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All Posts by Axehilt

All Posts by Axehilt

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Originally posted by Bladestrom
Good example, you could put pictures and words into a Braille book to try and grab the audiance with sight to get more money, but then then when the sequel is been 'developed' and the publisher has limited resource, what does he prioritise? Blind people are a limited market, improve the pictures and words to get more profit.

Now instead put in a publisher that specialises in Braille books and target blind customers specifically and therefore have revenue targets that reflect this market and the rest is obvious.

 

Right, and they wouldn't try to tackle giant projects that were far above and beyond the known demand for braille books.

Just like how videogame publishers avoid tackling niche MMOs when they could do niche non-MMOs instead (ie smaller projects which are better suited to the demand for that type of game.)  Sometimes, like int he case of sandbox games, the experience is better-suited to a non-MMO from a design perspective (since the experience revolves around letting you be master of the world with complete control, and that fundamentally becomes less possible the more players you involve in the experience.)

More work, questionable benefit, and a little downside.

  • It's more work. Doing it in a way that doesn't look like ass involves considerably more effort than a texture/mesh swap system.
  • Weak benefit.  We can't point to WOW and say "look how bad this game did because it used a swap system instead of sliders" and we can't point to a slider game to say "look how much more this game sold because it had total character customization"  There is no significant group of players out there refusing to play games because of a lack of customization options.
  • A bit of a downside. At any given skill level of an art team on a game, they're going to produce nicer looking stuff if you give them more control over the look than less.  (The only point where this becomes false is if you don't have an art team and instead just have programmers, at which point you probably want them doing things programmatically instead.)
So it ends up being one of those "yeah it's cool, but ultimately not cool enough to be worth it" things.
Originally posted by Gamer54321

OP ought to explain what is the point of claiming that games "could and should be for everyone", because afaik games are for everyone, all one need to do is to try something new and different, so OP's title doesn't really make any sense.

You should probably educate yourself on basics like target market.

You could also argue that Braille books are "for everyone", but the reality is that they're an entertainment/education product designed for a specific niche, and not useful at all to those who can't read braille (which includes the vast majority of those of us who aren't blind.)

Games are the same way (just not as extreme.)  Each appeals to a certain subset of players.

Both are dreadfully boring in terms of moment-to-moment gameplay. Pick up Freespace 2 and a flight stick, and have fun doing things rather than waiting for things.

Originally posted by deniter

RPGs are about story-telling in a sense that you tell the story to other people, not that the story is told to you by pre-defined scripted encounters and video clips. Role-playing game is all about to have influence over the outcome of story plots and your environment.

I blame Bioware for this nonsense they started in early 2000 that made gamers believe RPGs are about watching movies and clicking 'yes', 'no', 'i don't know' between the scenes. That's watching an interactive movie, not playing a role-playing game.

What makes you say that? 
 
The overall plot of Baldur's Gate was told to you.  You still made choices within that tale, and the time you tried an all-mage party is a story within BG that you told, but you didn't control the overall storyline.  It was largely a story told to you.
 
The history of every RPG ever includes this list of nearly every videogame RPG, tabletop RPG modules like White Plume Mountain, and non-module tabletop often being planned in advance. The majority of these games are just like Baldur's Gate: the main thrust of the story is told to you, not by you.
 
Dig into that first link if you want -- it shows Bioware clearly wasn't the start of this. It's possible there are earlier examples than Ultima 1 and Final Fantasy 1, but the fact that these super early RPGs had the trait makes it a moot point: it's been part of RPGs for over 30 years now.  You were told that Mordain was the tyrannical evil wizard, and you had to defeat him to progress the story.  While the details of how you went about that were up to you, the overall story wasn't.
Originally posted by LacedOpium 

MMO implies lots of people playing a game online.  The game can, of course, include a persistent world, but a persistent world is not required to be an MMO.  Had you said you can't imagine an MMORPGs without a persistent world, it would make more sense.  Many people confuse MMO with MMORPG now days.  Most of these people simply don't know the difference.

Right, one could easily imagine an MMOFPS like Planetside 2 where the map changes every so often like a classic shooter.  In that case you wouldn't really consider the world persistent, yet the game would clearly still be an MMO.

You're also right that "MMO" only implies a massive amount of players playing online. Not to be confused with a full genre like MMORPG (where "RPG" describes the actual gameplay, and MMO just lets you know it's a massively multiplayer version of an RPG.)

Originally posted by delete5230

Never played The Secret World.....Too much story telling to be an mmo. Someday I may play it for the single player aspect, because it sounds like a good game just not an mmo. 

TSW is a MMORPG.

