Originally posted by Rinna

I don't want Wildstar to be free to play.  I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's.  Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop.

I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why.  20 bucks a month... sound fair?  Please give me back sub based gaming.

Because there are never exploits in P2P games...........

Oh yeah that's right there are just as many as in F2P.  Your logic is astounding.

Look at TUG on Kickstarter they already spell out how they plan to go about implementing their version of this idea.

Originally posted by filmoret
Because most of them are.  Sometimes its just changing a number in a code string other times its creating a few variables.  However none of them should take over a few hours of coding.  That is simple compared to thousands of hours creating expansions.

 Seriously?  Cause you personally have access to the game's source code and know how to fix the issue.  The reason those issues aren't usually fixed is because they're not simple.  if it really was just changing a number they probably would have done that.  Or consider this - developers have way more metrics to judge things than you do so if you're crying about the damage on a skill or whatever being OP (only takes a number change to fix) doesn't mean your right.  So the fixes you may be seeking might not even be necessary except in a certain portion of the player population's opinion.

OP there's a game on kickstarter that to some degree is basically what you're talking about:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nerdkingdom/tug-1

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Here's my idea.

You buy a 30 day sub.

You login.

You have 30 "tokens" on your login/character screen.

You click the tokens and one is used.

You now have 24 hours to play with that one token, logging in/out as many times as need throughout that 24 hours.

Can't play tomorrow? No prob, your remaining 29 days are waiting for whenever you want to use them.

At $15 per 30days of tokens, you are spending $.50 for each 24 hour block.

You get all the benefits of the subscription, without feeling you've "lost" your money by only playing a few hours a week.

 Really like your idea as an alternative to the sub model OP.  Good thinking.  It's a bit more complex than other systems but it sounds like it would function well.

Originally posted by UnrealRpg
Very odd that  Access to New Pursuits and New Xbox and PS3 Trophies and Achievements would be DLC. 

Not really on trophies/achievements.  If you didn't buy the new content, you can't play it, and therefore can't get all the connected trophies/achievements.  So why even make them available to you?

Originally posted by Quothera

Yes, I am not unfamiliar with this... I recently gave a presentation on video games and conditioning. Your post is exactly what I'm arguing against. Whether people like to agree or not or whether you want to call it compulsion or addiction. Help still needs to given to people that are suffering at the cause of gaming, it must be recognised. But anyway...that is not my job, I just need data for my report.

Thank you to all the people that have completed my short survey! Keep them coming guys! I highly value your participation thank you so much 

 

Quothera

x

 

 I think you're wrong though.  You're basically saying the target of treatment should be the videogame playing behavior when I'm really saying that is more likely a symptom of the illness rather than the illness itself.  For example, if you treated the "videogame addicts" major depressive disorder you would cure the "videogame addiction" at the same time.  Otherwise you will waste all your time trying to stop them from playing videogames when they're only engaging in that behavior because they're depressed, anxious, agorophobic, etc.  I'm telling you this based on a lot of experience, but I won't list all my credentials to be a smartass.

The behavioral model is a possible explanation but really isn't sufficient to explain the pattern you're witnessing. 

*Sorry for the assumption that you're studying psych.  Regardless of your field best of luck to you now and into the future!

OP, let me start by saying congrats on your recovery and your start in the field of psychology/mental health.  I'm currently a fully licensed mental health practitioner so I thought I would share a few points with you.  Sorry if I come across as  too critical, but hopefully you're receptive to the feedback.

There is no such thing as video game addiction.  Addiction and dependence are defined in both mental and physical health in the ICD 10 and the DSM IV TR (soon DSM V).  There's simply no mention of anything like that.  Gambling, the closest thing to "video game addiction" that's found in these manuals, is also not considered an addiction.  It's an impulse control disorder.  A person that has difficulty regulating their behaviors may share some similarities to an addict but they are not the same by any means. 

Gambling, video games, eating, etc. these are behavioral problems that are explained through behavioral concepts (Classical and Operant conditioning).  Video games provide some form of reinforcement (be it positive or negative) to an individual and therefore he/she wants to play more.  If the reinforcement they get from gaming is greater than that from other sources then most likely this will become their predominant activity.  Attempting to relate them to addicts actually does more harm than good. 

Alternatively, those that suffer from other forms of mental illness, like depression and anxiety for example, may isolate themselves socially, become shut ins, and play video games all day long.  No offense intended but based on the description in your OP this sounds like it may have been the case with you.

