Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by jonrd463

 

 Want proof? What would you do if Star Vault announced tomorrow that there will be permanent underwear? Would that affect your enjoyment of the game?

No actually it wouldn't.  But why stop there?? Why not add maps with little markers above the heads of the NPCs, and glowing dotted lines you can follow to the quest objective, and pink fairies that come and whisk you away to safety as you are about to die, and flying mythical mounts with magic fucking bells that spread joy to all that see them...
 

 

Completely and totally irrelevant. Nudity is cosmetic. It has nothing to do with gameplay. At all. All those things do described do.

It's not irrelevant at all. It's a contributing factor in the overall realistic atmosphere that the game is trying to offer. The whole is the sum of it's parts (and no puns intended here). You make ONE concession, you might as well go all the way and just re-design the game.
 

 

So what you're saying, by using this slippery slope argument as your basis, is that if SV removed nudity, it would adversely affect your enjoyment of the game?

 

what I was trying to ILLUSTRATE with an exaggerative scenario (go back to wikipedia and re-read the definition of a slippery slope fallacy...I was just WAITING for you to try that argument) was that one element of realism is just as important as any other when a collective effect is desired. Every grain of sand contributes to the beach. Yes you could remove one...but why pick any particular one over another? Unless of course you had personal issues with that one aspect of realism.

 

Regardless of whether or not it's a true slippery slope fallacy, your example is most definitely a non sequitir. But that's beside the point. The addition or subtraction of full frontal nudity in a sword and sorcery game has no bearing on the gameplay, except to the extent that it's used to do stupid shit like teabag or naked zergs for the lulz. Neither of which are realistic.

And speaking of realism, why in the hell is that even an issue in a game where you resurrect every time you're killed? If we're to take this realism thing to its logical conclusion, I say when you die in the game, it's permadeath, and you have to start a new character from scratch. That's both realistic and hardcore, but I guarantee you won't see too many people in favor of that.

But again... nudity equating to realism in the game is still complete bullshit. I have more respect for the ones saying outright that they'll teabag and fight with no pants or whatever, because they're at least being honest, instead of pissing in the sky and insisting it's rain.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by jonrd463

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by jonrd463

 

 Want proof? What would you do if Star Vault announced tomorrow that there will be permanent underwear? Would that affect your enjoyment of the game?

No actually it wouldn't.  But why stop there?? Why not add maps with little markers above the heads of the NPCs, and glowing dotted lines you can follow to the quest objective, and pink fairies that come and whisk you away to safety as you are about to die, and flying mythical mounts with magic fucking bells that spread joy to all that see them...
 

 

Completely and totally irrelevant. Nudity is cosmetic. It has nothing to do with gameplay. At all. All those things do described do.

It's not irrelevant at all. It's a contributing factor in the overall realistic atmosphere that the game is trying to offer. The whole is the sum of it's parts (and no puns intended here). You make ONE concession, you might as well go all the way and just re-design the game.
 

So what you're saying, by using this slippery slope argument as your basis, is that if SV removed nudity, it would adversely affect your enjoyment of the game?

Lots of good points brought up. I think it's going to be a long while before a graphical MMO reaches the same flexibility as a MU*, because the technology to allow individual players to dramatically affect a gameworld of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of other players is either non-existent or far too expensive to invest in with too much uncertainty on the return of investment.

I think what we roleplayers are looking for is what I call the "holodeck experience", where we can do whatever we want in a game in any way possible. It'd be nice, but impractical. If a game does one thing role-play-wise, and does it well, it'll will be successful but not widely so. Take EVE for example. Over and over, people say how awesome the roleplay is, but just how varied is the gameplay? Compared to a more mainstream RPG, there's just not a whole lot of variety there, but what IS there is done in such a way that people can immerse themselves in it and have fun.

Originally posted by Scottc

But the money is in the majority who are at level 80 or whatever the cap happens to be, and they want to keep those guys playing the game.

Ah, but more mid-level content would provide incentive for that majority to roll up a new character and level through the new content. I've got a capped toon, and I would jump at the chance to be able to play a new character in order to experience new content. I don't raid or anything like that. I'm pretty much like the person above who said he retires his characters at level max. My style is to try to play each of the available races and classes until I get to max level, and then start over. After about the fourth or fifth time through the same content in WoW, the experience became less of an adventure and more of a chore.

