It is what we call a lack of imagination. This is an ongoing trend in the growing population of people playing games. They can not identify with anything else but that what they already know. For example, most casual gamers prefer any realistic FPS over a SF FPS (eventhough UT or Q3 are much better in creating the competitive environnement they crave than any realistic FPS) and even when it comes to mere visual style these people tend to prefer realism over SF.  These people, lets call them the mainstream, woudl rather have the next CoD to have a similar setting as the previous titles (modern warfare) than a SF setting. Why? Lack of imagination. Lack of the ability to identify with anything else that goes beyond their personal, daily experience.

Games, imho, are created to escape from realism. To be different from the boring things we already experience every single day. However, the big gaming crowd seems to disagree. They prefer not to put effort in learning or apreciate something different or refreshing, and prefer to consume the same content presented to them in a slightly different color or shape. This is why you see the ongoing trend in the game industry pooping out sequel after sequel for the main reason that they sell. You can actually read some recent statements by big companies like Ubisoft claiming they will focus more on sequels for this very reason.

The prove might not be scientific, but just by looking at the games of these days you can clearly see this tend. Games like Psychonauts that have original and refreshing gameplay sell poorly compared to a sequel that is fundamentally the same as the previous title with upgraded graphics and a new generic story with scripted 'epic' events(CoD, GoW etc).In fact these scripted events is what worries me the most. Really what is that people are so easily impressed by scripted content. Aka gameplay that is in fact not gameplay, but rather footage that will always happen regardles of the player's input. The whole lack imagination comes back here aswell. People prefer to be TOLD that they are a hero and badass in a linear storyline and take this for granted, eventhough every single other player of that game gets told that THEY are the hero aswell, therefore the player never really was a hero by his own actions, but because the game told him so and directed him to be one. As long as the player has the feeling of being badass, it doesn't matter to him how many times he is actually playing the same content. However when he is asked to be creative, to acutally be a hero and to actually create his own story by his own imput in the game, he feels disconnected and found himself not to be entertained at all.

Last example before I end this rant that is fully based on my own opinion and is not fact in the slightest, the monster boxoffice hit Avatar. Avatar is visually stunning, other than that it is actually a rather poor movie. The fact that it still managed to entertain so many people has nothing to do with it having a great script or anything else, only with the unimaginative public it was dedicated to. The script was laughable and actually everything but the effects were. I saw people praising James for being so creative while both the script and the world Pandora were anything but creative. Really, the parallels between our world and Pandora are so big, that its essentially the same planet with a marine style to it. Horses with 6 legs used as primary transportation methods, blue indians that have indian like rituals and behavior, using bow and arrow as their main weapon. Any animal on pandora seems very similar other than a few details to animals living on our own planet. Humanlike indians(do you even know how small the chance is that there is live in the universe that has evolved in a similar way as ours, now imagine, if you can, the chance that they are at allmost in the exact same point in evolution as us). The script was a poor version of Dances with wolves (a prety long movie that the public would probably find boring) in space with epic battles and retarded dialog trown in to appeal to the crowd. It was one big actonflick cliche that people had seen for at least a 100 times before put in a nice visual jacket and the people loved every singly second of it. Really this was basicly like someone on a stage telling the public they were retarded idiots without any personality or creativity and the public answering with applause and praise, confirming this very statement. To think people actually killed themselves over the pathetic movie that Avatar was it rather depressing....

Got exactly the same feeling as the other gameplay vids, boring. The walking animation has been mentioned enough, but I still think the combat animation looks horrific aswell. I thought there was suposed to be collision detection? Or is this only for weapon clashing? Cause I see people drop dead while the weapon clearly does not hit the target. The rest is most likely due to the player being low level and Im sure combat will be much better on higher levels.

The environnement looks rather dull, but I guess this is because its a beginners area.

VO looked very nice, but I couldnt care less at this moment.  VO would be great if the rest of the game is fun and polished, and I am still not convinced by the available footage. I hope there will be high level footage soon, because that will prety much clear the doubt I have, either in a positive or a negative way.

Originally posted by kaydinv

Oh hey, this is like when people took the word "ganking" and made it synonamous with PKing, even though someone that PK's isn't necessarily ganking (ganking means to do it with far greater numbers btw you fucking WoW retards).

 

Someone actually thinks bunny hopping is simply running around jumping constantly? That's funny, cause it's not. Bunny hopping is timed jumping that increases momentum. It is unique to certain FPS games and has nothing to do with jumping for the sake of jumping.

 

Who cares though, right? You WoWheads never cared for what terms meant in the first place. You just change something from one definition (that makes sense) to another (that doesn't)!

 

...Like MMORPG.

Kind of what he said...

Furthermore, I havn't played any MMO in which repetitive jumping had any use. I also havn't noticed a lot of players that constantly did it within the MMOs I played. So for me there is really no issue....

There is one thing I would like to point out to the fan side of the war between the fans and the haters. You do realize dat there is and will be no loss on the hater side right? While you have high expectations and the haters have low expectations with similar intensity, the hater will not be bothered by the possibility of being told 'I told you so' (this seems to be what it is all about on these forums lately) and will not miss out on anything, as he or she can still play ToR when it turns out the fans where right. If the fans are not right however, not only will they have to suffer the torture of 'I told you so', they will also be utterly dissapointed and will grief over their $50 not well spent. In fact the insane intensity of this defending of ToR against any form of criticism, kind of makes one wonder whether these people will ever be able to smile again when this game does not live up to their expectations.

