Originally posted by B1ight

doesn't matter i can't even get their pos software to accept my CC.  Even though every other website on the internet accepts it.. Oh well their loss.. Just instills the fact that the reasons I quit playing FFXI before are still valid and that FFXIV will not be worth the money spent on it.

So you've already made up your mind, good, then we don't have to listen to your outrageous attitude any longer.  I'm not sure how a billing issue is one of the reasons or has anything to do with the reason you quit the first time, it seems like you just are really angry and want to rage about it.

Guess what?

Fixing a problem is an adults way of doing things, crying about a problem is the way children handle things.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Dang found those pooky video's on Youtube...

 

If combat is really that slow, its not my kind of game...  It looked right out boring to me....

Keeping in mind that the person had just started the game, and that most games at the start are slow paced and you have little in the way of choices for your attacks.

WoW you only get one or two buttons to start with and it takes a while to kill any mob, about 20-30 seconds.

Aion is the same way, so is AoC, in fact pretty much every online MMO you start out with almost no buttons and very slow combat.

I'm not saying this will change later on in every one of those games, Aion combat actually seems to get longer on mobs at some points, so does AoC taking more moves and strategy to kill monsters is their idea of leveling progression.

Ultimately my point is take the wait and see approach, obviously every game isn't for every person, but the first 4 hours of a games combat will undoubtedly be similar to what you saw in every game.

Never did, not sure what you mean, it has ASWD and 4862 style control for movement, which is one more style than most games have.

What server are you on?

I'm playin on Diabolos if you are I can show you around... if not there are a lot of people on the forums who are playing on other servers too.

Anywho for most questions I go to FFXIcyclopedia its a great resource for 11.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

Edit: I sent you a PM with more info ^.^

Originally posted by relliscg

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by Hathi

Just to sir the pot a little - 

If i wanted to buy this game today how much would I need to pay nowadays?

Mount costs more than World of Warcraft game?

http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Pc/dp/B000067FDW

Keeping in mind that is without either of the two exp packs, so you'd have to shell out 40 more dollars to be able to get the "full game."

Don't forget to factor in the subscription itself: $15/month * 12 months = $180/yr.  If you have been playing wow like many for many years (I will use 4 years just as an example), $180/yr * 4 yrs = $720.  Because of how long I have been playing (over 4 yrs myself), I actually consider this game to be an investment of sorts.  That is a bit of money to put to a video game, but heck, I enjoy playing it, and hopefully will continue to do so.

So my two questions are:

1) Is $25 after years of gameplay really that bad?

and

2) Anyone else feel that it is an investment?

Personally I think your nuts for buying the mount however... I will defend your right to do so to the bitter end.

I have many friends who collect many different things, one of my friends LOVES hallow ween so much her apartment looks like a freak show year round.  She has spent thousands of dollars on dolls and fake skeletons and plastic zombies.

At least this mount doesn't take up space in her apartment and look extremely gawdy when you have friends come over to hang out.  There is something to be said for hobbies that don't take up all the room in your house.

Hobbies are hobbies, you spend money on them because its worth it to you.  Thats a good thing!

Originally posted by Comnitus

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by Comnitus

Nothing's wrong with renting, I'm not sure where Laughing-man was trying to go with that really.
 

 

What I'm saying is that if you rent something, say a video, could you then make copies of said video and sell them for profit?

No.

Could you rent an apartment and then charge people to also live there with you even though the contract says only 1 person may live in that apartment? 

When you rent something there are restrictions on what sort of use is allowed with said item or thing you are renting, you can't just use it willy nilly for what ever you desire.

Okay, so you're treating the subscription to the game as a rental agreement. You're paying to use Blizzard's servers and technology in the game... makes more sense now.

Yes, thats what a terms of service is.  A rental contract.

Originally posted by Comnitus

Nothing's wrong with renting, I'm not sure where Laughing-man was trying to go with that really.
 

 

What I'm saying is that if you rent something, say a video, could you then make copies of said video and sell them for profit?

No.

Could you rent an apartment and then charge people to also live there with you even though the contract says only 1 person may live in that apartment? 

When you rent something there are restrictions on what sort of use is allowed with said item or thing you are renting, you can't just use it willy nilly for what ever you desire.

Originally posted by Terikan3

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Cash shops - Generally cosmetic items, money goes to the company who made the game to further make more things for the game, as it is their right to do so.

Gold selling - Unbalances game play, money goes to a third party where they will use it to go and spam more people with their ads, bot and farm and steal all the monsters from you so they can earn gold faster so they can sell it.  You feed them.   They are stealing intellectual property, you do not "OWN" the rights to WoW when you buy the box you are merely renting them.  When a gold seller takes gold from that company and sells it to you they are making money off rented property, its immoral and illegal.

Part of an mmo's gameplay and focus is the cosmetic.  Appearances, while not important in single player games, are very valuable and enhance the experience in a massively multiplayer environment.  So cash shops unbalance 'game play' as well. 

Similarly, the cash shop and gold selling are both businesses that will throw their ads in your face, and use the resources to continue this trade.  You might hope that the money you pay to the company goes to developing free or subscription content, but you can't really assert that this is necessarily the case.