This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.

The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Jon it is a theory of how we came to this present day situation. and interesting. Although a lot of people who didn't came in with the WC2 or WC3 door. (Myself included).

But you could be right.

However the discussion was now, how to breach the equilibrium.

A simple fantasy Lore change doesn't break it. Together KOTOR will need to change core game mechanics of traditonnal fantasy mmorpg's.

An example? Fleet fights, space combat. conquering planets, assault on Death stars, building up your space ship AND avatar skills. Planets that change overtime. Populations growth. Politics included within each planet.

You could be a hero in one planet system and a newbie "non event" in another planet.

Just breaking out of the "kill 6 pigs with the light sabre" mentality here.

The 5 million (subs) question here: who wants to take the risk ???????

 

Sorry... hehe... that's just a point I've been wanting to bring up, and this thread seemed as good a place as any vis a vis WoW.

Your point about not having come in via the other Warcraft games is valid, but I have a theory about that, too. The game comes out and becomes a blockbuster thanks to the established Warcraft fanbase. Blizzard starts raking in the money, which goes into marketing. Their marketing people, obviously good at what that do as we can see, get the game out everywhere. Product placement, celebrity commercials, billboards--- EVERYwhere. Meanwhile, the "Hey, check out this cool game I'm playing" effect is going on. Back before I became jaded, I loved the game. It was easy to pick up and dive right in. This, coupled with the marketing, coupled again with the friend 2 friend spread and before you know it, 11 million+ subscriptions.

But anyway, that's a topic for another thread. I'm quite enjoying the current direction of this thread. :)

Originally posted by Ztekan

 I would go for lotro.

 

The comunity is great on both games , no LOL naabcake talk 

You must have Level_1-9 chat turned off in EQ2. :D I once asked where the good RP spots are on the Antonia Bayle server and got a ton of "lolwat" type answers.

LOTRO, however, is great for people into storytelling RP. Several times, while playing on the Landroval server, I've been in the Prancing Pony during prime time hours, and there would be a dozen or more people hanging out, /smoking their pipes, and just roleplaying out stories that were really great. Not stupid little "I am Winterautumn Moonrainshadow of Mystic Breeze Glen" type tripe, either. These people were coming up with stuff that fit so well into the setting, it could have been written by Tolkien himself. It was great from a RP perspective. Doesn't say much about the gameplay, but hey, people get enjoyment from different things, so...

In all these threads on all the various fora I visit, where the subject of "WoW killing" is brought up, every one of them fails to mention a core reason for the sucess of WoW. The setting has existed for going on 15 years now. The World of Warcraft (that is, the Warcraftverse, not the game) is familiar to many PC gamers who got their start in the early to mid 90's. It dominated RTSes until Starcraft, another Blizzard IP, came along. Even though the lore behind the Warcraftverse was added to, retconned, and molded around new interpretations of old in-game events, by the time WoW opened for business, there was already an established fanbase of millions waiting to get in on the action. Millions of players who were already familiar with the world of Azeroth; who already knew who the major players were; who experienced a form of active gameplay within the setting; and who now eagerly awaited the chance to get into the world as opposed to looking down on it from the bird's eye view of a real time strategy game.

That was a head start that no other MMO could possibly replicate, unless a company takes the time to start their IP small, nurture it, develop a fanbase, and then hand that world over to the fanbase to become a part of. LOTRO enjoys a similar success, but the main difference is that for every Tolkien fan that actively plays computer games, there's probably 1000 more who are literature buffs that have zero interest in gaming. Warcraft got its start in gaming, so there's no disparity in the fanbase.

The only other game I can think of that has this going for it would be SW:TOR. It's got the two KOTORs before it, and the fans that were created by those games. You can bet that at least 50% of the people who enjoyed and have multiple playthroughs of the KOTORs under their belt will be guaranteed sales and subscriptions within the first few months. And then there will be the disgruntled SWG players looking to grab ahold of another SW based MMO. Needless to say, TOR's release will be interesting to observe. Whether or not it enjoys the runaway success of WoW remains to be seen.

I can say, however, that it's going to take something REALLY special to be developed as an MMO with no prior gaming establishment to reach the kinds of numbers as WoW.

Originally posted by puma713

Originally posted by jonrd463

S-turdy Enviroment = The environment is nice except the zones seem small and VERY linear. Much of the environment is there for show and cannot be reached due to invisible walls...ala AOC.

