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All Posts by SnarlingWolf

All Posts by SnarlingWolf

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Um.................................................................

 

Did you read the caption under that before doing your typical misinformation post about how much better F2P is doing?

 

It says: "Top 10 online PC titles based on estimate worldwide, free to play earnings for 2013. WoW and The Old Republic are primarily subscription based titles, but also generate revenue through the sale of micro-transactions."

 

This is a list specifically limited to online (read multiplayer) PC only titles and how much they make on their F2P side. This means all of the WoW subs aren't added in (nor the SWtOR subs). It also means no console games, no mobile, no social browser games etc.

 

In other words there is absolutely no correlation to be drawn with that data to compare P2P to F2P. So, as usual, you misrepresented information in your attempt to convince everyone that F2P is the only right choice.

 

Now if only I knew why you made a point of doing that instead of normally discussing things.

Originally posted by Nephaerius
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Here is the thing though; unless we put on our tinfoil hats and argue that the companies running these freemium games are all lying to their investors and the rest of the world, we have to take them at their word when they tell us that those who do spend money are spending enough that their average revenue per player is actually higher than fifteen dollars a month after going freemium.  If that is true, why would subscription only systems ever become dominant again?

Do you have links to any high up exec saying "Our average revenue per user has increased with F2P?" because I don't think I've actually ever heard that in my life.

 

I could see someone saying that "Due to the increase in players, our revenue has increased to a level that is higher than the average revenue per player at our old subscriber user base."

 

That is the gist I've taken away from most of the actual talk from execs about their change to F2P. That they get a lower money per user average, but they get far more users which if they get enough extra users they exceed the subscription money even with the lower average.

 I happen to know Craig Alexander, worked for EA, Sierra, etc. made Earth and Beyond and probably many other games folks love.  Anyway he is responsible for DDO and Lotro going F2P.  He told me personally that both games have more subs post F2P than prior and have made more revenue.  Those were the first 2 Western MMO's to demonstrate the F2P model's success and you saw everyone else follow suit from there.  If it actually was not more profitable most companies would not be doing it. 

The reason it is so profitable is not because of whales or anything of the sort.  The reason is because it actually appeals to EVERY demographic of consumer.  I can spend $0-Infinity dollars a month. That covers a huge range of consumers.  With the sub model you lose every customer who would have spent $1-$14/mo on your game as well as all the extra revenue you get from each user that pays $16+ per month.  It's pretty simple economics that F2P is and will continue to be more profitable simply because it captures a wider range of consumers and income. Also there's of course the lower bar of entry and therefore greater incentive to try when there's no box price and you can download the game or play it directly in your browser rather than going to a store.

You don't have to believe my personal anecdote if you don't want to. The math/economics of it provides a perfectly viable alternative explanation for why it would be more profitable.

What you just responded with is

1) no actual verifiable quote of any kind

2) doesn't prove your original statement anyway

 

Your original statement was that when a game goes F2P the average revenue per user goes up. Which is contrary to everything I've actual read, seen and heard. More profitable and more profitable per user are two different statements.

Saying that a guy said the game had a higher number of subs than before the F2P transition has absolutely nothing to do with the revenue per user. The game also has a lot of free players it didn't have before.

 

The economics of F2P is, and always has been, that it brings in less money per user, but it opens it up to a much wider audience so the end result should be bigger profits. It has never been that suddenly, with a bunch of freeloaders, that you get a higher revenue per user.

 

So no, you have still proven no facts to back up your statement of "F2P has a higher AVERAGE REVENUE PER USER than subscription".

That was a lot of text for no information at all.

 

It could be summed up as him saying "It will be an MMO that isn't like MMOs and we won't call it an MMO."

Originally posted by CazNeerg
Here is the thing though; unless we put on our tinfoil hats and argue that the companies running these freemium games are all lying to their investors and the rest of the world, we have to take them at their word when they tell us that those who do spend money are spending enough that their average revenue per player is actually higher than fifteen dollars a month after going freemium.  If that is true, why would subscription only systems ever become dominant again?

