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All Posts by Axehilt

All Posts by Axehilt

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7937 posts found

It ruins everything...

  • Good player-to-player interaction? Ruined by world chat.
  • A fun and engaging combat system? Ruined by world chat.
  • A nice evening spent gaming alone without interruption? Ruined by world chat.
  • Dinner with the in-laws? Ruined by world chat.
  • That time you nearly saved money on your car insurance? Ruined by world chat.
  • Promotion at work? Ruined by world chat.
  • Solved world hunger? Ruined by world chat.
  • Cure for cancer? Ruined by world chat.
Goddamnit world chat, you're why we can't have nice things.
Originally posted by Malabooga

You see, thats the comment on your own arguments. becasue i did make same exact argumet you use and base your theory on.

Thank you for realizing that your own arguments are clearly false.

An argument based on a premise which is observably false isn't "the same exact argument" as one based on truth and logic.

Originally posted by Holophonist

He says "a game is deep when..." You're right that he should have said "is deeper...." If he did, then he wouldn't have been wrong. 

Regardless of the fact that he's wrong, he's still just one guy and he's talking about a different genre. I promise there are "developers" who would disagree with much of what you're saying. That's why appeals to authority don't really fly in formal debate.

Wait what.... how is what you said anything more than a non sequitur? How does your chess-checkers analogy make my question irrelevant?

Just because the corp officer is making decisions for other players doesn't change anything. If you prefer I modify the question to say that somebody decides to take their own personal titan out for a spin and lose thousands of dollars instead of tens of thousands, that's fine too. The bottom line is, these are much more important decisions than anything you'll see in WoW.

Here's the problem: chess is not simple. The rules of chess are simple. Chess itself is anything but. Chess absolutely is deep because there are an almost infinite amount of meaningful possibilities, not to mention the fact that you can take into account the mindset of your human opponent.

Mastery has nothing to do with depth, for the millionth time. You can have depth in a game that takes almost 0 skill, and you can have a lot of difficulty in a game that isn't very deep.

The problem with your definition of depth and how it relates to WoW is that using that definition would mean any game where you just pile on independent systems would add depth to the game, and I don't think that's right. That's just content. WoW seems to me like a game with a lot of CONTENT since it's been around for so long and has been very popular. That doesn't make it deep, it makes it broad. The way I like to think of it is a very large but shallow puddle, compared to a smaller but deeper puddle. One has depth, the other has width. 

And the problem with your comparison of the min/maxing in WoW compared to min/maxing in EVE is that one game is more suited to it than the other. Because WoW is so shallow, it's much more susceptible to being "figured out." You can't "figure out" EVE, because of its depth. You're competing against other players in extremely well crafted game mechanics. On the other hand, you very much can figure out almost all of the content in WoW. People have figured out the best ways to quest, they've figured out the ideal ways to do each raid, they've figured out the best builds, etc. It's all figured out because it's so shallow.

Well while you're fighting over this very minor semantic victory, the problem is his definition's intent is clear (due to the context and the word being defined) and so it remains a valid and accurate definition of depth as it relates to gaming.

Different genres doesn't change the meaning of game depth. Game depth is the same regardless of genre. The idea that it varies is preposterous.

You asked for WOW's analog to an EVE officer's decision.  I pointed out how that's an irrelevant question, because there are no analogs between the decisions being made in chess vs. tic-tac-toe, yet we're still able to clearly identify chess as being deeper.

Maybe I could provide you personal motivation in the argument to find the analog yourself, by pointing out that those decisions indirectly reduce a game's depth because they're only made by officers (a minority) not members (the majority).  So that's even less game depth experienced by the average player.  Which provides some incentive for you to go "oh yeah well WOW does that in the same way by..." at which point you'll have your analog.

Calling the decision of whether to go out alone in an EVE Titan "important" isn't a measure of the decision's depth, it's a measure of the decision's risk. Nobody's saying WOW has the same risk as EVE, but if that's the best

Everything you said about chess not being simple applies to SC2, and both games are deep in the same way.

Name a game which requires almost zero skill which you believe to be deep.

