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All Posts by aRtFuLThinG

All Posts by aRtFuLThinG

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Originally posted by seacow1g

And now we get to the source of your problem. You can't see how death systems relate to these issues. If you understood it you'd understand why I think it's so important.

I think you got to realise that people who have opposing opinion to you, from what I can read, do understand. However in THEIR opinion it is not a priority to them or they don't have the same opinion on it as you.


Everyone has their own opinion on the importance/unimportance of the death mechanic and there is where your problem lies. You are going under the assumption that it is a statement of fact rather than an opinion. It is not. Death/penalty mechanic is a matter of opinion, and that opinion is diverse and everyone has different ideas from the looks of the comments.


That's why, what you said about the death mechanic and it's importance in the scheme of things is probably not reasonable to a lot of people. That's is also why developers tend to favor inclusive approach rather than exclusive.

Originally posted by seacow1g

You're focusing on semantics.

Semantics is everything, especially the fact that you are talking about game design decisions since every little thing affects the playability of a game;  And saying that, as your title suggests, "death is the single MOST important design decision" - it is not actually. There are a lot of other more important decisions, such as story-arc, quest design, arts design, combat/contest engine and mechanic, etc.


This is not to mention that not all "failures" in the progress of a player in a game necessarily can be represented by "death" or "penalty" either, which from what I can see seems to be what you are implying.


For example, crafting has no penalty - losing mats in a fail attempt even if there is such a thing is NOT a penalty. It is more the cost of doing business. Or in building and management games, not getting the best whatever (mats/npc assistant/town or infrastructure design/whatever) is NOT a penalty, it just means you do less well with what you got. HOWEVER not of those above necessarily means the game is less fun than game/part of games that has penalty. It all just depends on the player themselves of what they like and prefer.


And player opinions/population is a lot more diverse than you seem to imply.




Originally posted by Dibdabs
Originally posted by seacow1g

You're underthinking it. Simulations of combat in games is totally underepresenting the experience. Oftentimes you don't feel the exhilaration, fear, anxiety, comradery etc that comes with real combat. 

You see, you're under a number of illusions here.  Firstly, just because I grasp what you mean doesn't mean I consider it rational.  Secondly, you will NEVER simulate combat in a game to the point where it feels like "real combat" and trying to explain your point of view in these terms is plain bonkers.  How my pixels die on my computer screen is beyond trivial, and as someone earlier pointed out, you are way, WAY overthinking this.  

^ This.


Not only that, I think OP was also under the assumption that death is important part of the gaming experience to gamers in general (ie. assumption that this opinion holds for most players). Truth is it does not, and death does not.


If it was so, games such as SimCity or Football Manager would've never become popular, because you can't die in it, it is just about creating and managing things. However statistic says otherwise.


As another poster mentioned death in games was only meant to represent "failure" experience, nothing more. That's why in some MMOs (such as lotro or swtor) the are not even called death, but "defeated" or simply "failed".  Simulation of death has proved to often times been less than necessary in some games.


It all depends on the game or what genre of game that it is.

Originally posted by lizardbones

Consumers will take a substandard product because they have to, but not because they want to.  Playing SWToR is a want, not a need.  SWToR has something that people want.  "Star Wars IP" by itself does not answer the question of why players have continued to play the game since 2011.  I agree that it is certainly something that will draw people in.  But it wouldn't keep them playing this long by itself.  It wouldn't have made the F2P transition as successful as it was by itself.


It might be a "first world need" for those Star Wars fans but it is indeed a need for them.


Emotional need is also a need for some - not just eating, sleeping a drinking.


Star Wars experience for some Star Wars fans is very emotional.

Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by stragen001
Originally posted by orionblack
Originally posted by jesteralways

3 things make people come  and play the game : 

1. the name Star Wars

2. Star Wars

3. star wars

This ^...because if it was not a Star Wars game, it would have been shut down a long time ago.

Yes, this

If this logic was accurate, SWG would still be running.  BioWare is at least as important a part of the equation as Star Wars, if not more important.

They WERE still running fine when they were shut down.


They were shutdown because their SW license got revoked to make way for SWTOR.


SWG STILL has fans making and running emulators and that population is NOT small (definitely more than the number of people that play Mortals Online or Darkfall or any smaller and crappier mmos), and you are talking about graphics from 10 years ago.


