Originally posted by Plasmicredx

Originally posted by Daitengu

Nay. I'm saying don't discount other aspects. Don't discount the social aspect of the class, as some people enjoy it. It encourages roleplaying IMO. which is rather fun to do imo. Might not be your cup o tea, but it's older than P&P and stems off of acting.  I've tried P&P RPing, and LARPing. Not so much a LARP fan, but I can get into P&P RPing. Can't simplying playing a role that you can't do IRL be reward enough? For some people trying to be popular is quite rewarding. I would say failure is generally quantified by what the goal  of the player is. If they want to be popular, but just can't do it while other have, that's failure. If they want to RP and get huge tips but instead drive players away, that's a failure. Alot of the opposition to the entertainer is the players mindset, ability, and social skills vs other player's desire for, and opinions of, entertainment.

 

Location, timing, social skills, and character ability all play a role in getting cash, or failing.  Hell a musician IRL have to be good at all those and look good while doing it, or have people help them to earn money by playing. Which is harder than in game as you don't get buffs from music IRL. I only say it out of being a manager/accountant/assistant to a musician before IRL. That shit's rough. Musicians, I sware managing one is like being a babysitter to a drug addict sometimes >.<

I didn't discount the social aspect. The social aspect is inside of the desirable outcome. And the UNdesirable outcome is if the other players don't socialize with you.

The point is that with the swg entertainer, it was a weak game because it had a weak foundation in the five characteristics.

A strong game isn't going to make you have to pretend that a goal is there. What you're saying about making my own goals for a game is like saying if a game fails with bad game design, then I should pretend that the good game design is actually there. If I want to do that, I will, but if I don't, then I just won't play that game. That's what the majority of people will do when they are offered a game with bad game design.

You even say yourself that a musician in real life has a huge opposing force factor to deal with like making money. If a real life musician plays bad, then they have a very real problem in that they won't be able to pay for things. Making money, learning new songs/dances, and socializing is about the only things an entertainer in swg can do that is related to what you can also do in real life. What ISN'T the same is that there's no consequence for not getting any tips in swg. So if you are going to make a living breathing game world out of swg, then you will have to give an entertainer a good strong opposing force to interact with, like if you don't get enough tips every day your character will lose something important. This way you will actually have to play hard at being an entertainer so you can work for something. You also have to make playing instruments or dancing more fun than just pushing 1 button every 5-10 seconds to make your character keep playing/dancing. Playing an instrument and dancing should take a lot of practice of experience and knowledge. Just like it does in real life.

Of course sword fighting in real life takes far more experience and knowledge to do than playing a warrior in wow, but if it took the same amount then players wouldn't think it's a very fun video game. There's a range of difficulty. I would say pushing a button every 5-10 seconds to make your character play a new tune or dance in swg is about brain dead difficulty, where in wow a warrior that has to know how to switch stances from battle stance to berserker stance to defensive stance, know 20 buttons for each stance, when to use them, know how they work and what they do, use interrupts effectively by switching to one-hand with shield and back to two-hand, and be circle strafing your enemies all while you have focus target macros for a couple or more would be more like hard difficulty. No, it's not insane or nightmare difficulty like being a real life swordsman would be, it's just plain old fashioned "kinda hard." It doesn't take a leet gamer to play a wow warrior or any class in wow really, it just takes a level of practice that is considered slightly challenging.

If I wanted to play an innkeeper in wow, I would want the game to be almost as challenging as playing a real innkeeper in real life.

There's a quest in wow for players who learn first aid. You have to speedily click to provide first aid to wounded people as they come in or they will die. This is a neutral opposing force (like getting tips in swg) that people will actually die if you do not attend to them fast enough, but no real lose factor other than you might have to do it again (because you don't care about inanimate NPCs dying in a video game that will have no effect on your character in the game). Imagine if you fail you have to level up through several levels of first aid again. This would make you not want to mess up and take it a little more seriously. The reward is that you gain more powerful bandaid skills. Now just imagine a game like this for an innkeeper but with more depth and more things you have to do that's a lot more interactive with more win and lose situations other than standing in an inn's doorway offering hearth binds to other players for innkeeper points. Then it would be good game design.

If you want a "social game" only then don't play games with any interaction with an opposing force basically. Opposing forces tend to make you have to play the game instead of chat. There's virtual chat room or non-competitive games for that.

If you want a real breathing world simulation, then it will always need to have some opposing force factor in it. If you're going to have a really really real mmo world like Dawn, then have giving birth to actual characters, aging, permanent character death, and the like, all of which turn out to be opposing factors because the player playing your kid might try to pvp their parents.

