Asheron's Call - Darktide.

Still the best PvP an MMO has offered to date.

Originally posted by Ramonski7

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Ramonski7

 

 but I still have to say there is more to sandbox mmos than PvP.

I do not disagree with that.  Nothing I have said in this thread disagrees with that.

However, I do not believe that is what you have been saying throughout this thread.

The thread title is laying blame on FFA PvP for the issue in sandboxes.  Yet as I pointed out earlier in this thread, the majority of people have a problem with sandboxes long before you get to the PvP.

I came at the thread along the lines of your offering a persuasive argument.  However, you focused entirely too much on the issue of griefers - games that are the equivalent of a MMOFPS - and wanting to seek balance by swinging the pendulum more to the gatherer side.  Do I get caught up on words and absolutes at times?  Yes, I do.  Quite a bit, to be honest.

You split the groups up into hunters vs. gatherers.  You favor the gatherer group (Did not say that).  You dislike the hunter group (Never once did I say this).  That comes across throughout the thread (How did everyone but you get the message that I was stating: Devs have to stop trying to balance/build games around PvP and start building them around just living).

You want sandbox games to be more social (don't forget crafter and builder friendly as well).  FFA PvP forces one to be more social (Forced socializing is not good socializing).  You cannot survive on your own.  Yet, you dismiss this (UO was one of the most solo friendly mmos out there).  FFA PvP games are some of the most social games (No, social games are some of the most social games out there).  They are generally despised by the solo player (Actually most older solo players could care less if a game has FFA PvP or not).  I mentioned that several pages back.

You rail against FFA PvP and what it has done to sandbox games, ignoring what other issues they have (The "other" issues is the just of my arguement because of the focus on balancing a game around FFA PvP, devs generally spend less time trying to improve weaker parts of these mmos).  Frankly, there has been more discussion in this thread on how to improve the PvE aspects of sandboxes when you were not involved.  Just more comments against PvP, those that enjoy PvP, and the like... (Do you mean before or after i took the time to try to explain to you that I'm not attacking PvPers, but discussing how I think the focus on building sandbox mmos centered on PvP need to shift to more social aspects?)

Ok look. Take either of the 3 sandbox mmos out there right now DF, MO and EvE and ask yourself this. Is the game built around FFA PvP or is FFA PvP an option in the game? Because all I here from all there games is the lack of more players to make the worlds seem livelier. Well that's becasue the main focus is on balancing things around PvP and not around anything else from the Bartle's view.

One of my all time joys in UO was finding treasure maps and sailing out to locate them and saving enough gold to afford a stone keep. I decorated my home with crafted items and veteran items. Yes I PvPed with 2 of my buddies, but it was only because we role played ninjas (black clothes and all). That type of freedom to get lost in the world cannot be found in today's assortment of mmos. Becasue it's all about some type of forced something. Force grouping, forced to watch your back or forced to fight or be farmed.

I hope you're not trying to argue that EVE is lacking in player-base? Which other game pretty much always has over 20,000 concurrent users, and can often push the 30 to 40,000 player mark?

Building your game "around" PvP is exactly how a sandbox game should work. However in saying that I'm not saying that you should force everyone to participate, or make it the only viable option or pursuit in the game, instead the developers need to consider PvP as an important and central aspect of the game, rather than 'tacking it on" later as an afterthought.

Link Realms

Asheron's Call (if you excuse the one FFA PvP server)

Asheron's Call back in 99. If the Darktide population was anything like what it was back then i'd still be playing!

Not a newbie, but will be resubbing shortly if you guys need any help from an experienced player.

It's probably a good idea to let people know what your corp is about; what kind of play you are going to be engaging in and so forth.

I'll contact you ingame, my name is Exell.

Originally posted by akathos

Hey there people... now this won't be your average winge session. This is me guinely giving an opinion and expressing my concerns on Guild Wars 2.

That concern is of course NC Soft, I have had so many problems with NC Soft. To start of with, NC Soft are appauling at customer support, and reports are quite literally everywhere over the internet about legit, legal players going for a break from Guild Wars/ NC Soft game and returning to find their account banned. My gaming buddy who had this problem, went for a break when he went travelling  I assumed his account was hacked and had become compromised, but he returned and his account had been blocked, with no response from 6 e-mails sent to NC Soft.

That thought stood untill I went for a break from guild wars myself,  I  admit i played guild wars for all of one month; on and off on odd days here and there and went for a break, I return a good 4-5 months later, with the fresh appetite to give this game a good play. However I forgot my character name so I sent an email to NC Soft; 1 week and 3 days later I got a reply asking for the product key used amungst other personal details. SO I took my game case out grabbed the card and sent them details, sure enough 4 days later got my char name, great I thought!!  WRONG I go to login using all correct details, only to find it says error: username cannot be found in our database (or something similar).

