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All Posts by jonrd463

All Posts by jonrd463

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477 posts found

Yeah yeah yeah, B2P, stats tweaked, dungeons tweaked, blah blah blah...


I want to know about future expansions and opening up the world a bit. I want to see ancient Vvardenfell.

Originally posted by Scalpless

It always annoys me when people call Fallout 3 "Fallout". It's like "the Skyrim series".

It's "The Elder Scrolls series".

It's "Fallout 3".

You've never even played Fallout. Though I suppose if Fallout 3 - one of the simplest, dumbest RPGS of recent years - is too complex for you, you wouldn't be able to get through Fallout's first cave.

Ah yes... This reminds me of a conversation some fellow Fallout fan friends of mine had when Bethesda first announced it bought the IP. "Great. Now people are going to assume this is the definitive Fallout, declare the franchise as shit, and not even consider the brilliance of the first 2 games."

Guess it's come full circle now.

Originally posted by Octagon7711
Game had one the best starting areas I've ever played. 

Yes it did! First time I played through it, I was in love. Second time, that love started fading. Third time, I was just waiting for it to be over.

There was no fourth time for that very reason. Gimmick starting areas just don't work if there's only one of them.

More evidence of the current generation's illiteracy.

Next up: Ow! My Balls! Brought to you by Carl's Jr.

Originally posted by jeffxsee

Working in the games industry, I've noticed that people who PVP or PK don't spend  as much money on free-2-play games as people who enjoy PVE. As a result, you will see more complaints and critical feedback from PVE'rs. PVE / casual PVPers will go on forums and address their concerns, submit tickets threatening to quit, and complain about how they cannot enjoy content due to the PKers, griefers and contested zones where PVP is allowed.  Since developers and publishers rely on those players who charge more. they will either remove FFA pvp system, make it extremely difficult (npc patrols), or have extreme punishment to control the PVP(item destruction, de-level). Eventually, the harsh systems will just eliminate world PVP which is the intended band-aid fix.

Honest  PVPers will always complain about balancing skills and classes when in reality, MMOs with unique classes and skills cannot be perfectly balanced. If developers attempt to balance, people will just rage that they're desired class is getting nerfed or they will just quit the game.

This brings to mind something else that marks the departure of the RPG aspects from MMORPGs. In the classic sense, the classes complimented eachother, and balance was achieved by having a well rounded party. Whether tabletop, singleplayer a la Baldur's Gate, or MMO, the weakness of one class was bolstered by the strength of another. As a group, the party is a force, but the separate elements, not so much.

Unfortunately, similar factors that have lead to the influx of lulz-seeking griefers have also contributed to the lack of grouping nowadays. Aside from individual time constraints each player must face due to real life, I can speak from experience that the overall quality of player in terms of sociability has contributed to a lack of desire to group. I'm not talking about general social awkwardness. Hell, I freely admit to being a nerd, and therefore socially awkward. I'm talking about maturity levels. One can only take so many dick and fart jokes before it becomes ridiculous. These are likely the same types of people that shit on roleplayers, even having the gall to call roleplayers in a roleplaying game nerds as an insult. Mind boggler, that one.

So more often than not, you'll find people just wanting to go it alone or with real life friends to maintain the quality control of the group. For the loners, it's too bad if you want to play something squishy, because you might as well wear a sign over your head saying "Kill me! I'm easy!" Enter the predator, and the cycle continues. Squishy gets tired of the crap and leaves. So on, and so on.

Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Then you agree general-zod :)

I agree with owpvp games being niche... after all, the amount of wolves in the world is scarce >:)


But pvp players think that open pvp zones should be more popular - Bladestrom

I do not agree

  should qualify then, the pvp players that want to hunt in zones marked for PVE, wolves need fresh meat constantly, im looking at you high sec zone in eve.

Regardless of the stereotypes about pvpers there are a great number of us who do consider ourselves gladiators receiving great honor fighting and winning against the odds. People seem to think i'm saying there are no situations where a player has preyed on the weak and innocent... i'm not saying that.

When I said there are less wolves out there i'm speaking about the players that find themselves in situations where the attacker is more powerful or the attackers outnumber the player but he still tries to figure out how a way to overcome instead of giving up. 