Every post you have, you stated there needs to be an opposing force or some form of consequences. For you this may be true. However not everyone needs this to have fun. Or perhaps they can decide for themselves what the opposing force is.

For example my Girl friend playes Eq2. All she does is decorates houses. After 6 years playing she is still only level 1. There is no win or loss for her. Yet she has a ball.  Her opposing force is herself. When she is not happy with how something looks, she will tear it down and start all over again.

What the Op is saying is that MMORPG's can have MORE than just killing. He is not saying take that away. just add more for those that don't like to do what you like. There is no reason why someone being an inn keeper can't be fun for those that like to manage something.

People in general enjoy different things. Companies would do very well by incorperating many aspects to the game than just what we have now.

Edit... By the way I totally agree with the Op.

Originally posted by whilan

Originally posted by ComfyChair

Originally posted by nomss

Originally posted by Foomerang

GW2 will promote social gaming because all the Dynamic Events have a single current objective. You wont find a conflict of interest because there will always be just one thing to do.

So does DCUO's missions and Rift's rift. After that everyone goes off....

Except gw2 is exclusively this type of event, and events 'chain', so you'll likely form little groups as you go through a quest chain and may even stay in that group as you go onto the next event as you explore. It's far more social than any MMO to date, where other players are something to despise (zomg they steal my kill and/or gank me randomly).

Couldn't this also happen? You walk into a DE, it's already in progress with say 4 other people.  Once in that DE you get prompted of what you need to do.  You help them kill the monster/complete the objective, moving on wave after wave and then once it's over, collect your prize and break apart.

I'm worried this is exactly what will happen in most encounters.  Theres no tie and no real reason to need to group.  You can follow them just as they can follow you without the need to talk to each other or barely interact beyond just doing the event.

Just my personal view of course.  Some people will talk, some will not.  I just don't see DE really pushing this aspect.

what you descibe will happen. However I have seen this since EQ1 . There was groups I was in where everyone would just go afk while waiting for spawns. There was little social activity going on. Then there are groups that chat all the time.

I think the same will happen here. Those that want to be social will, those that don't wont.  You can't make people social they must want to be social.

Originally posted by Ikonic

So in GW2 Dynamic events scale based on the amount of people in the area doing them? If that is true, whats to stop some a$$hats in a group at the end of a long chain standing in the dynamic content increasing the difficulty and then do nothing?

The Dev's have stated that the server can determine who is doing damage and who is not. Difficulty will be based off of this more so than the number of players there. Also those that do stand there and do nothing has no chance for the loot.

Originally posted by Juggler8

Originally posted by ste2000

Mhhhh........... what you just said is a free advert for FFA PvP.

In FFA PVP you get consequences.

In Darkfall you become Red for long time and everyone can Kill you on Sight (You become KOS) hence increasing the chances to lose your stuff.

You cannot enter in Cities and use the merchants, so unless you are in a guild with a big city you are an outcast.

In Darkfall you have to think before engaging someone, because there is no visual indication if that player is a Veteran or a Newbie (no level no epic gear).

So griefing people is not as easy as you think.

 

In Carebear PvP it's the opposite.

Because you have no real consecuences, people can grief you as much as they like because they know they have nothing to lose if something goes wrong

Hmmm..never thought about it that way. But still have a question (and yes, I have been tempted to play Darkfall, but haven't had the guts yet :) ):

KOS? Does it matter, since what I understand, you can anyhow kill anyone on sight? What is the real difference being Red or not? (not trying to be a smartazz...just don't understand the difference)

What Ste2000 Is saying is not as harsh as it sounds.

While killing someone of your own race will cause you to turn red. it is really not for a long period of time. For example say you are Alfar and you kill one of your own race. Just head over to another races area and kill a couple of that race in this case we will say human. You would need to kill 2 or 3 of them to remove the Rogue(Red) status.  or if you are playing with freinds just have everyone create a different race. This what my friends and I did. So no matter where you are you can gank someone and not worry about going red. or if you did go red just beat on your friendsa abit to remove it.

Yes you can kill anyone on sight, or at least try to.

Loot is easy to get from crafting and mobs or from other players. So after a little while you find that losing your gear means very little.

With that said, the game is fun to a point. it is fun to start fighting a player only to find out they are a veteran and can smack you down really quick.

Darkfall has a 14 day trial. Give it a run and see if it is for you.

