For those of you that have played the pen and papper game WoD. You know that White WOLF created a system called Resourceses You had a number from 1-5.

So why not apply this to MMOS, it would solve all the Farming problems as, you would no longer be able to trade Money or items.

The downside is OFC that all items need a set price by the developers. So the Market would be controlled and not open. But this would Eliminate all scams also so, might not be so bad.

When you buy things the game calculates in the backgrund and when you bought or sold enough your Resources score would go up or down.

We would no longer need a BOP or BOE system as when when used that item you just sell it to the set number it gives you and your Resources score will be adjusted.

You would still be able to accumulate more welth by selling more things on the market you would just dont have any controll off how mush each item Costs.

Its not a super perfect system but it would stop all third party sellers of igame items and still let people buy and sell stuff to one another. Just to a set market price.

So no more market scams and no more Farmers, and still be able to sell and become wealthier.

Trading would be dissabled as evry transaction needs to adjust your Resource score. But a disscount betwen guildes could be worked in to make guilde to guilde cheeper for the players and also less lucrative. also Hard to reach places could at to the cost of the item making it better to sell there.

But at its core it would fix many problems that plauge the genre today..

Originally posted by Elikal

 

What you say is all true. Deleting non-fun parts did NOT mean to make a game hyper hyper fast, or easy and quick to attain everything. I think those people are purposefully misreading what I say. I often enough critizised LOTRO because levelling was to fast. It is funny how people follow my every post and quote me against myself ever so often, do not seem to care a damn what I said so often otherwise. From some here I am sure it is personal misgivings, but such is life.

Deleting non fun does NOT mean making a game easier. There are still challanges, difficult and long time taking things. BUT: they are there when YOU want, not when some game mechanics force you to. Downtime is a forced slowness, and people should decide their own pace, fast or slow, and not be artifiicially slowed down. Example is travelling. When I WANT to experience slow travel and dangerous travel, that is ok. But I dont want to be FORCED every time to slow, dangerous travel, when at that time my goal is to group with some people and NOT spent 30 min in some travel experience. It is about what you chose, not that the game forces you. Same with downtimes. They serve no purpose. When I want to take things slower, I can always do so by my decision. I dont need a game mechanics like mana regen to slow me down. Or death penalities. When you WANT a penality, go on, delete your items. No one hinders you. But I just dont want to be hindered by stone-age gaming rules.

Yeah yeah, I know games from days when there was no ingame maps either. When I had a cashload of chequered paper with maps and another heap of paper with quest notes. But those days are done, and games are not more fun, when we return to 1985 gaming ideology.

I really respect some people desire a game to be harsh. But you have to accept that you are extremists and a niche within a niche within a niche. Kinda like religious zealots. Free society means you can be free, but dont force your religious game zeal of hardcoreness on the rest. You can penalize and whip yourself in a game, if that heightens your sense of accomplishment, but you should respect the world has moved on from that way of acting, as it has moved on from things like women robbing or slavery.

So the gaming Industry has moved on has it? and we the Religious zealots should just back of and not try to put a slave collar on your neck is that what you wanted to say?

Well If you want a game that has no reason to group, no reason to chatt and no reason to socialize what so ever. Then hell yes ltest use those Idees off yours.

You want no death penenlties, with nothing to lose I can just throw myself into anything, so what if I died? I took 3 of them with me and they wont have time to respawn untill I get back up and finish the last three. No death penalty means taking away all Risk, fun game.. Many single player games Like the new Prince of persia game took this route, to me I could just watch a movie instead as there was no challenge left. You just go thru the motions like watching a movie.

And Eliminating all the non FUn parts might look to you to be something good. But to a Writer or a director that would be total fail. You need downtime to build up the excitement. IF its just endless fun, the Fun soon becomes boring ( that is how the human mind works) and one of the Reasons WAR was sush a failure, they owerworked it.

Now styling out your Avatar is always fun but hardly necessary  to make a good game ( I had tons of fun playing MOONSTONE for example, you are probably to young to remember but that was one hell of a game back in the day)

Personal story, yes In a sandbox typ of game you can, just like In Real life you can make your own story come true and others will learn about you. It wont happen for everyone but humans arnt made that way, some have to succeed but others also have to fail. Its like what the agent said in the First matrix movie " the first Matrix was a perfect world but you humans could not grip it as your minds constantly serch for flaws" Just like in real life MMOS need winners and loosers sad fact not everyone can be the super hero they want to be.....

Story driven by the Developers have to end someplace, are you gona stop playing when it dose and wait for the next update?? I still say that you are the Next generation MMOer and not an Oldschool one, You expect others to entertain you, and you dont like making your own fun, being it a lack of imagination or just lazyness, many younger people suffer from this in our current sociaty. Mush like a single player Gamer who, in lack of any good games coming out to the PC had to make the Transition to MMOS and now want that Experince here. My advice is buy an XboX 360 or PS3 or both and play single player games. I think you will have mush more fun there.

Originally posted by PatchDay

It appears I've given the EVE players the impression I am incapable of making ISK. You know what- that is kinda true. I ahte making ISK in this game. I find the static pve content very dull. 'Ratting' is something I've done for yrs along with some trading,etc and I dont find it much fun.

 

Much rather pvp. But alas, I am forced to PVE. So I am already doing something I hate to do. Worse, this game economy is getting outrageous due to several player driven factors like others have pointed out. Such as moon minerals, hacks, cheats, and just general accumulation of wealth

This is driving up prices like crazy.