No doubt that's true...I wish we might have more PvPers like you.  But, sadly, that kind of PvPer is getting rarer ever day.

Frankly, the PvPer that tends to be en vogue these days is some tool with a name like xXDEATHDEALERXx who swarms into a game with his BF4 clan with the aspiration to post grief videos with 10,000+ hits on regard for the RP environment.  No respect for context.

The dirty secret to PvP that lam0rs exploit is the notion that the less a PKer cares about what's going on, the better.  Somebody said before how the problem is that too many people take what pixels do too seriously.  Actually, the problem I see is that too many--far too many--don't take the pixels on the screen seriously enough, which is why PvP has basically degenerated into a quest for l0lz and grief-reactions.

Because things like suicide ganking in EVE couldn't happen nearly as regularly as what it does, if characters mattered, and the pixels represent more than pixels.  People don't waste billions of in-game currency to engage in pointless ganking unless they are playing for meta-motives, like causing emotional distress to people.  The problem is that the pixels DON'T matter to most of these new PKers...the real-world grief reactions and YouTube videos matter.  The smack in forums are the things that matter.  Grief, we might say, is a reward for powergamers; and the games have shown that you can get those rewards, just so long as they can give up any pretense of playing the game that's given.

That's why we need PvPers to start investing more of themselves in the game fiction; PvPers need to buy into the lore, their characters and their motives, from a world standpoint.  If not, then all we'll have are cheap l0llogaggers, and people jumping ship because of the lameness of it all.

That was a perfect summation of the problem. It's all about the meta benefits-- the youtube lulz and forum infamy. Honestly, I think part of the problem is the homogenization of the genres. Since games are being made with bigger and bigger budgets, publishers naturally want a wider reach for income. So, they'll throw out the competitive side of things outside of the game context while sweeping under the rug the very idea that, hey, try to act with some honor here.

I appreciate PVP players like General-Zod and wish more would have that attitude, but as you say, the real wolves out there care not one whit for the game, its lore, and the community of the game no more than as a source for lulz. It does get old, and it does drive off the players who just want to roleplay in the world they've paid money to be in.

Originally posted by General-Zod
Originally posted by jonrd463
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by General-Zod

A player that tends to his garden in a pvp zone or during war time must know getting PK'ed is a possibility therefore, no sympathy is given to poor decision making.

Players that make comments like "Look at this scrub" while engaging in a 4v1 is expected because they are cowards who would otherwise keep their mouths shut if the situation warranted an opportunity to lose.

A player that isn't looking for a fight must take the necessary precautions to avoid the fights instead of putting themselves in confrontational situation and wishing and hoping NOT to be engaged ... it doesn't work like that.

Exactly.  The gardener made the poor decision of playing the game in the first place.  If he/she wants to tend to a garden in peace, he/she should find a sandbox game without non-consensual PvP and play that instead.  Non-consensual PvP games are designed specifically for gankers and people who do not like that playstyle should play other games.

So you're saying that if a game offered gardening as a viable leveling class or tradeskill, people shouldn't play it?

And to General-Zod (kickass name, btw), what if the game is open PVP with no safe zones? Is a player expected to build a fortress just to protect a small patch of land or that griefers should be able to raze that land with impunity?

(forgive me for the lateness, i'm at work)


I believe the number one issue with owpvp games is no tangible punishment for the pk'er. Another problem is there isn't enough tools for the player to properly defend  homesteads, houses or forts from attackers. Structures are so hard and time consuming to build yet so easy to tear down.

A resolution for this all depends on the design of the game... 

Completely agreed, and thus the entire premise for the OP :D

I'm surprised no one's commented on the idea of permadeath as an ultimate punishment for bad in-game behavior. As the discussion has unfolded, it seems to have focused on the idea of player behavior being the reason why things are the way they are, but what if the game had a system that acted somewhat as an advocate for the griefed player?
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by General-Zod

A player that tends to his garden in a pvp zone or during war time must know getting PK'ed is a possibility therefore, no sympathy is given to poor decision making.

Players that make comments like "Look at this scrub" while engaging in a 4v1 is expected because they are cowards who would otherwise keep their mouths shut if the situation warranted an opportunity to lose.

