I basically hated WoW from my 3rd day playing.. a small damn world..some of the cities were bigger than the world but travel was a joke because it was all so close.. no immersion sorry when I can't go running over hills like I could in AC that isn't immersion.  the play was boring.. I rather go back to the zones of EQ1 where the only game where their was some uniqueness.. the dungeon under the water where water breathing and swimming came into play.. the levitation.. the camoflauge that served purpose for getting around when you didn't want to fight all in site, the free fall where you could run off a cliff and float down!   Than EQ2 was a horrible step back they removed the unique abilities.. where did the purpose of swimming go?  Where did the purpose of fishing go?   And wow was even worse.. swimming is and was pretty much non-existant..  the city that was bigger than the entire outside land was ridiculous it felt like I was walking into a dimensional zone or something.  All games past EQ1 just kept losing any unique abilities it went for all graphics and removed the cool features like underwater dungeons, levitation, and free fall to name a few.

Sorry I forgot to post the most unique and fun aspects of the classes.. Barbarians when they went berserk they kept pumping up hitting the berserk button were BERSERK!  The person controlling the barbarian had to keep the clickng praying the barbarian did not land on a party member because they would ONE SHOT KILL the part members as they were so strong!    Talk about unique game play!   The idea was to go to the lair.. everyone wait outside the lair.. barbarian go off screen and pump up than run back onscreen and attempt to get in the lair before killing anyone.. as soon as barbarian went in everyone else jumped in and started casting on the barbarian and hoping that the boss monster kept it's agro on the barbarian because if it didn't than not only was the boss a threat the barb was a threat too!  Until the barb could get back in control and get back to attacking the boss and not the party members!  Now that is what a Barbarians Berserk is suppose to be BERSERK!

Old vs New.. go play the grandfather of online games!  Drakkar!  Now that was a game.. old 2D sprite icons top down view but NO GAME has ever promoted group play as this one had!  NO GAME!  Paladin's best armor was he easiest boss but Paladin until later levels were weak and could not defeat it for many many levels so the class helped the Paladin get their armor.. The first armor for barbarians was the cloak from the second boss the Turtle and everyone and I mean everyone needed Barbarians since they would pump up and get 4 times hit points and 3 times attacking power but also defense decreased by 3 times so they were human pin cushions!   At least 2 healers were needed to be casting heals on the barbarian and in later bosses mentalist to be casting partial invisibility and invulnerability on the barbarian to keep him alive.. Paladins at later levels had some good attacks that were great crowd control..  NOTHING has compared since and I bet nothing WILL!    At high levels to get best gauntlets for the Monks needed to fight the Vampires and to fight Vamps required mining for Gold to buy Hit Points because they sucked Hit Points from you litterally on attacking!  No CLASS had no purpose all were needed to support each other and help each other.. Every class was needed and required on boss hunts!

If you really want to experience a game where classes really mattered and were needed than try out the Drakkar it's still alive and kicking and free!  And it IS the grandfather of all online games.. Drakkar and Legends of Kesmai but LOK is no longer around but Drakkar is still alive and well!   Try out one of the very unique games that made online gaming popular for yourself!   No game with all it's fancy graphics will ever come close unfortunately to say.  Drakkar and LOK started on the original BBS boards and moved to Telnet and finally to become the first online graphic games on the internet.. they are the reason Ultima Online spawned as well as many others that were short lived but to this day Drakkar is still alive and kicking!

MO is the worst Alpha I have ever tried.. and they want to call it an open beta?? <stunned shock>

Phenom 955 Processor

4GB DDR

1GB Radeon HD 5750

Windows 7 32bit Utlimate

and the graphics are a big joke.. oringal nintendo graphics look better.. they are so blurry, degraded and dark the creation screen itself is totally unuseable.. It was so bad I didn't get past the creation screen a whatever it was suppose to be that looked to be in 256 color blurred mess wasn't even able to be identifed.. needless to say to try to play this game.. it's a damn joke!  The creation screen looked exactly like someone took water paints to draw it.. no lie that's how messed up the graphics are.. and I do mean EXACTLY like water paint.

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3) UO - Ultima is not a game I played, but it is a 2d game that started the MMO genre

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Sorry to inform you.. You are s bit incorrect here. There are two games that were the grandfather of almost all online games. LoK (Legends of Kesmai and the KOD (Kingdom of Drakkar) both of which you can still play. These games started as ascii games only on BBS and than ported over to the the very FIRST graphic games online. Thanks these two games for creating the idea of MMO online that Ultima Online than followed upon.