The reason why I point this out is not to rub it in or to provoke (aka troll), but it is more to show you the stupidity that is defining this raging war between the fans and haters of a video game. It is not about rational discussion anymore, but more about trying to dicredit and ridicule the people who hold a different opinion than you do. These intentions will not accomplish anything as there is nothing really at stake here in this discussion. So I really do not see the point in trying to discredit, bash or ridicule anyone, as is clearly tried by the OP and praised by some, and the above was means of showing this (again not to offend you or troll you).

Originally posted by Assassin1152

Originally posted by cinos

Originally posted by Shinami

The answer to your question "How is it possible?" Comes from personal experience.

 

If a developer optimises gamecode, one can bitstream a lot of code. Bitstreaming means that you make a program consume more client side processor resources in order to turn questions the server ask the client into "Yes" or "No" questions. The placeholder for YES is 1 and for NO is 0 in binary. Bitstreaming is about asking questions, organizing the bits together....and sending them as a packet. YES also means (TRUE) and NO also means (FALSE). 

 

Suppose your connection uses 7,000 bytes per second. One bit equals eight bytes. So we have 56,000 bits per second. This was the definition of 56K. The truth is that when one used dialup (56K), it wasn't 100% 56K and it by the time you did reach the server, you would only have around 1,000 bytes left in the server. (8K) 

 

What efficient netcoding does is allow more data to be send in less packets. 

 

Ok, now we go into servers. As a person who modded RYL for netcoding and even ran my own MMORPG server for three years that had over 8000 accounts registered, we can have a discussion.

 

The number of accounts in an MMO is irrelevent. 12 million Worlds of Warcraft accounts, or 5 million Guild Wars accounts means nothing to the server world outside of bragging rights. What matters is the total amount of players logged into the server at any given time. You will never have 12 million WoW players or 5 Million GW players logged in at the same time. 

 

As far as bandwtih goes, every player has a MAX CLIENT RATE. This is the maximum amount of bandwith a server gives to a client (one of us playing the game). LOTS OF CLIENT-SCAMS exist....A Good max client rate helps with framerate and ping. 

 

Suppose I have a 100 mbps Upload/Download Connection. Given a Max Client Rate of 7,000, how many players can play simultaneously? The answer is 100,000/56 = 1785.71. In server bandwith you do not ROUND UP, since you will RUN OUT. The answer is always an Integer.....1785. Then there is the fact I need to keep the connection alive....and use some bandwith for the databases...Thanks to multicore computers I can use LESS computers to hold the game world. What it means is that the connection can support 1785 players before everyone gets disconnected from lack of bandwith. 

 

Client rate really means if you have 56K upload on your connection, I have to use 56K upload on my connection to give to you. If you have a Connection with 2mbps upload, tough luck. Im limiting you to 56K but its not like dialup since its continuous and not 1K out of 7K. 7KB in pure text editing....is enough to write 56,000 characters....you can write a book per second!

 

RYL had five maps....Human Map 1, Human Map 2, Akkan Map 1, Akkan Map 2, Caernevoron (the main battle/neutral map split evenly between the two). I used to use one computer to run Caernevoron and another computer to run the other four maps....with databases accessed from a third computer. Thanks to Technology....I was able to actually reach a point I Could build One computer and run the entire server with all the maps without it lagging from processing. 

 

Suppose I installed a monthly fee, you know to preserve the connection strength of the server....and I decided to charge everyone $10/month. (Yes, im getting into Client-Rate Scamming which many companies do)...

 

It means that since the average amount of people who play in my server would be around 1000...I would still collect money from all subscribed...So 8,000 x 10 = $80,000 monthly. Due to the fact a SERVER does not need a video card, as its really pure processing..:), One can make a well cooled server and put in a well cooled room....

 

Client-Rate scamming is something that many companies do. A lot of companies will say "WE JUST UPDATED OUR SERVERS TO PROVIDE MORE ROOM FOR PLAYERS!!!! LOG IN AND HAVE FUN" and you log into the server and find you have more lag, and see more players and crowdedness....

 

The truth is they DID NOT UPDATE ANYTHING...what they did was lower the client rate, so everyone else gets less bandwith. Everyone gets worse performance and higher ping due to the crowdedness and the parent company makes more money from SUBSCRIPTION FEES. Of course its nice to feel you are loved since it helps people undergo a nice placebo effect. 

 

It requires less than 1% of all the money collected monthly to maintain an MMORPG server. Most processes are automated...:) The first 1 million Guild Wars players paid full price for three games + expansion. That is $200. This means $200 million dollars....and that along with promotions and their in-game store which gives you more options without having a gameplay advantage (like more character slots (I have 12) and more storage panels (I have max), really did a lot for the game. Before the In-game store came, people had to BUY 2 copies of Guild Wars, make 2 accounts, unlock everything on both and trade between accounts. It was a pain in the ass...Today one can just buy Guild Wars trilogy for a second account. 

 

The point is that thanks to technologies today...Today a Server Computer can hold 16 - 24 cores :) and requires less power to run than servers back then that were on one core. You can use one computer with instances of the server running on different cores to control different parts of the world and the Entire 15 server Ragnarok Online world with 50,000 server population can be done with one of those server machines and reach near 100,000 people per server with no problems. :)

 

In short....any MMORPG that takes 1 month of Fees, has enough money to actually keep the servers alive for 8 - 10 years....1 million subscribers who pay $50 for the base game and 15 for the first month is 65 million dollars. A year of fees..is enough to keep a server running for a lifetime. In short, MMORPGs are just moneymaking scams for the most part....to convince you that you SHOULD PAY TO PLAY and then make you FEEL GOOD that you are PART OF SOMETHING.