That alone should be enough to prove the power of the Star Wars brand.

Bored or something significant got taken away/lost


8 words

Worst Game Ever
General Discussion « Rust
1/15/14 8:59:33 PM
Originally posted by lizardbones

I would mostly agree with the expressed preferences against the whole open world pvp thing, but Rust is sitting in Steam's Top 10 right now for concurrent players, above DayZ. 'Worst Game Ever' doesn't seem to apply.

I would agree with that Steam top 10 assessment.


Rust seems to be better than DayZ at this stage because of a) the building and crafting element and b) the movements

Originally posted by Scypheroth

by that i mean....nothing new is comming out at all...seems liek the PC gaming market is getting smaller n smaller or maybe its just me...i remember being a kid back in the 90's and having too many games to play on my there is none that intrest me nore are any good....


Every game seems the be the same thing over n over....every mmo is the same old grind to max lvl....FPS are the same ol shoot this get that....i for one miss the old RTS games....i donno maybe its just me...think i might need to get into a new hobby...or may haps pick up a console....

You haven't been keeping an eye on Steam haven't you?

Only been checking out EB charts haven't you?


There are heaps of games and a lot of the indie developers are making damn good stuff.

Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by crack_fox
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo

I think Tolkien was just a tad bit racist lol.  I mean if black and indian colored people were with sauron in his books thats kind of like saying black and indian people are with satan...

That has never been my understanding. I have always taken it to mean that their leaders have fallen under Sauron's influence, not that those peoples are themselves evil. For me, what stands out in Tolkien's writing is the emphasis on social class rather than race. The only evil race are the orcs, and when they speak Common their vocabulary is that of the English working class. The heroes by contrast are largely of 'better stock' with the notable exception of loyal Sam, the subservient commoner who clearly 'knows his place'. 


Samwise was fashioned after the batmen in the British army (officer stewards). The loyal Tommy Aitkens.


Tolkien was a product of his age, and by todays standards would be considered "old fashioned" to put it nicely. He was also deeply religious and a devout Roman Catholic, and very sensitive of being Catholic in Protestant England (he regarded his mother, who converted to Catholicism, a "martyr" for what she faced for doing so [she died just a decade later than her husband, leaving Tolkien and his brother orphans]). Not only did he detest the USA, he detested the French and the modern world and it's machines (he regarded the firebombing of Dresden and the atomic bomb drops as hellish). All that came from his writings. You can just regard him as your typical midlands British subject, which he was, and just as fussy.


For him the world would be what he experienced as a poor orphan during the Imperial age. His fascination for languages, like Welsh (foreign and almost driven to extinction in his day), is what drove him to write stories of fantasy of the medieval world. Add the hardships he faced as a sub-lieutenant during WWI, it shaped his worldview overall.


But his world was white with all the prejudices and racism of the time. Much like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was a product of his generation. It's hard to judge them because that was the status quo of the day, but they were that.

^ Good post.


And you are correct imo. On top of that Tolkien's time was NOT the Information Age we got to remember - it is NOT an age where information about places and people are readily available, where a lot of people is still uneducated, and where a lot of people still has not travelled very far (because shipping was still the main mode of transportation for passengers at distance and ships are slow).


That's why Englishmen back in the early 1900's called Africa the "Dark Continent" - NOT because the people are dark skinned, but because they know next to nothing about Africa and it is "in the dark" to them - a view which is highly reflective I think in Tolkien's writings (we know next to nothing about the South, the swarthy people and the Easterlings, nothing about their history or kings, in the Tolkien's universe, because they were in the regions so dominated by the influence of Sauron and before him, Morgoth.

Originally posted by lizardbones

I can't decide if stuff like this is actual racism, since the arguments against things like this tend to get racist as hell, or if it's just the normal nerd behavior that can't deal with changes to continuity and retcons. Even though retcons and continuity changes have been happening since the beginning of entertainment. Just read a history of Egyptian gods or the gods of the Aztecs and Incas to see how they retcon entire histories of the universe as one city comes into power and their patron god gets carried along for the ride.

I think it is more because of the likelihood that people tends to write stories relevant to themselves or their own situation.