And KoD is the one I mentioned in my post above. If you want to know what started the MMO craze online than go play Drakkar though I hear it's been made easier than it used to be it's still one of the forefathers of all online games! It's popularity in the BBS days is what created the drive to put games online.

For some interesting game facts.

No one that was not gaming at this time knew the fun of playing online games.. talking to the creators directly in meetings.. in game and out of game! Giving opinions and finding out why something was not feasible and working out a compromise that would work! The day and age when the developers cared and you knew them by name personally! They even met at conventions if you had the money to go. Drakkar can be said to be one of the GREAT FOUNDERS of online games going way back to the unix days. An excerpt from the creator of Drakkar.

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KoD Creator
Posts: 956
Location:
Joined Date:
July 4 2002, 15:46
Brad Member of Administrators Replying to Topic 'Past Lives' was posted on: 09-13-03 23:02:24

Bah, rumors. Just to clear things up completely:

I am the sole creator of Realm which became Drakkar. Others have written scenarios, and helped maintain the game, but its my insanity.

I wrote the game in college, it was a center screen side scroller MMRPG like rogue. Then a friend turned me onto iok and i adopted the same symbol set as them (close), and moved the display window to the upper right.

The game was developed on a PDP11, and later ported to unix (still called REALM at the time).. There are still a couple original players online ( won't give names ) who played on the DISK BBS (where it ran)

I never worked for kesmai corp, or had even heard of the game until a friend turned me onto it while i was in college. Drakkar is not IOK, never was, never even took a similar development path other than the superficial stuff (think about the game styles, they are light years apart) (though i was heavily influenced by rogue, moria and IOK) (And LUVED iok by the way)

In college, I was contacted by MPGN to license the game, which they did, and produced a graphical frontend for it. There was no internet then.

I accepted, and we made a graphical frontend, put it up on MPGN, and I took a cut of the profits. "ben" was an employee of mpgn at the time, but was working on ANOTHER game mpgn was writing.

MPGN eventually dropped development of their game, and switched to mine. It grew and grew, etc.

MPGN then got a very, very early access line to what was then a newly broken off portion of milinet, called the internet. It was through C$S believe it or not.. So we grabbed it, and got a CLASS B internet address (if you can believe it).. And put drakkar up on it.. (hence it was the original, first, and only graphical MMRPG on the internet).

One day, Ben ("mirror") offered to "RUN" the game for me, and I accepted. He ran it for a couple years, until an unfortunate incident caused a breakup of that relationship.

About 10 years ago, MPGN purchased complete rights to drakkar from me, and took over management. I was a consultant (and programmer on other projects)

Many years later, MPGN merged with IEN, i left the company, drakkar died on the vine, and I swooped in a couple years ago and bought it back.

I sure hope that clears up all the rumors about where this all started

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Hopefully this gives you some respect for great creators like this that imagined games online and I feel sad to say what has become of online games with there dumbed down cookie cutter mold play.

Ok I haven't really seen a fun game since the old days of games like Drakkar. It created a NEED to help others.. for example as a paladin you could get the best armor early in the game by the first boss but as a Paladin you were way too weak to even fight the Red Dragon that the other classes. So the other classes helped you the Paladin to obtain your best armor so you can help out with the other bosses. Next mob was a turtle that gave a cloak so you go help out to get the cloak that everyone can wear but is the only gear those like Barbarians and Monks could wear for defense. And the mobs went on.. it required 2 or 3 healers healing a barbarian that was truely berserk.. the barb would have to go offscreen from everyone.. pump up berserk until he could barely click where he wanted to go and run back on screen HOPING not to kill anyone in the process and run into the den for the creature under attack.. The barbarian hit point tripled and strength quadrupled.. but their defense dropped so everyone would run in to give support to the barb.. healers healing because the BARBARIAN was a human pin cushion.. the mentalist if they had shielding would shield and the others all helped hit on the boss.. and the Barb was keeping pumped up to keep the boss on him and not the others.. it was cooperative play at it's best.

Now the game was interesting from the start.. as soon as you logged on and joined the pub.. you saw tables with avatars representing the others and you could if they did not lock the table listen in on the plans of big hunts and strategies to defeat the next boss.. it was fun.. though grinding was at a premium to buy hit points especially with the Vamps because they drained hit points. Gone is game play like this where it took many working toward the next goal to the point that PvP was never an issue because the challenge was to defeat the next boss and obtain the next gear for the next class.. who in turn will help than to be able to defeat the next boss.. growth was exciting and productive if it wasn't for the grinding for hit points.

