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All Posts by Rocketeer

All Posts by Rocketeer

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1278 posts found

Whats the difference between botting/cheating in games versus say ... sports? Why should games be protected by laws while faking getting fouled not? And where do we draw the line? Laws apply to everyone, thats the whole point of it. Will cops keep an eye on kids at a playground making sure they are not cheating?


Its a game. And that game economy? Its not real. Yes even if you pay real money for it. Just because you pay money for something doesn't mean its real.


Besides its easy to stop serverside. Just use region blocking, i have been in china and let me tell you pingtimes to european servers was beyond horrible, and i kinda doubt adding proxies or VPNs ontop of it to fould a region lock would improve it any. So just autokick anyone with a ping over XY and done.

And yeah, do as much on the server as possible, make it so the game needs a 1mbps stream just to render the landscape and players.

Welcome to life. If you want a game that is kid friendly EvE certainly isn't, but down blame human faults on a game. The only thing EvE gives you is freedom, and it is certainly a dystopian example about how freedom without boundaries or consequences will get misused.


Griefing someone recovering from cancer? Yeah thats real low and personally i don't understand how any human being can derieve satisfaction from that, but thats my entire point. Must humans are detestable, selfserving, bottomfeeding scum only held in balance by fear of law or more direct consequences.

Just think about it, do you think any of the millions of people making a living of screwing over other people in capitalism cares wether your in remission or have a gard life? The guy selling you a insurance he knows won't cover you? The guy at the used cars dealer who sells you a car which he fixed the miles counter on? The guy at the bank giving you a credit he knows you can't afford? The priest that abuses children? Or how about those "magic cures" people that sell insanely expensive "medication" to desperate people grasping for straws? Or how about those 10-75% of women who have been victim of sexual abuse depending on nation?


This is not a problem of EvE, this is a problem of humans. If you only encounter this in a game like EvE, then im very envious of the kind of life your leading.

Maybe the answer is to replace all characters by robotic pirate ninjas.

You know, cause robots have no gender, pirates are free and ninja are ... well silent and fully clothed i guess. Bit redundant with robots but hey, its double safe. Besides the target audience loves that kind of stuff and their parents are more likely to buy a game with robots than scantily clad women.


Yesterday i read an article in a newspaper about the problems women face in many islamic(or maybe just male dominated) countries, i kinda wonder how they would feel about us pointing the finger at some pixelart for a videogame and saying "thats sexism!".

I mean really, think about it. They are getting internet over there slowly, not everyone, but the "i know someone that knows someone ..." kind of internet access, so its actually possible for them to get aware of stuff like this(not comments specifically, but our attitude). 

So no, thats not sexism. Sexism is when women are not allowed to go to school, never get "adult" status(being legally ruled first by father/brothers later by husband), don't get to chose whom to marry and can get executed by stoning for being raped(cause its their fault you know?).


This art ... its tame, really tame by any reference to true Sexism you may name. The kind of stuff an artist might draw without even having an opinion regarding gender equality at all.  Maybe those are likenesses of his ex-wives and we are just reading a crapton into it because we like/dislike it?

Besides what is wrong with enjoying drawing/looking at sexy women/men? If you like it look, if you don't then don't. I think its great that we have the freedom to decide that for ourselfs and do not get forced one way or the other due to morals of other people. If we start forcing our own moral mores down the throats of others, then how are we different from the people we consider evil?

I understand some people get offended by partial nudity(especially female partial nudity), but really, if its not your body than its none of your business what the person is wearing.


There are three reasons we see more scantily clad females than males in this MMORPG genre:

1. Main target audience is male.

2. More artists/project leads that are male.

3. Homophobia is more common among males than females(infact its the social norm in western countries, men don't hold hands or compliment each others looks etc).


Given these reasons i think its pointless to argue for change, society has to change first, which it does, ask anyone over 30 how much it already did.

Originally posted by Vigg

I'm considering giving Rift another try and have a couple of questions.


First, which warrior class is best if I'm interested in a strictly DPS build?


Second, what is there to do at endgame besides raid?  I mean PvE, not much of a PvP'er.




Actually a third question, since saboteur also looks neat:  Do saboteurs have to kite much in PvE?