I mean, how many sci-fi novel out there do you see people writing about an Alien living in an alien civilization and has no mention of humanity in anyway? Very few - it is because it is hard and might even be quite relevant to relate to things that are entirely alien to us.


It is like watching Aliens if it was films in the perspective of an alien. What's the point? Wake up, eat, kill a few humans, sleep... there is no way that we can possibly understand and hard to try to understand their motives, even if we want to, because they have no relevance to us and our own situations.


Even when a novel is written about species/races other than ourselves it is always linked back to us or culturally and morally similar to our situations, in some way.

Originally posted by Gilllean
Originally posted by donpopuki
What did Africans do? Oh I dunno there's a place called Egypt...pretty much invented civilization.

But back on topic most of the time I play elves in MMOs

Did you ever found Egyptian culture attractive ? YES all legends construction history is interesting intelligent . But their warriors equipment style design is a joke.

Their equipment design is a "Joke" as you put it because:

a. Their culture (when they were at their peak) predates iron age and horseback riding (saddles).

b. Egypt is hot. It is impractical to carry all armor and gear.

c. Egypt is basically a nation of river running through a desert. They don't have access to a lot of copper and tin (essential for bronze making).


Context buddy. You got to consider the context. Their gears are not "uncool" because they want to look that way, it is practicality that dictates otherwise.


If you look at ancient Punic culture (Cathage, North Africa), you will see that their gear's style do not significantly differ from the Tharacians or Greeks.


Also if you look at ancient China (where it is cold during winter months) you will see their armor style is a lot more protective and better looking, even during Bronze Age.



Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by pokolo

then just play west games (there's enough of them).

archeage thanks god east game - and i will vote for bikini with my money (no  cosplay stuff = no money from me and i'm not beggar)

Thanks, that's exactly what I am going to do.

Let's see if catering for people like you is more profitable than catering for people like me.

I am willing to bet that if Archeage (by Trion) incorporate this kind of stuff, the game will bomb, Westeners take immersion more seriously than Asians.

Population of China - 1.3 billion (not including the rest of East Asia, all highly populated)

Population of Russia - 143 million


Population of US - 314 million (not including other western countries, all not very populated)

Population of Europe - 739 million


Yeah sure... I don't think Westerners are going to win this one. Not. Even. Close.

MMOExposed, I think your point is valid, however the the example of LOTR is actually invalidating your point rather than helping it.


Any reasonably knowledge in LOTR lore will know that in Middle-Earth history the swarthy and dark skinned people were influenced by Melkor (Morgoth the great enemy) since the dawn of time and thus they fear the light. The "fair" skinned people are from Numenor breed, the once that fought with the Elves during the first age (and in fact, saved the Elves in many ways) and thus why they are what they are (not to mention that the Numenor or high men actually has Elven blood because their ancestors are the children of Beren and Luthien that's why their appearance is more fair than even the "middle men" such as the Dale folks and the people of Rohan, and their lives are actually much longer (high men can actually live up to 200-300 years of age).


It has nothing to do with prejudice, racism or races. It was just the way that the story was designed.- and the story was designed using Nordic lores as a reference.


If you look at other fantasy settings such as Conan, Pathfinder and Forgotten Realms there are plenty of heroes of other ethnicities.





Originally posted by sludgebeard

I mean think about it, I played up till WOTLK, the game was drastically different back then, more grouping and open world pvp just to name a couple things.


I spent half a grand on this game, and I cant even install it and play for a minute because of how poorly designed and away from its original content the game has become. So my question is, do I have any right to legal recourse against Blizzard? Or am I just forced to play a game that is drastically different than what I agreed to originally?

Seriously, why do people who play mmos have this above type of ridiculous concept where your money spent DON'T depreciate with time and e-products are NOT real products?? :/


Hell if you bought a pair of designer shoes for $500 5 years ago you WOULD NOT ask for money back just because the brand changed the fashion style...

Or you WOULD NOT ask for money back on the food you ate just because they changed the favour...


You have already spent your money's worth and got your value for it. Get over it.

Why bother wasting time jumping into a forum of a game that I no longer wish to play just to critique?


I have been playing swg emulators and other games that I've like. Everything is great and I'm happy. Don't even want to concern myself with EA's swtor. It is what I don't like, prolly won't change. I'll let the people who like it do their thing.