Than you had games that did some things right like EQ1 that had camouflage, levitation, free fall, swimming under water for dungeons.. to only remove all that was unique and fun to do a cookie cutter mold removing the unique game play aspects EQ1 had.. Innovation keeps dying not innovating.. if it was innovating we would be seeing features like these in all games..

Think if game companies kept innovation.. the cooperative game play with it's pub tables for chat rooms, the unique game play like levitation, free fall, jumping, resurrection, underwater cities and dungeons, mobs that are dangerous but give great rewards like the vamps, fast and furious fighting, little resting with bandages, fast leveling, more interactive combat like Asheron's Call 1 had. The innovation would be to take the best of the games and keep expanding not dropping them. Abilities that would let you actually control the weather.. imagine a powerful mage causing a blizzard that hindered everyones view and travel, or tornado that caused anyone in the area to possibly get sucked up and discarded who knows where hurt from the fall. Random weather in game that caused this to happen.. their would be excitement and fear in traveling not knowing if it is going to be safe or not. Travel forms and travel methods like Champions Online. Expand on what is current and not limit.. not remove.. but add.. Realms vs Realms and not player vs player but realms like WoW intended.

Excellent post.  I too loved and occasionally play Rogue.  I also am an old schooler and played BBS games.. Heck I was a cosysop of a BBS board.  And the most challenging games in terms of bosses was old Drakkar.. Drakkar and LoK were the forefathers of all MMO games :)    Drakkar required more strategy and discussion and plotting than ANY game I have every played.. you logged into the game in an INN with tables.. join a table and devise strategies to defeat bosses like the Vampires that you lost hit points when you died by them.. and it was not cheap repurchasing them back.  Or bosses that have cloaks of limited invulnerability.  Barbarians pumped up berserk and came running past you on screen and into the bosses lair because they would kill anyone in sight.  Than everyone would plunge in after them.. healers casting healing, mentalist casting spells of protection, and other sticks attacking.. many a times was I one shot killed by a berserk barbarian.. they tended to stay on the target they were fighting but sometimes they would attack one of the members since the boss would be attacking mostly the barb but he would occasionally attack others as well.  And it took all the classes helping each other.. paladins were weak until level 16 which took a long time to get too.. they needed their Red Armor best armor for them.. but the weakest boss Red Dragon was too strong for them until they got their armor.. so all the other classes had to help Paladins get their armor.. than off to the next boss for the next class.. each boss had something that another class needed but without help of other classes you would never achieve it.. so all the other classes had to support each other.. I still remember this game with many fond memories.  It is hear that the new mainstream graphic games are not able to reach this type of gameplay.. where all classes have to help each other.. and support each other.

Couple of you are older players but none go back as far as me it seems.. I played the closed beta of Kingdom of Drakkar and Lands of Kesmai.  Both of them games are the forefathers of all online games!  They started out on BBS boards and than they became the first graphic MMO games ever..  after the success of these two games others launched and UO finally game out.  But to this day for the strategy involved in game play to defeat bosses have never been touched that these two games had.. Drakkar hunting the vampires that sucked hit points from you permanently so had to go and drudging away for more gold to buy more hit points.. the game still holds very fond memories for me and the strategy involved could never be duplicated in todays games.

I too am in a position where my account has not been reactivated yet.  I even sent and email early this morning and have not received word.. tried online chat and it was down today :(   So no word and no reactivaton of account.

Um... isn't this contradictory, here and and in relation to your other points? Do you want combat to be more challenging or less challenging? A good /stick function makes fighting easier, not more interactive, which is what I thought you wanted.

No I said a target lock not a stick.. When I mean target lock.. perhaps I should describe it as a face lock.  Because camera tend to be messy in any MMO.  The intelligent follow can get a tree stuck in your way so you can't see.  So I just meant a way to keep facing the target so you can worry about the other combat buttons..  Dodge, kick, block, step back to avoid a hit, dodge to side aka strafing. 

Now a skill based system that also worked was SWG to a degree.. I'm talking a hybrid skill/level system.  Ok so everyones number 1 complaint about skill based system is you cap it and eventually everyone will be the same.  But that is where you cap the skill it should than branch off into a tree choice like SWG.  Now you start on a different path for the same skill.. Someone wielding sword might focus on more specialized variety of sword type skills..