A player that isn't looking for a fight must take the necessary precautions to avoid the fights instead of putting themselves in confrontational situation and wishing and hoping NOT to be engaged ... it doesn't work like that.

Exactly.  The gardener made the poor decision of playing the game in the first place.  If he/she wants to tend to a garden in peace, he/she should find a sandbox game without non-consensual PvP and play that instead.  Non-consensual PvP games are designed specifically for gankers and people who do not like that playstyle should play other games.

So you're saying that if a game offered gardening as a viable leveling class or tradeskill, people shouldn't play it?

And to General-Zod (kickass name, btw), what if the game is open PVP with no safe zones? Is a player expected to build a fortress just to protect a small patch of land or that griefers should be able to raze that land with impunity?

Originally posted by DEAD.line
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Four0Six

Don't like FFA PvP, don't play the games (few) that have it, there is plenty of other options to play.

Well, yes, that's exactly what people have done. The reason OW PvPers continue to cry is because those players did in fact find something else to play. Which put the OW PvPers in a place where very few games cater to them and so they're upset that more people don't want that playstyle.

What they want are victims. They don't actually want to cater to "carebears" as the ignorant call them, they want people who aren't looking to pvp at all times so they have someone to gank.

Notice the massive popularity of PvP games. LoL, Dota2, SC2, FPS games. Who do you think is playing those games? Yeah, many many "carebears". The truth is, most of us love PvP and we engage in it regularly. But the vast majority have repeatedly made it clear (by voting with their wallets) that they don't want "PvP" that involves lopsided encounters.

Tell that to DayZ/Arma, Planetside 2, and even GW2's WVW and ESO's Cyrodiil.

"But those aren't open world pvp, so it doesn't matter because of reasons".

The thing with those games is that players can opt in, and out in a way. OWPVP is simply pvp that happens without being zoned off the world in the traditional RVR/BG. We just don't have any that does it. Again, it doens't mean forced, it's a matter of game design. It's like saying owpvp can't be faction based and must be FFA.

As for the whole victim mentality, there lies the issue. Players look at being ganked, not even griefing, as some horrible experience they can't deal with, when it's just, again, a bunch of pixels.

Seriosuly, if players get "ganked", aka killed, by a bunch of mobs they're cool with it, but if a single players pk's them one single time, a sh**storm starts. I just don' get why.



Killed in context is one thing. A player decides to run a trade route through dangerous territory knows he's taking a risk. A player tending to his garden who is suddenly attacked by a zerg of PKers saying crap like "Look at this scrub!" is a whole other deal.

Mobs are a known risk that are relatively easy to work around. The same unpredictability of human players that makes faction v. faction engagements so fun also, by default, gives the PKer an advantage over someone who isn't out to start a fight.

Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Games are entertainment products. If people are not having fun, they complain. Games are not supposed to be worlds, not to mentioned realistic ones.


Not true.


Some games are meant to be worlds. The problem is when these types of game are played by people that only see them as entertainment products. When a game is design to be a living world it need people to play it as such. But when people treat it just like a game it is ruined.

The main problem I see with most MMO's today is that they are designed to be entertainment products rather then worlds which means they feel fake, lifeless, and bland. And people that accept fake, lifeless and bland worlds are paying for them.

I would go so far as to state that designers have the best intentions when designing MMO's to make them feel as real as possible and like a 'real world' but because they are also a business are hampered in doing so. Given freedom I would bet on most designers would try and get as realistic as resources could allow.

The problem then would be getting people to play the game as a real world simulation rather then as they do now, some throwaway 5 minutes piece of entertainment where they don't have to have any responsibility or care for others. 



Both points are true. Some games are meant to be worlds, but for the purposes of entertainment. Always for the purposes of entertainment. If it were just to live in a world, period, I would submit the person with that perspective might want to consider counseling to find out just what the root of his disassociation with real life is.

But regarding that world, it needs balance. As I said in the OP, there is always room for PK, and always room for carebears. You just can't convince many of the players that there's also a time and place, instead of the Pavlovian reflex of "ENEMY SIDE! KILL!"

Originally posted by Beatnik59

This is a good post on the part of the OP, who is trying to find solutions to the problems that we share.