My definition of depth wouldn't necessarily benefit from piling independent systems onto the game.  We've seen how exclusivity and requirement are major factors shaping a game's actual experienced depth, in systems like EVE's travel (you're required to engage in this shallow system, at the exclusion of other decision-filled systems which you could have engaged in had the game been designed differently.)  While EVE travel isn't independent, that trait isn't too relevant -- only the depth resulting of the decisions (or lack thereof) is what's important. An example of an independent system which doesn't decrease experienced depth would be WOW's fishing -- because it's not required at all, its existence doesn't detract from the game's depth (except in an extremely indirect way: the devs worked on fishing when they could've been working on features which made their combat deeper.)

Content provides breadth, but breadth and depth are not on a sliding scale.  They're independent concepts, so you can have more of both.

I'm sure players have figured out how to min/max the damage and survivability of EVE fittings in exactly the same way as the min/maxing in WOW.  It's not like there are that many options to sift through to figure that stuff out, despite the game's spammed complexity.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I do think Diablo-like game is a perfect fit .. because the combat mirrors combat book action (one against many) better.

I think the play style variety itself is an incentive to hop between characters, and MH does make it easy to do so ... and that there are benefits (the synergy system) to play more than one heroes.

Personally i like MH way more than CoH .. just because if i want to play comic book like heroes, i want to play the "real deal" and not some no one that I make up. I would have like DC Universe a lot better if i can actually play Superman, than a Superman knock-off.


Slaughtering endless waves of meaningless minions isn't really what comic books tend to be about.  Typically it's more about their conflict with the big villain than their endless minions, which is why a fighting game works great.

One against many has a lot going for it for gameplay, but isn't a 'perfect fit' for what comic books are.

As for Superman?  Well, personally I feel like he's basically the worst superhero design of all time.  He does everything and has an arbitrary weakness.  The poor bastards stuck trying to create good stories with that character have their work cut out for them, since good story design will relate somehow to the human condition, and Superman seems deliberately designed to be impossible to relate to.


Marvel Heroes and City of Heroes are really the most reasonable directions that could go.

If you're going to let players build their own heroes, you ditch Marvel entirely and just let players build their own characters (CoH) and create a MMORPG around that. It won't matter that 99% of the heroes running around are nobodies, because the game isn't supposed to be about a particular IP.  

Otherwise, you create a game where all the characters being used are those specific heroes, and pick a genre that lets you use multiple characters.  Admittedly creating a Diablo-like game (Marvel Heroes) isn't the best genre fit, since there seems to be little incentive to hop between characters, but a MMORPG would be even worse in this regard.  But they do have a few other genres (CCG, fighting) where the characters are used to better effect.  Also I think a create-your-party RPG like Freedom Force would work fantastic with the Marvel IP.


What gamers think lie means: any statement which turns out to be false, regardless of the reason.

What lie actually means: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive.

Sure, you can dig into games' advertising and call most of it lies on technicality ("it'll be the greatest MMORPG ever!") but most things players call lies are where developers revealed their plans too early and delivered merely 90% of what they originally described -- which of course encourages developers to not share any info with gamers due to the unfair backlash it often generates.

Some of the rest of what gets called lies are things where developers clearly weren't intending to deceive but said something that turned out to be false. 

Originally posted by Malabooga

Nope, i proved you WoW isnt even a game since 100% of your time has 0 decisions.

Unfortunately, thats quality of YOUR arguments (i dont even call them arguments, just some made up stuff to try and keep dead theory above the water)

Fact is WoW is a shallow game.

If you ever decide to post something of merit, I'll still be here.  Making unrelated statements which are clearly false doesn't really threaten any of the points I've made so far.

Originally posted by Holophonist

He is verifiably wrong. The quote that YOU used is wrong.  You cannot say that depth is binary. There is no such thing as a game that is objectively deep or not deep. He is wrong. I'll say again, since you didn't actually deal with anything I said: You're appealing to authority, using the opinion of a guy who is WRONG, and is also talking about a different genre.

This has always been about you claiming that EVE is not more deep than WoW, so for the 3rd time: what is the WoW equivalent of the EVE decision I laid out? You're claiming that the decisions in EVE are just as important as the decisions in WoW. 

Depth is not the magnitude of the skill the entire game requires. Depth doesn't necessarily have anything to do with skill. 

Also, you seem to have forgotten this part of my post: 

"How are you quantifying these decisions? If you say the decisions in a game like EVE are the same as the decisions in a game like WoW, then surely you must have some way of measuring them. You're being annoyingly vague I think because you don't have any sort of substantive point. You're arbitrarily declaring that the decisions in a sandbox game are of the same caliber as any other game (or just WoW?), so that you can point that the downtime inherent in sandbox games means the games are therefore more shallow. In reality the situations WoW inorganically drops you into are not particularly deep or difficult. There are precise, pre-determined ways to complete every raid, min/max your character, etc. Not to mention the notoriously mind-numbing questing/endgame grinding that the game is known for. How is WoW deep exactly?