 I'm sure if people brainstormed ideas would come but let's just throw an idea out.. dumb example but an example never the less.   You capped your sword skill than you start on another path.. One path could be a multi oppponent style attacks, while another could be duel wielding.  Both have it's advantages.  Now if you played AC1 you know how long it took to cap your skill.. Now a new path of skill opens up for you to choose.. AC 1 only allowed so many skill points to buy skills some were cheaper others were more expensive so nobody could get all the skills even at level 150+.  That could just be one skill tree your working on.. you may also have blunt weapons, armor skills (armor types), shields, pikes, ect..   You could almost think of maxing your skills as going to the next level.. and starting a new branch from there.  A good skill based system is a combination of both class/level/skills and skills only go up by using them.. not just leveling up.

But the dumbed down class/level based system is totally boring and gives no feeling of accomplishment at all.  Oh boy I leveled now I can use this ability that I never used before.  But a skill based system you will get that new ability based on your level but it's going to be very very innefective and require alot of practice to make it even useful.  Just as you can go purchase a musical instrument but if you don't practice you never will sound good on it.  Same with wielding weapons and wearing different types of armor.

First of all I wasn't trying to diss anyone's intelligence as much as it seems their resignation toward cookie cutter MMO's.  In the past everyone was clamoring for non cookie cutter but it seems too many have started just accepting it  Afraid to gimp themselves or something else not sure but I just don't understand why they want customizaton in all other games but MMO's.  Why the contradiction?

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Originally posted by MagicStar
If skilled based was to happen, then you will see a lot of cookie cutter first person shooter type games.

Like Neocron and planetside.

I really don't know what a perfect skilled based mmo would actually be... except for mabie flight combat type games without the dice rolling and leveling but that is not what everyone wants anyways.

Everything is a cookie cutter these days.

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 Well AC1 was a successful example of a skill based system that was not a cookie cutter.  For example when I was a level 42 swordman (levels didn't mean much since it was skill based) I was hunting areas that level 50+ swordsman couldn't handle.. Reason being I focused my skills different.. I raised up creature magic so that I could buff myself and my weapon.. and the majority of my skills was into my sword, melee defense, and first aid.   I could handle quite a few mobs at a time because my first aid and melee defense was quite high.  I loved saving people that was 10 levels above me.. or suprising people because they would be like man your too low for this area.. but would quickly change their mind after seeing me combat for a while.

 Eventually I dropped one of my skill focuses to pick up a different skill like making keys.. didn't need it at lower levels but later on I really needed it so ran a quest that would let me drop a skill and get some of my exp back for that skill to put into another.  It was a very well done skill based system.. Classes meant nothing really since it all really was skill based system.

 Secondly because of it being a skill based system people created a variety of various templates they like depending on if their focus was PvE or PvP.  Everyone was different.. some went for more speed.. some went for more jumping.. Nobody was the same and even at level 100+ most players didn't cap out all their skills.

posted this on another forum about combat system based on class/level vs skill based combat.

Problem with Combat is they have all gone to cookie cutter class/level where everyone is the same.  What happened to uniqueness of character with skill based systems?  Where your character could be truely unique and feel like it's your own.

Today's MMO games solution is just to give you more and more combat abilities but having 20 plus type of buttons to push for combat doesn't make it funner that is for sure.  Just gives you more selection of button pushing. Just pushing buttons in specific orders is not active at all.

AC1 had it right with being able change type of attack and speed (which affected damage total) while in combat. Hmm.. hitting low is not doing very well let's try a high slash. It was alot more interactive. It gave control on how you wanted to swing and attack. The MMO need to get out of the rote pattern of simple button presses and calling it combat.

Combat since it is one of the biggest portions of any MMO game needs to be active:
1. Mix a bit of DoAC where you did some attacks from sides or rear for more damage.
2. Add defensive, neutral, or offensive stance for attacks with proper bonuses.
3. Add the low, mid, and high attack types (certain attacks work better on different creatures)
4. Add reason to have more than one weapon skill. Blunt weapons better on some creatures or sharp on others.
5. Make it harder to hit a moving mob so if they or us are physically moving that it gives attack minuses. This gives us a reason to move in battle and not just stand still attacking.
6. Give us a toggle to lock on target button. We are fighting we can lock on target than keep using the same cursor keys to strafe to left and right of the mob we are fighting. We already got so many keys to press that it's hard to use seperate strafe keys too. Only so many fingers per hand to use. Goes well with suggestion number 5.

Now that would make combat fun and more interactive. And would blow away any current combat system in any MMO right now as well as break out of the poorly handled combat systems that are in them now.