Originally posted by Juggler8

Originally posted by Sid_Vicious

Originally posted by Juggler8

I also find most PVE content in MMORPGs way to easy, but I don’t think it comes down to the AI, but more the death penalties become lighter and lighter. You still see a lot of players lose to mobs out there, but it still feels easy, because there is hardly any penalty. For not that long ago, I checked out the DConline open beta, and I ran away because of the penalty. No risk, all rewards are not for me.

But neither is FFA PvP. That again, does not come down to the skills or challenge of the players, but the mentality. Being able to assault and kill any players just because you can, do not help the immersion of a fantasy world for me. I get frustrated to walk around, doing some harvesting or whatever you can do in those games, and then some player, jumps out of a bush, slaps me down and hacks me to pieces, so he can steal a few cobs of corn or even worse, so he can feel superior.

 

I think I’m not the only one in the boat that would love to see a game, which was challenging with a reason. Greater Death penalties, so when you win (or if hard enough “avoid losing”) you are really satisfied. A game where you can have FFA PvP but with consequences for the attacker, so when they decide to attack anyone it comes with a deep cost (as in the RPG “Vampire the Masquerade” a humanity cost), so nobody would just go around and attack every single player controlled pixel they can find.

To sum up, PvE are in “modern” MMORPG easy because of light death penalties.

PvP are not fun, because there are no morals or consequences for hacking another player to pieces, so instead of having a game with intrigue conflicts, all we have are murder carnivals.

I agree in that having a risk when PVEing by actually losing something if you fail is much more important for PVE and PVP as well than it is for the game being hard. It creates much more of a thrill and realism.

 

If you are harvesting or whatever and some NPC were to come out of the bush to steal corn or simply because he doesnt like Humans or whatever race you play or to see you suffer, would it be more likely that you would play it? Consequences are just as important to me as FFA PVP but not in the sense that most people think as I would rather be the hero who is informed of the wrong-doer and be the one who is given the challenge of bringing justice. Wouldn't it be fun to track down people or monsters who killed an innocent person? That is the kind of thinking that I would love to see more of in this community. Usually when people think of consequences, they think of the game giving them a penalty which may end up giving people less freedom in the end . .. or am I wrong?

Yes, you are right that it would give people less freedom. I would like if we had full freedom, but I just don’t think we are ready for it.

I don’t have a problem with getting ganked or put six foot under the ground by another player IF when I ask why they attacked me the answer is not “OH, because I can you noob”. I would like a world where that answer is “you are the enemy of my state” or “that corn cob was the last within the next hundred leagues and it was either you feeding your family or I mine, and I knew you wouldn’t give it up without a fight”.

I don’t know if this makes sense, but, yes, full freedom would be nice, but for people to treat that with respect, I still think bigger consequences are needed, like outside the screen, E.G. sitting in a bar and this person is being rude to everyone. I have the freedom to go give him a nice smack down, but I have to weigh in the consequences whatever it is worth to go to jail for.

It is freedom for you to do what you want to do, as long as you are ready to face possible outcomes.

The only way to get that in a game, where players would actually weighing whatever their actions will be worth it or not, is by implementing some kind of penalty.

I don't think there really can be true freedom in a game as in life. There would be no penelties at all.  There needs to be consequences for your actions. Rewarded for doing well. Punished for doing wrong.  Most MMO's I'm aware of now have very little in the way of penelties or consequences for doing wrong or dieing.  I doubt there are enough players that would treat a truely freedom game with respect.

Take a look at Darkfall for example. My friends and I just quit about a month ago. One of the reasons was do to the lack of death penlaties, or consequences for going rogue. Right now darkfall would have to be the most Freedom based game there is. That is the problem. There are very few laws/Rules to abide by and what penalties you get are minimal. So you can go grief/gank your own race then just turn around and kill an opposing race to wear off the little penalty you get. There is no need to have players hunt down the aggressors.  Like there was in UO.  Even death has no penelty to it. You die you respawn with a little res sickness.

For the Op...

I don't think it is the FFA PVP that keeps people away per say. But more the Grind that goes with it.  More and more players are the casual style (Myself Included now). So they see this as losing everything then having to go out and get more or to stock pile a large supply = grind.

As for challenging content, I still think most players want a challenge but just more based on skill than time.  Most players would say Everquest was hard. When reallity it was not. it did have some hard content but most of the challenge was being patient enough to wait for spawns.  I don't think people want that time constraint anymore. Maybe one of the reasons why developers make the games to easy. The are eqaiting players complaints about challenge with time. So instead of making chellenging content that dont take long to get to. they are making the mobs to easy. (Just a thought on this though. I really have no idea.)