Since your getting all the Warrior Souls anyway and will have multiple sets to choose from before your level 20 ... Just try it out. Also keep in mind that a max level DPS build won't necessarily help you for leveling, maybe the cornerstone of the build is one of the later skills?

Personally im fond of the Champion, it feels ... like a proper warrior. You know, big twohander swinging around hitting multiple enemies for "cold steel in your face"-damage type.

In regards to your saboteur question ... it depends(mostly on other souls). Your attacks don't have a min range, so you don't have to kite for that, you might have to kite if you pull too many enemies, but then again, who doesn't? I don't feel like my saboteur has to kite more than say my cleric cabalist or my mage elementist. Then again, if i have to kite my sabo is alot better at it then they are.

Originally posted by Silvercrank

I was going through silverwood, im level 35 and i can't stay alive there and its a level 20 area it says on the map.

Can i get pked there on a pve server? and how do you stay alive here.


thank you

Check your mentor level, maybe your mentored down to like 14 or something. They seriously need to put a big red warning flag on that thing :D.

Originally posted by dasX82
I made a warrior and i'm forced to go at range due to everyone is range in this game. Mele class are completely useless and a painful to play with.

1. Not everyone is range in this game.

2. Use a soul with teleports/charges if your to lazy to walk 10m to your opponent yet want to play melee.

3. Don't worry, running is not considered sport if done in a game.


Seriously, whats the problem? You want a melee warrior that doesn't waste time running to foes? Paragon, Champion and Riftblade have charges/teleports. With 11 points in champion you can charge every 10 sec. And yes, you can even play a ranged warrior, whatever floats your boat.

Incase you mean the riftzergs, yes stuff there tends to die mighty fast. But thats not just a problem for melee classes, but also for classes with delayed damage like dots or classes with long casttimes. Warrior with charges would actually do better there than those other souls.

Where will the money come from?


Coin Forges.

You take a lump of gold, put it into a coin forge, and presto a gold coin is born.

The interesting question is, where does the gold come from? Well, probably mines. At the borders of the three realms right in the middle of the map.


Players dropping gold is silly, especially if they don't have any gold. To the question of what crafters do with their wealth, thats also simple. They pay fighters to protect them while they mine even more gold, a contract system would be handy for that i guess. Pretty easy stuff, money into escrow, if players x doesn't die for the next y hours player group z1 get awarded the money in escrow.

I mean that seems sensible. Pretty much how stuff worked for thousands of years in rl. Never change a running system.

Originally posted by TigsKC
Originally posted by Rocketeer

And yes, if your not a backer i don't care about your opinion on gamemechanics.

Without resorting to any inflammatory language, I simply disagree with this.  Good ideas are often scarce, and I would not discriminate based on their origin.  Also, today's non-backer can still be tomorrow's backer.  I feel we are still in the position of courting more backers and shunning folks you deem as not part of the community seems to work against this aim.

My two cents.


And how do you decide whats a good idea and what not? By posting it on the backers forum and see what people think about. Thats the entire point as far as i can see.

The way some people talk ideas are either good or bad which is imho wrong. They have to be seen in the context of the playerbase, something that sounds like a good idea to your average mmo gamer, like raids or pve leveling would be a bad idea given the crowd MJ actually appealed to with his KS. Not because including pve is a bad idea, infact it undoubtly would increase the games general appeal, but because its a bad idea in the context of this game.

This is about the kind of game CSE and MJ wants to make, and the people referred to as backers are people who agreed with them and share their vision atleast in some part. So with all due respect people seem to be missing from my posts, this is not the place to decide wether or not a idea is good or bad in the context of CU. Which is why i threw in the notion of "hey, lets talk about this specific idea afresh when backer forums open" instead of going "okay, this is where stopped, we already agreed to do xy and ...".

So yeah, collecting all kinds of ideas sure, good idea. But we will still have to talk about them in backers forum.

Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by Rocketeer

If your a backer we should renew this discussion on the founders forums once they open, but i don't see the point in discussing game mechanics or direction at this point in time with people who as likely as not didn't even back the game.

Hahaha, seriously. You make it sound like CUs some weird modern religion, pay your entrance fee and you are one of the important people. Anything less, your opinions and idea are worthless.

Fact is MJ himself has said from the very start, even made a point of it, that CU isn't DAoC 2. That doesnt mean "it will be a completely novel game bearing no resemblance to any game ever made", what it does mean is DAoC isnt some kind of leverage to dismiss ideas and people.