SC2 is not deep because it's hard to master. Again, depth is not difficulty. You can have difficulty in simplicity and simplicity by definition is not deep. Difficulty != depth." 

I wonder if you ignored it because you don't have an answer. I wonder if this is going to turn into another pointless internet debate where the guy has no defense for his baseless opinion, but still plays ring around the damn rosie for multiple posts before just giving up entirely and disappearing into the wind, without admitting he was wrong. Hmmmmm.

Your claim that his definition is "verifiably wrong" hinges on his definition being supposedly binary, even though the context clearly implying it isn't binary (years, decades, centuries) and the word itself implies it isn't binary (the fact that it's being repurposed to a slightly different definition as it relates to gaming doesn't change that particular property of the word.)  

We could certainly agree that "is deeper" would've been better instead of "is deep", since the former is more evocative of a non-binary concept than the latter.  But it's clear either way, given the context and the word itself.

Chess doesn't involve any of the decisions in Tic-tac-toe, yet we are able to make statements comparing the depth of the two games. That's the reason your question about WOW's analog to an EVE officer starting a war is ultimately irrelevant.  (Which is also an example where one player is making a single decision for lots of players, which is another way the depth experienced by the average player is lower.)

The rules of chess are simple. It's also the most commonly cited example of game depth, and few would dispute its depth. Yet you claim simplicity by definition is not deep.

I imagine that's the core of your disagreement. Everyone else is using the word to imply a depth of mastery that gives games longevity, whereas whatever your definition is would apparently call chess shallow just because its rules fit on a single sheet of paper.

It is difficult to quantify decision depth.  We understand chess is deeper than tic-tac-toe, and if you dig deeper you realize it has to do with the possibilities and dynamics within each game's decision tree, which generate a wide separation between newbie and expert, and that same separation exists to a large degree in WOW and your "Well just do everything perfectly and win" summary of WOW sort of misses the nuances in the same way that "Just do everything perfectly in EVE and win" misses that game's nuances.  But there aren't any convenient metrics for measuring the depth.

Originally posted by YoungCaesar

I guess you never heard of minigames for crafting? Again I ask you if anything not pvp related is shallow for you? All pve games are shallow? You obviously havent played UO, SWG, etc. where some crafters where famous and sought by on a daily basis, theres also traders that do nothing but play with the market and try to undermine other traders, theres lots of tactical decisions not related to pvp. And what long term strategy? Winning the game? Then repeat all over again... thats not really long term. In sandbox games theres years of long term politics that define the reasons for some wars, guilds that have hated each other for years.

But you said fun isnt the same as depth, so trying crazy strategies might be fun to you but it doesnt mean the game is deep. 

Also, if depth is not subjective you "might" avoid playing against the toughest opponent? Wouldnt this depend on how risk adverse the player is? Sandbox games can be played shallowly (zerging everyone for easier kills) but so can FPS (camping, etc.), but fighting outnumbered even has deeper and harder strategies that would impossible to replicate on balanced pvp games, thus giving these games more complexity.

Well I've been commenting on how these games actually are, not how they could be.  Crafting systems typically are quite shallow, and you might have strategic decisions related to what to craft (and sometimes where to sell it), but then the act of creating those products typically involves a bunch of really shallow gameplay (sitting in front of ore nodes all day harvesting the raw resources to be able to combine them with a simple action.)

I didn't play UO or SWG, but crafters being important doesn't necessarily mean that crafting is a deep skill-driven activity.  EVE's crafting doesn't require much skill (it's the same handful of important strategic decisions (skill) resulting in hundreds of hours of shallow activities (travel, gathering, and crafting)) and yet crafting is absolutely critical to the game.

You're right that being able to try a lot of strategies doesn't make a game deep.  It's just the more common way players have fun.

Playing a risk-heavy game and then completely ignoring risk won't work except in the imaginary game I described earlier (where only lateral progression existed) But again, that game wouldn't be considered risk-heavy in the first place; players typically measure risk in terms of time lost or vertical progression lost.  So in terms of how games are (not how they could be), a risk-heavy game reduces the number of balanced fights even for a suicidally risky player by penalizing that player with reduced vertical progression (and therefore creating more imbalanced matches for that player.)