 

Before GW 1 came out, everyone said that YOU HAVE TO PAY TO PLAY AN MMORPG OR IT WILL DIE. After GW1 came out, everyone said "OH GW IS NOT PERSISTENT. SO IT DOESNT COUNT" but Instanced Games take more bandwtih to actually run than non-instanced games.....so when GW II is released and you have a full persistent game...if it succeeds...

 

The world no longer has an EXCUSE to hide behind. No longer will anyone be able to defend why a game needs monthly fees to survive. This is why I want GUILD WARS 2 to succeed.

 

This is the best post in the thread.

All those people asking how ArenaNet are going to 'pull off' GW2 without subs need to read this.

Looking at you Rynne. :)

Agree

Because one can never quote the truth enough....

(and people on these forums tend to only reply on things that are either in sync with their believes or easily challenged and ignore any post that might jeopardize their extremist opinion)

Originally posted by Elikal

I am not sure what this article is about to do. First I read nothing new in there. Second, I see it is full of generalizations, like "it is no Sandbox" or "it is no WOW killer". I haven't seen any real debate about this. I have seen lots of people who want certain ELEMENTS of sandboxes and ELEMENTS of open world and space. The number of people really want to change TOR all around into an UO/SWG like sandbox is microscopic. So for whom is this sermon supposed to be?

I just fail to see the target audience here.

Finally. It is Star Wars. People will be passionate about their wishes, like playing SW alien races. Period. They are Star Wars fans and as such they have the right to bemoan that something they love in Star Wars isn't in the next SW MMO.

So again, for whom is this written? What is this article supposed to do? I just fail to see the point.

When potential customers have wishes, want features, like playable aliens or open world or real space, it isn't up to some editor to berate them why their wishes are meaningless. Wishes exist. Yes you can say Bioware won't fulfill them. Great news. But going to us and telling our wishes are not valid or you are tired of hearing them is just... pointless. Products change all the time because customers voice their wishes. A MMO is in constant flux. So why should be not say our wishes and hope at some time something of it is added? It is what customers always do.

 

It just sounds like the age old brush off "it isn't for you". Well see how good THAT worked in the last 15 MMOs which were launched and fell on their faces because they ignored a larger part of the fanebases wishes.

 

And personally asking the OP: Don't you ever feel, when you look at SWTOR "Wow, they got 300 million dollars and THIS is ALL?" Not once? I mean sure it looks ok, and some things look even cool. But don't you ever think that with SUCH a huge investment a MMORPG (about STAR WARS!) could and should be... more than just half baked stuff in so many areas? More that just "more of the same"? Well at least I think a bit more creativity and out of the box thinking wouldn't be so much to expect.

 

If I take what the OP writes, it essentially says developers are doing what they like, we don't need to discuss, because it doesn't make a difference. Might I ask you: Why then are you hosting a MMO forum? So that we blindly praise every decision made by the great game devs? I am sorry if I mistook the purpose of MMO forums so much.

I made this "bold", because I really want an answer to this.

To me it all reads like one big "critics STFU" article. I don't feel well with the overall belittlement towards critics, like we all were silly or trolls.

And again people deny the post that actually has a point. God I just love reading these forums, sometimes it can entertain me for hours.

Originally posted by ZERMINUS

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

So why are you commenting on a Massively article here? Shouldn't we do that over there?

No, let's do it here.

After all, massively.com expresses the views of many of us in the forum who have been relentlessly attacked and baited by the fanbois trying to drown out the questions and worries we have had about this game.

QFT.

Some people see it as a holy duty to defend this game and fight every single comment that is slightly negative or critical with rediculous arguments. Even for having concerns you will het jumped from at least four directions...

These are exactly my concerns. However whenever I post them on mmorpg forums, I am apparantly a hater with no clue about this game. It are just conerns, no predictions.

Just created a facebook account so I could follow this. My guess though is that they won't be very specific about what people will get, unless they already planned this event a while ago ofcourse.

Char :)

Really the first two posts makes crafting sound absolutely awesome. I would play a game just for the crafting alone if such systems were used. I can now see why there are so many SWG vets who are still angry over the changes made to it

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by cyphers

2 Sorry, but I must admit I do nto post often but do read a lot of the forums. You always jump on anyone being critical and go in full defense mode and most of the time it is totally unnecessary.....

Nope, uninformed gut-feeling comments, or hate campaigns as some disgruntled SWG vets and sandbox lovers hold or overtly biased repetitive criticising just because a game isn't their type, is what can get me annoyed. Sometimes it just makes me roll my eyes or chuckle, but when the annoyance reaches a threshold or when the mood strikes I post.

WOW, again you prove to be someone who takes things out of context. I;m clearly not the only one was refering to the previous sentence.. I do not think this will be a SRPG at all, I do not think anything. I just havn't seen anything yet, that tells me otherwise. That doesn't me it is not there till I see it, it means I do not know till I see it. Clearly I have missed info though. So what? Is this some kind of contest? Or maybe this wasn't a discussion but a debate?

Maybe you read my post wrong: you said you weren't convinced SW:TOR would be a full blown MMORPG, right after that you say "I'm clearly not the only" and then you use as an example people saying SWTOR is a SRPG with some multiplay elements. The way you worded your comments highly suggest that you consider yourself to "not be the only one" but to be among other people saying that SW:TOR isn't a fullblown MMO and/or a SRPG. That is what your post led to be concluded. If that is as you say the wrong interpretation, alright, no problem with that. That's what discussions are for, sharing insights and viewpoints and where needed clarifications.