Do you have links to any high up exec saying "Our average revenue per user has increased with F2P?" because I don't think I've actually ever heard that in my life.

 

I could see someone saying that "Due to the increase in players, our revenue has increased to a level that is higher than the average revenue per player at our old subscriber user base."

 

That is the gist I've taken away from most of the actual talk from execs about their change to F2P. That they get a lower money per user average, but they get far more users which if they get enough extra users they exceed the subscription money even with the lower average.

Genres all have peaks and valleys. When the FPS genre was invented, it also peaked and everyone loved them. That in turned caused every company to dive in and toss out FPS games as fast as they could. The genre became saturated with a ton of crap and interest waned. The genre never died, but it did dip into a valley and other genres gained focus.

 

That in turn caused all the companies that dove into the genre hoping for quick bucks to turn to other genres. A new group of developers came in and revisited the genre and also reinvented it a bit.

 

Now we are in a resurgence again where every CoD game breaks sales records of the one that came before, not to mention other games like Halo. This time all those companies who failed before (many of which ceased to exist all together) didn't dive back in because they see the history of how hard it actually is to make a successful MMO.

 

 

MMOs peaked years ago and everyone rushed in to make their quick buck. The genre is saturated with unoriginal crap and more just keeps flowing in. The genre is slowing and will dip into a valley as other genres peak up and grab the attention (social/casual gaming being a big one growing quick). This will cause most of the companies to bow out of the MMO industry and then in the future some new ones will come along and revitalize it, just like FPS games.

 

 

The game industry has repeated this for every genre of game that has come around. It is simply the cycle and we're in the crappy part of that cycle.

Originally posted by Burntvet

By the same token, Neverwinter was not included on that list and that was also a major advertiser here.

And that game SUCKED, especially because it is now "The D&D" MMO for the foreseeable future.

Sure, other than the fact there already was, and continues to be, another D&D MMO. What was the name of that one again... it was a tricky name.... hmmm..... oh right D&D online. So what exactly makes you consider Neverwinter as "The D&D" MMO?

Originally posted by DamonVile

There's something disappointing about seeing a list of low budget games as the worst games of the year. So many big budget games could of done so much more AND didn't have that handicap.

It's like picking indi movies as the worst but giving transformers a pass because it had cool explosions.

I don't think it is right to refer to it as a handicap.

 

Make no mistake, the majority of these low budget titles were low budget on purpose, not due to lack of funds. They were companies who sought to crank out a piece of crap F2P MMO as quick as possible to try and exploit the current gaming trend of F2P in attempts to make a profit before enough word got out about how shit-tastic their game was.

 

Those types of companies and games have always existed and they are intentional. They are far separated from the small indie groups who truly want to toil hard with limited funds to make something great. If these had been true scrapping Indie guys who had made a few missteps, I'd be right there with you to say the list wasn't right. However, these games were deliberately crap in the quest for a quick buck and deserve their spots over the big budget mainstream titles that didn't quite deliver.

 

 

 

 

People should also be wary of any browser based MMO. Yes, Runescape made it work (and did so long ago), but time has shown us that if an MMO is browser based it is almost certainly going to be utter crap. This also highlights the dangers of F2P. Companies will crank out low budget crap with no barrier of entry to try and swindle a few bucks. They know they can't get away with that and a box price (or subscription) because people will research and read reviews before putting their money down and they will end up broke real fast.

Originally posted by UNATCOII
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 

People inflate MMO numbers way too often. 

Many big name MMOs have a much smaller base (and now in the days of F2P a much smaller paying base) then people suggest. They just assume all of these F2P titles have 300,000 regularly paying players and are making money hand over fist when that is in fact a rarity.

That's fair.  But it is also fair, and as far as we can see entirely accurate, that the numbers EvE has risen to over time are numbers that, when subscription games with AAA budgets drop to them, they get their models adjusted to some form of Freemium.  It takes a lot more for a AAA game to reach and maintain success than for low budget niche games to do so.

EvE numbers will only rise even more, since CCP approved the use of IsBox for multi-boxing.