RPGs are games.  (Role-Playing Game)

RPGs are about story-telling.

There's no such thing as an "MMO".  MMO is an adjective which modifies an existing genre.  The only thing implied by MMO is that a game is massively multiplayer and online.  So story-telling definitely doesn't dispute that, given that the game happens in a big player-filled world.

Originally posted by Vardahoth 

L2 using more than 1-2 skills - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBmLELdMBZM

I count a total of 10 skills used in this fight (not by "rotation", but instead by circumstances to the skill needed to be used at that time). And that is not including the 13 buff skills in the beginning of the video.

WoW also using 2-button skills - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-KMOc_y7xo (after the 4:40 intro) 

Oh and trust me, if more people showed up to "help" an open world raid boss, it was most likely going to be pvping to kill the raid boss for it's drops, and not the carebear help.

Oh and some raid bosses never actually got killed, because the server was too busy fighting eachother to "group up and help". 

Also in terms of working together, here was the number of players in ventrilo organized for 1 thing (a siege) in the game. In L2, ventrilo (or other voip's) was a requirement to join a clan. You didn't have to speak, but you had to at least follow directions. In WoW, I was always told "we don't use voip because they aren't ever needed".

http://s116.photobucket.com/user/xXxghaleonxXx/media/awakeningvent1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=196

http://s116.photobucket.com/user/xXxghaleonxXx/media/awakeningvent2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=195 

When I talk about skills, I'm not talking about skills on your hotbar (although even this has been nerfed down to 4-5 skills allowed in mmorpg's today (GW2, ESO)). I'm talking about the skill of having to work together where everyone has a part to play. The skills you choose are all situational based on which one of them is required. For example:

Blade Dancer and Sword Singer: need to decide which buff skills they will be using, and make sure to rebuff every 2 minutes (in sync with eachother, or drain mana for both to not get the full buffs off), or the party dies.

Other buff classes (There is 7+, so I won't bother naming them all): Responsible for making sure the buffs do not roll off, or the party dies. They must keep a timer, know their 30+ buffs and which ones to use depending on the situation.

Tanks: Responsible for pulling monsters back to the party (yes, running in wildly like done in WoW would surely get the party killed). Then the tank is responsible for bundling every mob in range of eachother for the AOE sleep. Or if it's a tank party, making sure he positions himself in accordance to the agro line of the mobs so when they get to him, his pole is hitting all of them at once. In pvp, they are responsible for keeping healers stunned (making sure nobody in party hits a stunned player to knock off stun), and hate agroing the damage dealers.

DD's: Responsible for assisting targets, and pulling agro to the tank when things got out of control.

Nukers: In some parties, they are responsible for aoe sleep (while the party assists to one target killing the mobs one by one). When the sleep wears off, they need to be already in casting for the next sleep cloud, or the mobs wake, scatter, and the party dies.

 

I played a nuker too, and I can tell you I definately used more than 1-2 skills (especially in pvp). Even nukers had their own specialties. But to keep this simple, I will state how I played my SPS (after they nerfed sleep for pvp):

PVP...

I once 1v9'd a party through wall of argos. They came after me while I was trying to kill 500 monsters for a part of my nobless quest. They had all the buffs I had + songs/dances/COV (in case you didn't know, COV pretty much doubles all your stats, but at the cost of slowing down your run speed). The party consisted of a bishop (best healer in game), Warcryer (party buffer), 2 Daggers, 2 archers, blade dancer (buffer/supportDD), sword singer (buffer/supportDD) and 1 spell singer(Nuker).

How I won: By casting slow on the fastest moving targets while kiting them all the way through. When one got too far away from the party, I would quickly kill him and continue to run (particularly when he ran around corners and out of healing sight). I also used other skills like (weakness to my nuker skill, weakening atk power, cancel buffs, 2 different slows, fear - making them run in the direction away from me, 3 different nukes).

How they could have won: At one point their archer got a stun off on me. Then immediately knocked off stun with another arrow. If he would have just waited till the daggers caught me, or even better the nuker nukes me (nukes did not knock off stun btw), they would have got me. But rushing is what brought them to miss that.

In the end, they blamed their blade dancer for not using arrest on me (a ranged rooting skill).

Raids...

Some bosses required slow and to be kited during the entire raid. Others you had to watch your mana and know if you drain it too fast using nukes, you would most likely pull agro and kill the party.

Solo Leveling (well, more like trio leveling since you couldn't really solo)...

Most the time you couldn't even solo level. You had to have at least 1 buffer and recharger (for mp). So we will call this more of a trio party, since soloing in the game was never really even an option. Hell I even boxed multiple accounts and made macro's for buffs/heals/recharges just to make it easier on myself. Aside from the nuke+slow, nukes, weakness, and sleep for crowd control, you were right that there was not much used here for leveling.