Or maybe i meant that literally. I.e. lets bring this to the backer forum once it goes live and see how they think about our different standpoints.

And yes, if your not a backer i don't care about your opinion on gamemechanics. Just like i don't care about the opinion a muslim in pakistan has about the pork eating here in germany. Sure they may have an opinion about it, and they may certainly express it. But i don't care. Because it has nothing to do with them and is none of their business(again, literally, not the keep your nose out of it meaning).

If your not a backer the development of the game has nothing to do with you. At the end of the day those who pay for the music decide what songs get played, if you can't deal with that you will be in for one tough life because thats how the world goes.

Edit: If CSE and MJ wanted input from non-backers at this point they wouldn't make the forums backer only.

Originally posted by TigsKC
Originally posted by Rocketeer

Maybe we need to take a step back from the mechnical side of rezzes. Instead of talking about rezz time in seconds or range in meters, CDs etc, lets talk about the basics.

You are probably correct, but I have wasted way too much of my life writing spell books not to take crack at it.  So here goes.  Unbalanced?  Likely.  Flawed?  Certainly.

TL:DR - Three resurrection spells for consideration.


Target:  One PC of your Realm

Range:  Touch

Casting Time: 10 seconds (channeled, interruptible)

Cost:  30% of caster’s health and mana

Cooldown:  15 seconds

Description:  The healer lays hands on Realm mate while invoking the divine and supernatural powers bestowed on her by knowledge, grace and connection to the Emissaries to revive her fallen mate at the healer’s present location with 40% of the target’s maximum health and mana.  Skill cannot be used in combat or target a burned corpse.  Casting, cost and resulting target vigor can be modified by enchantments and healer progression.

Battle Resurrection

Target:  One PC of your Realm

Range:  40 meters

Casting Time: 20 seconds (channeled, interruptible)

Cost:  70% of caster’s health and mana

Cooldown:  10 minutes

Description:  The healer channels the grace of the Emissaries from a distance upon on a fallen Realm mate to revive the PC at the target’s present location with 40% of the target’s maximum health and mana.  Skill may be used in combat, but not upon a burned corpse.  Casting, cost and resulting target vigor can be modified by enchantments and healer progression.

Mass Battle Resurrection

Target:  Up to 10 PCs of your Realm

Range:  Circular area of effect defined by perimeter with radius extending 15 meters from the caster

Casting Time: 40 seconds (channeled, interruptible)

Cost:  100% of caster’s health and mana

Cooldown:  4 hours

Description:  The healer makes the ultimate sacrifice of their lives for the greater glory of the Realm, reviving PCs at the target’s present location with 40% of the target’s maximum health and mana.  Skill may be used in combat, but not upon a burned corpse.  Casting, cost and resulting target vigor can be modified by enchantments and healer progression.  Upon death, the healer is instantly transported to the Veil to fight its monstrosities at full vigor.  If still alive after ten minutes, the healer is transported back to the spot of invocation at full vigor.  If defeated in the Veil, the healer is sent to a bind point and suffers with resurrection sickness for ten minutes.


For what its worth, i like it. Obviously the devil lies in the detail of things like how the game determines when someone is in combat and how difficult it will be to burn a corpse and prevent a later rezzing.

Also the last one ... speaking as a healer im having trouble envisioning a situation where i would and could use that. Hard to pull off in a battle, and unnecessary after a battle.

Originally posted by Ncrediblebulk

The backers forums isn't up so this is the place (or the subreddit) to discuss this until they put them up. You are right it isn't elitist to discuss potential design choices with just your backers when you have offical forums up. It is however elitist to suggest, like you did, that people who didn't back this game can't possibly bring anything to this discussion at this point in time based solely on the fact they haven't backed the game. The CU community isn't just made up of backers. I know plenty of people interested in the game who didn't back and certaintly are currently part of this community. At least until the official forums go up.

Maybe i wasn't very clear. Its not that people who didn't back the game can't add anything to an discussion. What i don't want to see is that people, who didn't back the game because they didn't agree with MJ design choices now would try to chance the way to their liking through the backdoor so to speak, i.e. changing it away from the game i backed.