 

Funny, the tech 1 side of things is quite reasonable. Gasp! I know why- players have much less influence on the costs of Tech 1 items. Almost any player can build himself a Tech 1 ship and we dont rely on 'Alliances' to provide these materials. We can get them ourselves

 

Tech 2 items are a different story. Huge powerblocs control this and see- most can agree its the players that's really screwing us.

 

No matter how you look at it. Cheats, Hacks, or just plain greed is ruining these ingame economies

 

 

I really loved Guild Wars enforced ceilings for items

 

you understood when you joined EVE that it was a PVP game on all lvls right? you PVP in the market also if you missed that lolz. just donsent look to me that you are playing. But you are rather here, throwing out statements.

Now join a real alliance if you want to PVP for example. the one im In, in dont PVP mush, but those that do have corp insured ships making it mush less of a loss to you if you get shoot down. If you cant suport yourself on your own you need to join an alliance that suports you NO?

we suport up to capitals so you know. I dont lose that mush ISK if I get shoot down on PVP ops so like me I sugest you join a real pvp alliance that Insurse losses. or go Carebare and stay In EMPIRE and pvp on the market..

The thing about EvE is adapt adapt adapt or get THe F out...

Originally posted by PatchDay

What are people thought's on player run economy?

Let's take a look at EVE Online which has one of the most advanced economies.

 

And like a real economy, over the years I have seen prices rise higher and higher for ships. I am now paying bout 55% more for tech 2 ships that I did previously. And recall- if you get this ship blown up you gotta go buy another. Ouch!

 

Where are people getting all this ingame money to buy this stuff????

 

IT's gotta be due to all these macros and cheats. I know in EVE, there is now a macro so advanced, it will farm everything for you and even hide your ship if another player might possibly attack.

 

I'm starting to think player run economy = GET SCREWED BY OTHER PLAYERS 24/7!

 

I guess for you WoW players the equivalent would be Auction House for rares. I dont know bout now but I remember pre-Battlegrounds we saw insane prices for tradeable rare Epics.

Really sucks that players can accumulate all this ingame money from hacks, cheats, farmers, etc. Ruins the game for other players indirectly and we dont even realize how bad we're all getting screwed over by cheaters

Where have you been?? the Reason T2 is going up is that they pluged an Exploit that made it cheep to build them. when CCP stoped it we all predicted the prices would rise? did you miss that lolz? 

Second where are you in the World you can take down lvl 4 missions in Empire kinda easy and that is a solid 35-40m risk free if you slavage and sell. also if you are ratting or moon mining or manafacturing or Trading with any skills in 0,0 you can bring in 100m in a few hours. Dosent look to me that you are even playing EVE...

Originally posted by Grenadier

Originally posted by SpittDragons

These are a few of the things I would like to see the MMO genre attempt to do.

• Attempt an MMO with no levels that is balanced and still has some form of progression.

Like Ultima Online or Darkfall.

• Attempt a collection MMO similar to Pokemon where players collect and battle with other creatures.

Like Atlantica Online or Wizard 101.

• Attempt an MMO in first person shooter set in space or WW3 setting.

Like Tabula Rasa, Huxley, or even Jumpgate.

• Create Feudal Japan setting rather than the middle age old english knights settings.

Like 9 Dragons or dozens of other Asian F2P games.

• Attempt a MMO game with out stats on gear.

The Chronicles of Spellborn

• Attempt a game with 3 types of content each as rewarding as the other. Hardcore Core and Casual.

WoW got pretty close as I remember in TBC.

 

Lots of games have already done exactly what you're asking.

But we are talking Western developers here, F2P games is, hmm how should I put it a money grab from the Developers. its like the micro loans you can get over the phone a way to make cash of the player. I cant call these real games im sorry.

We need inovation that is for sure and the Developers are lacking in it big time, WOW = Lotro = WAR = AOC = Yawn.. okey AOC could have been a great game if they released it a year later...

and Tabula rasa was a bad game, so also was Darkfall as it had to little budget and jumpgate should never been done, sorry Net devil I allready know you will fail...

Acually im getting Bored of being right haha, when all these games where in develpment, Tabula Rasa, Darfall, Vanguard I said after taking a fast look at what they where doing, Im talking about when they started to make it now. I said THE WILL FAIL and i havent been wrong once...

second I said AOC and WAR will be a mess if they realase it like this and lets hope they can keep even half of thier subscribers, this was when I was in there Beta, nobody listened and what was it A FAIL.

I soo soo Tired of being right that its not fun anymore.

now future predictions, and remember I said this..

MORTAL = FAIL, they just dont have the money, great idee if I had a Billion swedish crowns I would give it to them so they could make the next gen MMO but sadly I do not so we have to list this on the FAIL list. If EA or Actavison or UBI SOFT want a hit mmo on thier hands give your money to these Devs please.

STAR TREK ONLINE = Might be good IF they dont realses it to soon, I expect they will and then its another FAIL

CHAMPIONS ONLINE = FAIL, they might bring a super game but that wont help them, Superhero MMOS are not HOT right now, we been feed just to mush of it on the big screen and it just dosent feel fresh to me.

THE OLD REPUBLIC = FAIL, sorry Starwars fans but I just cant see this going anywhere, All this talk about story, and setting it in the time that they have NO I dont feel it. Just like I dident feel the last three Starwars movies, horribal Lucas crushed all the myth in those last three movies. Made me cry that he said he made it for his doughters, did he think girls even like starwars? or even know what makes a good Scfi Movie? Lucas arts have also brought only subpar games over the years trying to cash in on the franshise. Maybe Bioware can save it but, the hole we have come up with the Third wheel " that is Story"  got me spooked that they are way way off base of what the MMO public wants or needs.