 

There's my dealbreaker. So much for Aion. The one thing I hate more than anything in an MMO is zoning. Hate it with a passion. Give me a coast to coast open world. If developers are so keen to copy WoW, as many people here suggest, then why can't an open world be the one thing they take? 

 

Next game....

 

There ya go!  Take someone's word for it rather than trying it yourself. Very open-minded.

As for what templarga said - I'm not sure he's gotten to the Abyss, where you can fly nearly anywhere.  And in the normal zones, you can only fly short distances, but there are still amazing places to go - and even places you're apparently not supposed to be.

If you're seriously thinking about trying it, check out aionsource.com and ask questions there.  There are people that have played the game there.

I'm just watching from the sidelines and reading news as I stumble upon it. Zones vs. Seamless World is a personal preference. If the game is the second coming of the great prophet Zarkwon in all other respects but still has zoning, I won't play it. It's my choice. You are certainly free to play whatever game you like, and you know what? I won't judge you. Seriously. All I ask is a little of the same courtesy.

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Originally posted by DarkRexx

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Originally posted by andmiller

Originally posted by -Zeno-

Just like every other hardcore game you have tried.

You cried when you got tank rushed in Red Alert.

You created Trammel.

You ruined Mordred.

You quit Shadowbane at release.

You quit AoC after seeing their patches and community.

You laughed at Darkfall for trying.

You made fun of EVE online because it is a space game.

Why try another hardcore game?

 

Wow...another DF and it's players are the hardest post.  Nice.  Another carebears beware post.

I wish DF players wouldn't even mention Shadowbane.  So that us Shadowbane vets don't have to be lumped in with you guys.......

 

I guess I don't understand.  Since players like you are so obviously hardcore and dominant, wouldn't you want the legions of carebear wusses to play with you so you can slaughter them?  Why try to "scare" them away with your tough talk?

 

 

 

I actually consider myself a pre-trammel Ultama Online player that has seen people flock away from all of the hardcore games.  Except one, the blues ruined Mordred by actually playing it, with their level 20's.

Its amusing that everyone immidiatly places the players you dislike into the "DF" group.  Following the corwd, just like good little sheep.  You won't last in MO.

 

You see that part there I underlined? I hate it when people use that stupid cliche', because the only reason they use it is because they heard some villian say it during a cheesy monologue and they think it will make them sound like an awesome loner. I'm sorry to say it doesn't.

The statement "You won't last in MO" also loses any credibility whatsoever, because the way you present the statement makes it seem like you're implying that Mortal Online will be a frag-fest only for the most stalwart and skilled of the hardcore, and that you are awesome enough to judge who will and won't 'cut it'. Since other people have already done an adequate job of proving you are not awesome, I'll move on and say that MO is a game, and that's all it is. 

If someone plays a game like MO or DarkFall, dislikes it and then quits, It doesn't mean that person lacks fortitude or worth, although I'm sure you wish it were that way.  All it means is that said person found thier gaming experience unfufilling and moved on. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

   

 

 

I played a Great Lord in Ultama Online for months after it was added to the game.  I was repeatedly pked and griefed to the point I almost quit.  What saved me from quitting was saying screw it, and started pking players and became a Dread Lord, best decision ever.  How many players said screw it and quit?  Enough to have trammel created, and eventually World of Warcraft.  There are few wolves and plenty of sheep.  Thats why WoW has 11 million players and MO will just be another pvp niche game.

MO will go in the direction of UO pre-trammel, DAoC Mordred, Shadowbane, AoC, and DF.  Niche game that will only retain 40% of its player base or less.  Hell AoC just hit less than 10% of its players (that purchsed the game).

So I will repeat: You, reading this, will quit MO.  I give you 3 months max, most likely you will be gone within a week.

 

That's a reasonable prediction, and is taken much better without the bluster of your original post. Still, it remains to be seen. If MO has a goal of maintaining say 100,000 subscriptions to be profitable, I'm willing to bet 100,000 people will be willing to face the dangers of a FFA PVP game. It still all boils down to the community at large and what they make of the game. It's going to be anarchy at first, but once large guilds establish themselves, some form of player-establish system of law and order emerges, and decent roleplayers start forming, acting out, and spreading some kind of compelling narrative in the game, stability will come. Hopefully, at least. 