PVE Parties...

Nuker was basically playing the roll of crowd controll. One time in a train party. The warlord (a class for pulling trains of mobs) liked to pull a super train at the end of the party. I had to do aoe sleep (since the train was so big, his weapon would not hit all the monsters), followed by support healing since the healer could not get heals off fast enough. It was a low level heal skill, but just healing that 500hp here and there allowed me to keep the trainer alive, thus we did not have a party wipe.

In train parties, I used 3 aoe nuke skills.

In hard monster parties, I was crowd control: sleep, slow, weakness, fear, so forth... 

My point is skill was all situational. Each skill served it's own purpose for the type of environment a player was in. Since L2 was not designed to be solo friendly (unlike wow), you had to work together with other players to get ahead in the game. Ultimately this is what I am looking for again.

We would all immediately recognize that a video of two 7 year olds playing chess badly wouldn't serve as evidence of chess being shallow.  Similarly we understand that showing WOW at its shallowest (in world PVP using a class which was overpowered at the time) tells us nothing about WOW's actual depth at high-end play.

So I'm going to assume you posted Roguecraft purely for its entertainment value.

To compare actual depth, you have to take the best examples of both games, which might include this one of WOW's high-end PVP.  While a count of abilities used isn't really how you measure game depth, it's worth noting that the 9 abilities shown per class are just cooldowns and that many more abilities are used.

The majority of high-end raiding guilds in WOW do it with VOIP.  Certainly the ones who achieve meaningful kills use it.

Player skill is what I mean by skill too (I tend to use "abilities" when referring to the things a player's char can do.)

The brief summaries you've provided aren't the way to showcase the game's depth. They just leave me wondering, "Uh, so all you have to do is maintain a buff by hitting a button every 2 minutes?" and make me inclined to conclude L2 isn't especially deep.

Instead just link one guide. Choose the deepest class; find the best guide for it.  (We're only interested in the best examples of each game, after all.) The guide will presumably run through all of the nuanced situations where you'd want to use each ability, and that will show the game's depth.

Originally posted by Vardahoth

I'm not going to turn this into a this game is better than that game discussion. What I will say is some games require skill and patience (with organization of large groups) beyond what the ADD kids will ever be able to accomplish. However, since the takeover of the WoW generation, these games are long dead. Everyone wants to solo in an MMORPG, and wow (and pretty much every MMORPG company) is doing their best to accommodates this. 

However, there is a playerbase that does prefer mass interaction for overcomming challanges (fighting players by the thousands in a more player driven game) vs 5man instance raids to mash buttons and beat the game. And I can assure you, the crowd is much larger than 1% (I hope I'm not responding to one of those occupy idiots). 

And a good start would be a game with 0 instances, take a look:

Players Opinions - http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034

Non-Instanced Raid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9dF1TK-xuw

Another Non-Instanced Raid (with a mix of pvp for the raid boss) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMEi_gbk9FU

Non-Instanced MMORPG world (where anything can happen) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZVJ_D38E4U

Non-Instanced PVP (wars, flagging system, and option to do whatever with harm to others and risk for yourself) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUhwZ0DGtKM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2ktOuIleLI

And finally, Non-Instanced Event seige where an unlimited number of clans can compete to attack or defend the castle (of their choice). But at the end, only one clan will get to own the castle and reap it's rewards (until the next event begins) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N2aWpXFygc

All we want is just ONE game like this. You can have your 1000 WoW copycat games. We just want ONE without it being turned into another WoW copycat.

Patience was certainly required in greater amounts.  There is no better example than L2 of the repetitive grind that characterized early MMORPGs. But players tend to prefer content (ie variety,) and L2's repetitive grind was far less varied than most MMORPGs.

Skill was not required in great amounts.  Earlier I linked the warlock rotation as clear evidence of the significant skill involved in mastering WOW. I'd be very surprised if you could link a guide on L2 combat that showed it to require anywhere near that amount of skill.  (My limited time in L2 involved endlessly nuking opponents with the same 1-2 spells, and combat struck me as unusually shallow for a MMORPG.)  But even though I'd be surprised, evidence carries weight (far more than forum opinions) and so if you showed a rotation that required as much or more skill to master I'd be forced to accept that.

Without instancing, less skill is required.  Because without a player limit, you can reduce the amount of skill required by bringing more players. That's typically the main purpose of instancing: to act as a player limit. So with instancing there are fewer ways to sidestep the skill requirement, which makes skill more important.

