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All Posts by Torval

All Posts by Torval

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6556 posts found

Fair enough. I would rather just go through the Steam workshop and download them there whether they're free or paid.

Does Nexus revenue share with its modders or Bethesda?

For blue and purple assets you really need to watch the AH closely. Great deals pop up but they get snapped up quickly. You're not going to hit the AH and get the best deal consistently. It takes some time and effort. Those assets vary wildly by profession and popularity trends too.
Originally posted by ReallyNow10
Originally posted by Torval

Lineage 1 was a real hardcore game. It had a truly stinging death penalty, full open world pvp, possible loot drop on death along with the hefty xp penalty, and a loot grind unrivaled. It's oldest most popular mmorpg on the planet.

EQ1 was hardcore lite. It was had lite versions of all those features, just enough to give players the feeling that they were hardcore without actually fulfilling the bill.

There is a reason Lin1 failed in the west. Western players don't want real hardcore. Well 2 reasons actually. It is published by NCSoft so when it didn't perform stellarly NC axed it like they do all the rest. I think if it was published by another company it would still be going here today.

The reason EQ1 softened with time is that is what its players want. The people who pay the bills don't want hardcore. There may be a few out here who like hardcore or who would pay for it, but there aren't enough to make that viable beyond a tiny little niche.

Lineage 1 was "full open world PVP", not a "hardcore PVE" game.  Western players don't want PVP hardcore.  EQ1, pre-2005, was hardcore enough and about right, and pre-broadband, did just fine at 500,000 players.  Impressive, pre-broadband.

EQ1 failed because its graphics were clunky, it had a horrid U.I. (still does), and it made some design changes that killed the old world (basically, they introduced a central zone you could port to/from.  No need to ever venture back into the old world so much, and certainly no community there).

A hardcore PVE game is NOT a niche concept.  Saying so is like saying powered flight is a failed concept because the Wright Brothers' first aircraft sucked.

Hardcore PVE is the future in MMO's, I think.  Or at least a big part of it.

You could say that today's games are hardcore enough. Saying something is "hardcore enough" isn't really saying anything at all. It's like I said, the illusion of hardcore to satisfy egos. Maybe you can't really get hardcore without pvp.

Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by justmemyselfandi
Originally posted by Torval

Not charging for a mod doesn't mean that people right now won't take your work, repackage it, and distribute it somewhere else for money. Nexus isn't free, but no one is bitching about that. You have to pay them $2 at a minimum, $5 monthly plans, up to "lifetime" memberships for $75 lump sums. Not only that they generate ad revenue. If half of all PC Skyrim owners paid the minimum fee to access those mods that is just under $3M. That doesn't include ad and higher tier membership revenue. How much of that goes to the modders?

Downloading mods from Nexus has always been free.

Well, it's not free exactly.

You either pay money to be a member or you are subjected to advertisements. Granted "you" are not being charged but you are participating in the website's system of making money. They don't exist without money and they get their money from ad revenue or from members.

It's not free for files over 2MB, those rated as being "mature" content, and such.

If you have an account you can download mods over 2 mb. I do all the time. I don't pay a membership fee but I do subject myself to their advertisements.

Or maybe I'm mistaken about their size (I doubt it). Point me toward a nexus mod that you believe requires direct payment and I'll test it.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/607/?tab=2&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Fskyrim%2Fajax%2Fmodfiles%2F%3Fid%3D607&pUp=1

http://www.nexusmods.com/stateofdecay/mods/73/?tab=2&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Fstateofdecay%2Fajax%2Fmodfiles%2F%3Fid%3D73&pUp=1

Just click manually download without logging in. Why the need to login? So they can redirect you to their membership page where they push payment options in your face worse than any free to play game.

Anyway, if you don't create an account you can't download them. If it's free why have an account unless they're going to monetize off of you.

I'm probably going to wait until it releases and I see how it starts maturing. Ultima III was my first real computer game and I really like some of the ideas with this game, but I want to see how it ends up. How is the housing and town ownership going to work. How will crafting and progression end up working. How will skill deck versus statically available skills end up.

There is still a little too much that needs to be cooked for me to buy in yet.

Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by justmemyselfandi
Originally posted by Torval

Not charging for a mod doesn't mean that people right now won't take your work, repackage it, and distribute it somewhere else for money. Nexus isn't free, but no one is bitching about that. You have to pay them $2 at a minimum, $5 monthly plans, up to "lifetime" memberships for $75 lump sums. Not only that they generate ad revenue. If half of all PC Skyrim owners paid the minimum fee to access those mods that is just under $3M. That doesn't include ad and higher tier membership revenue. How much of that goes to the modders?

Downloading mods from Nexus has always been free.

Well, it's not free exactly.

You either pay money to be a member or you are subjected to advertisements. Granted "you" are not being charged but you are participating in the website's system of making money. They don't exist without money and they get their money from ad revenue or from members.

It's not free for files over 2MB, those rated as being "mature" content, and such.

Originally posted by justmemyselfandi
Originally posted by Torval

Not charging for a mod doesn't mean that people right now won't take your work, repackage it, and distribute it somewhere else for money. Nexus isn't free, but no one is bitching about that. You have to pay them $2 at a minimum, $5 monthly plans, up to "lifetime" memberships for $75 lump sums. Not only that they generate ad revenue. If half of all PC Skyrim owners paid the minimum fee to access those mods that is just under $3M. That doesn't include ad and higher tier membership revenue. How much of that goes to the modders?

Downloading mods from Nexus has always been free.

Unless you want access to all mods. Some mods won't download without an account (e.g. 2MB or greater, if they're rated adult, etc). So you're left with whatever they'll allow for free which isn't a lot. This is why I only said half of the estimated PC sales. Out of over 20M Skyrim sales I'm only calculating on about 1.4M.

So how much of their generated revenue does go to modders? It doesn't take millions of dollars to run that site. That site makes money off of both Bethesda and the modders and gives nothing back.

Valves system needs some work (a lot of work), but it's at least thought out to make sure everyone gets paid.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
What a terrible way to treat the mod makers.  My guess is that the owners of skyrim demanded 50% and Valve is taking another 25%.

Valve takes its cut off the top. After that the publisher decides the split of what is left over. That is 75% Bethesda / 25% modder.

Right now some members are posting fake protest mods cluttering up the system. There are a lot and it clutters up the workshop. I report those that pop up and I hope they're banned from posting for a reasonable period of time because it's bullshit they can throw their little fits and affect the rest of the game community - players and modders who just want to get on.

What needs to happen is that modders should need to register and license their accounts to post much like the Apple AppStore, Google Play Store, and Microsoft App Store. This sort of ruckus shows that the system needs tighter controls and curating.

Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by justmemyselfandi
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by ArChWind

In my previous post I did forget one thing. I won't be making any more mods for Skyrim.

Reason for this is I make them for me and decided to share them but now that will change since it can be used in a for sale item in which I have not received any return.

I also have decided that future games such as those developed and sold with a mod kit are off limits so I won't be buying them.

I guess I have to find a new hobby now. :(

Why don't you just put them on nexus and allow good people the benefit of your work?

Or put them on steam and don't charge?

people who mod who decide not to mod for this reason are just hurting the community. It's like you are stomping your foot, taking your toys and going home.

My large mod which I have been working on for over a year will not be charged for as I want people to get enjoyment from it if it's their thing. And I don't feel "right" charging for something that I feel is just a mod done for enjoyment.

I don't have to allow the decisions of others affect that. Neither do you.

Probably because according to Valve, by not charging for his mod, anyone is allowed to use his mod to make their own and charge for it. So you decide to make a free mod, I come along, take your mod, add a sword to it, and can sell it for profit without your permission.

I'll have to look that "clause" over as that seems odd.

The two closest items I've found is one where, if there are "multiple contributors" you need to list them and their shares. I can easily see this one being a mess but that leads to ...

Q. What if I see someone posting content I've created?

A. If someone has copied your work, please use the DMCA takedown notice.

If there is an actual statement or clause that definitively states that someone can modify your mod and use it as their own I'm not seeing it.

I think some people are either inexperienced or simply haven't seen the other side of the digital publishing and software world. Welcome to the world of having your digital work stolen and used by others without your permission.