I message NC Soft regarding my account status, no reply. I send another ..no reply.... but they replied to my previous e-mails about my details...go figure hiding much?... Now Guild Wars 2 looks out right amazing so far but im scared half to death of getting this game, putting all my time into it, going for a short break to find all my time,money and effort wasted because NC Soft want more money...

Is anyone else sharing these concerns.. and please this is not a QQ session I want this game to be epic, but im worried that NC Soft is still the company publishing this one.

 I too was a returning player who couldn't remember my character name for the new logon security check. I e-mailed them all the necessary details and they replied within 12 hours.

All was well.

Would really love a beta key!

Will repost the extras to keep the chain alive!

phades_ac@hotmail.com

Thanks!

Originally posted by twrule

Originally posted by canibusclub

swg is pretty gloomy. When I did still have a sub for that game , I use to get very depressed just logging into it.

Lol - the horrors and atrocities SOE has committed on the mmo genre are far more heinous than any game could visually portray.

I'll second this!

Good luck to them I say!

While I agree with the OP saying that both LOTRO and AOC were dissapointing given the depth and richness of their intellectual property, I disagree with the parts that seem to be saying "be more wow-like."

Oh and Turbine can make great games! Just look at Asheron's Call and . . . . . well, Asheron's call!

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by vladakov

Both ingame and in real life, i disgust capitalism. 

How about murder?

As for real life - I hate capitalism, but a game is not real life. MMORPGs are all about killing people or monsters and taking their stuff.

 Like they used to say in Ancient Greece,  buying something, and then selling it for three-double, is theft.

Theft is theft. Taking someone else's property against their will.

Buying and reselling is intelligence.

 

BTW, ancient Greece had slavery. I am not about to take ethical lessons from slave owners.

Hope you don't live in the US then.

Interesting post.

It would certainly be a good way for the MMO industry to find out what kind of markets really do exist, and in what quantities. If, as you pointed out, they were able to test features such as perma-death, and certain types of FFA PVP without having to invest in the development of a whole game/engine we could be in for some interesting and groundbreaking releases.

Lets hope so anyway!

EVE. The sandbox rocks, the dev-team is one of the best around, and the expansions are many and free. Add to that the hugely player driven aspect of the game and you've got a game that will, in my opinion, outshine and outlast an item-shop co-op space-shooter any day.

Originally posted by Malickie

Originally posted by Edli

Originally posted by uquipu

 

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Originally posted by Shiperzz
Anyone who is under the impression that video games can't be art just hasn't played AoC. Seriously, play it in high quality and check out some of the armour and scenery. It really is a work of art. 

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I don't think they are talking about artwork when they say video games can't be art.

You can hang a picasso on a shack, that doesn't make the shack art.

 

So the creativity and imagination to create a painting is far more artsy than to create a scenery in 3d? Why a painting in the wall is called art but a landscape in 3d is not considered so?

Now this is a very, very good question actually. As each is very much art, yet two very distinctive styles of it. World creation in the 3D sense is as much a form of art as sculpting something from clay. As without an artistic vision you're not going to come up with much, you may have a basic shape or even a perfect human figure. The problem is it will be stiff and lifeless the expressionism is lost meaning the artform is lost.

It takes an artistic eye to create a visual representation of an object. Without an eye for it, there will be zero expression, without understanding what expressionism is you will not be creating pieces of art.

Firstly, I fail to see how someone who attempts to paint an object "without understanding what expressionism is", will be failing to produce art. Disregarding the fact that expressionism is a specific genre of painting, I will assume (hopefully not incorrectly) that you mean artistic expression. A painter or sculptor may represent an object without having any "eye" whatsoever for that specific thing. Expression enters in the form of the emotions, thoughts, beliefs and views that the artist holds towards the object and which are imbued in his work.

Secondly, I think it is beyond doubt that many, if not all visual/audible/fictional elements of video-games are, or at least can in some instances be considered art in their own right. What we might be forgetting, or misunderstanding, is the role of the viewer/participant, and their aesthetic experience. Although video-games, or at least certain aspects of them are likely to be considered art, does the viewer enagage them as such?

Is it a game first and art second?

Originally posted by Silkraven

Art as well as beauty are in the eye of the beholder. The guy may have a mmorpg screensaver, and not even realize it.

Attempting to "pin down" what constitutes art has proved to be an exhaustive undertaking. Currently, it seems the best that we can do is to identify certain elements, or criteria that should be present in art. Such a cluster definition, cannot decisively say that something "is" or "is not" art, but can help us understand and identify the elements and responses that exemplify some of the best and enduring art.