In orangy

Well thanks this repsonse.. What I meant with the context issue is that I am not convinced this is a full blown MMO and that other people also arn't and SOME actually think that its just a SRPG, proving that people really arn't convinced at all. I do not think it will be a SRPG, yet I am also not 100% convinced it isn't. The outcome will be either release or actual proof (that I have missed clearly :P).

I might have come of a bit pissed, but really I was just trying to have a discussion with these people here but they kept twisting my words (which are sometimes indeed poorly chosen as my spelling in english sucks so I use a more limited vocab) and pulling things I said out of context.

Contradictions, we twist your words?

Then you admit to your english being rather bad?

I never said my english was bad, I said I suck at spelling and therefore I use a limited vocab to avoid mistakes. I actually am bad in spelling in my native language :P.

Clearly you are twisting my words here and I never said my english is bad at all.  Evenmore so you try to use this to refute my claim that you twist my words. While you just proved that you do in fact twist my words. Also I you read back the enitre conv. there are multiple occasions, starting with your very first reply to me that was limited to only on sentence and pulled it out of context.

Also twisting words means you are actually twisting the things i am saying. My reference to words here was that my words are sometimes poorly chosen, as in WORDS themselves. I am nto saying that the way I am voicing my opinion is poorly chosen and therefore it is easily minsunderstood. Note that i say VOCAB as in the actual words and I clrealy said my vocab was limited because of my spelling. It was kind of a joke on myself tbh.

 

And didn't masked link you something or explain to you group play has been demonstrated a few times? Destroying "It's a SPRPG" theory?

Never was my theory to begin with. This yet again proves that you are taking the things I say out of context, Also one feature does not make a full mmo, the thing I WAS talking about,

YOu do it again right here. Twisting my words...

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by cyphers

2 Sorry, but I must admit I do nto post often but do read a lot of the forums. You always jump on anyone being critical and go in full defense mode and most of the time it is totally unnecessary.....

Nope, uninformed gut-feeling comments, or hate campaigns as some disgruntled SWG vets and sandbox lovers hold or overtly biased repetitive criticising just because a game isn't their type, is what can get me annoyed. Sometimes it just makes me roll my eyes or chuckle, but when the annoyance reaches a threshold or when the mood strikes I post.

WOW, again you prove to be someone who takes things out of context. I;m clearly not the only one was refering to the previous sentence.. I do not think this will be a SRPG at all, I do not think anything. I just havn't seen anything yet, that tells me otherwise. That doesn't me it is not there till I see it, it means I do not know till I see it. Clearly I have missed info though. So what? Is this some kind of contest? Or maybe this wasn't a discussion but a debate?

Maybe you read my post wrong: you said you weren't convinced SW:TOR would be a full blown MMORPG, right after that you say "I'm clearly not the only" and then you use as an example people saying SWTOR is a SRPG with some multiplay elements. The way you worded your comments highly suggest that you consider yourself to "not be the only one" but to be among other people saying that SW:TOR isn't a fullblown MMO and/or a SRPG. That is what your post led to be concluded. If that is as you say the wrong interpretation, alright, no problem with that. That's what discussions are for, sharing insights and viewpoints and where needed clarifications.

In orangy

Well thanks this repsonse.. What I meant with the context issue is that I am not convinced this is a full blown MMO and that other people also arn't and SOME actually think that its just a SRPG, proving that people really arn't convinced at all. I do not think it will be a SRPG, yet I am also not 100% convinced it isn't. The outcome will be either release or actual proof (that I have missed clearly :P).

I might have come of a bit pissed, but really I was just trying to have a discussion with these people here but they kept twisting my words (which are sometimes indeed poorly chosen as my spelling in english sucks so I use a more limited vocab) and pulling things I said out of context.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by impiro

This is the problem with you fanbois, you CHOOSE the things to reply to and ignore the rest and take the things you do reply to out of context for convenience. I have no hate for ToR. I do not completely dislike this game as it isn't even out yet and much can still change. Yet, I am critical of the info and actual gameplay videos released.

I'm gonna take you for what you come off as, a moron. Look, you've given me nothing to prove. What has BioWare claimed and not shown or talked about in depth, they haven't talked about Endgame or shown it, what else? I find it ironic that you're GW2 cheering ass (In the wrong forums I'll add) is here talking about fanboism. GG, moron. I have no reason to convince you, I'm offering you information, if you don't like it take your ass back to the GW2 forums. Christ, you can't be this ignorant, can you?...Oh right, mmorpg.com, it's notorious for your type.

Edit: Actually use that brain, learn to research, there are plenty of LEAKED videos that show recent gameplay and map exploration. Or do you need to be spoon fed like the rest?

I wouldn't go that far Kriosis,   the problem with impiro is that he looked over the thread,  but he didn't bother to track down the links at the bottom to view the information.  Anyone with any genuine interest would take 5 minutes to type in something like SWTOR Gameplay into a site we call YouTube,  maybe even sort by date and look at the most recent ones.  Theres more then enough information out there,  but those that want to downplay TOR like to be kept in the dark, and give no quarter on any gameplay features, new, improved, or otherwise.  The basic stance is "We are not impressed".  

 

Lets not bother with trying to police these kinds of people.  We cannot change their opinion,  just point out there misinformation.  

Ignorance is bliss. It's a quality for them, stay ignorant and you can never be wrong because you will never know if you're right.

I hate resorting to insults, but damn, I'm gonna start using this fancy little ignore list.