I did it with 2 characters in EQ2 when the level cap was 80. It almost felt like when the game came out. a decent challenge. I enjoyed the ride.  I kept all my spells/combat arts at Apprentice level and kept my gear at least 10 levels lower then mine.

I soloed one class a Swashbuckler. The other class was a Fury which I did with a gorup of friends. We all kept our gear and spells the same way and did all the dungeons except the ones at level cap. found they were a little to difficult with the lower gear and spells. The only time we would repair our gear was when they were completely broken.

If your heading from the commonlands entrance to the transport spire on the right is a path. Take that and go about half way up it. The Owlbears are on the right. They are very small. If you see Elder Owlbears your in the right area just look around for the small ones.

Wiki has them at -568,38,121

Good luck.

Is it possible that it is due to the game not being released till Tuesday? So they may not have it set up till then to work.

Originally posted by Ikeda

@Sam,

 

Could you please link this?  I was just on the Access list the other day and did NOT see it listed.

It is the FAQ.

http://www.dcuniverseonline.com/faq.vm

Personally I don't that will happen. I think most players want to be different even in looks.  Will there be some with the same gear showing, sure. But dont' think it will be as bad as say WOW.

Just a guess though. I know I never took the look of the new gear. just the stats.

I like both. depends on what I'm doing. Sometimes I'm listening to music so dont' have the game sounds on. So in that case would like to have text. other times when I'm grouped or engroused in the game I would liek to have voice with text.

Originally posted by JuJutsu

"As a PvE'er is there no for you playing in a wold where your challenges come not just from the AI but from other players?"

Not really. As a PvE player, other players are for cooperation and socialization not challenge. I also enjoy PvP on occaision but not within the MMORPG format.

I agree with this.

At my point in life. I now prefer just PVE. I can get enough challenge to suit me. For my PVP i now just prefer fps arena games.

Originally posted by Vahrane

        @ Otiro  ->  (I swaer he is a servant for tactics).    

       Did you mean savant here ?

Thanks, I fixed it. So much for my intelligence. lol

Originally posted by tralla

Originally posted by Otiro

Originally posted by tralla

"They don´t tax your intelligence"?

Guild Wars

Darkfall

nuff said.

Umm NO!!!!!!

 It takes as much intelligence to play these games as it does to play a game of jacks. If you can count your smart enough.

What i mean by these games requiering intelligence; They both require real life tactic planning to be dominant at, you don´t have to be a zerg to dominate (you could be a group of 8-10 skilled/intelligent peoples to dominate). And the most important thing, you dont have to grind to be competetive. (Darkfall beeing the only exception now, i should phrase it "early Darkfall" instead in the earlier post).

There is a difference between playing Intelligently and needing intelligence to play.  If these games really needed intelligence to play I would think the player base would be much smaller. (No offense Intended to anyone)

Now while there are players who are very skillful in playing compared to others don't confuse that with intelligence. One of my friends sons has Down Syndrom and can whip my but in most FPS's we play. (I swear he is a savant for tactics). But again that don't mean that it takes intelligence to play.

Originally posted by dnarris

Originally posted by imanorc

I've decides to spend the cash and try out the game.   I've heard the complaints of it being "too much clicking" or whatever, and I am getting to be a pretty old dude (That's why I like my 3-button rotation in Warcraft).

 

However, I've read DC comics for many, many, many years (Some things you never outgrow), and I can't wait to see that universe come to life.

Will it hold my attention? Who knows? Who cares?  If I get a month of entertainment from it, it's worth the money to buy it.

 

Now, you can all go on with your day having read this very important information.

 My 30th birthday is right around the corner and the game gives me trouble with my hands every once in a while.

As much as some MMO players hate to hear it, I find using a Xbox controller with this game is way easier on my hands. If you got one give it a shot. It felt way better for me than rapidly clicking mouse buttons.

I'm 48 And find my hands crimp up after using a controller for about an hour. I prefer the mouse and keyboard. 

I like the fact that you can play this game either way.

Originally posted by tralla

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

---

Originally posted by Rockgod99
I was playing very late last night and was extremely tired but let me tell you I was getting my ass handed to me. I think I died 10 times. God damn invasions running a train on me and quick camp respawns were kicking my ass. Not to mention the rift that suddenly opened directly above me that owned my face.

---

The normal questing, without rifts or invasions are pretty brainless. When you add in rifts, it gets a little harder, but not too much. The invasions make it so you have to be careful though, unless you want to die. The you have to visit the soul healer to be at 100% effectiveness again. You have to be careful more than you have to be smart.

Picking your souls can be tricky, but I'm not sure you can really gimp yourself for general game play. That's certainly something you could fix later if necessary. For end game, you'll have to plan a bit or find the inevitable Rift wiki to give you the ideal builds for any given situation.

