Originally posted by Puremallace

Then you get to end game and realize it is all about 5mans instances and zerg vs zerg vs zerg. Nice post, but Rift was doing this as early as February of last year and got the video to prove it posted on youtube.

Rifts in RIFT were/are a gimmick, something put on top of a very familiar game in every single other aspect.

Take away the Rifts and what does RIFT have?

Level grind, quest hub, Trinity based combat, instanced PvP, mediocre crafting, end-game heroics/raiding etc. etc.

GW2 has the Heart quests which are like PQ's in WAR, and the DE's which are more advanced version of Rifts in RIFT - but NO quest hub grind underneath it all.

No trinity based combat, active/action mechanics, fully open/cooperative play style, end-game PvP from level 1 on, and dynamic content based on exploration (puzzles, hidden DE's/hearts, etc.)

Originally posted by evolver1972

Yes!  It was really special.  And since it's the fundamental premise of the game - various races having to band together to fight a greater threat - it shouldn't have been done any other way.  Other games may have varying degrees of this, or at least may not penalize you for helping someone, but none of them that I've seen have actually made you feel that you could trust your potential ally.  Why would I want to ally with someone who just tried to kill me and steal my stuff?  Or someone who saw me running for a resource and snagged it before me?

I read an article that very brilliantly said that in most MMOs it seems from the moment of character creation they are seperating players based on faction or race and forcing competition and a "hatred" of most of the people on your server before you even log in.

It really is amazing how much it changes things to not have factions and seperate players.

Look at two of the most "social" MMOs of all time with the best communities. See any trends?

LOTRO, FFXI....

Single player faction.

Originally posted by Kaneth

Originally posted by Vorthanion

I'm not terribly impressed.  The only class that felt fun to me was the Guardian.  The Ranger would be right up there with it if the game didn't have such a weak and pointless pet system.  The rest of the classes felt incredibly weak and squishy and some, like the Elementalist and Engineer, downright frustrating as hell.  It's really hard for me to even give the rest of the game a chance when the most basic and integral part of it tends to be annoying at best.  That's before I even have to deal with a combat system that doesn't really appeal to me in the first place.

After the first hour or so, I was really starting to hate the required circle / strafe combat.  I knew going in that this could be an issue for me, but it really does contrast my preference for old school MMO combat mechanics versus this new breed of console style MMO now dominating the market and I'm beginning to realize my preferred play style may be seeing it's last days in the genre.

I think alot of what you're frustrated about is just merely learning curve issues. I played the Elementalist (lv 10) and Engineer (lv 6) during beta weekend and had a blast, literally. You just have to be good at kiting if you're soloing, or learn the burst combos to take stuff down in a hurry with either class. I will say that I was able to stand in the back of a pack of players quite often and just blast away with the ele and engineer both.

Circle strafing seems to be required less, at least with the ele, if you control your targets with the various abilities you have. Attunement dancing will be a requirement to master the elementalist. Additionally, there are abilities that push you out of combat as well.

You might just prefer the old method of combat in mmos, or you may come to really enjoy it once you learn it.

This is an extremely valid point.

While the Guardian at low levels could stand and fight better than other professions, after level 7-8 or so I found myself getting just punished in melee range like crazy, so I had to re-learn my "usual" MMO conventions and really start using my skills to bounce in and out of combat and hop between targets so I was never in range of a mob while it was attacking.

It's great when you realize skills you can use as a distance closer can also be used as a distance gainer if you don't have a target selected and just use them to hop/teleport.

Very fun.

I just can't even think about going back to any other MMO after playing GW2 for both the awesome combat and the incredible "flow" of the PvE - feels so much like old school Trammel in UO to me - just wander and explore and fight stuff while getting rewarded for it. Love it.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Vorthanion

I found that circle strafe was far, far less effective than properly using your dodge + skills to "ping pong" a mob back and forth.

You didn't need to constantly kite, but instead just move in and out at the appropriate time based on their attack patterns.

That was playing melee of course, much more challenging and skill intensive.

Dodge and CC abilities on my Elementalist and Engineer were not enough, you had to constantly run away from mobs or die regularly.

I can imagine. Sounds like you may want to try another profession?

Also it greatly depends on your weapon and attunement/kit.

For example, as an Elementalist you have a lot more defense + control using either Water or Earth attunement.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Vorthanion

After the first hour or so, I was really starting to hate the required circle / strafe combat.  I knew going in that this could be an issue for me, but it really does contrast my preference for old school MMO combat mechanics versus this new breed of console style MMO now dominating the market and I'm beginning to realize my preferred play style may be seeing it's last days in the genre.