JUMPGATE = as I said before its a FAIL.

I hope Im wrong about my predictions,  But sadly I dont think im going to Bee. 

All in all I see myself playing EVE for the next 5 years untill the industry finaly catches on and start to understand what the PUBLIC realy wants.

Originally posted by Elikal

 

First, since when has challange anything to do with a timesink? In a MMo the only way you can penalize a player is in the end a timesink. There is no other way, outside of sending some bullies to his home. Every single penality in a MMO is in the end a timesink. And waiting, or repeating the same task again, to regain lost XP or money is not a challange. It challanges maybe your patience to do repetitive tasks. Challanging can be the battle itself, the strategy. A penality doesnt make a game a drat more challanging.

Second, it is idealistic to assume, a sandbox game would make every have his personal story. Most people just went on hunting and didnt care rats ass about story whatsoever. Stories need a frame, a background. Behind that story nirvana of a pure sandbox, only very few people would actually take the hassle to make a story. Most players will just feel in a void. And while that was enough for me once, I am not longer so easy satisfied as to be dropped in some world and then "good luck and see for yourself".

Its clear now that you might never have played a SANDBOX game.

To clear up what happens in sandbox games I will have to make a an example: In EvE alliance X is fighting alliance Y, they are both player controlled and they want the same space, the same moons and the same Rats to shoot. So they go out to war, In this war they loose ships, For guess what!  the death penalty in EvE is you get destroyed and you lose all your Gear, and you might even get killed. Now what this dose is alliance X and Y will need more ships and weapons to prolong the war( just like in IRL) so they buy from alliance A and B. Also alliance F is good at transporting stuff so they get Hired by X to diliver thier goods to them.  Now this is totaly player controlled, we dident need a Dev story to come up with this, but It would never have happend if we dident have that HARSH death penalty. You see what im getting at here, also X and Y would probably never have gone to War in the first place, if the items they make would last forever. SO by creating a Harsh death penalty you make the game work mush like IRL, This to me is a truly spectacular game worth my time.

But most people might just want to spend thier time going to the Zoo or the Themepark, good for them but , for me I might aswell fire up my PS3 or my Xbox 360 and play a solo game. Most of them are mush better when it comes to PVE content and they bring me mush more enjoyment if its the Story im after.

ps: What makes the story in EvE is that after the battle is over, one two years later people will still remember and talk about it. a Story made by the players, see what I mean. Reading about how spyies take down crops and wars that have lasted for years, finaly came to an end is what makes a sandbox game so great. The player Holds the History of the game in thier hands, not in "in 2006 we raided this dungeon but by 2007 the Epic gear I got became Obsolete, so I had to raid this new Dungeon the Devs came up with". No NO NOOO! In eve its "2006 a mayor battle whent down betewen alliance X and Y and when it ended all of the southern parts of space had changed hands. Many Pilots lost Billions if ISK and one of the alliance leaders got shoot down in his Titan, the first to ever fall to an enemy fleet.  or "did you hear about those dudes who spent a year as Spyies in that corp and then when they had enough trust, stoole everything" 

ALL im saying is a Sanbox and harsh death penalties can open up a whole new world. Dont sell yourself short on Themepark rides that dont leave you with anything but fancy gear when the day is over..

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

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Originally posted by Zlayer77 
That is WoW for you instant gratification, works good on little kidds and lazy people.

 

And to the OP dumbing down games and eliminating the non-fun part as you say, has not proven to be a success story for games like WAR, who are losing subs daily. Games need none fun parts, that makes the Fun parts just so mush more rewarding when they do come.
Look at a good movie or a good Book, the suspence builds up mush like on a rollercoster then when it reaches its Climax, the Reward for reading or watching it becomes mush mush more rewarding trust me.....

---

 

Odd that you can correctly point out the non-fun element of Chess, yet you can't point out the (somewhat obvious) ways WAR fails to be fun.

Non-fun comments are typically aimed at excessive timesinks, rather than timesinks which are necessary for gameplay reasons. Eliminating all timesinks would be going overboard, and would make a game more shallow. Eliminating only the excessive timesinks maintains game depth while eliminating tedium - and that's the ideal solution.

Because of this, there's no worry of games being devoid of the rollercoaster's climactic climb to the top. That will exist even in games who strive to eliminate non-fun aspects.

Have you played WAR? to me the game became a repetative BOOR, as I spamed Battlegrounds to lvl all day to lvl. You could argue that I could have gone and done something ells in the world but when I knew that it would take me longer the level that way its just felt wrong.  Many things the Devs tried to to with WAR was fun in concept but not so fun when it came to actuall gamplay. PUBLIC quest for example just running into an area and starting to Hack stuff up and then get a reward migth sound good on papper, but gathering up and talking to people before doing something ,might look like a time sink, what  It acually did was build comunity. I have never felt so lonly as i did when I played WAR, im a social person and the game just dident do it for me.  

Originally posted by Elikal

About the "elimination of no-fun" we have discussed a lot of times. I understand better not to try to persuade anyone here to feel otherwise. That is a matter of preferrence. All I say is a) that *I* don't see sense in any of it and b) indepentently future MMOs will have less to none of it.

Death needs no penality. It IS the penality. You have failed in your task and must enter the house/dungeon/forest again. Penalizing it further with XP loss, items decay asf does not make me avoid it more than it does already. I dont think anyone can play a character a certain time and not feel so connected to him emotionally, that by nature a player does not already avoid death as best as he can. I just dont see that. Insofar death is a natural occurance in a MMO, and thus penalizing it extra means penalizing people to play their games. Also, for simple reasons, people will go to games with less harsh penalities, and like a Darwinisitc system, these penalities will just die out. Every new generation of games had less of it, like it or not, and the new ones we see all have practically none at all.