There's no need to get used to it. People who backed this game did so with the understanding, just like you said, of the game just being in a "blackboard" form. I'd personally rather have a bazillion different ideas to present to potential backers in place of just it "must be full tab target" or "full aiming." Hence why MJ spoke of a hybrid system. Having more ideas to analyze and potentially flesh out does nothing but make this game better.

Its not about having a bazillion ideas, its about making clear which ideas come from where so as not to give an false impression as to what people want. On these forums there is always a hungry crowd waiting for the next MMO like a bunch of locusts only to move on quickly, heh im prolly one of them.

It's pretty arrogant of you to think that just because a discussion going on here, with people who haven't backed the game, couldn't be carried over into the backers forum and have ideas non backers suggested have an effect on the design process given it's a widely accepted idea. This is why I view your statements as elitist. More discussion means more ideas which in turn means more options and ultimately leads to a better game. People who are bringing constructive logical ideas to this discussion have every right, at least on this forum, to add to the pot of potential systems to be used if they have backed the game or not. It's our job as backers to take those ideas and transfer them to the official forum when they get put up and give CSE the most information possible so they can create something everyone can live with.

Heh, your the one assuming to know what i think and yet you call me arrogant. Sure we can carry things over, infact thats what i said we should do. What i view as being pointless is polling people with possibly no connection to the game as to what they would like. Kinda reminds me about our media here in germany polling germans which US president they would like, epitome of stupidity. Even if we could have somehow influenced the outcome of the election it would have been extremely unethical. And even just suggesting that germans have a preference for one or the other was plain rude in my eyes.

Simply put there are groups of people, can be nations, religions, LGBT or gaming communities. And yes of course you can involve yourself in a group you are not part of and give them advice or polls, but trying to form them into something else that you personally would prefer? Seems like a good idea to get even sensible ideas shot down because "they" are "lobbying" for it.

So yeah, sure go ahead and prepare a list of threads and polls and votes about what the community would like to see in CU. And then watch it getting torn apart because people will be afraid of outsiders taking charge of "their" thing. Thats human nature, unless of course every CU backer is a member of this forum anyway and thus won't see this as outside meddling, which imho is a bit of a stretch.


Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
Ya i never understood why linux programmers never cared about gaming. They are the nerdiest of us all, you would think they'd be all over that by default. Maybe because gaming doesn't involve typing commands in a terminal :)

You'd be surprised :D.

No, they care about gaming, its just that gaming requires artists. And while the linux communities are ripe with programmers, we do have a lack of artists and GUI specialists. Oh sure we have some really good guys working on X11 and Wayland, but they do it in the context of a productive, client server based GUI stack.

The situation is not helped by the fact that to get GFX performance you need proprietary drivers, and nerds don't like that. First it goes against their principles, second it irks them that these drivers are better than theirs and thirdly they are angry that nvidia/amd/intel keep their cards specifications secret from them, so they have to reverse engineer drivers.

Its a bad combo tbh, besides most serious linux coders do it in their free time, so their coding time would conflict with their gaming time. And if your not a gamer, and not getting paid for it, chances are your not interested in making games.

Maybe we need to take a step back from the mechnical side of rezzes. Instead of talking about rezz time in seconds or range in meters, CDs etc, lets talk about the basics. Do we want:


1. Incombat rezz, i.e. rezzes could only be restricted to uncontested areas.

2. Teleport rezz, i.e. rezzing a dead player from outside a fortification to the inside.

3. Rezzing as a healer skill or everyone.

4. Rezzing with or without penalty.


Anyway, how serious do we want death to be? Is it supposed to be a minor inconvinience? Maybe only minor if a healer is there? Or would it be more like EvE, not necessarily item loss or destruction, but a major inconvinience. I mean if a straggler gets caught or focus fired in EvE its very bad, and yet it works out there.

Im not in favor of copying EvEs big death penalty, i think it would be too harsh for a game like this, but neither would i feel ok with the way its handled in WoW or Warhammer. MJ said something about spacing rez points out so people can't rejoin battle too quickly and have defeat be meaningless, too easy rezzing would certainly conflict with that.


Edit: Backer forums will be different, cause we have CSE there to put an end to discussions. Not in the /close thread way, but by saying "folks all of this sounds good, but we decided to do it like this".