I'm sure you'll fine a game that has the devolution of combat mechanics you are looking for!

All this... trying is HARD! Right?

There is nothing difficult about GW2's combat, it's merely annoying, so whatever dude.

I found that circle strafe was far, far less effective than properly using your dodge + skills to "ping pong" a mob back and forth.

You didn't need to constantly kite, but instead just move in and out at the appropriate time based on their attack patterns.

That was playing melee of course, much more challenging and skill intensive.

I recall multiple occasions where I had "finished" whatever I was doing in a particular area, but I stayed to help others finish just because I wanted to be helpful and it was actually fun to play with total strangers.

For the first time since... well ever maybe I wasn't viewing other players as potential competition in PvE, but instead as potential allies.

Not UO, E&B, SWG, WOW, EQ2, FFXI, AOC, WAR, TR, RIFT, or TOR ever had this effect on me.

The fact that nothing you can do in the PvE side can negatively effect others is just... it's unique. In 12+ years of MMO gaming, it is truly unique.

I found myself following other people just to help them and to see if they knew about something or some place I didn't and just.. the spontaneous grouping...

Guy would pull too many mobs to handle, I'd help out by ripping one off of him or switching weapons and tossing a heal or buff their way.

One of us would go down and the other would come over and rez and/or help us Rally by killing our target first.

It was... truly special, and didn't just happen once or twice but ALL weekend.

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by SoulOfRaziel

Originally posted by Kuppa

1. My computer is very much weaker than yours and it ran very very well. Saying that, we at least know that it runs on a crappy pc. Of course by release it will run on higher end systems. They don't have a release day so saying a couple of months is speculaiton.

1. as Kuppa already said there might be something wrong with ur pc cause ur pc is WAY better than mine and i played GW2 with NO PROBLEM

I don't think there is something wrong with his pc. Its definately the game that needs work. But, its better to have a lowest common denominator working, like my pc, and then iron out optimizations for other PCs

Known issues with AMD cards last BWE.

I have a 6870 1GB GDDR5 and a 4.0ghz quad OC'd with high speed Kingston ram (8GB) on a SSD and the game ran like crap at anything over medium settings.

They haven't yet worked with Nvidia / AMD to really iron out the driver support for the engine yet.

Nvidia was still > AMD from all accounts, though the game was currently configured to hit CPU hard and not multi-core.

As well as zero Xfire/SLI support yet.

There are issues that will be corrected before launch.

I remember TOR beta it wouldn't even run at all until I downloaded the latest AMD driver package that had released 2 days before the beta started.

Originally posted by Novusod

Both TERA and GW2 combat is deeply rooted in the holy trinity which means ultimately both games still play a lot like WoW. You have to have tank + healer to do group content combined with some min/maxed DPS. This is New?? Where have we seen this before? It is like every other MMO game made in the last decade. A little dodging and aiming doesn't change much. Calling this action combat is the biggest joke ever. If you want real action combat then play Vindictus where there is no healers and no holy trinity.

Umm GW2 doesn't have the holy trinity and healers/tanks either, but you either already knew that or are simply ignoring it.

This topic needs a Poll.

Though it'll turn out like the other thread with a poll with GW2 the clear winner in the MMORPG.com communities eyes.

I just can't stand blatant lies, obvious ignorance, and a purely negative agenda.

See that a lot on these boards.

Like:

-GW2 is just another tab-target combat game, just like WoW

Umm no, it's not, stop lying. Yes it does have tab targetting and a skill bar, but so do a good 75% of MMOs out there and they are generally all quite different in the execution.

-WvW is just a big battleground

Technically it is but because it is semi-persistant is it REALLY "just another BG?" I don't think so and neither does anyone who looks at it objectively.

That kind of thing.

I have no problem with people who have rational, logical opinions and are able to express them without hyper-negativity and bashing.

But probably 4 times out of every 5 the "hater" posts are ill informed, illogical, and excessively negatively biased while the "fan boi" points 4 out of 5 times are much more detailed, objective, logical, and rational.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Wow GW2 had a population drop in beta?

We are really going to have a conversation about population in a game's beta?

Really?

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by BadSpock

Melee is a lot more difficult in GW2 but you do a lot more damage and it is so much more fun because of the difficulty.

Going ranged all the time is the easy way out. Yes, it needs some balancing but I never played all ranged in PvE or PvP last weekend.

I noticed it the most in WvWvW I think. Ranged standing back dropping AoEs and never getting touched, while melee were dead the minute they tried to get into the fray. Pulling out my Rifle seemed to work OK, but really as a warrior I don't wan't to use a Rifle, I want to cut people up !