Myself, I don't mind being ganked here and there. Comes with the territory. However, if senseless griefing becomes the norm, the only fun will be had by the predators. I'm quite certain there aren't enough griefing asstards out there to sustain a profitible game, so hopefully people will be reasonable.

Note that reasonable does not equal carebear. Kill me, take my loot, and hell, teabag me if that's how you get your jollies. Just do your thing and then move on to the next guy, or I'm going to be forced to decide if my $15 per month is worth having to constantly deal with assholes.

EDIT: That last part is just a general statement, and not directed solely at you, -Zeno-

Originally posted by Zlayer77

HAHAH.... its a swedish company that makes this and we arnt so uptight here up in the northen parts of Europe.

Full frontal nudity dosent chock the avrage sweed one bit I can tell you that.

Actually we often laugh about how some countries, like that big one ( not naming names here) have so mush  censorship when it comes to Nudity. I think its alarming when you live in a place that allows you to have as mush guns as you like, but you get all freaked out when you see a little skin HAHAHA....

Sweden home of the Vikings.... a little Naked Pixle Flesh...Dosent scare US!

The U.S. may be prudish when it comes to nudity, but we're nowhere near as bad as Australia.

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by jonrd463

I question the realism argument. Sure, it's realistic to have a cock n' balls under that loincloth, but just how realistic is it to the next guy? I'm fine working alongside people at my job, knowing (but not dwelling on the fact) that underneath their clothes, they have.... OMG.. genetalia! However, it's not realistic for the guys I work with to run by naked while screaming LOLOLOLO!!!!

 

Like I said, I don't care if the game features FFN or not. It really doesn't matter to me. But don't go touting the bullshit that it's "realistic", since realistically you would be the only one to see yourself naked 99% of the time. You just like it because you can 1) teabag your victims, and 2) roll up a female toon and commence the whacking. You know it's true, so shut up. Now.

 

Bravo. I applaud your juvenile narrow mindedness and generalisations.

...

Fucking realism.

Fucking classic.

Juvenile? Who's being juvenile here? I mean, hey, if you really need to see naked toons running around, knock yourself out. Me, I'll be busy playing the game. As far as killing the nudes, you're damn right I will. Sure, they may not have anything worth looting, but fun will be had by all.

Just stop with the realism mantra. It's complete bullshit and you know it, no matter how you try to rationalize it for yourself.

Far Cry 2 was, I believe, 25 km2. 64km2 means 8 miles per side, assuming a squarish landmass. Oblivion's traversible landmass was, I believe 6 square miles. Just some perspective to consider. I think the starting continent will be a decent size, if the scale is done right. Remember, a gameworld kilometer won't feel like a real world kilometer, if that makes any sense.

I question the realism argument. Sure, it's realistic to have a cock n' balls under that loincloth, but just how realistic is it to the next guy? I'm fine working alongside people at my job, knowing (but not dwelling on the fact) that underneath their clothes, they have.... OMG.. genetalia! However, it's not realistic for the guys I work with to run by naked while screaming LOLOLOLO!!!!

Like I said, I don't care if the game features FFN or not. It really doesn't matter to me. But don't go touting the bullshit that it's "realistic", since realistically you would be the only one to see yourself naked 99% of the time. You just like it because you can 1) teabag your victims, and 2) roll up a female toon and commence the whacking. You know it's true, so shut up. Now.

S-turdy Enviroment = The environment is nice except the zones seem small and VERY linear. Much of the environment is there for show and cannot be reached due to invisible walls...ala AOC.

There's my dealbreaker. So much for Aion. The one thing I hate more than anything in an MMO is zoning. Hate it with a passion. Give me a coast to coast open world. If developers are so keen to copy WoW, as many people here suggest, then why can't an open world be the one thing they take? 

Next game....

Originally posted by Dewm

Originally posted by Unibrow

Originally posted by BwanaKuu

Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN.  If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.

 

 /agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!

What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.

 

While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.

 

I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?