My thought on open world PvP, with or without full looting, is that it requires a kind of player we haven't seen in a long time: a kind of player who puts the integrity of the game first, even when it means giving up some kind of advantage.  And, honestly, both so-called "gankers" and so-called "carebears" are guilty of not adhering to this principle.  Both sides, I say, need to stop that kind of foot-stamping towards different play styles and different ways to have fun, if we are ever going to get something more interesting than WoW to play.  Instead, we ought to figure out what each side wants, and what each side is willing to do to get what we all want.

So, my question is, what are so-called "gankers" willing to submit to in order to have open-world PvP?  Are they willing to adhere to roleplaying conventions (OOC and IC protocols)?  Are they willing to submit to item decay?  Are they willing to submit to full travel?  Are they willing to submit to the suspension of disbelief and the lore?  Are they willing to refrain from alt buffers and bots?  Are they willing to submit to an open-guild policy, where the vetting is based on RP considerations, and not other things (TS/vent use?  Statistical proficiency in class, etc.?)  If not, then there's really no "carrot" for other playstyles, who are trying to justify why they should submit to the "stick" of ganking.

What is offered here by jonrd463--and I applaud him for it--is a call for us to find a way to make FFA PvP work again.  However, in my experience, this can't be accomplished through game mechanics or design features.  This can ONLY be accomplished if we can regain, and foster within ourselves, some of that inner discipline and inner responsibility to make the game work for all.

We have to take responsibility for the integrity of the game, and not just take responsibility for the power of our "toons," clans and guilds.

You hit the nail on the head. A lot of the problem stems from the lack of respect for the RPG part of the MMORPG. I don't care what flavor of RP a person is into, teabagging the body of a victim while spamming "#rekt" in general chat are in no way, shape, or form in keeping with a character in a fictional universe.

Originally posted by Boneserino

This is just another PvP wet dream you have here.   And this is not really a new take.    Any time you assume that players in a game will behave rationally or according to a ruleset, then you are being naive.    Its simple enough to talk about games like this.   But the dearth of open sandbox games speaks volume for how difficult it is to put into practice.

Basically you are saying " 10 free ganks and after that you lose everything, you naughty boy! "   And somehow naively, you think that this makes everything  peachy in an open world PvP game?


Here is what I see happening:

-The ganker takes his 10 free ganks,  has a good chuckle and then either rolls a new toon, or says, screw this,  this game sucks, I quit.

-The farmer, after being ganked for the tenth time and losing everything,  says the same thing.   I quit, this game sucks.


How is this fun for anyone?



You raise good points. The scenario was really just a longwinded basis for asking "What do games need to do differently to satisfy the desires of the greatest range of play styles, with regard to PVP?" I created the hypothetical situation to describe something that could have meaningful consequences for the bottom barrel PVP scum that ruin games in just the way you described.  I had considered using 5 instead of 10.

The fact is, rarely does a ganker have to suffer the same level of consequence as the ganked. Especially if the ganked is someone who spent all his time, for example, raising crops to create trade goods to sell, while the ganker powerlevelled all his combat skills for the sole purpose of PKing. The ganked, in this case has everything to lose.

Games don't do meaningful consequences. Even ArcheAge's trial system is a joke, and the jail is pretty much a game within the game. It would be like sending people to serve a sentence in Disney World.

Games rely too much on the good sense of players, and that's the one thing many players lack. There's no grey area with PVP. It is always about player killing. In fact, the very acronym PVP should really be wiped from the MMO lexicon and replaced with just PK, because PVP could apply to diplomatic strategy. It's a rare occasion that opposing players should meet in the field in a open PVP game and both walk away from the encounter whole.

Instead, it plays out almost like it's an instinct. Just earlier today, I was watching a Twitch stream from Trion showcasing travel options in ArcheAge. In one part, one of the hosts spawned a farming tractor that just so happened to be on the opposite faction of the area they were in. Immediately, within seconds, some people starting wailing on it like a yellowjacket on a Coke can, for no other reason than because it was there. There was no threat. It wasn't an implement of war. It's FARMING EQUIPMENT, and yet those players felt the need to attack it because fuck whoever owned it.

That mentality is so pervasive in PVP games that I don't think there will ever be a situation where players will have the good sense to establish basic rules of engagement and decorum on the battlefield.