Maskedweasel really that was low especially considering you are aproving of the behavior of Kriosis which is offensive and out of line. Also the things is that still my point isn't really false at all. Again you people asume that when I say that there is no proof of something, that I automaticly think the oposite. I never did that in any of my posts at all. All i was talking about was hype of GW2 and ToR and how I felt that GW2 deserved more hype because it had more actual footage. That doesnt even say I like GW2 better and ToR less. You peopel read what you want and that is what I pointed out to Kriosis......

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by impiro

I'm gonna take you for what you come off as, a moron. Look, you've given me nothing to prove. What has BioWare claimed and not shown or talked about in depth, they haven't talked about Endgame or shown it, what else?

Huh? I do not get it as you are clearly to filled up with anger to explain yourself. Let me explain myself a little better at least. People worried about the MMO aspects of ToR and BIoware replied to them that they didnt have to worry as ToR was going to have all features a normal MMO would have. So ye that is was I'm talking about kind of.

I find it ironic that you're GW2 cheering ass (In the wrong forums I'll add) is here talking about fanboism. GG, moron. I have no reason to convince you, I'm offering you information, if you don't like it take your ass back to the GW2 forums. Christ, you can't be this ignorant, can you?...Oh right, mmorpg.com, it's notorious for your type.

Really what has me liking GW2 has to do with anything. Where does if even come up in the convo?

Edit: Actually use that brain, learn to research, there are plenty of LEAKED videos that show recent gameplay and map exploration. Or do you need to be spoon fed like the rest?

Thanks for being offensive for no reason again :O. Also no sorry I didn't know about any leaked videos, should I have? I'm really sorry I missed that, I'm an idiot who likes things spoon fed.

Thank you for proving my point, as it is clear you missed it entirely. Maybe you should reread our entire conversation again and see what it was REALLY about. I do not see what my GW2 cheering ass has to do with any of it at all. I have only said that GW2 has hype because it has a lot of gameplay videos showing the game's main features and ToR hasn't.  You are very angry with me clearly and you can't seem to give a good response to my response, while I replied to all the things you said to me in detail.

I feel like I'm being trolled, almost like you're deliberately trying to piss me off.

I am sorry? Really look at your'e prvious post, It was very offensive and hostile. I didn't mean to piss you of at all. You still refuse to got to the context of my original post. You only took a little out of the post and then used that to bash me.

 

The blogger already mentioned that he knew nothing that was going on with TOR and it was an opinion.

I can see right through you and your trolling attempts. Any person that is even a little interested in TOR can find all the info that is needed to make somewhat of a choice to want to play the game or not.

Ye clearly I am trolling. I am not the one falling in hostile behavior and try to motivate my thoughts as clearly as possible. I really didn't know about any leaked videos etc. I am so sorry. And no I am indeed not that interested in ToR since the first videos released. That does not mean I cant talk about it. Especially as this OP blog isn't even that much about ToR but more about BIoware, Ea and Mythic. I was merely talking about HYPE and the possibility that ToR would be incomplete at launch like WAR was. I wasn't a big deal AT ALL. But people here get really angry when you say anything that could be negative, while in fact I never made any definite judgements or claims about the game itself. Read up, you will see.

Even though Bioware has been tight lipped on the full details about crafting and end game content, they have shown much more gamplay than Anet has so far.

It's kinda funny that Anet can get asked the same questions that people ask Bioware and they get a pass when the answer is, we can't talk about that yet, while Bioware gets nothing but hate while doing the same.

Not what I am talking about. It is about the fact that people were worried that ToR wasn't a MMO and Bioware claiming it was. Anet never claimed any of those things so it is not the same thing at all. Also I am not saying that the game will not have the features. Again I was talking about something entirely different in my first post that was taken out of context entirely.

GW2 looks ok, but there is no detailed info on crafting pvp or end game content. How does that differ from what bioware is doing with TOR.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by impiro

But Bioware claimed that this will be a full blown MMO and so far I have not seen anything that proves that. And I'm clearly not the only one with all the ' wrong' ideas people have of this game as a SRPG with chatbox elements (not my words).

I must say you're reaction towards me seemed quite hostile. I have no means to bash TOR, I just go by what I see.

Yawn.

You go by what you see and your gut feeling tells you, while others go by the info and footage available and reports from playtesters who played early versions of the game and demo.

Besides, if you want to carry on with delusions that SW:TOR is a SRPG - frankly, that's the one argument that uninformed posters use that I find most hilarious - then you should take it up into the sticky thread that's already there for.

Apparently the mmorpg.com mods got annoyed enough to create a thread specific for that discussion

Cyphers, you should really try to turn of your raging fanboi defense mechanism that is now jumping on people who don't even say anything negative about the game itself. Like it said, their isn't much gameplay proof of most of Bioware's claims that this game is a full blown MMO with features like crafting, exploring, end game etc. Yes they said its there, but they havn't showed us yet. I have actually read about a lot of the demo sessions, and really would like to kno what you want me to find in them as I clearly missed something. Also you clearly misread me as I never claimed it was a SRPG, I merely stated that a lot of people seem to THINK this. Why do people think this? Because they havn't seen anything that proves the oposite that is why. Again I am not saying anythign negative about the game itself, I am posting in the context of the OP. I am just saying that Bioware hasn't shown everything yet, so I will still resereved about this game untill they do. I see the rational possiblity of Bioware not delivering on their claims like mythic did with WaR. That game made me very critical and made me hold back on high expectations for other new games.

 

GW2 hasn't shown crafting, exploring or end game either.  Should we be asking for proof?