Originally posted by Ncrediblebulk
Originally posted by Rocketeer
Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by Rocketeer

What im trying to say is, if you backed this game based on the available information(especially on the kickstarter itself) then you have no reason to complain if we get a DaoC clone with much better crafting, modern graphics and more sandbox features like player built towns and keeps etc.

[mod edit]

Yeah they said its not DAoC 2, that doesn't mean any kind of stupid mechanic is fair game, might aswell have helicopters as mounts and make it turnbased? Cause its not DAoC 2 right?

Come on, its more than just the skeleton. How many RvR games with 3 sides and non mirrored classes that are based on arthurian legends are there? I mean sure, we could pretend it will be a completely novel game bearing no resemblance to any game ever made, like maybe by the same person. Sure we could tell us that, but who would we be kidding? Also DAoC is owned by EA, so obviously CU will not be DAoC 2 because thats a lawsuit waiting to happen.

And yes, DAoC players that backed the game are more important than non DAoC that did not back the game. If your a backer we should renew this discussion on the founders forums once they open, but i don't see the point in discussing game mechanics or direction at this point in time with people who as likely as not didn't even back the game.

Prefacing my reply with the fact that first, I'm a backer, and secondly, I am a former Daoc player.

The fact you would suggest this conversation only take place on the backers forum because of the notion that someone who didn't back the game couldn't offer a good idea as to potential systems or the direction of the game is elitist. Statements like this are one of the biggest reasons people are turned away from this game right now. Trolls are going to troll but just because someone didn't put money into this game you and I have doesn't in any way mean they don't have good input. It would be beneficial to the game and the entire community to alter your view.

I'll adjust and play this game no matter what combat system they end up using but I feel a game where the focus is PvP, is going to have to focus more on player skill and not who has better RNG numbers while tab targeting.

There is a time and place for things and this and now is neither. Also its not elitist to discuss procedures with those it affects instead of a wider public. There is a community around CU, at this point in time this community consists of founders and noone else. MJ has to take their opinions into consideration, not some kind of wider consensus among MMO gamers in general.

This might need some getting used to, but this is not your usual MMO discussion about a game thats basicly done. This is about making a game, that in most part only exists on a drawingboard. And that requires focus. Not consensus, not compromises, and not a bazillion different ideas and "lets just implement both" approaches.

Anyway im not saying not to discuss things, just pointing out that for that discussion to have an effect on development it needs to happen in a closed circle, like backers. Its pointless if there are 90% of people in favor of some idea, but none of them are backers. This forum is notorious for people discussing features of games they have no intention of ever playing.

Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by Rocketeer

What im trying to say is, if you backed this game based on the available information(especially on the kickstarter itself) then you have no reason to complain if we get a DaoC clone with much better crafting, modern graphics and more sandbox features like player built towns and keeps etc.

[mod edit]

Yeah they said its not DAoC 2, that doesn't mean any kind of stupid mechanic is fair game, might aswell have helicopters as mounts and make it turnbased? Cause its not DAoC 2 right?

Come on, its more than just the skeleton. How many RvR games with 3 sides and non mirrored classes that are based on arthurian legends are there? I mean sure, we could pretend it will be a completely novel game bearing no resemblance to any game ever made, like maybe by the same person. Sure we could tell us that, but who would we be kidding? Also DAoC is owned by EA, so obviously CU will not be DAoC 2 because thats a lawsuit waiting to happen.

And yes, DAoC players that backed the game are more important than non DAoC that did not back the game. If your a backer we should renew this discussion on the founders forums once they open, but i don't see the point in discussing game mechanics or direction at this point in time with people who as likely as not didn't even back the game.

Originally posted by Axxar
I like the idea of ressing them where they fell to make reinforcement harder. I think using "mana" is fine for the spell, however. I think it's needlessly complicated to have a separate resource for ressing. I think that surely cast time and mana cost can be adjusted to prevent ressing from being a no-brainer rather than casting other spells, such as heals and buffs.

The problem in warhammer was healer standing on the keepwalls outside LoS/range of the enemies ressing people. It WAS a nobrainer. The reason i didn't just say require LoS to dead player is because its usually pretty easy to LoS the enemies while having a LoS the dead player you want to rez, especially if there is a melee going on below the keep walls.