Quite a few people on this site have, over the years, proudly proclaimed how they pirate and steal software. They use all sorts of rationalizations, but in the end they're thieves. Some people in this thread have even alluded to the fact that they steal software. It should be no surprise that when you try and publish content on the internet that people will steal and abuse your work.

Photographers, musicians, software developers, writers, and content creators all struggle with this. You don't even have to charge or profit for your work for people to steal, unethically modify, or redistribute your work and charge for it. I've seen it happen with VLC, Paint dotNet, Notepad++, 7-zip, among others, and of course music and photographs.

Not charging for a mod doesn't mean that people right now won't take your work, repackage it, and distribute it somewhere else for money. Nexus isn't free, but no one is bitching about that. You have to pay them $2 at a minimum, $5 monthly plans, up to "lifetime" memberships for $75 lump sums. Not only that they generate ad revenue. If half of all PC Skyrim owners paid the minimum fee to access those mods that is just under $3M. That doesn't include ad and higher tier membership revenue. How much of that goes to the modders?

Lineage 1 was a real hardcore game. It had a truly stinging death penalty, full open world pvp, possible loot drop on death along with the hefty xp penalty, and a loot grind unrivaled. It's oldest most popular mmorpg on the planet.

EQ1 was hardcore lite. It was had lite versions of all those features, just enough to give players the feeling that they were hardcore without actually fulfilling the bill.

There is a reason Lin1 failed in the west. Western players don't want real hardcore. Well 2 reasons actually. It is published by NCSoft so when it didn't perform stellarly NC axed it like they do all the rest. I think if it was published by another company it would still be going here today.

The reason EQ1 softened with time is that is what its players want. The people who pay the bills don't want hardcore. There may be a few out here who like hardcore or who would pay for it, but there aren't enough to make that viable beyond a tiny little niche.

You can choose the difficulty level of the instances you go into. If the content is too easy then pay attention to the difficulty level and choose harder rated missions.

2500 prestige isn't very far into character progression and you didn't see everything because the content isn't unlocked. The harder group content comes at much higher prestige levels.

The early levels seem intended to be easy to train you how to play the role in the classes you are unlocking.

I wouldn't have been so rude if you hadn't made rude thoughtless comments about solo players.

I think Lineage 1 would still be open today here if it weren't published by NCSoft. They really seem to hate us or at best tolerate us as a repulsive revenue stream. One aspect that was really unpopular with the westerners at the time was the xp grind. A lot of people I knew from the east used Linmate to help level. That seemed less popular with westerners.

What made Lineage pvp worth it for me is exactly what you said, it's not just that PKs could drop gear but that xp loss was a huge consequence. Also the dynamic nature of Pledges and Pledge alliances made it really cool. I loved how the Koreans, Chinese, Taiwanese, North American, and other countries and nationalities would band together or war. There was an international competitive aspect, but also a certain camaraderie.

Mostly I liked the pve to be honest. I loved hunting for rare drops or finding a dungeon empty and waiting for the boss to pop and see if I could solo it. I loved that I could duo or trio with a couple of friends or I could solo if I wanted.

My main was a mage and I had an elf that switched between air, water, and earth sometimes (that switching was expensive lol). I stopped playing seriously after the pirate island was released. I don't really remember much. My pledge was called the Republic of Texas (rotx).

I hope Lineage Eternal will offer something like that. If it ends up just being a gankfest I'll pass. I understand a lot of people like that now, but it's not for me.

Originally posted by BulletTooth
Originally posted by Torval
Yeah this game is definitely not for people who like to get carried or ezmode faceroll in a group.

I agree with you. it is definitely for people who like to ezmode face roll solo. I have done pretty much everything solo up to this point and died once when I jumped of the edge of the world.

At 2500 prestige... sure you did.

This is probably true, except I think it would do just fine with a pve server as well. I played on LoA but had a character on Ken Rahuel and Dep and I enjoyed visiting Ken. I'm not sure if I would play a full on pvp game now. The PvP community has changed a lot since the early days. Now it's all gank gank gank.

Wow, post. Leadership was my first profession. It's not the easiest one to level or use. This is a great write-up and guide.