 

SWTOR has shown players playing together and grouping from level 2 onward in the newest videos,  showing everyone in the open world.  We've also seen maps of the entire world,  and have had first hand accounts of how long it took to travel from one end of the map to the other on the smallest worlds, which still took roughly an hour.

I did not see that. But how is this a reaction to what I said exactly?

No game will show us "everything" until we play it on release.  There will always be something we will not see until we play it,  and in the case of TOR even after playing it there will be plenty of content we may never get to see due to our choices and play style.

 

I see this possibilty being much less similar as everything BioWare claims they have released as far as information, is on items that are already in the current build of the game.  Anet says the same thing with their game.  If we call one a liar, why should we believe any of them?

I like the colors you used....but really you don;t need to defend ToR as I am not attacking it. If anything I would be attacking Bioware for not giving the info. GW2 has in fact shown the claims Anet made. ToR hasn't done that for Bioware imo. Crafting etc was just an example. fact remains that Bioware claimed it was a full mmo and I am only talking about the posibillity that Bioware can not deliver on these promises. If you took the time to read in on the OP, the blog claimed that Bioware had nothing to show for except VO. I am keeping this possibility in mind as it sorta happened with WAR and mythic. What is wrong with me doing so? Like I said I not understand the responses I am getting as they are out of context and seem focussed on proving me wrong on the judgements I have for this game, while in reality I am not even talking about what I think about this game.

I think you misunderstand me,  I'm not defending TOR,  I'm posting corrections on your views.  You said BioWare hasn't shown Crafting, End Game, or Exploring,  but you still go on to say Arenanet has shown what they claim - yet we haven't seen these things from Anet and GW2 yet.  This must have been a faux pas on your end, as you must be mistaken to hold one accountable and the other one not.  Correct?  This isn't an opinion,  these are facts on what has or has not been shown.

No you got me all wrong. I am talking about hype in my first post please read up. ToR and GW2 are hyped for different features.... ToR has also received a lot of hate for coming of as a SRPG. Therefor the claim by Bioware that this isn't the case. The whole specifics of crafting etc is not important here, what is important is that people are worried that ToR wont have the MMO features. Anet has shown the features they promised, they havn't talked much about crafting etc. So Bioware made a claim about having features and havn't shown for it yet. Anet never even made the same claim, so it isn't weird that they havn't shown those things.

 

BioWare claims the game is a full MMO,  yet the only things they've shown are - full grouping,  an open world with players running around inside it,  PvP, multiple facets of multiplayer gameplay,  and large explorable worlds.    The original Blog knows very little about what is actually happening on BioWares end.  The "employee" didn't work for BioWare, didn't play the game, and obviously doesn't pay attention to the information because if I were to tell you from my standpoint on what BioWare puts MOST of their emphasis on ... its STORY... NOT Voiceovers.

 I am sorry I missed this info. I honestly am. I actually run by previews given by gamewebsites. I really havn't seen any ingame features you just discribed. So yes in this case, Bioware has shown it. Can you give me a link where I might find this? I am kind of surprised I missed all this.

Most people aren't trying to change your opinions,  but they are voicing theirs.  I am doing neither,  not voicing my opinion or trying to change yours.  I am letting you know that what you are choosing to take an opinion on and what is actually factually being shown are two different things.  We HAVE seen multiplayer gameplay.  We HAVE seen the open worlds with multiple players running around.  We have NOT seen crafting, we have NOT seen extensive exploring, and we have NOT seen much on End Game.  This isn't just for TOR... we haven't seen it for GW2, or RIFT, or TSW.   

The point is that we are talking about the possibility that ToR might end up being incomplete. I have never said what I THINK (aka opinion) about it. I have only stated that it is possible. Also I did not knwo these videos were thesre showing the features you described, so now indeed the chance of Tor being incomplete is less big. The biggest issue here is that I do not have an opinion really. I am just saying that Bioware still hasn't proved anything yet. That doesn't mean that I think that therefore the features might not be there. Im just saying that is possible that the might not be there. However, it seems I indeed am not informed enough so ye I guess that makes my point invalid about Gw2 being hyper is more legit than ToR.

However, the way Cyphers and the other guy approached me was completely out of context....

 

What we do see are many hypocrites that take double standards.  If you don't like the game,  don't like the game,  but don't try and discredit what has already been shown by saying it hasn't been shown.  

Sorry but here you go wrong. I never said I dislike the game. All I did was this:

I said that in a response to someone stating that GW2 was way more OVER hyped than TOR:

GW2 has at least somethign to show for it, while ToR does not. I was wrong clearly, but where do i voice my opinion about the game? I really didn;t knwo there was more footage. Also, I did say that the videos I saw had bad animation, stale combat and limited evironnements. That is no opinion about an enitre game, but about a video showing the game. Also, that opinion about those specific videos are still correct as these videos still excist. The fact is that there are more videos that might contain info that changes my opinion about the earlier vids and might prove me wrong by saying that Anet showed us more than Bioware.

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by impiro

Cyphers, you should really try to turn of your raging fanboi defense mechanism that is now jumping on people who don't even say anything negative about the game itself.

Heh, pal, I could try to refute the flaws in your arguments but I wouldn't know where to start. Well, gonna give it a try anyway but keeping it short. Oh, nice start btw, namecalling me 'fanboi', very often a sign of weakness in someone's argumentation 

1. Please do so.

2 Sorry, but I must admit I do nto post often but do read a lot of the forums. You always jump on anyone being critical and go in full defense mode and most of the time it is totally unnecessary.....