 

As the the world and personal story. After so many years I just can't play this EQ type MMO anymore. It was great for the past years, but I have outgrown it, like I have outgrown the sandbox. (The literal one, not the proverbial!) Today I want to be entertained, I want drama, story-arcs, connected events, personalized events (see LOTRO-books). I am no longer happy with "here you are dropped in a world with 5000 quests, now good luck". And my feeling tells me that is an entertainment form of the past. Thats not to say enough companies will not try. But you get a glimpse of it, when you look at the Deathknight in WOW. It is a lot about personal story of one class, an experience not shared by any other class, told in dramatic scenes and with story-climax, and so much unlike the sterile, old fashioned Fedex quests "go fetch 20 of X". People just enjoy such personalized, dramatized things,  the Deathknight was a very popular thing in WOW, and you will see much more in future developments. Yes that has something of single player games, but it does not rule out cooperation. I understand for some who cling to the simple old EQ sort of MMOs it is difficult to imagine. But it is the future, of that I am certain, and one day people will look back to cookie cutter quests like we do on texts on stone tablets.

You are way off here. Many people like a challenge you know..  I can take a few single player games as an example.. Ninja Gaiden.. this is a Hardcore game for elit players and it got world praise for not making it easy on the player. Assassins Creed a solid game but it got a lot of shit for being to Easy, you could counter everything taking away the exitment. And in its second intallement they have made mayor improvments to make the game harder.. Guards now serch for you when you hide in a haystack, they counter your countermoves, and work better in groups. If gamers wanted it easier they would have gone the other way dont you think??
 

Also take WoW do you think Raiding was Easy in that game, hahah let me laugh, it was hard from the start and then Blizzard slowly nerf it down so everyone can get to it. But when Nax and other raids came out they WHERE NOT EASY. Many people seam to think that getting full Epic raid gear only took time, it also too alot of group cordination and skill. WoW might bave been easy to lvl to max but raiding in the old days where hard.

Outgrowing the Sanbox, have you also outgrown your Imagination?? the Sandbox is about the players dreaming up there own destiny and making the stroy about them. The thing that got me to play MMOs where the feeling of being able to make an impact ont he game I was playing. Taking castles in linage2 or fighting over 0,0 space in EvE against other players, and making a name for my Guild and Corp was the fun parts of playing an MMO.

MMO should be about the players, sadly the growing Piracy on the net have made more and more PC gamers, that just played single player games before. Get forced into playing MMOs because this is among the last types of games that are still being developed for the PC. So people that realy dont want to control space or conquer lands are coming into this genre and they want a single player game to play. And they are now trying to force the MMO market to make games for them. No grouping and Fun things like in a single player game. They Want the ride.

My sugestion to those people are get a Playstation 3 or a an XBOX 360 and leave the MMOs to the people with a litle Imagination.

Ps: from your post im douting wery mush that you even where around in the OLD days of MMOing if you where you should remember the comunities, that to me is what mmos are about, ITs Massive MULTIPLAYER Online ROLE PLAYING GAME.. Many developers nowadays seam to think it should read MSOG = Massive Single player Game...

COMUNITY I cant stress this enough, even the worst game can keep you entertained if the COmuntity is good.

Originally posted by Axehilt

 

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Originally posted by Ihmotepp
5. Elimininating non-fun eliminates depth, which in the long run makes the game less fun. In EQ I used to think this is ridiculous waiting so long to regain mana, learn spells, etc. But playing 5 minutes of WoW was not more fun, it was 10 times less because not waiting meant less reliance on each other, less depth of play. Downtime, and many other features,  seems like no fun, but actually adds imensly to the game in the long run. But sure for the masses, WoW is great.

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You are wrong.

Definition of Game Depth:
"A multiplayer game is deep if it is still strategically interesting to play after expert players have studied and practiced it for years, decades, or centuries." -David Sirlin (source)

Chess doesn't have non-fun elements, yet it is a deep game.

Street Fighter 2 wasn't bogged down with non-fun elements, yet it was a relatively deep fighting game.

In short, non-fun elements (especially the ones you quote) have absolutely no relevance to a game's depth.

It's fine if you personally enjoy some of the fun-ruining aspects of early MMOs, but to claim that they made a game deeper is wrong. If you want to discuss which specific aspects of MMO gameplay actually make a game deep or not, that's fine, but harsh death penalty certainly isn't one of them. Nor is the majority of downtime (because only a minimal amount of downtime is required to cause a game to be deep - and often this downtime can be approached in superior ways.)

Chess actually has downtime when you are thinking about your moves http://www.chessbase.com/images2/2004/dannemann/dannmann08.jpg 

So Chess if it was an MMO would become a game like EvE that has lots of nonfun elements to it, sorry but not many people find Chess fun as it involves to mush thinking.

On the other hand many people enjoy this as it dosent have mush downtime at all images.wnec.edu/SpringfieldAreaPhoto3(RollerCoster).jpg . That is WoW for you instant gratification, works good on little kidds and lazy people.

And to the OP dumbing down games and eliminating the non-fun part as you say, has not proven to be a success story for games like WAR, who are losing subs daily. Games need none fun parts, that makes the Fun parts just so mush more rewarding when they do come.

Look at a good movie or a good Book, the suspence builds up mush like on a rollercoster then when it reaches its Climax, the Reward for reading or watching it becomes mush mush more rewarding trust me.....