I use the leadership / credit card combo.

Yeah this game is definitely not for people who like to get carried or ezmode faceroll in a group.

I'm glad it worked out for you. I do like the 970. So far it has run really well.

I got a chuckle from your uncle's reaction at the Area 51. I really wasn't expecting it to be that big and ugly either. If he doesn't mind building his own he can certainly do better than that for a lot less money.

Originally posted by Brabbit1987
Originally posted by Torval

lol you're crazy if you really think this is going to go well. But hey, I guess people never learn. As if green light wasn't evidence enough.

I swear it just makes me facepalm that people continue to fall for crap like this.

Yeah, isn't strange how in a world of 7.2Bn people some people don't think and do what you want them to? Greenlight is evidence of what? You didn't get your way their either? Some games I play never would have made it to Steam without Greenlight. There are some bad games on Steam that didn't need Greenlight. Having bad games get through Greenlight doesn't negate the good ones.

Unless you can get over people disagreeing with you then you might as well just super-glue your palms to your face.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

The hysteria in this thread is not unexpected. It's quite normal for players to go ballistic if they have to face the threat of having to possibly PAY for stuff they used to get totally free...

I think it's a great idea that is a completely inevitable development. I'd expect that the original developer of the core game will get a cut of the sale price. It's their product that's being indirectly monetized, after all. Either way, they are probably happy with the extra exposure and playability it gives their games.

Charging for your mod on Steam Workshop is optional.

Steam offer a refund policy if you're not happy with the purchased mod.

I'm sure that this system will be expanded to eventually include all moddable games on Steam. It will also increase the amount of mods being made, which is only a good thing. The only downside I can see is trying to decide which mods to actually use in that catalog of 1000's of offers...

Very good post. Unlike the reactionists I think this will lead to paid mods being higher quality. The chaff will get weeded out with the hobbyists and community idealists providing content for no additional charge.

Where I think this might go is eventually squeezing out third party sites, but it's a little early to tell. Other sites like Nexus profit off of mods. People pretending that just because you can download one for free doesn't mean that Nexus doesn't charge and profit. They profit off of ads and they charge if you don't want the crippled service.

Originally posted by Brabbit1987

Originally posted by Torval
Originally posted by Brabbit1987

After reading through everything, I realized not many people here even understand what is going on in it's entirety. Which is why you have some people talking about why the cut is split the way it is, and some defending it. Most people are talking about the things that hardly matter, and missing many issues that this will cause or has already caused.

It's not a good thing, and it doesn't take a long to figure that out when you actually understand how this can effect the modding community.

Care to explain how it's not good and how you think it will affect the modding community?

Ok, here is a full list of the problems.

1) Modding is something a person tends to do simply because they like the game. They are fan and it's pretty similar to a fan making fan art. They don't typically start making mods to look for a way to earn money because they never have been able to before. This means, they start making the mods they do, without the thought of being able to earn any income from it. They do it for themselves, and the community. That is what made the community so appealing.

My point here is that now if you can earn money to do this. you are very likely to see a bunch of people hopping on board just to earn a quick buck. It will soon no longer be about the community, it will be about what is the best way to cheat people.

If you go on a modding website like Nexus mods, you will see already a modder by the name of Chesko has ran into issues and now is likely never going to mod again. The creator of one of the most popular mods has been driven out of the modding community because people feel he betrayed them. He even removed his mods off of Steam Workshop, or I should say tried. He used FNIS in his fishing mod, without permission and tried to sell it.

So essentially this has caused a lot of drama in the community already. Isoku is another modder who has been torn to shreds by the community. Everyone is now pitted against each other.

2) Paying even more money to the companies for work they have not done. We already pay for the game, pre-orders, micro-transactions, and dlc. This is just one more ways the companies are trying to take even more money while throwing people under a bus to do so.

That modder Chesko I mentioned, he can't remove the mod entirely off the workshop. Valve said they will not remove it unless he takes legal action. Something people don't realize is under the agreement for uploading your content to the workshop, you also give up your rights on your content to Valve. It states they are free to pretty much do what ever it is they wish with it. Of course this is part of the modders fault for accepting such an agreement and not reading it through properly. However, this just goes to show you ... the deal is no where as good as it seems.