 

Before that multiple accounts were necessary to skill more than 1 toon at a time, so 500k isn't 500k actual players. Average online presence in the world is 50-55k, and I'd say 1/3 are 2+ accounts by 1 player (as you can see gatecamps and mining ops run that way ingmae).

Then again I've never played an MMO (and I've played a ton of them) where I didn't know of plenty of multi-boxers playing at any given time. So every MMO suffers from the numbers game where a certain percentage of online players are multi-boxers or macro accounts.

Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 

People inflate MMO numbers way too often. 

Many big name MMOs have a much smaller base (and now in the days of F2P a much smaller paying base) then people suggest. They just assume all of these F2P titles have 300,000 regularly paying players and are making money hand over fist when that is in fact a rarity.

That's fair.  But it is also fair, and as far as we can see entirely accurate, that the numbers EvE has risen to over time are numbers that, when subscription games with AAA budgets drop to them, they get their models adjusted to some form of Freemium.  It takes a lot more for a AAA game to reach and maintain success than for low budget niche games to do so.

AAA MMOs have huge production and marketing costs to pay off.  EVE is an indie MMO with the same few copy pasted graphic environments used everywhere (which they can get away with cos....space). EVE does need to make a lot less money than something like SWTOR  or even WoW to start turning a profit and be considered a success

Yes, but that is more a failure with the industry (and most of the entertainment industries these days). They've put eye candy so high on the list as necessary that Video Games, Movies, even TV shows are costing hundreds of millions to make. This is causing a lot of failure in all of the industries as well. It is why the movie industry has what it likes to call tent poles. It makes a movie that they banked the entire success of the company on and they need to have that do well to survive.

 

Gaming companies are doing the same thing which is why there have been shut downs and layoffs mentioned so often. They are over investing and then failing.

 

A top company could make an MMO for less money than they are now, they are just refusing to because they are afraid to make several smaller games targeted at specific groups instead of one mega-game costing a fortune that is designed to try to get everyone to play.

 

Of course absolutely none of this at all has anything to do with my topic which is the fact that the majority of the F2P companies are missing out on a F2P implementation that logically makes more sense, allows more people to play for free by directly supplying whales with what they want and allows whales to pay even more. A buyable currency which can be traded in game amongst players and then that currency can be applied to subscriptions (or even a store) is simply a smarter way instead of hoping enough of your player base will buy the newest sparkle pony to keep you in business. It also allows for better gameplay design instead of focusing all of the efforts on what else they can shove into a store.

Why don't you just state what your real agenda is instead of playing this game?

 

Are you one of the people mad that people laugh when games like WoT, LoL and the like are called MMOs and is trying to "discredit" different definitions of MMOs?

 

What is the real reason behind this question since the question wasn't "Does anyone have any cool screenshots of MMOs with hundreds of players on screen at once?" It was more like "People who say MMOs have hundreds of people on screen at once are full of bullshit."

Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 

EvE is still cited at one of the only long running MMOs to continue to grow. Clearly the model can work far better than F2P where games switch to F2P and a year later are struggling to make money and then put ridiculous things on the cash shop for ridiculous prices to milk their customers as much as possible.

The smaller a game is, the less of an accomplishment it is to continue to grow.  It's awesome that EvE continues to grow, but most AAA games, if their numbers were to *drop* to the most players EvE has ever had at once, would be considered in trouble and be looking to either adjust their model or shut down.  Comparing EvE to games from EA, Acti-Blizzard, or Sony is like comparing a "successful" self-published book to a sub-par release from Tom Clancy or George R.R. Martin.  In case that wasn't clear enough, I am saying that an EvE type runaway success still makes less money overall than a lot of products big companies would consider disappointing returns on investment.

People inflate MMO numbers way too often.

 

Many big name MMOs have a much smaller base (and now in the days of F2P a much smaller paying base) then people suggest. They just assume all of these F2P titles have 300,000 regularly paying players and are making money hand over fist when that is in fact a rarity.

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

I think it would work out better for most people if they adopted the style that Puzzle Pirates did and what I believe you can do with PLEX in EvE (haven't tried that game since sometime in the first year it was around).