It is like if I drive a GT86 why would I jump into a Z3 forum to critique on Z3? I don't like that car, don't care. 

Originally posted by catlana
Originally posted by goldtoof
No its not

Pc is the largest selling platform.

All consoles combined outsell pc, but no individual console does.

Quoting figures for individual games means nothing. The pc market, and pc gamers is more varied in its taste. Consoles tend to be boom or bust with their games, they're either massive hits like gta, cod and gow or they do nothing.

GTA V has out sold every other video game this year. GTA V may eventually be ported to PC. However, Rockstar did not port Red Dead to pc. Rockstar has obviously concluded that releasing on PC costs them money.

You may be right on total sales but for an individual game basis consoles have much higher numbers.

That speaks more for the strength of GTA series, NOT the strength of console. GTA could've released V on iphone/android and it would have been sold in vast numbers just the same. There is virtually no way to tank it unless they did something really stupid.


However, if devs try releasing indie or smaller/unheard of games on console, I don't even think the dev will even make 10k in sales. On steam on PC on the other hand, people gobble it up like no tomorrow as long as they sell it cheap.


And corrrection on the all consoles combined outsell pc part, they don't and it is not even close. Just goggle some stats you will find it.

Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

The thing that I don't get with the permadeath systems out there is why don't any of them have some sort of accompanying heritage system?


Like for example say you are part of a clan, if your char permadeaths, you can create a char that carries on the wealth and attributes of the previous char (not the xp though of course) using the same family name.


Of course if you area  loner then permadeath will be permadeath.


That way, you are motivating people to form clans or associate with other people as soon as they can but at the same time still having the permadeath penalty.


Star Citizen will have permadeath, but you select an heir who will inherit all the wealth and ships upon death (minus taxes and illegal goods I bet, hehehehe).

Like you see, Cloud Computing doesn't believe in forcing people into joining a "clan" to get access to the game feature.

That's sounds like a good thing SC is doing.


I don't see it as "access to feature" though, it is more like it makes logical sense - I mean how do you have heirs if you don't associate with anyone, lol? :P I guess we can start genetically ourselves for asexual reproduction maybe


I mean I wouldn't call forcing people to get access to feature if I don't have access to guild combat/guild halls if I don't have a guild.

Originally posted by Jagsman32
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Footsore
Originally posted by mari3k
Originally posted by Footsore
Well from just watching the new Darkfall trailer, I gotta say I was brought back to DAoC pvp in a big way. It looks like it may be worth a look.

Darkfail has nothing to do with Daoc. Its an insult to mention it in the same sentence as the great daoc.

Maybe you should look back at WoW, it has improved very much.

DAOC was great fun until the first major content patch, but everyone quit after that. I'm just saying that the trailer strongly reminded me of it. The fortress defenses, Epic battlegrounds, etc. Darkfall Unholy War got an enthusiastic first look review, and has a pretty decent 7.6 score, and most importantly its not asian managed...

lol racist much?


Most game aren't managed by Asian country owners (or as you said, "Asian managed") anyways - the might own stakes in it but they don't manage it.


The only one that sells to the west that I can think of that is developed by Asian countries is Age of Wushu, and they are doing a pretty decent job.


Also, in general, a very significant portion of the people in the IT/CGI industry are of Asian ethnicity (East-Asian or Indian or Middle East background).


What the hell? Who cares. Take your little PC rant elsewhere.

Lol so basically not only that it is okay to be factually wrong BUT it is also okay to just generalize a whole population of people make crap?


lol okay

Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by goboygo
Originally posted by Params7
Originally posted by mari3k

full loot system = dead game.

Be wise and don't make player looting, otherwise game will fail like darkfall.



Plenty of themeparks for you. Please let us have just one of these good, AAA-level medieval hardcore mmo. I've been craving for one while you themparkers get new MMOs to enjoy every single month. 

Lets see if the developers can figure out how to offer "full loot" without killing their own game off.  I haven't seen anyone pull it off yet.


Eve have high sec zones... so the danger of full loot to players is significantly reduced.


So in a sense it is not really "full-loot" as in the sense of people meaning free-for-all full loot.

Not even the same crowd.


EVE is like Civilizations with spaceships, Star Citizen is a space version of Pirates! series of games.


People who like EVE will probably find Star Citizen too simplistic and combat too hands on.

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