On a side note I got responses like from this posting:

Skill based systems confuse the vast majority of your run-of-the-mill game players. That's why you don't see them being done. I like them... But I also understand why they're not viable.

Honestly in some ways I believe games have gone backwards!  I'm 37 years old and I started playing MMO's back in BBS days.. old text base games.  But I played the father of all the games we play now and them were Lands of Kesmai and Kingdom of Drakkar!   Now them were games to be proud of.  I beta tested them both and played them when released and played on KoD as Molitar and Malaac for those that might of played them games.  I also had a barbarian but forgot his name now.  Now let's discuss the fun aspects of KoD that NOBODY else has come close to accomplishing.

1. Planning!  Planning!  Planning!  When you first entered the game you entered in what was like an inn just some tables with avatars of those seated at the table discussing plans!  This was tremendous fun even as a low player I could listen to the plans of those above me discussing hunts to get the vamps!  Now these were real and true strategies it brought out the AD&D feel and I'll go more into that later.

2. Every class had it's role!  It took someone of every class to do boss hunts!  Healers and multiple healers to keep the entire party alive!  Mentalist with their shields, partial invisibility, partial invulnerability!  Paladins with their powerful attacks and armor.  Thieves with their superb backstab.  Every class had it's role!  No class was left lacking!  They were so important in later missions the higher ups helped you to obtain the gear to help you level.

3. Hit points was the grind factor and that factored into you needed hit points at higher levels to fight vamps that sucked out experience and hit points!  It took careful planning to do these and what was the reward for vamps the BEST martial art gloves their is in the game!  Why would others risk helping martial artist get these gloves?  Because they were required for the next boss so they in return could get their best item in the game!  It required team work!

4. Their was no real limit to how many could group but their was very very careful planning and strategy.  The runs to these lairs was very dangerous but once they got their they could set a twig that would recall them their when they died!  They would die dozens of times to accomplish their mission.  You really felt proud when you finally obtained that item!  And remember they had to do it more than once to get everyone their gear.

Now back to planning.  I remember sitting at the table and they discussing their battle plans for the boss we called reggie who had the best Cloak in the game!  This cloak was awesome armor when worn.  Now to do Reggie required those in the front when entering the lair to only step 1 hex at a time more and they would be dead they needed to keep as many of raiders on the screen when they first spotted him because he was dangerous.. They had to discuss every move.. what every persons roles was..  The dangers of the vamps..  The strategy involved.  And Barbarians were one of the most respected classes of the game they could go berserk pumping their hit points if I remember correctly to like 4x their normal amount and their strength also went way up.  But their defense went way way down.  So it took mentalists, yes plural to cast spells to help defense, healers constantly healing the barb and hopefully the random attack that the boss would do on other party members.  And if the boss switched targets paladin and others trying to get them to switch to them with better defense than the healers and mentailist.  And when the boss was killed the barb had to fight to get out of the lair with himself because it took a while for berskerk to wear down many a party members were killed by a berskerk barbarian! 

The real grind of this game end up not just being level to get a couple more spells that would help you and not just a bunch of spells for fluff, but also to max hit points.  It was a die roll type whe

n you leveled to hw much hit points you got at level.  But their was a hit point seller not easily to get to in the beginning that yhou could buy hit points at.  Hit points were cheap at first but the more you buy the more costly it would get to purchase a single hit point but was required for the vampire hunts.  This was the ONLY game where when I leveled I really felt I accomplished something because every single level made you that more useful to the higher ups!  I remember when a mentalist hit level 16 and got partial invisibility you were a great asset to even those nearly twice your level!  That was one spell that was hoarded for almost every major boss battle!  So spells were not tons of spells but one or two that would remain as powerful as when you first got them.. very rare was it to have a spell that was called greater invisibility tho their was that was quite a distance tho from the first so the first version remained useful for a very long time.

But remember this was the forefather of games like utlima online, everquest, ect so the graphics are old outdated 2D graphics and the game is free but run on donations.   So now you can buy hit points, ect locker, ect all for some actual money so the game isn't quite what it was back than the strategist are not their anymore.  The old gamers like I am not their anymore but it remains one of our BEST memories for online gaming ever.  And you can sample it to see how the game played it was an absolute blast in the past and if a game was able to come out of it with the strategy, planning, and gameplay that one had with today's 3D capability it would be a real accomplishment.  Too much mundane grind, grind, grind with no strategy or planning in mind!  The real problem with today's games is they have been DUMMBED DOWN!