Originally posted by Malabooga

I)f you go play WoW and wait 2 hours for raid to assemble, that means that you have made 0 decisions/hour and that means that WoW isnt  even a game because you made 0 decisions.

Yeah, thats right.

Your "theory" along with your quoted random internet stuff has been shot down in such hard ways thats its quite amusing by now.

Why would you bring this topic up?

  • 0-decision portions of WOW's gameplay are completely avoidable.  A smart player won't wait 2 hours for a raid.  He'll sign up for the raid, login 5 mins before, and raid.
  • Some 0-decision portions of EVE's gameplay are unavoidable.  Doesn't matter how skilled or smart you are, you're forced into things like travel where no gameplay occurs.
You have a strange tendency to bring up topics that you think decisively end a debate, when in fact you're pointing to something which further strengthens my own argument.
Originally posted by Holophonist

I didn't miss the post, I just don't care. Not only is he wrong, he's also just one dude. So a dude agrees with you.... great. Do you think there are any game developers that would agree that EVE has more depth than WoW?

The reason he's wrong is, first of all, because look at what the fuck he's saying. It's so amazingly subjective and vague it's not even worth talking about. Interesting? How do you quantify that exactly? When defining terms like these, you don't express it in binary terms. There is no game that has 100% depth or 0% depth. Similarly, there are no games that are pure sandbox or pure themepark. You define these terms in limits. For example, you could say sandbox means player-driven content and freedom. As you increase those things, you're increasing the sandbox nature of that game.

That guy is quite simply flat out wrong to define depth the way he's doing so. Not only that, is he even talking about MMOs? If I'm not mistaken, he's more of a fighting game or maybe FPS guy, right? If so, not exactly applicable.

So to reiterate, you're committing the fallacy of appealing to authority, you're doing so by relying on the opinion of ONE DUDE, that dude is almost verifiably wrong, and he's not even talking about the same genre.

Mmmm I think you're confused. I'm not asking whether or not the decisions in EVE are "important." I'm asking why they aren't more important than in WoW. What decision in WoW is as important as the decision I laid out in EVE?

You bothered to accuse me of making up my definition for this thread, so you obviously do care. The fact that the only developer spending time defining the word has a definition which agrees with my own (another developer) means a lot more than the flimsy opinions of people who've put a lot less thought into the subject.

Stating a few unrelated facts that don't conflict with his definition and then claiming his definition is wrong is baseless.  Game depth is a spectrum, just like sandbox vs. themepark.  But in that other spectrum surely you can look at the magnitude of player authorship to call one game more sandbox than another, just as we've seen the same thing can be done for depth.

So nothing you've said here comes remotely close to "verifiably wrong".  You've stated a couple unrelated truths and then claimed he was wrong with no basis for that claim.

I'm not confused, you are (you're the one thinking I claimed EVE's decisions weren't important when I said they were, remember?)  We're talking about depth, and that's not the measure of the importance of any decision in isolation, but of the magnitude of skill the entire game requires.  So on a per-decision basis EVE's are clearly more important because there are fewer of them (so obviously each one is a greater percentage of what creates success.)  Again the thing that matters is that huge portions of EVE's gameplay involve virtually no skill, and even though those portions are necessary to execute the game's strategy (which does require skill) that huge portion of your time spent doing shallow things is why the game is shallow overall.

Originally posted by Holophonist

No, you're still wrong. First of all, how many decisions you're making doesn't dictate the depth of a game. A game is not more shallow because you're making fewer decisions. That's not what depth is. You're assuming that the decisions in WoW are of the same "caliber" (whatever that means) as the decisions made in a sandbox. 

Another thing that isn't depth is "the challenge of mastering a game." As I've already pointed out, you can have a difficult game that isn't deep. SC2 isn't a deep game compared to most MMOs, but it will take you considerably longer to master it. Difficulty isn't depth. 

You're quite literally just making up your own definition of what depth means. You're also now trying to quantify decisions. How are you determining how important a decision is? 

You're also simply asserting that the decisions in ow pvp or sandbox games aren't more important, which is ludicrous. If an officer in an EVE corp makes a decision that ends up starting a server war that destroys tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear, what's the WoW analog of a decision like that?