Like it said, their isn't much gameplay proof of most of Bioware's claims that this game is a full blown MMO with features like crafting, exploring, end game etc. Yes they said its there, but they havn't showed us yet. I have actually read about a lot of the demo sessions, and really would like to kno what you want me to find in them as I clearly missed something.

It's there, the information, the footage, the reports. It's insanity to believe SW:TOR will just be a SRPG and not a fullblown MMO, but let's do this differently: you state what a fullblown MMO has, and we'll take it from there, we'll get back to this post in beta near launch and then we'll see how your list compares and how right or wrong you were.

INFORMATION is not proof, BIoware has given us information, yet I havn't seen it INGAME. Good that will be great as I already said I am not saying anything about the game. I am merely speaking about the way Bioware has PROVEN what is in the game and what is not. I am not wrong when everything is there, because I never claimed it wasn't, Again you refuse to read up to the context I posted in.

Also you clearly misread me as I never claimed it was a SRPG, I merely stated that a lot of people seem to THINK this.  

Really? "I'm clearly not the only one with all the ' wrong' ideas people have of this game as a SRPG with chatbox" as you said sounds pretty much like that you believe this to be the case too.

 

(snips the uninteresting part)

WOW, again you prove to be someone who takes things out of context. I;m clearly not the only one was refering to the previous sentence.. I do not think this will be a SRPG at all, I do not think anything. I just havn't seen anything yet, that tells me otherwise. That doesn't me it is not there till I see it, it means I do not know till I see it. Clearly I have missed info though. So what? Is this some kind of contest? Or maybe this wasn't a discussion but a debate?

That game made me very critical and made me hold back on high expectations for other new games.

Yeah, you were another one of those that had high expectations and was thoroughly disappointed with a former game, leading now to the opposite reaction, namely distrusting anything that's being said and shown that sounds too positive.

I'm not doubting at all. I'm just saying it is possible that Bioware wont deliver, I never said I expect this to be the case....

Good for you. I mean it, you should be extra wary and hold your expectations if you know of yourself that you're easily swayed or misled by hype.

Anyway, that's it for me: you'll believe whatever you like to believe in taking your past into account and I'll believe what I like to believe in taking my own experiences and research into account, and we'll see how things will be for real closer to launch and past it. Live and let live, agree to disagree and all that stuff.

See above.....

/back to OP topic again I guess.

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by impiro

But Bioware claimed that this will be a full blown MMO and so far I have not seen anything that proves that. And I'm clearly not the only one with all the ' wrong' ideas people have of this game as a SRPG with chatbox elements (not my words).

I must say you're reaction towards me seemed quite hostile. I have no means to bash TOR, I just go by what I see.

Yawn.

You go by what you see and your gut feeling tells you, while others go by the info and footage available and reports from playtesters who played early versions of the game and demo.

Besides, if you want to carry on with delusions that SW:TOR is a SRPG - frankly, that's the one argument that uninformed posters use that I find most hilarious - then you should take it up into the sticky thread that's already there for.

Apparently the mmorpg.com mods got annoyed enough to create a thread specific for that discussion

Cyphers, you should really try to turn of your raging fanboi defense mechanism that is now jumping on people who don't even say anything negative about the game itself. Like it said, their isn't much gameplay proof of most of Bioware's claims that this game is a full blown MMO with features like crafting, exploring, end game etc. Yes they said its there, but they havn't showed us yet. I have actually read about a lot of the demo sessions, and really would like to kno what you want me to find in them as I clearly missed something. Also you clearly misread me as I never claimed it was a SRPG, I merely stated that a lot of people seem to THINK this. Why do people think this? Because they havn't seen anything that proves the oposite that is why. Again I am not saying anythign negative about the game itself, I am posting in the context of the OP. I am just saying that Bioware hasn't shown everything yet, so I will still resereved about this game untill they do. I see the rational possiblity of Bioware not delivering on their claims like mythic did with WaR. That game made me very critical and made me hold back on high expectations for other new games.

 

GW2 hasn't shown crafting, exploring or end game either.  Should we be asking for proof?

 

SWTOR has shown players playing together and grouping from level 2 onward in the newest videos,  showing everyone in the open world.  We've also seen maps of the entire world,  and have had first hand accounts of how long it took to travel from one end of the map to the other on the smallest worlds, which still took roughly an hour.

I did not see that. But how is this a reaction to what I said exactly?

No game will show us "everything" until we play it on release.  There will always be something we will not see until we play it,  and in the case of TOR even after playing it there will be plenty of content we may never get to see due to our choices and play style.

 

I see this possibilty being much less similar as everything BioWare claims they have released as far as information, is on items that are already in the current build of the game.  Anet says the same thing with their game.  If we call one a liar, why should we believe any of them?

I like the colors you used....but really you don;t need to defend ToR as I am not attacking it. If anything I would be attacking Bioware for not giving the info. GW2 has in fact shown the claims Anet made. ToR hasn't done that for Bioware imo. Crafting etc was just an example. fact remains that Bioware claimed it was a full mmo and I am only talking about the posibillity that Bioware can not deliver on these promises. If you took the time to read in on the OP, the blog claimed that Bioware had nothing to show for except VO. I am keeping this possibility in mind as it sorta happened with WAR and mythic. What is wrong with me doing so? Like I said I not understand the responses I am getting as they are out of context and seem focussed on proving me wrong on the judgements I have for this game, while in reality I am not even talking about what I think about this game.

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by impiro

Originally posted by Kriosis

Originally posted by impiro

ToR on the other hand. has at this moment close to nothing to show for the things Bioware claimes it to be. In fact the videos that are available, show bad animations, stale gameplay and very limited environnements.