Sadly MMOs in the later days have become dress up games. If you compare it to real life people are compeating about what cars they drive and who has the biggest Flat screen TV.

So for many watching your Avatar in 3rd person is the most imoportant thing, as that is the way they mesure progression lol.

I play EvE and many people state the reason they dont like it is becuase they cant see an actual avatar in 3rd person. And watching a ship dosent do it for them... hahah

These are the kinds of people that have turned the MMO genre into what it is today a grind for shiny new gear. Gone are the days when new games where made as Sandboxes where the main focus was to fight other people.

Mortal is going for the Old school MMOer and frankly the 3rd person crowd is gona cry thier little hearts out the first time they get defeated and loos thier stuff. So the best thing is for them to just stay away...

Originally posted by Furyus

Are there any FPS forums where people acuse every new FPS of being a clone of some other highly successful FPS such as people do here with "WoW clone" ??

 

I'm just so confused by that statement all the time. MMO has become a genre... things are going to be similar from one title to the next. It's unavoidable.

Personally as a gamer who played this genre heaviest in mid to late 90's I always looked forward to the day when I had more than a handful of games to choose from. Back then it was like maybe 4 or 5 mainstream western titles and perhaps 10-15 asian titles. It was like Christmas anytime you found a new game to mess around on but now everyone is so... spoiled.

 

 

Blah.

Okey here goes EA sports NHL game have alot of diffrent reincarnation thru the years, but at its core its the same game, so we might call this a clone.
 

World of Warcraft has a basic system, you move with WSD, you have your mini map, spells/ablities etc. But you also have battlegrounds, PVe raids and so on. and you have a Level progression thru zones.

Now EvE is a totaly diffrent typ of game, you have no mini map, You equip your ship with items, rather then gain spells and ablities, have no classes and you dont level.

They are both Massive multiplayer games, but they play alot diffrently.

Warhammer online on the other hand have everything that wow has, and have just thrown in thier RvR combat ( not so diffrent to be called revolutionary and they have Public quest. But if you play both games you soon realize, they work almost 90% alike at thier core. 

Now I would call Warhammer a clone, they just dident bring anything new to the table that we had not seen before.

Then we have Age of Conan. This game has the minimap, it has levels, but its combat playes alot diffrently, no target system for example, also it has mounted combat, every class can use stealth. Instanced zones. You can climb, up Buildings and mountains,  And they did not have any Item focus at launch, they are changing this now but in the begining it was not gear dependent at all. They have new types of emotes like /lean, you can lean against buildings etc. in the PVP servers there are no safe zones after Tortage

Now I would not call  Agae of Conan a clone.

See the diffrence here, if you do not bring enough new content or innovation, you risk becoming a clone like warhammer did, and there subs are hurting right now because of it.

Originally posted by bstripp

Two things with this.  First is that I don't really care if the MMO is fair or not.  My point on doing the content is for the content's sake.  If it's not fun, I won't do it and won't buy past it unless there is a reasonable expectation that it will get better later in the game.  So from my perspective, there is no you and me.  There's me, my time, and money if I so choose to use it.  I make the assumption that you are fully capable of enjoying yourself or you wouldn't be there.  

With that said, I have talked at length on fairness.  Mind you only because I hope that people can see that spending one currency to get ahead; time, is no different than spending another currency to get ahead; money.  Both of them are things that everyone has in limited supply.  Assuming that we all are trying to get to some point, it would be more fair to either limit both players to a certain amount of time/money.

Now why is it not fair?  Because the constant between us is that our characters have existed for a certain amount of time in the game.  Say we each have subbed for two months, I will only have say 80 hours while you have 240.  Next two months the gulf widens.  Even though we started at the same point, you will race ahead of me because you have more currency than me.  I can do each of the examples you used above and sub in money.  

I can claim that you can spend the same as me, it will just take you longer to get the money to spend it.  See it's the same arguement.  We each can claim the other can legitimately achieve the same goals in game using the others limited currency.  What I can not do is convince you that my currency is better or worse than yours, since that is societal and personally based.

 

Well this all works out untill you get people like me, I work about 20 hours a week and earn a decent amount of money. So I both a have the time and the money to Invest in an online game. How will this work out when I start playing an RMT game like this. It would not be fair as I would dominate both typs of gamplay.
 

Iv tried this in IRL on diffrent typs of RMT games and the result is that I get stuff over that I can sell ( im not gona admit to doing anything illegal here but the  opportunity to make a fast IRL buck have presented itself on many occasion)

I could for one make a decent amount of IRL money per month in Entropida universe, I admit to this as its legal in that game.

I do still play EvE online for free and just sell ISK for game time cards. totaly legal also.

But RMT games at its current form dose not stop people from still selling under the table. If its cheeper from a 3rd party seller, people will still buy from them. And the transition, when its already  available in game is mush easier. That might lead to more people buying from a 3rd party seller if the service is available ingame. Customers are smart dont underestimate them, they will not buy if going over the River cuts the price in half.

That is why I said, yes maybe some sort of Hybrid will work out, but still it dosent solve the Issue with addiction and that Real money transaction games make for a mush more brutal environment. Scams,greifing and exploits are common place in many RMT games, try one like Silkroad for example and you will see what I mean.

Originally posted by bstripp

 

Forgive me for snipping some of your post, I kept the parts that are relevant to what I was saying.

The point that I think you are missing, is that both games are selling the same thing, content.  If they both do not have content that is engaging enough to the player base, then most players will move on.  Now we can argue what is engaging content, but that will differ for people depending on their game tastes.  Still they both are selling content, whether you are paying for a month at a time, or paying to heal, or paying for items.