I take from your post that you may have assumed I'm a PVP guy trying to find a way to squeeze random ganks out of hapless non-combat characters. I hope this clears that up some.

This is going to be tl;dr for some people. If that is the case, just move on. You gain nothing, nor do you add anything significant to the conversation by oh-so helpfully informing me it's too long and you did not read it.

With ArcheAge's Alpha going on, I've been reading the same old PVP/Carebear arguments that crop up and are pretty much a mainstay here, and I've had these thoughts running through my head for some time. I had some free time and was finally able to put them to text, so here it goes.

I think it starts with a designer's vision. Since I do not claim to read minds, allow me to examine this as if I was the designer and build my case from that perspective. Suppose I have an idea for a sandbox MMO that has all the features people want. Since I am partial to the fantasy setting, imagine it something like a combination of Darkfall, ArcheAge, and Ultima Online, along with borrowed gameplay systems from golden age SWG. It's a game where you can be anything, do anything, and play however you want. There will be PVP with full loot.

My intent is for people to immerse themselves into the world; to really roleplay it as if they are a human, elf, dwarf, whatever in this vast fantasy setting, respecting that there is a society that will develop. Sure, there will be the bandits, knaves, and general bad actors in the mix, but even they get into the spirit of things. There will be a time for cruelty and a time for mercy. Diplomacy amongst the various player factions would be just as viable as all out war in solving conflicts. Crafters would have a home in this game. Fishermen, merchants, loremasters, sellswords, and just regular tradesfolk are all roles people could easily play, as the game would be set up to allow for that kind of freedom. Obviously, there would be the magic users, archers, warriors, brawlers, thieves, clerics-- the usual suspects among traditional roleplaying classes. But these too would be open and customizable.

Once the game gets into Alpha, press releases and previews would be issued. Hype would start to develop. Forum posts saying things like "All I've ever wanted in a game is to live in a world and do whatever I wanted with freedom." would appear. Theorycrafting would start up as more and more details were released. Guilds of all types would already start to form in the forums, including adventurers, traders, crafters, mercenaries, etc. People would start to wonder if there would be roleplaying servers, and I would state in no uncertain terms that the game itself is for roleplaying, so no need for a dedicated server. I would assure those folks that the game is marketed specifically for them.

This would ignite the usual carebear vs. PKer arguments, and I would assure the PKer types that yes, there is PVP, but the hope is that players would keep with the spirit of the setting and the roles they are playing. As a designer, I would start to feel a little apprehension at this point, but development would continue.

There would be no alpha access. Instead, an open beta would start and go for about three months or so, giving players ample time to break the game to squash bugs and glitches over a wide range of PC builds and configurations.  
Player reviews start to trickle in-- "Great game! I love the freedom!", "Game's pretty good, but it needs work in _________. Will see how things go through beta.", "PVP is awesome! Me and my guild was out in [X area] and had an all out battle with another guild. Intense!", "I love how the crafting is done. I've already set up a shop in [Anytown] and making sweet profits.", "Sooo many RP opportunities. The tavern atmosphere is great. It reminds me of how I imagine the Prancing Pony or Inn of the Last Home!", "Fucking carebears will ruin this game.", "Fucking PVPers will ruin this game."

At this point, the problems from my point of view become apparent. Those who are getting into the game world, getting immersed in their characters and truly roleplaying are generally having a decent time. Those with the extreme points of view of "NO VIOLENCE EVER!" or "WAAAAUUGHHHH!!!!" cannot seem to shake their need to be meta. On the one hand, the game is supposed to represent a world where violence can and will happen, but on the other, the intent is that people may want to try to talk themselves out of a situation with diplomacy, and neither side of the extreme is willing to budge. The true "no violence, PERIOD!" carebear types aren't willing to try to take prudent steps to provide the most basic protections for themselves, and the sociopathic "All PK, all the time!" types aren't willing to entertain non- or at least less-violent approaches, and want all limitations on their ability to kill whoever, whenever, wherever removed from the game.
The flaw here is not limited to the game itself, but also the players-- at least the extremes.