That is very true, I will agree.

However that's kind of the nature of mass open world PvP, it's been that way always.

I think once people get more time in WvW the strategies will change, more people will use siege weapons instead of just mass zerging beating on gates and melee will have a lot more tactical use in WvW.

The few times in WvW I was in a smaller skirmish I found melee to be incredibly effective, I don't think the majority of people thought about weapon switches and just tried (unsucessfully) to kite me as they are more used to longer-duration CC mechanics.

I owned a fair number of folks all up close and personal like in the smaller skirmishes.

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by BadSpock

My favorite part is that by switching weapons the class plays entirely differently from one moment to the next.

And then once you get weapon swapping at 7 it's like playing 2 different classes at the same time, switching back and forth constantly based on tactical need and combat situational awareness.

Can you switch weapons in TERA?

Lol I'm being terrible.. I know...

You can swap weapons in FFXIV too and it changes your job completely! That turned out so well for them! Gamechanger... That being said, I play FFXIV and enjoy it =P Unfortunately all the weapon swapping does for melee is give us a reason to not... melee...

Melee is a lot more difficult in GW2 but you do a lot more damage and it is so much more fun because of the difficulty.

Going ranged all the time is the easy way out. Yes, it needs some balancing but I never played all ranged in PvE or PvP last weekend.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by BadSpock

I think the highlighed part you are actually talking about GW2.

If not, you really haven't played GW2 at all have you?

Class choice is EVERYTHING and the combat is more tactical, layered, and nuanced than any MMORPG I have ever played in 12+ years.

Agreed, at least each class I tried were very different to play from the rest. Usually all roles in the same trinity role are more or less the same.

My favorite part is that by switching weapons the class plays entirely differently from one moment to the next.

And then once you get weapon swapping at 7 it's like playing 2 different classes at the same time, switching back and forth constantly based on tactical need and combat situational awareness.

Can you switch weapons in TERA?

Lol I'm being terrible.. I know...

Originally posted by Jimmydean

I guess it's a difference in combat preference. Do you prefer to play only ranged / kite everything (GW2) or do you prefer to play based on the class you choose, your actions having consequences and having to think about them first (TERA). 

Like I said, I'll play both. I hope you fanbois don't ruin GW2 with your endless praise / can never be wrong attitude. If you honestly think Melee classes are OK in GW2 atm, then you are too far gone to be of any use in shaping the game.

I think the highlighed part you are actually talking about GW2.

If not, you really haven't played GW2 at all have you?

Class choice is EVERYTHING and the combat is more tactical, layered, and nuanced than any MMORPG I have ever played in 12+ years.

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by xposeidon

DId you play the game? Guild Wars 2 does not start hard at level 1, I say after level 8-10 it starts rising in difficulty, please dont make false assumptions.

The difficulty curve isn't nearly as steep though. GW2 End-game starts at level 1, remember fanboi? GW2 also has an advantage knowing that MMO players are already used to its tab target (WOW) style, or face-to-aim (AOC) style because it's been done before. Aiming as it is in TERA is much more foreign to the MMORPG crowd.

TERA has a skill bar - check

WASD movement - check

Mouse look aiming - check

Click attacks/blocks - check

Yep, totally foreign to the MMORPG crowd...

I died.. never in 30+ combined levels of multiple characters in TERA CBT/OBT.

I died.. all the goddamn time in GW2 BWE.

Yep, difficulty curve isn't nearly as steep...

Yea 30+ combined levels, none of those characters ever reaching far passed the starter Island. I'm amazed you didn't find it difficult! Difficulty curve has nothing to do with how difficult the game is at the beginning. And if you think GW2 isn't going to get tuned down at lower levels before release, you are delusional. 

Especially since the majority of "Difficulty" in GW2 atm stems from melee vs ranged being completely unbalanced.  Melee are useless at their job. Sure they can throw on a gun and be OK, but what is the point of playing melee then? This is especially true in the beloved WvWvW where AOE is king and melee stand back watching.

18 Lancer was off the starter online.

Even if you do find TERA fun, which I honestly hope you do, you cannot simply keep denying it is anything more than a traditional quest hub grind based Eastern MMO with basic Trinity based 2004 MMO combat whose ONLY difference is an aiming/dodging gimmick added on top of a standard skill-bar based system.

If you are OK with that, cool, glad you are having fun.

GW2 is entirely different. Yep, you have a skill bar, but it is nothing like the skill bar in any other game except for maybe The Chronicles of Spellborn.

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by xposeidon

DId you play the game? Guild Wars 2 does not start hard at level 1, I say after level 8-10 it starts rising in difficulty, please dont make false assumptions.