As for beauty being "in the eye of the beholder", evolutionary aesthetics argues that at least some of our aesthetics responses, concerning those objects which we find "beautiful" or "ugly" are hardwired, and the result of fitness adaptations.

While what we view as being "art" seems to be more or less subjective, there is a sense of objectivity when we talk about our aesthetic repsonses toward such objects.

Originally posted by Nifa

Originally posted by Phry

It sounds like a step in the right direction, but is it enough? much as i enjoy mmo's i wonder how many people spend far more time playing games, offline or online, than is really good for them, with the summer coming on quickly, and warmer weather - the incentive really should be for people to spend more time out of doors, not cooped up in a darkened room playing computer games, having said that, its really the parents job to ensure that their children are living a healthy lifestyle - presumably adults should know better about these things and not need to be reminded... though personally i would consider anyone who repeatedly spends 4 hours or more a day playing online games, is storing up trouble for themselves health wise. Have to wonder just how bad the situation is there though, if their worried that people arent getting enough sleep even because of online gaming!

I hope this is sarcasm?

There are some people in the world who may use a computer for gaming or other legitimate online activities (e-mails, forums, what have you) due to legitimate medical conditions that may prevent them from going outside to enjoy that warm spring and summer weather.  Should they be limited in their seasonal internet usage just because it's nice outside or because someone somewhere believes they may be "storing up trouble for themselves healthwise?"  Presumably, if they're in such a situation, they already have some health issues preventing them from enjoying that lovely weather anyway - is a few hours spent on the internet enjoying one of the things they can do if they are in this situation to begin with really going to make a difference - except maybe to worsen their already poor health by causing any number of conditions, including, but not limited to, depression?

It is my opinion that in a Western-style democracy (I'm not certain that South Korea necessarily qualifies), no government has the right to impinge upon the rights of its citizens in such a manner.  If the citizens wish to spend countless hours indoors and online, so long as they are not committing a crime by doing so (i.e. child pornography, child abuse or neglect, internet stalking, internet fraud, illegal downloads or pirating, engaging in other activities which are illegal or which impinge upon the rights of others), the government cannot and should not interfere by limiting bandwidth or anything else.  Online gaming certainly qualifies as a non-criminal activity in which the government should have no right to interfere.  If a consumer pays for a service such as internet service and an online gaming subscription service, how they choose to utilize the services they pay for, so long as how they choose to use that service is not criminal, is none of the government's business.

Pretty much this. A plausible step for them would have been to either limit the hours that gaming cafes can be open, or to make the said cafes enforce a "no underage gamers after midnight policy". That way nobody's rights are interfered with at home, nor is any family/personal internet connection.

Originally posted by Shadus

wow, they managed to repeat all the screw ups of asheron's call including dated graphics, spells that are trivial to dodge, and lousy clunky laggy combat.

Awesome.

Considering Asheron's Call had one of the best twitch-based PVP combat systems to grace any MMO, I would argue that the spells were no so trivial to dodge.

As for the graphics. Meh.

Ayan Baqar - Asheron's Call

Amamake - EVE Online

It's something CCP has had in the works for a long time now. It isn't currently in-game, and there has been no set date for when it will be.

If you serach on youtube you will find a couple of videos of what it may or may not end up looking like :D

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Boosthungry

HAHAHA I just wanna say I jumped on these forums to see what the latest pvp talk about this game was and this was the first thread I found.  Wow the first page is almost all pvp discussion threads.  PVP oriented players being 1% of the market my ass.  I agree with all the flamers on this forum, this game is going to fail.

 

     It amazes me how people can read .. but still are illiterate..    NO ONE said PvP makes up 1% of the market..   I think you need to reread the POST again and this time.. READ all the words and put them together..    There are over 20 million people estimated playing MMO's worldwide..and how many are subscribers to PvP (item loss) games?   lmaooooooo   NEXT..

 

If that is your argument, then you sir, are a retard.

Out of that 20 million we can discount the 6 or 7 million WOW players that just don't know any better for starters. Then we have to ask how many games, offering item loss pvp systems are actually on the market? Well of course we have EvE, but it's easy to see why some people wouldn't want to play, with a steep learning curve etc. So that leaves a large population of gamers that have come from games such as UO, Shadowbane and Asheron's Call (games which have now unfortunately either been hit with the nerf stick, or have dissappeared) who would LOVE a new game with item loss, yet have nothing available to them, apart from EvE.

Arguing along the lines of "why would any gaming company want to appeal to minority crowd" is also fairly stupid. Considering this is what CCP has done, and they are arguably one of the best companies in the MMO business today.

Ok I thought the OP was overreacting until I just read "no more piracy".

That was the only damn reason I was even considering playing! :(