Now let me digress here for a moment to examine why we, here in the real world, live in what is mostly a civil society. We have laws and customs that guide us throughout our lives. Generally speaking, we do not kill, rob, or terrorize because societal mores and laws say that one does not do these things, because loss of freedom, property, and in the more grievous instances, life can be given as punishment for crimes. Sure, crimes are committed every minute of every day, and more often than not, the criminal is brought to justice, with only a fraction of criminals ever truly being able to get away with it. These are real, visceral consequences, and are enough to deter a society from sinking into anarchy.

The problem with MMOs is there is no real deterrent to bad behavior. And by bad, I mean wholesale ganking of a non-combatant, or pursuing, attacking, and killing another player out of any sort of roleplaying context, such as a state of war existing among guilds and factions, ESPECIALLY if the pursued has made every gesture of appeasement possible from straight up diplomacy to "Here, take my wallet, just do not kill me!"

One argument I've heard defending that sort of behavior is "Yes, but it's a dangerous world out there, and there are people who kill for fun." True, but proportionate to the game population, and the statistical likelihood that you would run into them are far, far greater than this dangerous world we live in. Few of the extreme PK types ever actually roleplay their characters, and it's usually just an attempt to dominate another person for the sheer hell of it. Maybe they had a crappy day and want to take it out on someone. The problem I see is that sort of stress relieving activity is perfectly fine in an FPS game, where it's kill or be killed from the outset, but in a RPG where the game gives a person the ability to play a peaceful farmer? Not so much. The extreme PKer just sees them as fish in a barrel.

I make the distinction "extreme PKer" because there is nothing wrong with PVP/PK in general, as long as its in keeping with the setting of the game, and not someone's bitter, rage-induced banging of a Doritos grease coated keyboard. This is something the extreme carebears need to understand as well. Now, I've used the term "carebear" quite a bit here, and I understand that it's usually thrown out as an epithet. For purposes of clarity, my definition of a carebear is someone who not only is averse to violence, but is as pathological in their desire to remove violence from all players' gameplay as the PKer is of removing their limitations for wholesale slaughter.

So, back to my game idea, my solution would be similar in spirit to ArcheAge's trial system, but have hefty consequences in line with "an eye for an eye". After an arbitrary amount of player kills against non-combatants (would be flagged as such by their role, e.g. "Farmer", "Merchant", etc.), and those who are not in a state of guild/faction war with the PKer, the offender would be brought to trial and stripped of all their belongings as restitution, divided in terms of monetary value to the victims. I like ten as a good round number. Let the PKer get their kill on to a point before having to suffer the consequences, but make those consequences really hurt. Which brings me to the second set of ten kills of non-combatants which would end in a trial with a permadeath sentence.

This way, the psychopathic ganker type would still be able to get a limited amount of their gank on, the carebears would still have to take steps to figure out protection for themselves, but maybe efforts would be made by the players to moderate the more extreme behavior, lest that counter tick off kill number ten or twenty and they potentially lose it all.

Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by DKLond

I'm sad to say that I'm underwhelmed.

But it's key to note that much of that is about me and how I'm exhausted with the MMO genre in general. Also, with each new MMO - they seem to all have their own improvements to the genre that I find myself missing in others.

ArcheAge has an absolutely fantastic feature-set, let me put that out there right now. The amount of stuff you can do is simply amazing and finally seems like an evolution of the old Ultima Online concept that I used to consider the core of the MMO genre.

That has all but faded with the way themeparks completely dominate the genre, and though AA is clearly not a pure sandbox, it's enough of a sandbox to keep that part of me occupied, if I liked the rest of the game.

Sadly, the themepark aspect of AA is extremely underwhelming, and I'm finding the questing dull and uninspired. I despise the way mobs are all over the place - but don't seem to do anything except stand around or walk in very limited patterns. I know it's par for the course for sandboxes - but it takes me out of the game.

Another thing I find very disappointing is the lack of open world dungeons. This game would have been the perfect version of Vanguard - except that it seems to have nothing interesting to find in the open world. Sure, you can find resources to harvest and the occasional rare spawn, but that's about it. What good is an open world without meaningful exploration?

Then there's the art style and overall atmosphere - which I find nauseatingly upbeat and juvenile. I'm not a fan of dark, dark, dark either - as I prefer a balance of moods and atmosphere. But if I'm going to take a world seriously, it has to have compelling lore and plausible characters populating it. Lord of the Rings Online had a fantastic world, for instance.