Both the behavioral explanation and correlation with underlying mental health issues suggests that video game addiction is simply a red herring and a waste of time for investigation.  The reality is you need to either deal with it like any other behavioral problem (which we have known how to do for 60-70+ years already) or you need to deal with the underlying mental health issues (therapy and/or medication).

Originally posted by AdraScore

Invalid argument... 

Oh yes... this system has a problem... When the product sucks, the one which doesn't want to pay can't ask for quality and the one who paid can't ask either because he did knowingly... but it's not a problem in fact because we can create free shit, just because it's free people can eat it and ask for more... and because there are many people to impress, many guys will paid for shit too, it's a magic world...

Invalid argument...

If the product factually sucks (not as in some people think it sucks) no one's going to be playing it.  Here's the two consumers you described:

Consumer A: "I'm going to play this game I feel is horribe and sucks for free and hope/request it gets better."  

Consumer B: "I'm going to spend a ton of money on this game I think sucks."

Ok....

There's no way to say that F2P is the be all and end all model for the future of MMOs.  Payment models change all the time due to a variety of circumstances.  P2P was a perfectly acceptable and valid form of MMO monetization in the past but it's simply run it's course at this point in time.  For the moment though I'd agree F2P and B2P models are the way to go.  

I just wish any person who thinks P2P is a superior model could provide me with one logical argument as to why it's a better model.  Sorry but there's not better community, better content, more content, higher quality, subs provide way more profit than simply running servers (it really isn't that expensive in 2013), it doesn't pay for future content (expansion packs in P2P double charge you then because you already paid with your sub and with games that provide free expansions like EvE you're paying roughly $180 a year for 1-2 expansions), that's all BS so hopefully any response would be something outside those standards.  I get that you may be forced to pay a sub for your favorite title that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that game, but it doesn't mean their payment model is any better.  The only folks benefiting from P2P are developers.

Originally posted by Karahandras

Originally posted by Squeak69

Originally posted by Wraithone

Thanks, that pretty much sums it up.  Firefall is very much a work in progress at this point.  I very much like some aspects of the game (the Chosen offense/defense, and the combat system).  Others (like the current obsessive focus on thumping for resources) not so much. But Red5 has stated, that there will be alternate methods added to the game, so we will have to see.

One of the more important aspects to keep in mind, is that this is a REAL BETA. Its not a PR ploy to hype up word of mouth. Anyone going into the game, expecting it to be like many companies pre launch game, are going to be badly disappointed.

Red5 has demonstrated the ability to listen to their player base, and actually act on some of their concerns. Which is much more than I can say for many studios I've seen over the years. Bottom line, lets see what happens as they add more content, and polish the various systems.  Time will tell the tale.

i have to disagree, any "BETA" that gives you easy access or more to the point you can pay for access is ot a beta, i can only think of betas like the old one where people got in based purely on thier gameing experence, and where kicked if they where though to be not helping in the beta proccess.

one of the reasons for the financial problems is that they are using beta as a pr ploy, money grab, hype up and so on.

 ^This so much.

Originally posted by IceAge

Originally posted by Nephaerius

As much as I'm looking forward to the title I'm hoping for B2P because there's 0% chance I'll pay for a sub.  I've been playing MMO's since EQ as a kid so this has nothing to do with being a "console player" as another poster suggested.  Paying $15, $10, etc. per month does not result in a better community, it does not result in more content (with an expansion pack you "paid for development with subs" and then you went out an paid for the damn expansion cause that makes a whole lot of sense), does not result in higher quality, does not mean devs listen to players any more than in other models, does not mean there's any less grind, etc. Pretty much every argument for the sub model is pure fallacy and has no weight behind it.

You, are so wrong. Yes, a P2P game makes a better community, it does result in more content and expansion, and quality. If you don't believe me, then go play some F2P's over there, and come back here and tell me what you think. Oh , but please say your point of view about cash shop(s) too.  However, B2P is an option too , as this will "shu shu" kids and the F2P community away, which is fine. If they will make it B2P, I am hoping that the cash shop will be ala GW2, and not ala Aion, Lineage, etc .. etc ......etc.

All in all , Wildstar will be a P2P game, which it should be that way. I will still play it if it's B2P. However, if it's F2P, then ...i'll be waiting for ArcheAge. 

 Let me name some horrible communities for you Rift, WoW, Darkfall, do I even need to keep going because every single game on the planet is full of douches?  I've played a ton of F2P games and the communities are all exactly the same as any P2P or B2P game - a bunch of normal people and a bunch of asshats.  If you think the cost of a $15 sub that usually doesn't even require a credit card at this point (get a time card at the store) actually keeps the riff raff out of any community you're sorely mistaken.  Your argument holds no weight.