 

Make a game where a sub gets you the full game, access to everything, traditional MMO style. Make a limited free area/free level cap/free trial where you can do some but need a sub to actually get access to everything. Then let the whales buy as much currency as they want which can be used to buy subs (and if deemed necessary items in a store). Then let that currency be traded around in game for different things.

 

It works for so many because 1) The whales can buy everything they need in game through buying currency and trading it to other players for what it is that they need. 2) Players who don't like to pay for a game can grind out items that are needed by other players to earn currency to fund their gaming.

 

I'm not sure why so many companies have been resistant to this type of model and have either stuck with sub or gone all the way to f2p with store and no tradable buyable currency. This also makes it easier for people to bring their friends in by giving them enough currency to get their first month to try it out.

 

Because other models make more money? It is not as easy, in this model, for a whale to click on and buy a $500 sword on an impulse.

 

It is exactly as easy for a whale to impulse buy. They see sword of awesomesauce on the auction house for 500 creds from another player. On the Auction House tab is a buy creds button. Done.

 

EvE is still cited at one of the only long running MMOs to continue to grow. Clearly the model can work far better than F2P where games switch to F2P and a year later are struggling to make money and then put ridiculous things on the cash shop for ridiculous prices to milk their customers as much as possible.

Will you suck again is a pretty tough question to answer without knowing why you feel you sucked last time you played. However, there are plenty of people who get to max level and join in on top level quests who I am sure consider themselves to suck.

 

The game is friendlier now than it was in 2002. XP from quests are much higher (meaning running quests is a truly viable, and possibly the fastest, way to level now instead of grinding mobs). Money and loot come easier than before as well.

 

There is more guidance to a new player now through intro quests in the starter towns as well as a Facility Hub which gives direct to the quest path up to level 45ish. From there you now have contracts you can buy which tell you where a quest starts as well as where the location of the quest is and level intention.

 

Mace no longer exists as a skill. There is Heavy, Light and Finesse weapons for melee and then there is a mastery for specific weapon types which gives a bonus to using that type of weapon. So you could be any of those three skills and then choose mace as a mastery. There is also two handed combat which is powerful and fun.

 

There are new schools of magic since you last played. There is now summoning which let's you pop out a minion to fight along side you (which are quite powerful and therefore you would certainly suck less with one by your side).

 

You have tailoring now so you can put the piece of armor that you like the look of over the piece of armor that has the stats you want.

 

Overall it is always worth coming back and seeing what you think. I'd suggest starting with a fresh character as it will certainly be easier for you and you will get more direction on what to do starting out. For you maybe a Finesse weapons/summoning character which, if setup correctly, will give you good defense and plenty of killing power through you and your summons.

I think it would work out better for most people if they adopted the style that Puzzle Pirates did and what I believe you can do with PLEX in EvE (haven't tried that game since sometime in the first year it was around).

 

Make a game where a sub gets you the full game, access to everything, traditional MMO style. Make a limited free area/free level cap/free trial where you can do some but need a sub to actually get access to everything. Then let the whales buy as much currency as they want which can be used to buy subs (and if deemed necessary items in a store). Then let that currency be traded around in game for different things.

 

It works for so many because 1) The whales can buy everything they need in game through buying currency and trading it to other players for what it is that they need. 2) Players who don't like to pay for a game can grind out items that are needed by other players to earn currency to fund their gaming.

 

I'm not sure why so many companies have been resistant to this type of model and have either stuck with sub or gone all the way to f2p with store and no tradable buyable currency. This also makes it easier for people to bring their friends in by giving them enough currency to get their first month to try it out.

Welcome back to a truly great game. Yes, once you accept the graphics are what they are, the fun of AC shines through and it is a blast to play. Faster combat vs lots of enemies that you don't see in most other games. No trinity. Fast leveling yet lots to explore and see. Loot loot and more loot.

 

It really is a great game that a lot of people are missing out on.