Games that are stagnant usually loose players and die.  That's whether or not they are sub based or RMT based.  RMT games won't keep anyone without some decent game play to make your investment seem worthwhile.  While RMT games do try to incent you get into the item shop, that doesn't preclude them from rolling out good content on a regular basis.  If they don't, you stop buying potions, items, xp packs, whatever.

Frankly, I think the days of P2P and RMT only games will pass on and most games will move to a hybrid model.

Cheating or not, RMT is already in every major P2P game. I can buy anything in any game, be it characters, items, gold, or what not.  There is little that any dev can really do to stop it.  So it's already there, like it or not, in the games you play.  The first wave of games have experimented with RMT now and based on how they fare, others will take up the banner.  To not do so is leaving money on the table which is something that all but the biggest games can not really afford to do.

Pure RMT games seem to not really resonate with people nearly as much as some of the P2P games.  I've covered my opinoins on this earlier in the thread.  While you'll get a younger market, keeping those players will be difficult over the long haul.

So what does that leave you?  Expect to see a hybrid in most major games in the near future.  Eventually someone will get it right, and that will be new standard.  They'll figure out that they can offer RMT to compliment gameplay and make most parties feel satisfied.  That's my crystal ball gazing.

First of thank you for actually writing something worth reading, the Red text have started to hurt my eyes on these boards. And yes you have a point in the Hybrid typ of game.

Im not a fan of RMT and I think in its current form it is to dependent on getting its costomers to visit the item shop, and I also think that addiction risk is high, and some people will just spend to mush money then is healthy.

Still many companies feel that getting thier IP stolen and sold by a third party Industry has to stop. And one thing that might stop this is making the service available ingame. Some have tried like EvE with some success to combat the ingame money sellers. If companies in the future could get the costomer to spend the money they today put into third party hands, game developers would get even more money to develop the game with.

But many of those involved in RMT today, do not give out quality products, they are in it for the money, some might be okey but many are realy bad. So for RMT to break thru to the mainstream market we realy need another way then what is implemented today. So maby we will get that perfect Hybrid who knows only time will tell.

ps: this post is an answer to Bstripp, I realy dont need it splatterd in Read texts thank you, that calls me jealous and a biggot.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Zlayer77

 

I see no real point in going down this road with you Orthedos, as you argue for the sake of argument. Where did I say that F2p games are inferior?  You just said that P2P games need bring out content, F2P games need not, why don't F2P games need no content? You are wrong.  Games are for fun, and if it is fun enuf, $15 is not much.  In order for a F2P game to attract ppl, they need to offer something similar, not just something free. I just pointed out the subscription games need to bring out content so they can keep thier fanbase happy. If they do not they lose subs and for them that means money..  Sub games need content while F2P games need no content is your own myth.

RMT/ free to play games on the other hand do not have to bring out content to keep people playing as the game IS " free to play" its dosent cost you a penny to download and play it for free. So thier focus if they want food on the table is to come up with ideas to get people to use thier cash shops.  people will play a F2P game without content or fun just b/c the game is free?  they are beggars?  time is free?  no one can afford $15 a month so they will brainlessly play F2P games with no content?

this is simple logic, you dont agree with this? if you do not what do you think Free to play games make thier money from, Adverts ingame? on thier sites? what? please enlighten me and tell me what if not the cash shop makes the RMT game go round?  No that is no logic, that is your wild claim, another unsubstantiated wild claim.  Do you know that when Flagship was developing hellgate london, they offered a f2p game that is generally acclaimed as better than hellgate london itself?  No don't asl me to proof anything, I am not the one trying to sell hot air.  You tell me, you are trying to tell us RMT is all evil, I have no idea why RMT is so much a concern, why having fun playing whatever you want is not even mentioned.  According to the retroactive theorisation called demonstrated preference or revealed preference, if someone is willing to pay, he is having enuf fun to part with his money,  He is having fun, and you make it your crusade to stop it.  Tell me your are not a sour jealous ...

Now about gambling and your post about that I know to little to make any counter arguments against that so I just let it go.. also I saw no point in going off topic anymore then we need to.  It is not offtopic, it proves how innocent or deliberately vile you are.  You want to stop ppl from wasting money, you choose to bug F2P games, even tho the much much bigger villain is gambling.  I feel you have an agenda against F2P games with RMT, and your concern for ppl overspending is a lie, a mask, an excuse.

And you say you cant make nothing out of it.. well most people probably can that bother to see the logic in it and are not here just to try and shoot holes in everyhting.  Your logic?  You confuse logic and views!  Your logic, ok your logic is your view is your logic.  Ok your logic.  No more comments.

Now in the future the best games out thier might be free to play once, who am I to say.. but I can say that we probably probably, ok probably will, means probably will not.  and this is a valid ground to run around screaming.  You do not even have an assessment how probably is this probably will spend alot more money if the Free to play game becomes the standard. Why do I think this? what proff can I offer to the table that. free to play games cost more then p2p. Well I spent alot more cash playing entropida universe then I ever did playing WoW. ah now I see, you failed to exercise control and you think everyone else is stupid.  someone walk pass a sign board labelled danger fall down a hole and he start telling everyone signboards are not enuf to stop ppl from jumping down holes  I also earned alot more money playing Entropida then I did WoW, I dident make a cent playing wow hehe, but a made a few thousand bucks playing Entropida.

In the end it comes down to the player, those that are willing to pay extra or be lured into, or go willingly to cash shops to make thier online experiance better, and those that want to have control and know exacly how mush they are going to spend each month.  how about those players who ignore your considerations and go for gameplay, choosing games they like to play and not endlessly worrying about RMT.