Anyone who thinks the 75% cut is fair is also kidding themselves. It's not fair in the least bit, and NO steams store costs are not going to cost 75% of the damned profits. That is simply silly.

3) Mods added value to games. If you could mod a game, it made the game seem a lot better because you could alter it to suit the way you like to play your game. Charging for mods, destroys that. It no longer adds value, it takes away from it, because now you are being charged even more money. So for the general consumer this isn't a good thing, unless you simply don't care to throw your money at companies without a second thought.  I play with about 100 mods on Skyrim. Now imagine if all of them costed money.

Now of course, this is being slightly unrealistic since of course not all mod authors are going to charge money, which bring me to the fourth point.

4) Let's say companies see this as a good idea. They can now make money off of other peoples work. Who is to say they will not release their games with modding tools that you can only use if you release and go through their store? Meaning this can cause a domino effect. A future where all mods are now paid for. The modding community would no longer be a community, it would be a business. If you think something like this can't happen, I assure you it can. Companies will do anything that the customers allow them to get away with. Such as many people who think this is a good idea without actually thinking about the future or what this "good idea" might cause.

5)Support is a big issue. We are talking about mods. you are paying money for a product that may by all means not work at some point. When a game updates, mods tends to break. Yes, you have 24 hours to return a mod. However, 24 hours is not always the time frame mods stop working, in fact .. it rarely is. After those 24 hours, there isn't anything you can do even if the mod author stops updating their mod. Valve and Bethesda are leaving it up entirely to the mod author, and they are not responsible. Even though they are taking 75%.

Mod authors are not professionals. If they are accepting money, by all means they are obligated to make their customers happy. However, as I said .. they are not professionals. Obligations may not mean anything to them, and with Valves and Bethesda's hands off approach, the consumer is screwed if the mod author simply doesn't give a crap. They already got paid, why be bothered to deal with updating the mod or fixing bugs? There isn't any consequences for them.

6) Because there are no consequences, doesn't this also imply a lot of theft can go on too? I could go on Nexus and download a ton of mods that are no longer in development. Mod author no where to be found. I can upload it to steam workshop and charge for it. How long will it stay up before it's found out that it isn't mine? This isn't even including other IP. Can one upload a mod with iron man in it and earn money? Can someone take an asset from another game and use it in their mod? Can I use another persons mod in my own mod?

Funny thing, Valve has said something about this already. If you use another persons mod and it's free, then it's fair game. So apparently you can, if it's free according to Valve. You know why? Because they are a big company and they are not worried about some random modder trying to sue them.

Now let me point out, all of this may not turn out this bad. However, there is a lot more bad that can come from this than any good.

Espeically since we could do something similar but with donations instead that would essentially eliminate all these problems.

If the modding community can't endure something like this where controlling egos are getting trampled, then the community was a total farce anyway. And the fantasy that modders did this solely out of the benevolence and purity of their hearts is a farce. People have all kinds of motives and reasons for doing things.

Game developers make games because they're passionate about it. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to do that as their vocation. Some games are good and some games are rubbish. It won't be any different with mods. Reputation and ratings will help straighten this out.

If someone licenses their software without looking at the conditions of the license then they're fools. Most developers only need to learn this lesson once. This happens with open source licensing sometimes. People get all touchy feely about open source and then go into a panty twisting rage when they realize they don't have absolute control over where their code goes.

I'm hoping a few things will come out of this. I hope we'll see better curated and maintained mods. I hope this is a decent way for game developers, like Runic, to continue to profit off of existing games. I hope we'll see some of the more professional modders form businesses, or that some game companies will have modding divisions where higher quality professional mods are produced.

I do hope that licensing modding tools changes going forward. I hope, like Visual Studio, that if you want to produce community grade content for free they provide the tools for free. If you want to profit from the tools then you need to license them in order to sell your mods on a platform.

If you don't like the sales then keep giving them away for free. Right now all the major mods installed in the house are freely licensed. I probably won't pay for most, but some I will. I will certainly pay the Synergies team for their TL2 mod if they choose to charge for it when the platform opens up.

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