Originally posted by jagd241
Originally posted by eric1000
McQuaid made one good game when MMO's were new and fresh, after which he thought of himself as the god of the genre.  Vanguard showed just how wrong he was.  Has everyone forgotten how he bad mouthed all the other competing games that were being made at the same time?  I bet FC haven't stopped laughing yet that SoE had to bail out his wreck of a game.  Myself I wouldn't touch anything that McQuaid has a hand in until it has been proven solid, polished and a worthwhile investment of my money and time.

Vanguard at release was buggy but design wise better than anything else that's come along since.  Your money is yours to spend as you want.  If you didn't like Vanguard I can't imagine you'll like a new game from him.  I on the other hand am looking forward to this game - and frankly the lack of big time money will force them to make a smaller, better game.  Vanguard's biggest failing was that the aimed way too big.

buggy is the understatement of a lifetime. I've played many MMOs at launch, and several have been buggy.

 

Vanguard at launch was a f*&king train wreck. I played on day 1 (when it wasn't crashing and rolling back resetting all progress and all of the "permanently found and engraved landmarks" which were supposed to be nice and special to early players) and I couldn't believe how broken it was. It was atrocious and to this day I am pissed they didn't give a refund.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned anywhere in this thread but...... if you have to ask then you aren't anywhere in the realm of ready to make an MMO.

 

Just throwing that out there as an honest answer. Over the years I've seen so many people who "simply wanted to make an MMO" and yet they didn't have game engine, art, design, ai, networking, billing, etc., experience and there is no way on Earth they could ever make an MMO.

 

Modifying any engine to fit your game's needs is a big big project and not something a novice is going to be able to jump in and do. Building an MMO engine is also not something a novice, or even most experts could ever hope to do and it takes a team of people years to build it and get it working just right.

 

 

Truth is, any want to be game designer should start off making a small browser or mobile game first and work up from there. Those are on the scale that a single person can do them alone and it let's you start to learn on a much smaller scale. Then slowly work up bigger projects over time. People don't just jump into successful MMOs with no relevant experience (even major corporations have trouble launching successful and working MMOs).

They should follow that e-mail up with a "How much would you pay to have other people at low levels to group with?"

 

Since most long term players have a bunch of 90s and now other people will pop in and buy 90s. Granted I wouldn't buy a 90 or play WoW again, but I can see this hurting legitimate players even more due to have fewer people to play/level with.

Pretty nice to give Most Innovative to what a company WANTED to do and not what they did.

 

That being the case, go ahead and give me most innovative for the game I WANT to make which has:

 

a leveless yet deep character system

Truly astounding AI that both plays with you and against you

True world creation and destruction

A deep complex economy

Skill based PvP on a level never seen before

 

 

I will still accept the award when instead I make a game that looks and plays worse than original EQ since my intents were so innovative and the results don't matter.

Originally posted by Reklaw

Seems to be okay these day's that people accept fluff as being cashshop items. Not talking about F2P games but talking about sub/based games with cashshops

To me fluff matters, I want to craft it, ceate it, enhance it, train it, mount it....etc.....

Fluff items are actually very meaningfull. Else they wouldn´t put them into cashshops.

 I do understand those players who don´t care about fluff or are simply willing to use the cashshops.

I can just pay for the cashshops items but it would elliminate the purpose and enjoyment I get from playing games.

If the gameworld provides me the same acces to the same fluff items in cashshops I wouldn´t complain. Nor would I mind going thru some difficult tasks to obtain those fluff items. 

 

So my main question is: Do you care about fluff?

Well to be fair since you say buying something from a cash shop would ruin your enjoyment it seems that paying anything for a game (since you're playing F2P it sounds like) would ruin your enjoyment, which means that you are not paying game companies.

 

That is kind of the point. Game companies need to make money. And since they aren't filled with ads the way TV shows are, they need you as a player to pay for things. So they need to put things on the cash shop that you want so that you will pay your way and not freeload them into bankruptcy. Since you want these fluff items and now need to decide if you want them bad enough to pay, it sounds like whatever game it is, is hitting close to the right mark.

 

You should never expect your entire gaming hobby to be free, otherwise there'd be no game for you to enjoy.

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