If you're making as few decisions as you make in a open world PVP game, and if some of those decisions ('bring lots of friends') completely trump the importance of most of the other decisions you could make (instead of being additive,) then yes, the resulting game is shallower.  I'm not just assuming WOW's decisions are of the same caliber.  They are.  They're just as critical to beating the game's toughest challenges as anything in an open world PVP game.

SC2 is deep because it takes a long time to master.  The skill cap is extremely high and nearly impossible to reach -- that's exactly what depth is.

No, I'm quite literally using another game designer's established, straightforward, and logical definition of what depth means.  Did you miss the post where I quoted Sirlin? ("A multiplayer game is deep if it is still strategically interesting to play after expert players have studied and practiced it for years, decades, or centuries" -Sirlin, 2002)

I didn't say the decisions in a OW PVP game weren't important.  In fact I explicitly pointed out that the decisions are more important because there are fewer, but that fewer decisions means less types of skill which means less depth. 

Originally posted by Amaranthar

The only depth in difficulty of mastering a game I've seen in MMOs for years comes from ever increasing and bigger numbers. Add in new capabilities along the way and the "tactics" they bring along, but that's hardly adding lot of depth as much as making up for a lack.

Um, that's not a significant source of depth, and it's certainly not the only depth.

Interrupting a 100-damage spell is exactly as difficult as interrupting a 10,000-damage spell.  So scaling the values doesn't change the skill involved at all.  If that spell gets cast faster, that increases the skill involved since you need quicker reflexes.  If the spell gets cast in the midst of a bunch of chaotic other abilities demanding players move around, that requires more skill too.  If you're fighting the boss while undergeared, that typically requires more skill too (but not if the boss' only ability is this 100-damage spell, because even if you have so little HP that it would one-shot you the actual difficulty of interrupting the spell hasn't changed.  The risk being higher (instant death) won't have increased the skill required.

Skill and depth in MMORPGs largely comes from the combination of decisions required to beat the encounter, which usually involve a rotation which is difficult to learn by itself, which is then deliberately disrupted by boss capabilities, and teammates' actions (if your tanks drag two mobs together and your 2-mob rotation is stronger than your single target rotation, then you need to adapt to that on the fly, or you're not playing skillfully.) 

Originally posted by Holophonist

Your definition seems to be change every time you post. Before you were talking about the emptiness of sandbox games, contrasting that with the ability to jump right into a raid in WoW. You've also said that the amount of decisions at any given time is depth. If your definition of depth is now "difficulty in mastering a game" I'd still totally disagree. That's not what depth is. You can have a game that is very mechanically difficult without being particularly deep. 

Depth means there's "more" to the game as you go... deeper. You look at a system or a feature in a game and it has a certain amount of complexity to it at face value. As you delve into that system or feature, you notice that there's more and more to it as you learn. That's depth. Depth is not: 

"If 95% of your playtime is shallow (involving few decisions and almost no meaningful ones) then the game overall is shallow."

The amount of time it takes to uncover the game has nothing to do with its depth. A game doesn't need constant action all the time in order to be deep.

It's all the same meaning of depth, but we're digging into the details of why these games are or aren't deep.

If only 10% of your time in a game involves meaningful decisions, that's shallower than a game where you're making decisions of the same caliber 90% of the time (as long as the 90% decisions are just as difficult to master.)  A lot of players here seem tricked by the fact that those 10% decisions are fewer in number and so they are more important on a per-decision basis.  But depth is about the challenge of mastering a game, so as long as those 90% decisions are of equal challenge then that game is simply 9x as hard to learn because you have to worry about playing well 9x as much.

You seem to want to disagree with my definition of depth, and then you go on to describe depth as there being "more" to the game.  The fact that you keep learning new things because there's more to the game is exactly what sirlin's definition is saying!  Difficult to master doesn't mean it's hard to become an average player.  Mastery isn't mediocrity. Mastery is mastery.  It means you are literally the best player in the game and you never make mistakes no matter how many curveballs the game throws at you.  So the "more" you're describing is the process of skill progression towards mastery!

Games don't need to be constant action all the time to be deep, but the decisions in open world PVP games aren't of a higher caliber than those found in other games.  So if you take a game with 10 important decisions per hour and eliminate all but 1 of those decisions then you've made the game shallower, and that's effectively what these games have done.  In that 1-decision game, you might mistake it for being a deep game because holy crap is that 1 decision important (it's the one deciding factor in whether you win or lose!) But the reality is that mastering that game requires the mastery of fewer skills.