I for one see many pitfalls and dangours with the RMT games, some of you dont, in the end we are left with a choice, play them or scip them.. you decide.  Ok you took a big round about way to say, you are smart we are not.  Cool you are smart, none of my damn business.

Ok smart guy you run out of reasoning.  Or you never have any reasoning.  Enough said.

HAHAHA.. man Im amazed you could come up with so mush Bulshit in one thread. you just bash bash and then bash some more. If I where a punching bag I would be a bloody mess right now.

You are attacking me with no actuall argument why RMT is not what I say but you focus on other stuff, not relevent to the discussion. You call me vile because I said I had to little experince with Real gambling to answer that post of yours?? When i ask what you thought made the cash games go round you call me jealous??

This is the reason I made my crap post in the begining there is no way to have a discussion with you,  Because if I say B and expect C you say F... thier is just no way of talking to a person like that.. You have a strange way off putting up counter arguments, saying people are dreaming and are jealouse and Racist is a poor way of getting your views across. Im done with this now wont waste any more time trying to arguee with you hehe, You win RMT is SUPER LETS all head to the ITEM SHOP tonight..... hahaha

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by Zlayer77

Originally posted by Orthedos

Zlayer: you need to exercise economy.

A long long long long passage, which can easily be summaried by Mr Milton Friedman's famous sentence.

"There is no free lunch".

So?  Where are you heading to?

 

Subscription games need to make good content ( like a good magazine needs good articals) to keep peodople subscribing.  Really so no P2P games are bad?  Why?  They are good just because they are P2P?  Darkfall is good?  TB is good?  Gods and Heroes will be good if perpetual do not pull the plug.  Maybe you are telling me that white people are better because they are white? hmm, You argue in sush a strange way im finding it hard to know what to say? that  sentence means spelled out in a simple way. THat if I have a Subscription game and fail to deliver what my audiance wants, they will stop buying my product. So my number one priority has to be to make the content better then the competition. Many p2p games fail here and lose subs and some of them like Tebula Rasa gets shut down.

On the other hand I cant find anything in it that sugest all P2P games are good? I cant find anything in it that states that white people are better because they are white? dont know where you came to that conclusion.  

RMT games only need a smart and subtle way to get as many people into the cash shop as possible.  So all players playing F2P games are so stupid they will always buy whatever crap being sold? Dident I say they need to be subtle?? Still free to play games also need good content but its not a win or break thing for them. If people quit the game is still free and they havent lost anything. But if you join a free to play game and never use the cash shop they lose, see the logic here? As I mentioned before Developers arnt  Philanthroics, They are here to make money? do you agree?

That is when the Devs are sitting at the round table. The subscription based games makers are disucussing what do we need to do make people stay and not quit. As then they will lose money. The free to play game makers are mostly discussing how do we make more people use the cash shop. because if people arnt using them we are going broke.  You have been in those meetings?  Show me notes of meetings.  Do not dream and then murmur it here as it they are facts. As a mther off fact I have im not gona go into it here but I have been in meatings where discussions about how to make RMT vs Subscription work. And the facts that iv drawn are that Subsrciption made MMOS need to compeat with content and RMT needs to find ways to get people to buy items ingame, now those items can be argued are actually content, but the RMT game needs you to get them to be able to pay for services, sush as game servers to keep the game running and salleries for thier employees.

This Orthedos is the diffrence betewen a sub game and a free to play one....  No No those are just your dreams.  None of them are real facts. You are smoking something am I right? you acataully think that RMT game makers are Philanthropists dont you lolz

Ps: if you are gona point out more remaks about races and stuff to counter my arguments please dont reply to this post, just looks like your are reaching for straws as you know I hit the nerv :) 
 

Originally posted by Orthedos

You have established no models.

You say F2P games need ways to keep people paying.  So they need revenue, they need someone to buy something.  So what?  Does it automatically follow that F2P games always tries to sell bad stuffs?  F2P players are stupid they must buy stupid things?

You say P2P games must bring out content to keep people playing.  That P2P games must be better?  Really?  So the DF players are paying monthly sub on a good game, just because it is P2P?

What are those 2 lines above?  Your views.

Then you tell us why you selected P2P games.

From 2 views you jump to one decision.  That is just a narration of your views and your decision.  It does not even tell us how RMT must be inferior.  While many people here show you some RMT games are nice and they are enjoying it, while there are independent researchers reporting that most players playing F2P games does not pay and only a small percentage pays, you ignore them and rumbles to say people might swipe their cards and lost control.

While I told you that people swipe their cards in much bigger swipes on online sports gambling, you ignored and repeats your broken record.

Hey man, I know your view.  Telling me a story is not a model, not a proof.  Its a story.  Your story.  Apart from your story, you have nothing solid to back up your argument.

Its like, hey an apple can be bad, I have eaten a bad apple before.

Oranges are better, the one I ate yesterday tastes good.

So I choose oranges.

What can I make out of it?  Nothing.  Still empty blank irrelevant fragments, and a lot of hot steam err passion.

I see no real point in going down this road with you Orthedos, as you argue for the sake of argument. Where did I say that F2p games are inferior? I just pointed out the subscription games need to bring out content so they can keep thier fanbase happy. If they do not they lose subs and for them that means money..