You can't. No matter how much you try to inspire the general good of people, there's always going to be someone to come along and take a big fat dump on it. The only kind of control that can reasonably be put in place are things like rulesets for RP. No l33tspeak names, must always be in character in chat channels, etc. Stuff that comes with a heavy banhammer to exert a little conditioning for the greater good of the community. Other than that, you have to rely on the general game populace. I might be a little more cynical than the average person, but in all my years dealing with people (and I'm no kid by any stretch of the imagination) the one thing you can rely on is someone fucking up the works. It doesn't take very many, either. Coupled with too much of a laissez-faire attitude with the game administrators, all it takes is a handful of douchenuggets to make paying subscribers go "I'm not paying for this shit" and drop out.

Unfortunatly, people suck.

You let a game get between you and your girlfriend.

Details don't matter. The simple fact is

YOU LET A GAME GET BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GIRLFRIEND.

I hope to God she finds someone that will treat her right, who she can flaunt in your face over and over again. You'd deserve it for the simple fact that you.... oh to hell with it. Not even worth repeating.

Originally posted by Scottc

 

How is it a money pit for employees to be playing key NPCs for live events?  Asheron's Call did it with 100,000 subscribers at its peak for something like 5 or 6 years and the game is still alive today, so it must've been profitable, it came out in 1999! 

Let's use WoW as an example. How many servers are there? How many people to make up a team of "actors" for a live event? It adds up. Ever run a business? 

Also, it bugs me that you haven't read any of the other posts in this thread, because you would see that grind isn't required for filler, especially if developer's take advantage of their most numerous resource of players and give them the tools to provide content.  

I have read the thread, and the consensus is that grind is what keeps the subscribers coming back. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just stating a fact. Grind is there to keep people coming back and playing. Period. Make all the judgements about it you want, but good or bad, you can't deny its reason for being there.

Give them the power to control cities and you'll have countless wars and open up doors for mercenary groups, lots of PvP, crafting clans to create supplies and sell them.  Give them the power to create their own cities and that's pretty much brand new content being created by the players, it opens up clans to give "quests" to other players to collect building materials for them, and again opens up even more room for trade.

You won't get an argument from me. I'd play that game. The thing is, not everyone is going to be into sandbox games, so it becomes a question of how you would solve the grind issue in a more PvE focussed game, and that is where my post was coming from. In a level-less, skill-based sandbox game, the subject of "grind" is a moot point.

Grind is filler. It keeps people playing. This has already been well established. The one thing that bugs me is the contention that developers are "lazy" for not including more dynamic features. As of now, the best dynamic features are live events with key NPCs being controlled by the game employees. This is a huge expense if you think about it. People have to be paid to play these roles, the planning has to be done, and implementation has to go off without a hitch. For a one-of event, this is a money pit. A more cost effective solution would be dynamic quest generation where you have some set types of quests, but the goals and paths to completion vary from player to player or group to group depending on some random variables in the programming. This way, it removes the themepark somewhat, and a player can rest assured that once he or his group alone has killed Bob the Tormentor of Village #152, Bob won't respawn for the next guy or group to come along and kill him.

That might not solve the need for grinds, but if done well, there could be more and varied quests like that to be filler to take some of the emphasis off the grind. One other thing I wish would happen is the removal of vendor trash. Make every item you get off a mob be useful in crafting. That way, instead of amassing piles and piles of useless gnoll spittle that sells for 2 copper a pop, you could get gnoll teeth that can be used to make jewelry, or something along those lines. At least you'd have something more to show for the endless waves of foozle genocide you have to go through to get that one quest drop. (the alternative being a drop rate of over 50% so you don't have to take forever to get said quest drop, but we already understand the reason for the grind being there.)

They're running out of lore to draw from. So far, all the expansions and patch additions have had some kind of basis in lore that was solidified in Warcraft 3 and TFT. Arthas was the last of the big baddies, besides Deathwing I believe. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Deathwing is a boss yet). Once the Arthas encounter goes live, then what? Someone mentioned the Emerald Dream as the basis for the next expansion. I haven't read anything official on that, but if so, it's the last place to see in the established WoWverse, unless there are plans to come up with completely new lore to keep the game going.

In any case, WoW is a HUGE game, both in content and subscription base. The momentum can't last forever, and it will close eventually. Perhaps this will happen when Blizzard releases official information on their new MMO. You might see a resurgence in numbers for a time, as people assume it will be closed, just so a last hurrah can be experienced.

It's all speculation on my part, of course. Perhaps the game will live on on a smaller scale when the next big thing (big enough to truly take on the behemoth, that is) comes along, and Blizzard is down to just enough subs to pay for the equipment and support staff.