As far as cash shops go I've got no problem with the majority of them.  The landscape in cash shops, especialyl in the West, is nothing like when F2P first appeared.  I rarely if ever see what I consider P2W.  Mostly a ton of cosmetics, bank/inventory space, mounts, etc. Whoop-dee-doo!

There's no content.  I'm not taking beta as an excuse because Open Beta starts in June and they've already been accepting money for their game for quite some time.  They're simply rushing it out the door due to the financial woes of their publisher.  If you really think 100's of hours of content is going to show up out of thin air you're deluded.  I've been in Alpha builds of games with more content than Firefall has right now.

Originally posted by Axxar

Originally posted by Nephaerius

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Congrats!  Hopefully the game turns out in a way that will please as many of you as possible.  ill be keeping an eye on it for sure!

 

And its possible to have a mostly "hater" free forum.  Here is how:

 

1.  Dont act like your game is the saviour to the MMO landscape.  It may be for you personally, but for most people it isn't.  This is one of the main things that killed the GW2 forums.

2.  Dont spend your days talking about how WoW, GW2...or even SWTOR suck.  Why provoke their fans?  Focus on what you want to see or don't want to see from those games in CU, but dont blindly trash them.  

3.  The people that break 1 and 2: call them out on it.  i respect Jacobs for publicly speaking out against the spam campaigns.  it makes your community seem awesome when you police yourselves

4.  And don't antagonize the occasional "haters" you will still get.  If you are nice to them and dont give them new material they will just move on.

 

And hopefully you can all find a game that will keep you happy for the next 3 years while CU is being made

I love that MJ "publicly spoke out against spam campaigns" as he literally spammed all of the major video game news outlets begging for coverage of his Kickstarter.  He got called out on it repeatedly on Twitter by various publications/authors - Ben Kuchera from Penny Arcade being the first one to pop into my head. 

Congrats on the game being funded.  It sounds great and like a game I'd love to play, but I'm not throwing down any money until it actually exists.  At this point I'm still skeptical it will ever see the light of day.

This is news to me. Do you have a source for this? I've only seen an article where fans of CU spammed Ben Kuchera and other news sites, but never one about MJ. In fact MJ's been  telling the same people to stop the spam.

 I would if I didn't have to probably go through 1000's of Tweets at this point and I wasn't at work where the PC will explode just trying to load my twitter feed.

Originally posted by Taldier

Originally posted by Nephaerius

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Congrats!  Hopefully the game turns out in a way that will please as many of you as possible.  ill be keeping an eye on it for sure!

 

And its possible to have a mostly "hater" free forum.  Here is how:

 

1.  Dont act like your game is the saviour to the MMO landscape.  It may be for you personally, but for most people it isn't.  This is one of the main things that killed the GW2 forums.

2.  Dont spend your days talking about how WoW, GW2...or even SWTOR suck.  Why provoke their fans?  Focus on what you want to see or don't want to see from those games in CU, but dont blindly trash them.  

3.  The people that break 1 and 2: call them out on it.  i respect Jacobs for publicly speaking out against the spam campaigns.  it makes your community seem awesome when you police yourselves

4.  And don't antagonize the occasional "haters" you will still get.  If you are nice to them and dont give them new material they will just move on.

 

And hopefully you can all find a game that will keep you happy for the next 3 years while CU is being made

I love that MJ "publicly spoke out against spam campaigns" as he literally spammed all of the major video game news outlets begging for coverage of his Kickstarter.  He got called out on it repeatedly on Twitter by various publications/authors - Ben Kuchera from Penny Arcade being the first one to pop into my head. 

Congrats on the game being funded.  It sounds great and like a game I'd love to play, but I'm not throwing down any money until it actually exists.  At this point I'm still skeptical it will ever see the light of day.

It certainly looks like you didnt actually read the article by Ben Kuchera, your brain just saw the words "spam" and "camelot unchained" in the title and automatically decided it was evidence for your blind hatred of Mark Jacobs.

 

Especially since Ben's article very clearly says the exact opposite, pointing out a poorly concieved effort by a small number of fans that MJ tried to stop when he became aware of it.

 Did you even read what I wrote?  I wasn't talking about any article I was talking about a Tweet from Ben on Twitter that literally stated "Mark Jacobs spamming us about your Kickstarter will not get you coverage."  Ben has also stated on Twitter how shady he felt the reward tiers were.  So maybe next time you should read what I wrote instead of getting all butt hurt and replying in a rage.