The rest of your post was about arbitrary rules.  Lots of people make money off of rented property (like you know, most businesses that lease property) and there's nothing immoral about it.  And IN FACT, it is NOT illegal to sell WoW gold, just so you know.  Seems to be a common misconception.  ToS != Law.

You are correct that the terms of service are not legally binding, however your actions if they break the laws can be held accountable.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9723906-7.html

If gold selling isn't illegal why were they sued successfully in the past?  Just google "gold sellers sued" and you can see all the successful law suits.  Clearly it is not legal to sell others property without their consent.

When you lease something you can SUB lease it yes, however you can't just out right sell it to someone else and wash your hands of it.  You cannot rent an apartment sign a lease that agrees to only having one person live there and start renting it out to three other people.  You still must stay within the rules laid out in the contract.

The bottom line is this, When you buy from a cash shop you are supporting the company that makes the game.

When you buy from a 3rd party gold seller you are not.

If you want to debate if a company should sell their own currency then that would just break game balance and would lose subscription numbers  which is counter productive.

Originally posted by Hathi

Just to sir the pot a little - 

If i wanted to buy this game today how much would I need to pay nowadays?

Mount costs more than World of Warcraft game?

http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Pc/dp/B000067FDW

Keeping in mind that is without either of the two exp packs, so you'd have to shell out 40 more dollars to be able to get the "full game."

Cash shops - Generally cosmetic items, money goes to the company who made the game to further make more things for the game, as it is their right to do so.

Gold selling - Unbalances game play, money goes to a third party where they will use it to go and spam more people with their ads, bot and farm and steal all the monsters from you so they can earn gold faster so they can sell it.  You feed them.   They are stealing intellectual property, you do not "OWN" the rights to WoW when you buy the box you are merely renting them.  When a gold seller takes gold from that company and sells it to you they are making money off rented property, its immoral and illegal.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Laughing-man

To start with you generally are buying gold from a 3rd party, which is viewed as stealing.

By the company. Not by me. I have never bought gold or any in-game items for an MMO, but I think the difference in WHO is selling the gold is trivial.

You are making a profit off something you are renting, that would be akin to copying a DVD you rented from block buster and selling copies on the street.

That is wrong.  At least legally. 

To start with you generally are buying gold from a 3rd party, which is viewed as stealing.

If you are buying gold from the company that makes the game it would unbalance the game play if it was allowed is the general thought.

The difference is that Cash shop items generally don't unbalance game play, gold would.

Originally posted by uohaloran

 

---

Originally posted by SuperXero89
Education and good grades matter in life.

---

 

In your opinion.

I can't find anything in life that matters other than family and friends. Everything else is superfluous.

In other words, ALL THINGS ARE OBJECTIVE AND SUBJECTIVE!  They hold no intrinsic value they only hold the value which you assign them!

Originally posted by Drachasor

Anyhow, just because a company CAN do a thing and make money, doesn't mean it is RIGHT for them to do so.  I'd think this would be a rather obvious idea for everyone to grasp, but it seems like we have some dissent here.  Unfortunately this clogs up the more interesting discussion of whether what Blizzard has done here is something that is good or bad.

"Right" and "Wrong" are moral abstract concepts, if you are arguing that you feel it is immoral then you will find just as many people arguing that they find it is moral.

Edit: grammar

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Malickie

http://us.blizzard.com/store/details.xml?id=1100000942

 

"Freshly born from the Twisting Nether, the Celestial Steed flying mount lets you travel in style astride wings of pure elemental stardust.  So saddle up, because this supernatural warhorse will fly as fast as your riding skill will take you, and it will travel at 310% speed if you have at least one other 310% mount.  


Once activated, this World of Warcraft in-game mount key applies to all present and future characters on a single North American World of Warcraft license."

It is unclear HOW it works from this. It definitley applies to all characters on your account - current and future.

I am still not clear on how the scaling works.

When you train the riding skill level you unlock that skill in your skill book, when its unlocked your Celestial Steed will now move at the higher riding skill level when you summon him.

Here is a list of the riding skill levels, their cost, and how to obtain them ect.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Mount

Edit: there are already several mounts that work the same way, the Headless Horseman's Horse for instance is a drop only at halloween however it's speed scales with your top available speed.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Panther2103

It does scale to the highest mount, but if you have epic flying training. Which usually allows you to go 280%, because most of the epic flyers are 280, this mount allows you to go 310% speed, which is like the ultra rare drops, and the arena mount.

So it is a tad more than fluff.

You have to already have a 310% speed mount for it to be 310% speed, meaning you'd still have to have achieved something very difficult to fly that speed.  More difficult than paying 25 bucks.

LOL, my head is spinning now, so it is based off what mounts you previously own?

310% speed mounts are VERY RARE!

Only a handful exist and they are all difficult and require a lot of effort to get.

Every other speed of mount you train from an NPC.

So unless you already have earned the 310% speed by owning one of the mounts that has that speed attached to it, then you will never have your mount going at 310%.  At least until you have earned it.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Laughing-man

#1. Mounts cost is minimal in the game as it is, the actual cost of the riding training is way greater than the cost of the mounts.