Originally posted by kitarad
I think fun is  more important than depth. A gameplay can be deep but annoying and boring at the same time. I would eschew that and engage in a fun activity rather than something deep. They are not mutually exclusive but deep gameplay must also be fun gameplay.

I totally agree!

Originally posted by Holophonist

You're defining depth in a completely arbitrary way. A virtual world where different people offer different tools/skills and create a functioning economy is a lot more deep that queuing up for a raid and then cycling through a dozen skills. Just because there's more time spent in game pressing buttons in a themepark doesn't mean it's deeper.

A preference for player-driven economies isn't what makes things deep.  Depth comes from the difficulty in mastering a game.

My definition of depth has been established for over a decade by a fellow designer.  You're applying the term to a game just because you like it.  Who's more arbitrary?

Originally posted by BeansnBread

I can and do enjoy both types. I find his opinion of what makes a game deep laughable. It's a definition he invented for the word in order to suit his argument. If number of decisions made per second was the most important factor in determining depth, cookie clicker would be one of the deepest games ever.

I'm a designer, and another designer came to the exact same conclusion of what game depth meant years back ("A multiplayer game is deep if it is still strategically interesting to play after expert players have studied and practiced it for years, decades, or centuries.")  So the definition has floated around since 2002, and definitely wasn't invented for this argument.

Depth isn't measured in decisions/second, but it also requires some decisions being made with relative frequency. 

Originally posted by Holophonist

Being part of a living virtual world sometimes means you're going to have to look for your content. You're trying to paint this picture that people who have played both types of games know that ow pvp games are shallow and games like WoW are more deep but I feel like it's COMPLETELY the opposite. To me it seems like the vast majority of people who have played both kinds of games simply cannot enjoy themeparks anymore because of how shallow they are. 

Everyone understands why virtual worlds are designed as they are, but the reality is that has resulted in players engaging in shallow activities for the majority of each game session.  We understand why bulldozers are slow vehicles too -- the fact that their purpose is the reason they're designed that way doesn't change the fact that they're slow, and the fact that there's purpose behind virtual worlds' designs doesn't mean they aren't shallow.

But unlike the bulldozer,virtual worlds could be designed in a way that was much deeper than existing virtual worlds.  It just requires them to not waste players time with so many shallow non-gameplay tasks.  The virtual world playerbase has been pretty well fooled into thinking their games are deep enough though, so the lack of demand for deeper gameplay means that these games remain shallow.

As for the claim virtual worlds are deeper than themeparks?  Well you can read the rest of what I've posted across this thread to understand why that's simply not true.

Originally posted by Mardukk

[mod edit]

If 95% of your playtime is shallow (involving few decisions and almost no meaningful ones) then the game overall is shallow.  How is that nonsensical?  If you've played EVE you understand the huge chunks of its gameplay are devoid of decisions, and other parts involve decisions from a narrow handful of players, and other narrow chunks are a simple combat system, and then you're left with this tiny scrap of truly deep decisions.

Deep down all the EVE players understand this if they're not trying to pretend the game is different to support an argument. Or in some cases completely overvaluing that tiny scrap of deep decisions (largely due to its scarcity.)

A game's depth relies on how difficult the decisions are, but it also relies on how many decisions there are -- how much of your game time is spent making decisions which are deep vs. those which are shallow.  

Originally posted by Malabooga

Really? So, when you play WoW every moment you spend ingame is top tier riding in progression phase? (lets call that "deep" just for sake of argument)

Why would you bring this up?  It's crippling to the open world PVP side of the argument.  Everyone who's played both games knows that while yes some time isn't spent in the deepest activities in WOW that much more time (as a percentage of your total playtime) is wasted in shallow activities in open world PVP games.

It's made worse by the fact that you could feasibly log into WOW for just raiding (and the ~30 mins a week you'd have to farm to get consumables I suppose) and if you raid 3 hours a day 3 days a week you're spending 94.5% of your time in the game's deepest systems.  And certainly if you want to bring up wipes between bosses then yeah I've always been in favor of instant resets that let players get immediately back into the gameplay on another attempt.

Meanwhile open world PVP games often involve risk which discourages good fights in the first place (causing the overwhelming majority of your gameplay to be shallow even if you're in battles) and then the risk itself means that if you happen to fail you're stuck doing some even shallower thing for a while as penance.

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