I'm a big fan of PvP - but this game seems set up to be all about group PvP. I'm not anti-social - but I often prefer to play alone, and I don't enjoy feeling forced to group to enjoy the game. Now, I haven't played it enough to be sure - and it's mostly based on the design that I've been researching. But it doesn't seem like any solo PvP player would be of use and since it's not full loot - there's really nothing much to gain as an incentive. You can loot packs of resources, I guess - but I'd lose that in a second in such a group oriented environment.

Then there's the engine itself, which while clearly capable - is just not working for me when it comes to player created content. Due to the unpredictable nature of player content - the engine has to load it moments before you're upon it, which creates massive pop-ups all over the place. This is jarring and not at all immersive. One advantage of Ultima Online was the tilebased 2D image approach, which meant everything was in memory and rarely "popped up" as such.

The world design is also lacking, based on the ~7-8 areas I've seen so far. Not enough to set them apart - and they seem way too empty and sparsely populated with unique content. The towns are underwhelming and even the biggest ones seem almost pointless except as quest/crafting hubs.

I could go on and I know this is coming off as very negative. I'm sorry about that, and I can only re-iterate what I said at first, that I'm probably just tired of the genre in general.

It has the basic structure of an AMAZING MMO - but the actual content is very, very underwhelming.

If I'm going to live in a world - which, to me, is the ultimate desire to have in an MMO, the world itself has to be compelling.

AA is just not, sorry.




And yet you praise Eso and that game suffers from all the things you claim to dislike about AA. Can anyone really take you seriously or not see this as a stealth troll thread, are you really in alpha if so I'll meet you in game.

Translation: "I think you're stupid. Wanna fight?"

OP, some of your views about the game ring true with my own, however, I'm still leaning on sticking with it for now. But as you've said, it's a subjective thing. Unfortunately, some people translate subjective opinions as a direct assault on the size of their member and want to get violent over it. (see above).

Worth is subjective. I got it and don't regret it. Your experience might be different.

But for those who don't understand why we'd do it.... well, look at it this way: I could easily blow $150 within the first hour or two of a night on the town, and what am I left with? A hangover? Some cow in my bed who looked much better after 4 drinks? With this, I've got early access to a game I've been anticipating for the last 3 years, and hours upon hours of entertainment. Compared to a night out, this is a much better value. And the best part, since the game has already been live for Korea and Russia, is that the only thing alpha about it is the incomplete translation of stuff like cut scenes and NPC greetings. No game-breaking bugs, at least for me. So it's not like I'm constantly glitching out and paying for the privilege of telling Trion about it.

I bought the $150 pack, but my original reason is... well, admittedly a bit trolling. I read all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how it was a ripoff and how people who buy these things are "part of the problem", and I thought to myself "Hmm... People get mad over the dumbest things." So, I intended to buy it and then brag about it so I could sit back and revel in all the irrational hate thrown my way.

Only problem is that since I got it, all my free time has been spent playing it. On the surface, it's not all that special. Tab targeting (which I don't mind, but other people seem to get all riled up about it), and a quest hub style of get to village, do 3 or 4 quests, move to the next, repeat. Admittedly, I'm only level 14, and I hear it opens up as you move forward. I'm already seeing signs of that, so I'm optimistic. Plus, other aspects of the game are slowly being revealed to me, like a trading system that's somewhat reminiscent of EVE, though perhaps not as deep. Acquire resources in one area, transport them to a high demand area and sell for a profit-- stuff like that.

I'm pretty optimistic, and think this game is going to turn out pretty special. I'm having fun with it, at least.

So much angst over how other people spend their money. I was going to go with a cheaper package and just wait til Beta, but I'm seriously considering the $150 package, just because it irrationally pisses people off for some reason, and to me, that increases the entertainment value.
I'm not that worried about the free month kerfluffle, since I piss away $15 practically every day like its chump change. I realize students and others on fixed incomes see it differently, so I can understand the concern. My problem with the game is the visibility of the login name with every character. Until ZOS fixes that huge problem, I'll be holding off on pissing my $15, along with the $60 box price, away in their direction.

OH MY GOD! People have jobs!

Time for a lynch mob!

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