It's fine that you enjoyed that type of game, and fine for you to try to build a case for more of those games to get made, but let's not toss around claims that are provably false.

Originally posted by BalianWolfie
I am sorry but, why do I feel like the quotation mark in the title should be around "type", not "each"?

It does make sense when you consider that player tastes are as varied as there are players, but that commonly players are lumped into arbitrary types.

So he's not proposing a server for each player, as that would be thousands of different servers suited to each individual's taste.

He's proposing one for "each" player: the full loot PVPers, the casual PVEers, etc.  Each of which is an arbitrary generalization (ie there is no such thing as a "pure" casual PVEer who has literally zero interest in anything else.)

In reply to the thread, I think Helleri nailed it. Every major game element you would want to include should just all be part of the same world, as an opt-in feature.  It doesn't even need to be segregated by physical locale: you can have a range of PVE experiences if you simply provide a difficulty slider, for example.  There are going to be some elements that don't fit with each other, and those are the only elements which would have to be segregated a bit more than usual.

Originally posted by Antiquated

Neither will coin-op arcades. After all, Dave and Busters is still carrying the torch.

The parallels are obvious. Technology rolls on, and continuously accelerates. What was once the biggest thing always becomes, eventually, a quaint and antiquated fossil.

If you really expect anything to never die, sit down and have a chat with your parents.

Certainly it depends on the definition of "dead".

Coin-op was probably once the majority (over 50%) of videogame revenue, but if my previous link's "arcade" category is coin-ops then they're not 0.1% of videogame revenue.  That's about as close to financial "death" as it gets.

Whereas RPGs are still 9.5% overall and while that presumably combines both MMO and non-MMO games it's still a healthy genre players are interested in, and has shown little sign of dying by any definition.

Originally posted by Vardahoth

Putting words in my mouth. Nice. Let me be blunt (if you can't understand this, then join the other WoWtards):

you said "Is chess a joke?  It's so easy preteens can play it.  They won't get far (just as they won't get far in WOW) but they can play it." 

I'm saying all I pretty much saw at end game was kids (hence they did get far and reach end game), also hinting in chess I could choose my opponent (the game does not choose it for me). 

I'll stop there.

The average age of WOW players is 28 years old, so it seems suspicious that you're claiming "all I pretty much saw" were kids. Beyond that you choose your teammates (even if you choose random teammates,) so it's within your power to avoid what few children there are in endgame.  

Originally posted by Scorchien

 LMFAO you would think that you would at least take the time to read and understand the stuff you copy/paste , you realize that the War/Demonolgy build you link as your evidence is using nearly 20 macros and Addons to achieve those numbers ...

  Aint that fuggin rich ... your evidence is fraud ...the basis of your argument is fraud  ...and yes these programs are designed to beat the game and not easy content all of Wows content is attacked in the same manner..... And im done with you again .. altho im sure you will come up some convuluted twisted way of explaining this ... You enjoy that on yer own i have no more time to argue with someone that doesnt even have the sense to check there Evidence before the fraudulenlty represent it , Thinking noone will check

  ohh and i know how you like eveidence and links so much .. so in case you lose it .. here is your Eveidence ..

http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/demonology-warlock-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities

  1. That's not the right link.  The rotation page mentions no addons/macros.  Those are found on another page.
  2. The macro/addon page contains no macro/addon that perform the rotation logic for you.
  3. Which means you still have to master the rotation to play the class at a high level.
So instead of excitedly high-fiving yourself, spend some of that enthusiasm coming up with a legitimate, logical point.
 
My evidence still stands.
Originally posted by Scorchien

Ive asked you twice to stop derailing this thread , i wont respond again take this to your own thread...

Eh, here's how it relates to the thread:

  • The OP based the thread on a false assumption: that WOW is "officially done".
  • The false assumption was called out. Clearly WOW isn't done yet and is in fact the biggest MMORPG, even though it's in decline.
  • Then someone blamed the decline on modern WOW being shallow.
  • I provided strong evidence that not only is it not shallow, it's one of the deepest MMORPGs out there (which I feel was a big factor to WOW's big-success-and-slow-decline, compared with all the lesser MMORPGs we've seen over the years.)
So it's all related.  (At least up until the point where you picked a fight with my evidence-based point with no evidence of your own; it was just meaningless argument at that point.)
 