Don't get me wrong, i was a healer and that was loads of fun, but it turned the battles into a whack-a-mole like i said because with keeps and barricades and stuff you have no way to get to the healers. Its essentially like this:

H ### W:W ### H

With H being healer and W being the close combat classes(lets call em warriors), # would be impassible terrain or simply distance. The ### are about max healing range, theoretically archers could attack the healers but they would need to be ontop of the W brawl and the H could extremely easily LoS them behing some keep tower or stuff.

If in such a situation the healers only need mana to res ... the fights can become extremely drawn out, whack-a-mole essentially. The problem essentially is that once the close combat guys die you can't force the guys on the keep wall into combat, so if they rez the close combat guys as they die they can essentially regroup in the safety of the keep and then storm out again.

One solution would be rez where they die with penalty, another would be only allowing short range rez i guess. Still the whole one healer can bring back a whole field of corpses in a min or two sits sour with me, i got the feeling MJ wanted combat be more decisive. I.e. the looser looses, and the winner wins period. Not some "gee we lost our whole warband defending our keep, meet back at our keep in 5 min all buffed up folks" kind of play.

This is interesting. To find out how rezzing should work, we should first look at how it doesn't.

For example i remembered in Warhammer that you could rez people up onto walls of keeps that you where defending. I.e. if a keep was under siege the reinforcements could easily get to them by dieing somewhere near the walls.

Personally i thought that was an issue, its not a siege if you can't stop people going into the keep. So personally i think a rezz should at minimum:

1. Occur at place of death.

2. Involve a movement penalty(root) to prevent people slowly inching towards the walls on their gums so to speak.

3. Be a significiant investment for the healer, to help with 2. i.e. discourage pointless rezzing.


Personally i would like to see rezz take a different resource. Lets say you have a "healer", the "healer" uses "mana" for heals and buffs and stuff. But for certain powerful spells, like rezzes he needs a different resource, lets call it "light balls". Now how "light balls" are aquired ... lots of way, could be through casting spells on enemies, friendlies, or simply a time based thing like you aquire 1 "light ball" per minute and can store up to 4 "light balls"(should be different way for different healers, to get more factional diversity).

That way rezz would become more tactical and fights less of a whack-a-mole where people you just offed keep standing up like zombies with the regeneration perk. You also could have powerful spells compete for this secondary resource, i.e. reward people with more heals and stuff for forgoing the option to rezz.

Originally posted by Teh_Axi
Originally posted by Rocketeer

We'll since apparently they are the ones paying for the development of the game ... i'd say they get it their way.

Yeah because they are the only people who where allowed to back the Kickstarter. The fact is trying to please DAoC diehards is the worst thing for CU, as they say "You can't teach an old dog new tricks".

Its not about who was allowed to back it, but about those who actually did. Ofc not everyone of those was a DaoC fan, i for one was not. But i agreed with the principle ideas of a DoaC like game without PvE. I think many others who backed the game felt similar, furthermore there was no indication this would be completely different kind of a game compared to DaoC sans the no pve part.

What im trying to say is, if you backed this game based on the available information(especially on the kickstarter itself) then you have no reason to complain if we get a DaoC clone with much better crafting, modern graphics and more sandbox features like player built towns and keeps etc. The rest, like 3 factions, non mirrored classes etc ... that kinda reminds me a bit of DaoC, atleast as far as i remember it.

Originally posted by Ellya
Hmm, how about a lock-on system, where you have to aim, but once you have your target you can lock on to it? That could be the compromise between aim and tab?

Just imho, but compromises hurt games. Whats next, should we add some PvE instances and raids as a compromise for those who don't want to pvp? Where do we stop with the compromises? When you are satisfied? When everyone is satisfied?

Personally i'd say we go all in, RvR like camelot, crafting like minecraft(light), fluidity of combat like WoW(many MMOs still fail at this) and controls like your standard MMO with tab based targeting(like warhammer, friend and foe at same) and lots of hotbars. Success will be determined through picking the right skill in the right situation, positionals and use of reactives as well as planning through your fight(i do this, then that, and then hopeflly he will ...).

Now don't get me wrong, im fully in favour of adding a aimbased class in an later expansion or something if there is a demand. But we should first get the basics down, which are imho the ones above. Once the basics are down and working well, sure why not we can add all kinds of exciting stuff. But lets not try to dance on two different balls at a time.

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