RMT/ free to play games on the other hand do not have to bring out content to keep people playing as the game IS " free to play" its dosent cost you a penny to download and play it for free. So thier focus if they want food on the table is to come up with ideas to get people to use thier cash shops.

this is simple logic, you dont agree with this? if you do not what do you think Free to play games make thier money from, Adverts ingame? on thier sites? what? please enlighten me and tell me what if not the cash shop makes the RMT game go round?

Now about gambling and your post about that I know to little to make any counter arguments against that so I just let it go.. also I saw no point in going off topic anymore then we need to.

And you say you cant make nothing out of it.. well most people probably can that bother to see the logic in it and are not here just to try and shoot holes in everyhting.

Now in the future the best games out thier might be free to play once, who am I to say.. but I can say that we probably will spend alot more money if the Free to play game becomes the standard. Why do I think this? what proff can I offer to the table that. free to play games cost more then p2p. Well I spent alot more cash playing entropida universe then I ever did playing WoW. I also earned alot more money playing Entropida then I did WoW, I dident make a cent playing wow hehe, but a made a few thousand bucks playing Entropida.

In the end it comes down to the player, those that are willing to pay extra or be lured into, or go willingly to cash shops to make thier online experiance better, and those that want to have control and know exacly how mush they are going to spend each month.

I for one see many pitfalls and dangours with the RMT games, some of you dont, in the end we are left with a choice, play them or scip them.. you decide.

Originally posted by Orthedos

Zlayer: you need to exercise economy.

A long long long long passage, which can easily be summaried by Mr Milton Friedman's famous sentence.

"There is no free lunch".

So?  Where are you heading to?

Subscription games need to make good content ( like a good magazine needs good articals) to keep peodople subscribing.

RMT games only need a smart and subtle way to get as many people into the cash shop as possible.

That is when the Devs are sitting at the round table. The subscription based games makers are disucussing what do we need to do make people stay and not quit. As then they will lose money. The free to play game makers are mostly discussing how do we make more people use the cash shop. because if people arnt using them we are going broke.

This Orthedos is the diffrence betewen a sub game and a free to play one....

Okey fist of do you all think that developers of video games are on some sort of Philanthropic field trip?

THEY ARE OUT TO MAKE MONEY!

Now we can debate about good and bad RMT. We can also debate about will there only be good RMT in the future, or will most of them be Bad.

But in the End we have to see RMT for what is is, at its core RMT is:

1. Real money for Virtual items( ones and zeros with little to no value in IRL, if we are not going with the Entropida universe type of game)
2. A way to get more items and ingame money by taking out your credit card, or game time card.
3. A way for the makers of the game to make Profit from thier IP. Selling or loaning parts of it to you as a player if you pay.

I hope we all can agree on these 3 things.

A  subscription game on the other hand is:

1. Real money for virtual time ( you rent time, be it a month or a year from the makers of the game, in that time you can play around in thier universe, get itmes, earn gold, craft stuff etc.
2. A way for developers to get fonds to make additional content and get money back from thier investments.
3. A way for the maker of the game to make a Profit from thier IP.

But in a subscription game, like if you have a magazine, you have to constantly bring out new conent to keep your subscribers, or they will get bored and stop subscribing. 

The cash games on the other hand can use other methods, as its free to play, but lets face it still need money to keep operating.

1. They can release new items in the cash shop (most RMT games use this)
2. Make Repairs cost real money (entropida uses this module)
3. Offer advances in both level and wealth for real money.
4. They can also let players have thier own house or a fast mount to cut down travel time.

If we agree that free to play games cant operate with zero income, the question comes down to how do we get the players to use the cash shop. The way developers go about this is often both subtle and smart. They make travel in the game tedious, but offer a swift horse in the cash shop. Or they make small bags so you have to run back and forth alot, but offer a Big bag that can hold all your stuff in the Cash shop. They can even go as far as make the leveling a real pain and then offer a big Exp potion in the cash shop.

The RMT games are geard towards getting people into the cash shop as we have agreed they cant survive if ( pay for servers, new content)  they cant get people to buy.

And this is the core diffrence, where Subscription games compete with content do get you to play thier game. Free to play games try to lure you into thier cash shop so they can pay thier salary this month.

Free to play games have content yes, and they do ad new stuff to thier worlds but they are not on a Philanthropic quest to bring free quality games to the public. They are out to make money the same way the Subscription based MMO is. But the diffrence is where the p2p game needs to bring out content to keep you subscribed. The free to play one just needs to come up with new ideas to lure you to thier growing cash shop.

This is one plus the risk of addiction to players when they can suddenly swipe thier credit card to get more stuff is why I sceptical towards RMT games.

I would say AoC, it got cooler grafics and no Elfs, plus the combat system actually is more skill based then in any other mmo to date.  it had alot of bugs though, so look and see that most of them are fixed.

Warhammer is just WoW in new clothes, it wont show you anything you havent seen before.

Orhedos and Madeux you both know what I think about RMT we been down this road to many times now. So I see no real point in putting in any more effort in trying to convince you Both that RMT is actually bad business.

But I can put the focus on that you argue for the RMT in as mush a fanatical manner as I argue against it. MY post was not directed at you but for readers of this thread. To look at your history and see OMG these two have made 10+ post now both where they do all they can to, discredit and crush any arguments that are negative towards RMT.

Iv tried realy hard to see your point but all I see in the future if you get yoru way, Is CASH shop going up all over the place and milking us dry.

All the Developers are angry about 3rd party sellers of thier virtual proparty. If we as consumers say hey we dont mind buying from you instead and we dont think of it as cheating. Then I will promise you Both! that in a mather of days every game that is p2p will start selling thier gold and items ingame.

What we are left with then is Entropida Universe, do you realy want all games to be like this in the Future??