You could argue that once the OP's false assumption was proven wrong that the entire rest of the discussion should've ended.  It was the foundation of the entire discussion, after all.  But people like to discuss things, so conversation continued.
Originally posted by Scorchien

 Listen , try this being you are incapable of finding information for your self , ill help you along Again , try searching Wow Multi Box Heroics .. etc .. its a good start(should find many links to help you) for you then come back and tell us how difficult it is to achieve top tier dps rotations in Wow .. Maybe prove yourself right instead of askin everyone to prove you wrong ..  we already know its easy to do .. lmao hell 8 year olds do it .. Search that ...

The basis of your argument is that because you can have a program play WOW for you, it's shallow.

Would you say that chess is an even shallower game than WOW?  After all, your example is of someone using a program to beat WOW's easier content, while chess programs beat the strongest grandmasters.

So the idea that games are shallow because we can use programs to beat them is clearly wrong.  Chess is still deep even though chess programs exist.  FPSes are still deep even though aimbots exist. WOW is still deep even though rotation programs/scripts exist.

Originally posted by Scorchien

Once again i dont have to prove shit to you  , as i said with the Mods availble to Wow anyone can run a top tier DPS rotation .. Most do it one handed these days , if You find it challenging then  that is a You thing .. period...

Right you don't have to prove me wrong. You only have to prove me wrong if you claim I'm wrong.  Without backing up your claims, they're just hot air.  Meaningless.

Originally posted by Antiquated

Like the other type of game in this dicussion?

Granted, you're on mmorpg.com, so the local audience just might be a wee biased.

But if Coin-Op Arcades and Fighting Games and DOOM+Quake were all fads that the years rolled right on past...

We can hope that MMOs have the durability of (say) billiards or chess. But we probably can't prove that they will.

But they've already been around for longer than coin-op arcades...

Your message here is a little muddled by including highly successful genres alongside coin-op arcades.  FPSes are the second-biggest gaming genre.  Even fighting games still make up a solid 6%.  (Even adventure games make up 6%!)

While individual games do tend to die off as the years roll on, their genre foundations remain interesting to players.  Part of the success of Poker and Chess during pre-videogame history was due to how few options people had back then.  If introduced today as new games, it's possible neither of these games would even been noticed among the daily deluge of games released.

Originally posted by JDis25

MOBAs will start to show the same curve as WoW did. Huge at first with a progressive decline. This may take another 5 years but it will happen. Other genres will either pop up and become popular or MMOs will begin to get more popular again. That is my prediction.

 

I Believe we will start to see more MMOs similar to Destiny. 

Individual games decline, MMORPGs as a whole aren't:

"Scott Hartsman [CEO Trion Worlds]: A lot of it comes down to the way MMOs have evolved. The general idea of people wanting to play with other people online is still the biggest type of gameplay that exists. It’s only gotten bigger, especially in free-to-play. When you look at the general market of where attention is going in gaming, online is growing. Free-to-play is growing." (source)

Genres can sometimes decline, but it takes a pretty serious shift to make that happen (apparently more serious than what we've seen in MMORPGs.)

Originally posted by Scorchien

Stop with your walls of BS , Wow today with all the mods , Helen Keller can come up with rotations and succesfully raid ..And these mechanics that you decided to derail this threads with from the  OP conversation arent neccassary ,other than to fuel your epeen hunger.. .. So stay on topic .. 

Objective evidence of WOW's depth has been presented.  Baseless claims like your Helen Keller comment don't actually mean anything in this discussion.

Look, the reason I play MMORPGs is deep PVE gameplay.  It's why I stuck with WOW as long as I did.  If you have evidence of many MMORPGs with deeper rotations, then present that evidence and prove me wrong.  Otherwise, realize that your argument is baseless and that very few MMORPGs (if any) surpass the depth of its rotations from an objective standpoint, and that I'm right.

You're free to dislike the game, you're just not free to make incorrect claims about its objective depth.

I have no clue what you're even talking about regarding "epeen hunger".

Originally posted by AriesTiger

@OP: 

I think so. But I blame it on the f2p/b2p gamers and their lack of funds. MOBAs by and large are the only games that can really handle a true free experience and provide novelty items in a cash shop. 

But I like the MOBA lobby-style playing. I group with people as I need to for the quest and soon as the mission (map) is over lobby closes and we each go on our seperate ways. That's the biggest draw for me, for MOBAs. 

No touchy-feely clingy types to weigh you down, none of the MMOPRG drama, etc. etc. I think MOBAs are great. I personally have 1 MOBA as main game, 2 side MOBAs as alt and trying to find a decent game to sub to again to replace for new main.

How do you maintain a idea that F2P players "lack funds" while the games make more money?

Also it's a little strange to praise MOBAs for their lack of MMORPG drama, when MMORPG drama is so rare and MOBA drama is so common (almost half the games?)  MOBAs are still a blast, but there's no shortage of drama.

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