We haven't seen the raids or high end dungeons yet, so we don't know if you'll have to learn dance moves, or if you have to learn some quick reflex responses. Maybe it'll be a bit of both.

But let's be realistic...it's an MMO. They don't tax your intelligence. They never have. They tax your patience (though Rift seems to tax it less imo, while still giving you some challenge if you want it). Most video games in general do not tax your intelligence much; mostly they suppress it. Rift isn't going to tax it any more or any less than most of the games out there.

"They don´t tax your intelligence"?

Guild Wars

Darkfall

nuff said.

Umm NO!!!!!!

 It takes as much intelligence to play these games as it does to play a game of jacks. If you can count your smart enough.

Originally posted by Trollarama

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Trollarama

Bronze has 2 bank slots. How many bank slots does it have for Silver upgrade?

4 bankslots and 2 shared. Also 4 characterslots. Silver is a one time upgrade for 10$ btw.

I bought Silver to take advantage of the double SC offer but I've just realized the housing limit in regards to 20g. I'm guessing I'm stuck with the basic accommodation unless I upgrade to gold.

Just so you know. That 20 gold is per level. So at level 10 you can have 200 gold on you (2 plat).

So go ahead and get a bigger house if you like, you will be able to afford it. There is a house in New halas that is big with I think 5 vault slots. which is quite cheap. 

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by chrisel

 Such a game would be the ultimate fail. What happens with the newbs when community has reached end level? This actually made me laugh. No sane person would ever make a game where you would need a group for all.

 Keep on dreaming.

 

I don't see it as needing a group. I see it as any other game that is played with another person.

the object is to play with someone else.

You're thinking of it like, oh my, I need to move my Chess pieces on the board, why would I have to wait on someone else to do that?

I'm thinking of it like, why would I move my Chess pieces on the board, if there is no one to play Chess with?

 

In fact most games require other people to play.

Nothing happens to newbs when the community reaches end level. There is no solo game, there is no grinding up your character by yourself.

The game is playing with other people. If there are no other people, there is no game.

It's like Call of Duty. If you log on and there's no one to play with, you can't play.

Your thinking is flawed.  At least with these examples.

Most of the best Chess players in the world play for hours by themselves playing both black and white to test new stratagy and defenses for it. before playing others. Also you can play chess on the pc solo.

Call of duty is a solo playable game with co-op, or lobby matches against others. I am sure most people play the solo campaign.

So in each example you gave thinking they are only playable with others is wrong. Same with any mmorpg. If there is no solo content at all you will have such a low player base that getting groups would be extremely hard to come by. Plus, no company would ever propose a game such as you want.  it is just not a fiscally viable.

I do feel for your plight. I just don't think it will ever happen. Reason being most players will not keep logging on if there is no way to do anything except wait for others.

other inherent problems with a forced group game:

Players not liking each other so don't want to group.

Players disagreeing on what content to do.

Players refusing to group with someone due to there gear they are wearing or is a class/skill set not wanted or needed for that group.

There will always be players left out or shunned in a forced grouping game. These player will quit, making the population smaller. Smaller population equals less chance for others to group. Whom then will quit. In time you would be playing the game with only a handeful of friends.  Or even end up playing solo. (Yes extreme put plausable) You can do that now in any MMO out. Just bring your friends into the game then you always have your group.

But good luck in your battle. Just dont' count me in.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by rwittmaack

What use is talking about community feedback, when they're simply not listenting?
 It's appears in their posts as long as it's trivial enough to write a online about it but the core issues of the game still fall on daft ears, even after 2 years of constant complaining.

Core issues ?  Madness explained already....

 

Its a damn working game..game cant do nothing for you not liking it..they have and will always expand to it ..what do you want more ?

There is only one explanation for talking about core issues at this point..you want to play a different game then Darkfall...and there is solution for you ..there is plenty of it around ....

Well you proved Madnessrelam's point.

As far as your post. I am playing other games, due to the fact that darkfall is not a game for me:

Lack of toys in the sandbox. 

To carebear for me.  No skill cap and no death penalty makes this to simple of a game. and they are adding off line skill ups. (The reason I don't play EVE). Just means that the game is made for those that want everything handed to them, with out working for it.

After all this time, the game still only has about half of what Aventurine first proposed. 

So I would say Aventurine still has not fixed the games core issues.

Started with pong.

Atari 2600

Calico Vision (not sure if spelled correctly)

Atari 400

Atari 800

Sega genesis.

Intellivision

Never had a console since.