JUST under."

Since they reported that subs INCREASED TO just under 500k  it means BEFORE F2P it was LOWER, anywhere between 0- "just under 500k"

AND they reported subs decreased from those "just under 500k" every quarter afterwards.

Man, its like explaining to 5 years old.

1,7m subs ARENT subs, BW issueed a DISCLAIMER on that number just like article you linked had to:

"Update: Darth Hater has compiled some additional TOR-related statistics and Q&A from today's EA earnings call: "2,000,000+ copies sold, 40% sold through Origin; 1,700,000+ active subscribers, 1 million concurrent." The company also notes that "Active subscribers means anyone paying OR in their trial period. MOST of those 1.7m are paying at this point."

So yeah, they counted EVERYONE no matter subscribed or not. 1,7m is BOGUS number.

i know you want to revise history, and that you worked for EA, but no, it wont happen.

heres some inetrnetz numbers for ya, while were at it:

"Speaking to Market Watch, analyst Doug Creutz estimates that Electronic Arts likely invested around $500 million dollars on Star Wars: The Old Republic"

also from reputable analysts ;)

Oh yeah, check GW2 history, they INCREASED their team, check WS history, they had layoffs. Now compare results of GW2 and WS and, if youre really interested correlate one with SWTOR. Im pretty sure things cant be more clear.

And this was in feberuary:Q3 2012 FEBRUARY 01,2012

"Let me offer some metrics on purchase and subscription that will help you understand this business. As John stated, we have sold through 2 million units of the game since December. We currently have a little over 1.7 million active subscribers. The rest have eithe r not started playing yet or have opted out. This is an outstanding start for an MMO, and the metrics on engagement suggest players are loving the game. Unique logins are averaging about 1 million per day and their average playtime is approximately four hours per day."

 "Going forward, we have an ambitious plan to reach the broader market, the millions of Star Wars fans all over the world. You'll be seeing that very soon."

Just as a remainder of THEIR goals.

Ohhhhhh, ok, I see. Sorry, I forgot how the Internet works. Your source is valid and all other sources are invalid, even though this "reputable" source has no more information than anyone else and there is no information on how much data they are sampling from, etc., etc. THAT is what PROOF looks like. Cool man, thanks for clearing that up. 

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