I won't get into GW2 because I think it looks boring as hell and this isn't the place to discuss it. BioWare has shown practically everything they said the game would have. The animations have improved greatly after watching the newer videos, stale gameplay? Explain, you haven't played it, so you can't. And limited environment? You can't prove anything you say. Surprise me. How you ask? Prove something for once. Good luck.

Really, you ask me to prove something yet you offer no proof for your own bold statements either.... :S

You're here telling everybody the animations are crap (which they may be to you so nothing to prove here) and then go on to say the gameplay is stale and the environment is limited? Did I tell you they wasn't? No, I asked you to prove what you was saying, I have nothing to prove because I've claimed nothing other then the animations have improved.

Wow, nice inteneded wrong interpertation of my reply! You stated that Bioware has showed nearly everything which is simply not true, that is where I was refering to. It is weird that you claim that animations might be a subjective topic yet stale gameplay does not. Again I go by what I see. The GAEMPLAY videos I saw showed stale gameplay and small enviionnements. With the environnements I was refering to the Bioware statement that there is a huge open world. The gameplay videos I saw didn't show that. I was not saying anything definite about animations, gameplay and enverionnements of this game. Just that the VIDEOS I SAW showed that. I was not saying that the game was going to be like that. I was only talking about the videos and how they NOT show the things that Bioware is claiming. That is the only thing. There is nothing to prove AS I NEVER EVEN SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE GAME ITSELF.

I admit I might have not seen the latest videos, as I do not know about any new videos since the ones I saw a few months back. From those videos the gameplay looked very stale and boring. I am aiming at those playthrough videos were you see Jedi's swinging lightsabers at oneanother. I do not eed a full onhand experience to get and idea of the gameplay, that is were gameplay videos are for. In those videos I only saw very small limited enverionnements. None of the big landscapes that Bioware has claimed to be in the game. If you do have a video, I would really like to see it cause that would make me less worried.

Would be happy to.

Just compare the animations to older videos.

Smuggler Update

Designing the Lightside

Also feel free to look through the planets which is up to 16 I believe. Plenty of screenshots and each one has a video.

http://swtor.com/info/holonet/planets

I watched about 5 of them and none of these videos disprove anything I said and sadly really didn't convinced me. The screenshots contain a lot of artwork and the video's indeed show some nice enverionnements, but still not really wide or open. I see a lot of small rooms and some open environnements that arn't that big. As you look closely they seem open, but you can actually distinguish some borders that could limit the player. Please note that i say THEY COULD BE BORDERs. The thing here is that we can not know how far we can actually go in these environnements

 

Really I would like to see you prove the following statement: "BioWare has shown practically everything they said the game would have". uuhm, ye maybe if you mean VO since that what they have been talking about a lot. But Bioware claimed that this will be a full blown MMO and so far I have not seen anything that proves that. And I'm clearly not the only one with all the ' wrong' ideas people have of this game a a SRPG with chatbox elements (not my words).

I must say you're reaction towards me seemed quite hostile. I have no means to bash TOR, I just go by what I see.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=33345

I scrolled through this and I have no idea what you want me to look at. Really, most info here I already knew from the MMORPG.com articles of ToR. I see alot of info, yet no hard proof of most of it. That is no big deal. I'm not saying it isn't there or anything. Also I still have to see the proof of your claim that everything Bioware claimed is there. The only way to proof this is through gamemplay videos. That is also where my entire post was about which you completely took out of context by making it a hater vs fanboi battle. I am no hater and I do not think this game suck or is going to fail. My post was a reply to a claim that GW2 was more OVER hyped than ToR, which was a stupid statement as GW2 has a lot more actual gameplay footage to PROOF the hype.

This is the problem with you fanbois, you CHOOSE the things to reply to and ignore the rest and take the things you do reply to out of context for convenience. I have no hate for ToR. I do not completely dislike this game as it isn't even out yet and much can still change. Yet, I am critical of the info and actual gameplay videos released.

I'm gonna take you for what you come off as, a moron. Look, you've given me nothing to prove. What has BioWare claimed and not shown or talked about in depth, they haven't talked about Endgame or shown it, what else?

Huh? I do not get it as you are clearly to filled up with anger to explain yourself. Let me explain myself a little better at least. People worried about the MMO aspects of ToR and BIoware replied to them that they didnt have to worry as ToR was going to have all features a normal MMO would have. So ye that is was I'm talking about kind of.

I find it ironic that you're GW2 cheering ass (In the wrong forums I'll add) is here talking about fanboism. GG, moron. I have no reason to convince you, I'm offering you information, if you don't like it take your ass back to the GW2 forums. Christ, you can't be this ignorant, can you?...Oh right, mmorpg.com, it's notorious for your type.

Really what has me liking GW2 has to do with anything. Where does if even come up in the convo?

Edit: Actually use that brain, learn to research, there are plenty of LEAKED videos that show recent gameplay and map exploration. Or do you need to be spoon fed like the rest?

Thanks for being offensive for no reason again :O. Also no sorry I didn't know about any leaked videos, should I have? I'm really sorry I missed that, I'm an idiot who likes things spoon fed.

Thank you for proving my point, as it is clear you missed it entirely. Maybe you should reread our entire conversation again and see what it was REALLY about. I do not see what my GW2 cheering ass has to do with any of it at all. I have only said that GW2 has hype because it has a lot of gameplay videos showing the game's main features and ToR hasn't.  You are very angry with me clearly and you can't seem to give a good response to my response, while I replied to all the things you said to me in detail.