The difficulty curve isn't nearly as steep though. GW2 End-game starts at level 1, remember fanboi? GW2 also has an advantage knowing that MMO players are already used to its tab target (WOW) style, or face-to-aim (AOC) style because it's been done before. Aiming as it is in TERA is much more foreign to the MMORPG crowd.

TERA has a skill bar - check

WASD movement - check

Mouse look aiming - check

Click attacks/blocks - check

Yep, totally foreign to the MMORPG crowd...

I died.. never in 30+ combined levels of multiple characters in TERA CBT/OBT.

I died.. all the goddamn time in GW2 BWE.

Yep, difficulty curve isn't nearly as steep...

I obviously bad at games, you know, playing FPS since the mid 90's and MMOs since '99

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Jimmydean

So you are facing your character but not actually aiming... I can face my character in TERA towards a mob all day long, and if I don't aim the attack I'm still going to hit thin air. Facing does not equal Aiming, and that is why TERA is a TRUE Action MMORPG and GW2 is not.

If you miss a mob in TERA it's because you are the worst FPS player in existance.

Unless the monsters get smaller and faster as you level up, which I doubt as they all seem to get bigger and slower, you have to be REALLY bad to hit nothing but thin air in TERA.

If THAT is the definition of "TRUE Action MMORPG" than I am 100% glad GW2 is not a "TRUE Action MMORPG."

Case in point - in all 18 levels on my Lancer and up to 5-6 on every other class in the TERA betas I don't think I ever died once. Not once.

In GW2 I died a lot... a lot of dirt naps, and even more times was downed and had to Rally to survive and get back up.

So if combat difficulty = true action MMO combat, GW2 > TERA by a factor of about 30.

Oh man I'm glad you were able to explain exactly how TERA works in your entire 20 minutes of playtime! All 18 levels! The first few levels are to get you used to the new kind of combat. Throw a tab-target gamer into a fight with a BAM, and they are going to die without having any idea what happened. GW2 can start off hard because it never gets harder. Level 1 is what you see at level 80. While this is ok for some people, I prefer a game to get more challenging as my personal skill increases rather than stagnate. 

I wish I had only wasted 20 minutes of my life on this gimmick only Eastern grinder MMO, but sadly I played for hours over two weekend hoping it got better.

Apparently you haven't played GW2 either though... it's ok, ignorance is bliss!

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by Purgatus

Originally posted by Dreadstone

Tab targeting implies locking on a target.  Are you saying you don't lock on a target?  That you will damage the target with a non-AoE attack even if you haven't locked target on them?  Tera's combat is based on where you aim your reticle, not what target you locked on before attacking.  Is this the case in GW2?

If I have an enemy if front of me and I DO NOT have him targeted, ah la Tab-Targeting, and I hit my sword attack, I will hit and damage him. Does that answer your question?

So you are facing your character but not actually aiming... I can face my character in TERA towards a mob all day long, and if I don't aim the attack I'm still going to hit thin air. Facing does not equal Aiming, and that is why TERA is a TRUE Action MMORPG and GW2 is not.

If you miss a mob in TERA it's because you are the worst FPS player in existance.

Unless the monsters get smaller and faster as you level up, which I doubt as they all seem to get bigger and slower, you have to be REALLY bad to hit nothing but thin air in TERA.

If THAT is the definition of "TRUE Action MMORPG" than I am 100% glad GW2 is not a "TRUE Action MMORPG."

Case in point - in all 18 levels on my Lancer and up to 5-6 on every other class in the TERA betas I don't think I ever died once. Not once.

In GW2 I died a lot... a lot of dirt naps, and even more times was downed and had to Rally to survive and get back up.

So if combat difficulty = true action MMO combat, GW2 > TERA by a factor of about 30.

Originally posted by Purgatus

Originally posted by JediSeer

*snip*

I can get behind the point of your post. Truely. But.....

I only played Tera in beta, as a warrior and only to level 16. I read later that its not until 20 that the game opens up. In my experience Tera is ABSOLTUTLY a grind. I have trouble understanding how rational people can keep saying its not so.

All you do is Kill X of Y quests. And they are not even killing new and different creatures. Its the same ones over and over again. After 20 when BAM's and Duneons become available, I don't know how much this is true.

But to keep calling people out for saying this is absurd.

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Purgatus here.

I only got to 18 or so on a Lancer in TERA CBT and I leveled by doing the exact same kill/collect/fed-ex quest hub hopping over and over and over and over which is a terrible grind to me.

Also as a Lancer every.single.fight felt exactly the same. Same skills, same rotation, sometimes would have to block more than other times, but that was about it.