#2. IF you buy it, and level on a low level character, IF.

#3.  Yes the mount scales with your skill level, which you actually have to buy, and is greater in cost than ANY mount in the game by far.  So you would be saving a microscopic amount of "gold" by buying this in game mount.

The only reason you would buy this mount is to actually have a cool looking flying horse.  You wouldn't be buying it to "save money on my alt" because again the amount of gold you save is tiny.

5000 + 250 + 50 + 4 gold is the amount of money you would need for TRAINING.

100 + 50 + 10 + 1 gold is how much all the mounts combined would cost you.

In other words you would be only saving yourself 161 gold by paying 25 REAL dollars, 161 gold which you can earn in less than an hour easily.  

It is not selling gold because the amount of gold you would be buying would literally be only 161 gold!

You would STILL need to farm up 5304 gold for all the mount training!

edit: for added effect thats nearly 33 TIMES more gold!

161 gold - for every character on the account. All you are arguing is how much gold Blizzard has sold you. Not that they have sold you gold.

What if you have all your characters at max level already?  Like I'm sure many people do?

I quit WoW recently for an unrelated reason, however I already had 4 80s and no need or desire to level any other alt characters.  I'm sure I'm not the only one as I played with many people who were just as far along as I was.

161 gold LITERALLY takes less than an hour to make.  I made 40k in a week to be able to buy my Shadow's Edge.

I'd also like to mention that you don't even need to buy those mounts AT ALL!

On my last toon I leveled to 80, my druid, I never bought him a single mount!  Meaning buying this mount would have saved me 0 gold.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Panther2103

It does scale to the highest mount, but if you have epic flying training. Which usually allows you to go 280%, because most of the epic flyers are 280, this mount allows you to go 310% speed, which is like the ultra rare drops, and the arena mount.

So it is a tad more than fluff.

You have to already have a 310% speed mount for it to be 310% speed, meaning you'd still have to have achieved something very difficult to fly that speed.  More difficult than paying 25 bucks.

Originally posted by Malickie

I'm not exactly sure why you're asking me about Doubters points, or how you're relating it to my post, so i can't really comment on that.

Anyway, your first question was a good one. Where are they going with it? Who knows, but something has to be biting them on the back of the neck right about now. If not, there's at least a little voice saying, what would we get for an epic item or a tiered armor set..

You know it, I know it, we all know it. That's not to say they would go that far, it's just hard to believe they haven't thought about it.

 

Sorry was responding to two posts at the same time, I did not want to double post.

Edit: oh and I agree with you, if they start selling gear and screw up their game I will be outraged too, however I'm merely siding on the side of patience, I believe they will NOT step over that line.

Maybe I am naive, maybe others are paranoid, time will ultimately decide the outcome.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Laughing-man

 

The argument that Doubter made saying that buying it is like buying gold is ridiculous.  What if you go buy a soda from the corner store and the store owner goes out and buys Crystal Meth and dies, are you killing him?  

That is the most bizzarre and illogical analogy I have ever read.

I'm not going to write it again. If you can't understand it, that's your issue, not mine.

Your action, buying a mount, does not make you directly at fault for every consequence that follows.  IE them selling you a mount for money does not mean they are selling you gold, there are mounts you can only obtain through the trading card game, does that mean that when you buy trading cards you are buying gold too?

Those mounts don't scale to your character's riding skill.

No, because the "funds" are non transferable  you can't sell your mount that you bought with money for gold, the action may SAVE you money but SAVING money is not in effect SELLING you money when you buy something that SAVES it.

If you buy insurance and you need to collect on it, does that mean they were selling you "money"?  

If it saves you from buying a mount on alternate characters thats all nice and good, however that is insurance, what if you never roll another character, then you are in effect not saving any money at all.

If you buy it on a low level character, then you never have to buy another mount. Even as your riding skill goes up in level.

If Blizzard sold you  a code that dropped all your purchase costs by 10%, that would be the same as selling you gold. A penny saved is a penny earned.

As I said in another post - I may be mistaken on that point (about it scaling with your skill(, but that is my current understanding.

#1. Mounts cost is minimal in the game as it is, the actual cost of the riding training is way greater than the cost of the mounts.

#2. IF you buy it, and level on a low level character, IF.

#3.  Yes the mount scales with your skill level, which you actually have to buy, and is greater in cost than ANY mount in the game by far.  So you would be saving a microscopic amount of "gold" by buying this in game mount.

The only reason you would buy this mount is to actually have a cool looking flying horse.  You wouldn't be buying it to "save money on my alt" because again the amount of gold you save is tiny.

5000 + 250 + 50 + 4 gold is the amount of money you would need for TRAINING.

100 + 50 + 10 + 1 gold is how much all the mounts combined would cost you.

In other words you would be only saving yourself 161 gold by paying 25 REAL dollars, 161 gold which you can earn in less than an hour easily.  

It is not selling gold because the amount of gold you would be buying would literally be only 161 gold!

You would STILL need to farm up 5304 gold for all the mount training!

edit: for added effect thats nearly 33 TIMES more gold!